Peak Ben Wallace, how good would he be today?

[justinian]

How well would the peak Ben Wallace fare in today's nba?

[CousinOfDeath]

He'd be helped off to the point where he'd drag down his team's offense enough to nullify his defensive impact.

[justinian]

He'd be helped off to the point where he'd drag down his team's offense enough to nullify his defensive impact.

so he will be as good as DeAndre?

[tsherkin]

I don't think he would be that big an offensive suck, to be honest. I suspect he'd be nearly as good as he was in his own day, perhaps exactly the same.

[RSCD3_]

I don't think he would be that big an offensive suck, to be honest. I suspect he'd be nearly as good as he was in his own day, perhaps exactly the same.

I feel like hed be used better, his FG% was low because of him wanting to create his own offense. If a coach told him to forget about that and play the Chandler role and he took it to heart, he would be more efficient. The 2004 Pistons were kind of autonomous in some sorts.

The same fiercely independent " go to work " attitude that allowed them to play great defense and be effective also probably limited them as a group. I was reading this artical and inside it there's an anecdote about the team interacting with Larry Brown during and after game 2.

http://pistonpowered.com/2012/12/13/ben-wallace-and-chauncey-billups-told-off-larry-brow-after-game-2-of-the-2004-finals/

[D.Brasco]

He'd be helped off to the point where he'd drag down his team's offense enough to nullify his defensive impact.

so he will be as good as DeAndre?

Not that Deandre is an offensive beast because of course he's not, but this is a guy who just put up 11.5 ppg on 71% fg. Ben Wallace's scoring peaked at 9.7 ppg on 45% fg.

Granted Wallace is a better defensive player.

[kurtis48239]

Honestly,probably the best center in the league,at his peak,he was 1st in rebounding,shot blocking,and won defensive player of the year,as well named to the All-Defensive First Team and the All-NBA Third Team,which he would acheive the following year.Him and Dikembe Mutombo share the record for 4 defensive player of the year awards.He also anchored one of the best defenses in league history.Even if he wasant great on the offensive end,his defense alone is enough to make him the best center in the league at his peak today,the guy was a BEAST,constantly gave shaq fits,centers like him dont come along often.The guy was doing things that only 7 foot 250-300 pound centers could do and literaly had the strength of them as well.Defense wins championships,

Like rscd3 said,if he stuck to put backs and tip ins and was looked for more regulary for ops,his offense would be much higher.

[Winsome Gerbil]

Honestly,probably the best center in the league,at his peak,he was 1st in rebounding,shot blocking,and won defensive player of the year,as well named to the All-Defensive First Team and the All-NBA Third Team,which he would acheive the following year.Him and Dikembe Mutombo share the record for 4 defensive player of the year awards.He also anchored one of the best defenses in league history.Even if he wasant great on the offensive end,his defense alone is enough to make him the best center in the league at his peak today,the guy was a BEAST,constantly gave shaq fits,centers like him dont come along often.The guy was doing things that only 7 foot 250-300 pound centers could do and literaly had the strength of them as well.Defense wins championships,

Like rscd3 said,if he stuck to put backs and tip ins and was looked for more regulary for ops,his offense would be much higher.

Wallace was a fun player, but even in his peakiest peak year he avearged 6.9pts to go with the 15.4reb 1.6ast 1.4stl 3.2blk. That's good stuff, but it very much would have put him in rich man's DeAndre Jordan (11.5pts 15.0reb 0.7ast 1.0stl 2.2blk) territory, not in Boogie Top 10 territory.

He was very clearly a super roleplayer with almost all his contributions coming on one end of the court, and in order for him to be fully useful he needed a lot of talented teammates on the other end to complete the package.

As for today, I have no reason why he'd be less effective defensively 10 years later. Stretch 4s...are not as spiffy as they have been made out, and there are very few stretch 5s, at least credible ones. And Wallace actually started out as a guard believe it or not. he would probably have a much better chance of playing Pero Antic on the perimeter than guys who spent their whole careers in the middle.

The issue would be the offense, where the modern defensive specialist centers have still needed to have the Chandler/Jordan/Drummond ability to slip to the rim for oops and dunks to keep defenses honest. But Ben was not even that. He legitimately was ignore him ineffective on offense. I think his biggest weapon would be his offensive rebounding, as in you ignore him and he'll kill you on the boards.

[tmorgan]

Exactly. You can't really ignore Ben Wallace on offense even though he's completely ineffective 5 feet from the hoop, because he'd get 10 offensive rebounds a game.

Ben would be just as good today. DPOY, league leading rebounder, bad on offense but actually a pretty solid passer, and a guy on the squad that carries a sign that says "don't mess with my teammates or I'll bury you".

By the way, he could and did catch oops for dunks. It wasn't a huge portion of the Pistons perimeter-oriented offense, but he'd usually get one a game on cuts.

[kurtis48239]

You also have to remember he was doing all of that while going up agaisnt guys like duncan,shaq,yao,etc while they were in there primes and anchored that det team to a championship and an almost repeat.Looking at the centers of today,I think wallace is in talks for top 2 in the league.His defense and intensity on that end was that scary.

[Witzig-Okashi]

Honestly,probably the best center in the league,at his peak,he was 1st in rebounding,shot blocking,and won defensive player of the year,as well named to the All-Defensive First Team and the All-NBA Third Team,which he would acheive the following year.Him and Dikembe Mutombo share the record for 4 defensive player of the year awards.He also anchored one of the best defenses in league history.Even if he wasant great on the offensive end,his defense alone is enough to make him the best center in the league at his peak today,the guy was a BEAST,constantly gave shaq fits,centers like him dont come along often.The guy was doing things that only 7 foot 250-300 pound centers could do and literaly had the strength of them as well.Defense wins championships,

Like rscd3 said,if he stuck to put backs and tip ins and was looked for more regulary for ops,his offense would be much higher.

Wallace was a fun player, but even in his peakiest peak year he avearged 6.9pts to go with the 15.4reb 1.6ast 1.4stl 3.2blk. That's good stuff, but it very much would have put him in rich man's DeAndre Jordan (11.5pts 15.0reb 0.7ast 1.0stl 2.2blk) territory, not in Boogie Top 10 territory.

He was very clearly a super roleplayer with almost all his contributions coming on one end of the court, and in order for him to be fully useful he needed a lot of talented teammates on the other end to complete the package.

As for today, I have no reason why he'd be less effective defensively 10 years later. Stretch 4s...are not as spiffy as they have been made out, and there are very few stretch 5s, at least credible ones. And Wallace actually started out as a guard believe it or not. he would probably have a much better chance of playing Pero Antic on the perimeter than guys who spent their whole careers in the middle.

The issue would be the offense, where the modern defensive specialist centers have still needed to have the Chandler/Jordan/Drummond ability to slip to the rim for oops and dunks to keep defenses honest. But Ben was not even that. He legitimately was ignore him ineffective on offense. I think his biggest weapon would be his offensive rebounding, as in you ignore him and he'll kill you on the boards.

I think calling him a rich man's DeAndre Jordan is a misnomer. Especially considering that Big Ben's specialty (team defense) is among Jordan's weakest attributes as a defender. I generally don't like the term role-player used for him (or guys like Deke, too), because it reveals the offensive bias in terms of what a superstar is. If Bill Russell can be considered arguably the best player in league history (at least top 3-5) due to his defensive impact, than guys who are a tier below should be regarded as superstars on the defensive end.

On offense, though I can agree his impact can be negated to an extent due to being as bad of a free throw shooter as Jordan. I think he can be a lesser version of a Tyson or DeAndre on offense if placed in the right situation, but I personally wonder how that would work out meshing with his team defense. I suppose it wouldn't be took bad considering Tyson did okay in New York.

I won't say that he'll be the best center in the league, or definitively top 10, (I won't go as far to say that he would be better than Cousins), but if utilized properly I see no reason that he couldn't have top 20 player in the league impact, at least.

[Massamba]

He is the only center that ever made a good job guarding a dominant Shaquile O'neal. I think he could be DPOY every year. He would be an all star for his defense.
The lack of offensive skills or easy dunks/alley oops ( ala Deandre Jordan) could be an issue on a bad offensive team. For example on the warriors he would be the X factor for the title. On the Bulls or Hawks he would be handicaping in playoffs.
So, good enough to be an all star, but he has to be in the right place at the right time or could be a role player.

[cpower]

Honestly,probably the best center in the league,at his peak,he was 1st in rebounding,shot blocking,and won defensive player of the year,as well named to the All-Defensive First Team and the All-NBA Third Team,which he would acheive the following year.Him and Dikembe Mutombo share the record for 4 defensive player of the year awards.He also anchored one of the best defenses in league history.Even if he wasant great on the offensive end,his defense alone is enough to make him the best center in the league at his peak today,the guy was a BEAST,constantly gave shaq fits,centers like him dont come along often.The guy was doing things that only 7 foot 250-300 pound centers could do and literaly had the strength of them as well.Defense wins championships,

Like rscd3 said,if he stuck to put backs and tip ins and was looked for more regulary for ops,his offense would be much higher.

Wallace was a fun player, but even in his peakiest peak year he avearged 6.9pts to go with the 15.4reb 1.6ast 1.4stl 3.2blk. That's good stuff, but it very much would have put him in rich man's DeAndre Jordan (11.5pts 15.0reb 0.7ast 1.0stl 2.2blk) territory, not in Boogie Top 10 territory.

He was very clearly a super roleplayer with almost all his contributions coming on one end of the court, and in order for him to be fully useful he needed a lot of talented teammates on the other end to complete the package.

As for today, I have no reason why he'd be less effective defensively 10 years later. Stretch 4s...are not as spiffy as they have been made out, and there are very few stretch 5s, at least credible ones. And Wallace actually started out as a guard believe it or not. he would probably have a much better chance of playing Pero Antic on the perimeter than guys who spent their whole careers in the middle.

The issue would be the offense, where the modern defensive specialist centers have still needed to have the Chandler/Jordan/Drummond ability to slip to the rim for oops and dunks to keep defenses honest. But Ben was not even that. He legitimately was ignore him ineffective on offense. I think his biggest weapon would be his offensive rebounding, as in you ignore him and he'll kill you on the boards.

so the second best player on a championship team is a roleplayer ? was Kobe a roleplayer ?

[theonlyclutch]

You also have to remember he was doing all of that while going up agaisnt guys like duncan,shaq,yao,etc while they were in there primes and anchored that det team to a championship and an almost repeat.Looking at the centers of today,I think wallace is in talks for top 2 in the league.His defense and intensity on that end was that scary.

I wouldn't be so sure in attributing the majority of the Piston's defensive successes to him, looking at how the Pistons acheived their defensive success, they were always very effective at defending the perimeter, giving up little looks outside, (and making them tough looks as well) with or without Big Ben in the paint, something that Ben helped out alot with is that he was very good at not fouling, with the Pistons generally giving up very little FTs when he was there.

[Tim_Hardawayy]

Wallace thrived on one of the weakest eras for centers in modern league history, his greatest peers included past his prime Shaq, the always overrated JO, Tim Duncan (who preferred to be called a 4), and I guess Big Z? That's all I can think of really for notables. Technically Amare was listed as a center then too, so there's that.

In addition, he played for a really great team that had no definitive face (Billups not quite talented enough and was somewhat maligned earlier in his career, Rasheed also a notch down from superstar talent and had his own image issues, Tayshaun and Rip far too quiet) so he got far more publicity than if he would have been on an average team (say he never gets traded from the Magic), or a great team with a typical superstar.

What I'm getting at is, he's one of those guys I've always felt gets vastly overrated compared to what he actually produced. Which was really good defensive impact and rebounding, but nothing else really. I've seen people put him on the same level as Dikembe Mutombo and I have to shake my head. The same Dikembe who was everything Ben was defensively, and an actual factor on offense. Ben's offense ranges from bad to atrocious, he had absolutely no skill with a basketball in his hands in terms of post moves. He could make nice catches for oops and shoot it a little bit (and I mean like, better at a 14 foot jumper than Shaq, maybe), that was it. The only reason his offense was better than a Joel Anthony was he didn't have stone hands, but I've seen both try to score in isolation and they are equally terrible.

So, TL:DR;

Top 5-10 center today, definitely not #1, Boogie is in another stratosphere compared to a player like Ben. Overall, he might crack being a top 40 player, its hard to say.

[Winsome Gerbil]

Honestly,probably the best center in the league,at his peak,he was 1st in rebounding,shot blocking,and won defensive player of the year,as well named to the All-Defensive First Team and the All-NBA Third Team,which he would acheive the following year.Him and Dikembe Mutombo share the record for 4 defensive player of the year awards.He also anchored one of the best defenses in league history.Even if he wasant great on the offensive end,his defense alone is enough to make him the best center in the league at his peak today,the guy was a BEAST,constantly gave shaq fits,centers like him dont come along often.The guy was doing things that only 7 foot 250-300 pound centers could do and literaly had the strength of them as well.Defense wins championships,

Like rscd3 said,if he stuck to put backs and tip ins and was looked for more regulary for ops,his offense would be much higher.

Wallace was a fun player, but even in his peakiest peak year he avearged 6.9pts to go with the 15.4reb 1.6ast 1.4stl 3.2blk. That's good stuff, but it very much would have put him in rich man's DeAndre Jordan (11.5pts 15.0reb 0.7ast 1.0stl 2.2blk) territory, not in Boogie Top 10 territory.

He was very clearly a super roleplayer with almost all his contributions coming on one end of the court, and in order for him to be fully useful he needed a lot of talented teammates on the other end to complete the package.

As for today, I have no reason why he'd be less effective defensively 10 years later. Stretch 4s...are not as spiffy as they have been made out, and there are very few stretch 5s, at least credible ones. And Wallace actually started out as a guard believe it or not. he would probably have a much better chance of playing Pero Antic on the perimeter than guys who spent their whole careers in the middle.

The issue would be the offense, where the modern defensive specialist centers have still needed to have the Chandler/Jordan/Drummond ability to slip to the rim for oops and dunks to keep defenses honest. But Ben was not even that. He legitimately was ignore him ineffective on offense. I think his biggest weapon would be his offensive rebounding, as in you ignore him and he'll kill you on the boards.

so the second best player on a championship team is a roleplayer ? was Kobe a roleplayer ?

No, that take isn't ridiculous or anything.

1) a guy who cannot score or contribute on the offensive end at all is, in fact, a roleplayer

2) those Pistons were a 5 man collective like the Hawks. Is Horford as good as Westbrook for being the #2 for the Hawks? See how that sounds?

3) if the limitations of an all offensive player who plays no defense are recognized, then the limitations of the exact opposite must be realized too. There are, as they say, two ends to the court. And Ben was the ultimate roleplayer on one end. Bismack Biyombo on the other. I think the person who mentioned that he would be a championship x-factor on the Warriors, but problematic for teams who already can't score had it right. He would be DPOY or close every year, but all his impact was on one end of the court.

[LLJ]

On every championship team, even today, there's always one guy in the starting lineup who generally can't or isn't relied on to score. Ben made up for this by being a monster on defense though.

I think he'd be the same. 2004 wasn't really that long ago, people acting like it was the 1960s. The game has changed some since, but people are way too willing to throw everything before 2009 under the bus. Having a mobile big men who can defend and rebound is still the most important thing you want out of a front court player today.

[PhillySixers22]

Wallace was a fun player, but even in his peakiest peak year he avearged 6.9pts to go with the 15.4reb 1.6ast 1.4stl 3.2blk. That's good stuff, but it very much would have put him in rich man's DeAndre Jordan (11.5pts 15.0reb 0.7ast 1.0stl 2.2blk) territory, not in Boogie Top 10 territory.

He was very clearly a super roleplayer with almost all his contributions coming on one end of the court, and in order for him to be fully useful he needed a lot of talented teammates on the other end to complete the package.

As for today, I have no reason why he'd be less effective defensively 10 years later. Stretch 4s...are not as spiffy as they have been made out, and there are very few stretch 5s, at least credible ones. And Wallace actually started out as a guard believe it or not. he would probably have a much better chance of playing Pero Antic on the perimeter than guys who spent their whole careers in the middle.

The issue would be the offense, where the modern defensive specialist centers have still needed to have the Chandler/Jordan/Drummond ability to slip to the rim for oops and dunks to keep defenses honest. But Ben was not even that. He legitimately was ignore him ineffective on offense. I think his biggest weapon would be his offensive rebounding, as in you ignore him and he'll kill you on the boards.

so the second best player on a championship team is a roleplayer ? was Kobe a roleplayer ?

No, that take isn't ridiculous or anything.

1) a guy who cannot score or contribute on the offensive end at all is, in fact, a roleplayer

2) those Pistons were a 5 man collective like the Hawks. Is Horford as good as Westbrook for being the #2 for the Hawks? See how that sounds?

3) if the limitations of an all offensive player who plays no defense are recognized, then the limitations of the exact opposite must be realized too. There are, as they say, two ends to the court. And Ben was the ultimate roleplayer on one end. Bismack Biyombo on the other. I think the person who mentioned that he would be a championship x-factor on the Warriors, but problematic for teams who already can't score had it right. He would be DPOY or close every year, but all his impact was on one end of the court.

Not to nitpick because big picture I agree with you, but calling Ben a role-player because he has little to no offensive impact could be flipped and used to say Harden was a role player since before this season he had little to no impact defensively. I would consider Wallace probably the third best center behind Cousins and Gasol, possibly fourth behind Horford.

[Winsome Gerbil]

so the second best player on a championship team is a roleplayer ? was Kobe a roleplayer ?

No, that take isn't ridiculous or anything.

1) a guy who cannot score or contribute on the offensive end at all is, in fact, a roleplayer

2) those Pistons were a 5 man collective like the Hawks. Is Horford as good as Westbrook for being the #2 for the Hawks? See how that sounds?

3) if the limitations of an all offensive player who plays no defense are recognized, then the limitations of the exact opposite must be realized too. There are, as they say, two ends to the court. And Ben was the ultimate roleplayer on one end. Bismack Biyombo on the other. I think the person who mentioned that he would be a championship x-factor on the Warriors, but problematic for teams who already can't score had it right. He would be DPOY or close every year, but all his impact was on one end of the court.

Not to nitpick because big picture I agree with you, but calling Ben a role-player because he has little to no offensive impact could be flipped and used to say Harden was a role player since before this season he had little to no impact defensively. I would consider Wallace probably the third best center behind Cousins and Gasol, possibly fourth behind Horford.

I don't really disagree with Ben's rough placement amongst centers, because there is, or have been so few good ones of late. Most of the top guys are roleplayerish. I tried last night to start a thread on what I viewed as the four #2-#5 centers in Gasol, Howard, Duncan and DeAndre...but nobody responded. But even there, but the time you hit DeAndre, you've very much entered guys in Ben's general class, and without Ben's defensive nastiness. So he'd very much be in that discussion for me, and I'd take him 10/10 times at C over Horford who is a PF.