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If you could take any five Suns in history on one team, who would you take?

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Re: If you could take any five Suns in history on one team, who would you take? 

Post#21 » by GMATCallahan » Sat May 16, 2015 4:40 pm

bwgood77 wrote:That's a good point. As much as I love having a bunch of good long range shooters, my lineup wouldn't really help with that. I suppose if I had to have KJ, I should probably go with Hornacek or JJ at the 2. Another problem with these lineups might be rim protection. But I don't know that we really have anyone good enough to throw in for that. Alvan Adams was only 6'9 and not a great shot blocker. Great passer though.

I was just looking at Adam's career, and it's pretty amazing his best year was his rookie year. He had a PER of 21.7 as a rookie. That's crazy good. Just for comparison purposes I also pulled up Anthony Davis' PER as a rookie. Also 21.7. LeBron 18.3 KJ's first year as a starter (2nd year) 20.5

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... sal01.html


PER is a fallacious metric for many reasons (not the least of which is that it misapplies team pace factors to individual performances, falsely creating a linear relationship where an inverted relationship is more likely), but Alvan Adams indeed may have been the best center in team history.

He was indeed a little undersized, but keep in mind that heights were less likely to be exaggerated in those days (Adams entered the NBA in 1975). In more recent times, for instance, consider that Mark West was listed at 6'10" yet actually 6'9", Oliver Miller was listed at 6'9" yet actually 6'7", and Wayman Tisdale was listed at 6'9" yet actually 6'7".
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Re: If you could take any five Suns in history on one team, who would you take? 

Post#22 » by GMATCallahan » Sat May 16, 2015 4:46 pm

irish22022 wrote:Guess I'm the only one who remembers how frustrating stat was as a center.

This is fun to think about, but if you think too much it gets frustrating. Barkley wouldn't be as successful at 4 in this NBA. Do we get players in their prime or how they were on the suns?

Prime players for current NBA

Kidd
Joe Johnson
Barkley
Frye
Shaq

Yes. I put Frye in that lineup. He and Barkley would be so interchangeable though it'd be impossible for every run down the floor. Hill is likely the best player in prime that was on the suns ever, but in this particular lineup, we'd need a stretch player. Hill and shaq on a team doesn't make a lot of sense to me.


Barkley would not be as successful as a power forward in today's NBA? Why not?
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Re: If you could take any five Suns in history on one team, who would you take? 

Post#23 » by LukasBMW » Sat May 16, 2015 6:30 pm

Replace KJ with Nash on the 93 team and we have a ring.

Replace Amare with Barkley on any 04-09 team and we have a ring.


I wish I could have seen a Nash/Barkley lineup. That would have been SICK!


PG 04-05 Nash
SG 92-93 Majerle
SF 05-06 Marion
PF 92-93 Barkley
C 04-05 Amare

I'm tempted to replace Amare with semi-retired Shaq because 85 year old shaq would do a better job on defense. But 04-05 Amare was a beast on the offensive end. It was before his injury, so he got all his points of power moves to the rim rather then his 17 foot jumpers that he settled for post injury.
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Re: If you could take any five Suns in history on one team, who would you take? 

Post#24 » by GMATCallahan » Sat May 16, 2015 9:06 pm

I think I would take KJ, Davis, Marion, Barkley and Amare.

It's a tough decision for me because half of me wants to leave Barkley out. He and KJ didn't have good chemisty....him and Nash wouldn't have either. KJ ran the perfect offense but when Barkley showed up, he stopped the offense, and he would have done the same with Nash, so chemistry in this question is important.

When KJ and Barkley did so well it was almost like two individual players....if they had great chemistry they would have been unstoppable. If they would have anything close to the Nash/Amare relationship, they would have won championships...zero doubt in my mind.

KJ was so much better in his prime than most people think.


Barkley and K.J. possessed good chemistry for the most part, but as you indicated, Sir Charles was such an anti-flow player that he could never fully mesh with any other genuine star (the same situation emerged in Houston where he played with Hakeem Olajuwon, Clyde Drexler, and later Scottie Pippen) or any system. He was a very self-indulgent player, and in his view, everything around him ultimately proved subservient to his self-indulgences: holding the ball, slowly dribbling in a limited radius, playing "hero ball" even when injured or drained, attempting ill-advised threes off the dribble, and demanding the ball at the expense of the plays called by the coach (to say nothing of his self-indulgences on the other end of the court or away from game-time). As Cotton Fitzsimmons stated after retaking the coaching reigns in 1996, "The worst thing we can do is to throw the ball to Charles, then stand and watch him decide what to do. Kevin breaks the defense down and gets more people involved." Thus one of Fitzsimmons' in-game mantras became "Get the ball to Kevin!" In Game Two of the 1996 Western Conference First Round, K.J. controlled the offense through the first three quarters, running the pick-and-roll/pop to perfection (even with only one true perimeter shooter on the floor and less than optimal spatial concepts, sometimes allowing the Spurs to send two help defenders to the pick-and-roll and get away with a one-on-three defense on the weak-side) and conducted the overall offense about as well as anyone in history could have conducted it, passing for 16 assists through three quarters. (And he should have received credit for at least 17 and possibly 18 assists, but the San Antonio official scorer was very stingy, at least with the visiting point guard.) Barkley remained within the flow of the overall offense, with Bill Walton on NBC talking about the "special relationship" brewing between him and K.J. Then in the fourth quarter, Barkley started dominating the ball in the post; K.J. did not record another assist the rest of the game. Although Johnson scored 6 points in the fourth quarter (2-4 FG, 2-2 FT, with all his points coming late in the clutch), the Suns only scored 21 in the period after scoring at least 25 in each of the first three quarters; Phoenix fell by five points, 110-105.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199604280SAS.html

In fairness, Barkley was far, far, far more skilled and capable than Amar'e Stoudemire. His ball-handing, passing, post-up game, "iso" capabilities, and ability to create shots for himself and teammates were all galaxies beyond Stoudemire. A team could run an efficient offense through Barkley, which one never could have said about Stoudemire. Indeed, in my opinion, Barkley constituted the most talented true forward in NBA history. (LeBron James, in my view, is more of a hybrid.)

But as Phil Jackson once told the Chicago Tribune about Barkley while he was still in Philadelphia, Sir Charles was "a great, great player. Maybe unstoppable. But he's got no discipline, none. You can't win with a player like that." In Phoenix, Barkley proved that when surrounded by major talent and mature players, you could win a lot of regular season games with him. (Of course, in the four years before Barkley arrived, the Suns constituted the only NBA franchise to win at least 53 regular season games each year, anyway.) And if matters broke correctly, you could even override the erratic nature of his postseason performance and reach the NBA Finals—once. But as the subsequent seasons proved, you could not consistently win in the playoffs against elite competition with Barkley, in large part due to his lack of discipline (on and off the court) and his willingness to basically throw away possessions in order to satisfy his self-indulgent tendencies.

Barkley's ball-stopping style could be problematic in the playoffs because it created predictability and gave the defense greater time to set itself, read what was happening, anticipate, and make adjustments. Indeed, Michael Jordan and Hakeem Olajuwon would make their moves quickly, forcing the defense to respond in hurried or belated fashion or else break down. That said, the major reason why the Suns did not win a championship with Barkley was not offense, but defense. After all, in Barkley's first three seasons in Phoenix, the Suns ranked first, first, and third, respectively, in Offensive Rating (points scored per possession), despite many games missed due to injury. Even in Sir Charles' fourth and final season in Phoenix, '95-'96, the Suns still ranked seventh in Offensive Rating despite only possessing one real three-point shooter or natural off-ball perimeter shooter (a second-year Wesley Person) on the entire roster and despite Barkley and K.J. combining to miss 35 games while Danny Manning missed 49.

Rather, the principal reason why the Suns did not win a championship with Barkley was their defense, which can be explained by the following statistics. In '91-'92, their last season before Barkley arrived, Phoenix finished eighth overall in Defensive Rating (points allowed per possession), after finishing eighth in '90-'91, sixth in '89-'90, and fifth in '88-'89. By Barkley's fourth and final year in Phoenix, '95-'96, the Suns had plummeted to twenty-third (out of twenty-nine teams) in Defensive Rating. In fact, in each of his last three seasons in Phoenix, the Suns ranked dead-last among the sixteen playoff teams (that's right, sixteenth out of sixteen for three straight years) in Defensive Rating. Seriously, Phoenix did not possess a sound championship formula in those years, not when you are annually the worst defensive team in the playoffs. The reason why the Suns reached the NBA Finals in 1993 was because they actually ranked ninth overall (out of twenty-seven teams) in Defensive Rating that season (even though all their forwards were defensive liabilities), with K.J. constituting arguably the best defensive point guard in the game that year—again with little recognition except from people who actually go back and study the film, such as that of Game Seven of the Western Conference Finals.

It’s a virtuoso performance, but moreso on the defensive side. Johnson is spying constantly like a safety let off the called-play chain. The Sonics thrice try and force the break and Johnson cuts off the outlet pass.

http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/07/10/pbts-retroball-suns-sonics-93-and-the-night-barkley-wouldnt-lose/

But over the course of the Barkley years, the team's defensive performance declined dramatically, largely (although not entirely) due to Barkley himself. Primarily because of a lack of effort and conditioning, he proved terrible defensively in every aspect most of the time. He compensated to some extent with his defensive rebounding, but the team's overall defensive numbers speak for themselves. Just as tellingly, in '97-'98, the Suns' second season after trading Barkley, Phoenix finished sixth overall in Defensive Rating and won 56 games.

If I were constructing a lineup from Phoenix history to compete for a championship, I frankly would not be that interested in either Barkley or Stoudemire: ball-stoppers who do not play defense do not win championships. A forward tandem that would intrigue me, conversely, would be Shawn Marion and Larry Nance: two extremely athletic, versatile forwards who could finish above the rim, rebound, and defend on a high level. I would be open to different options at guard and center, but I guess that I would go with Kevin Johnson and Jeff Hornacek at guard and Alvan Adams at center. I would be open to considering some others at center (including Danny Manning as an undersized center, as Manning may have been the Suns' best all-around big man ever between ACL reconstructions and proved about as tall as Adams), and I would be open to considering a bigger, more physical shooting guard, such as Dan Majerle or Joe Johnson, for defensive purposes. I would also be willing to think about playing K.J. and Steve Nash together in a flexible read-and-react/drive-and-kick offense similar to what San Antonio presently employs.

Another option would be to play Kevin Johnson and Jason Kidd together at guard with a dangerous three-point shooter—Joe Johnson, perhaps—at small forward to create more floor spacing. In the last 43 regular season games that K.J. and Kidd played together where K.J. played at least 30 minutes, the Suns went 35-8 (.814). Then take Nance or Marion at power forward and Adams or Manning at center.

Of course, I have not even mentioned Tom Chambers and Walter Davis, two Ring of Honor members, not to mention two other Ring of Honor members in Connie Hawkins and Paul Westphal. Chambers possessed the kind of chemistry with K.J. that Stoudemire did with Nash, and he could match-up at all three front-court spots, although he did not play especially good defense at any of them.
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Re: If you could take any five Suns in history on one team, who would you take? 

Post#25 » by GMATCallahan » Sat May 16, 2015 10:39 pm

LukasBMW wrote:Replace KJ with Nash on the 93 team and we have a ring.

Replace Amare with Barkley on any 04-09 team and we have a ring.



I wish I could have seen a Nash/Barkley lineup. That would have been SICK!


PG 04-05 Nash
SG 92-93 Majerle
SF 05-06 Marion
PF 92-93 Barkley
C 04-05 Amare

I'm tempted to replace Amare with semi-retired Shaq because 85 year old shaq would do a better job on defense. But 04-05 Amare was a beast on the offensive end. It was before his injury, so he got all his points of power moves to the rim rather then his 17 foot jumpers that he settled for post injury.


While I can appreciate people's whimsical fantasies, neither statement possesses any basis in reality or reflects an understanding of the game. The 1993 team would have been worse with Nash instead of K.J. First, playing with Barkley would have turned Nash more into the player that you saw with Kobe Bryant on the Lakers in '12-'13. A younger, healthier Nash would of course have been somewhat better, but as with the Lakers, Nash on Barkley's 1993 Suns would have been spending a lot of time off the basketball, spacing the floor and shooting spot-up jumpers. And to be sure, Nash's three-point shooting would have complemented Barkley effectively in a classic inside-outside attack, but Phoenix's offense also would have been less versatile—at least in the half-court. K.J. was better than Nash at penetrating on quick notice, meaning without much time or space, which is what you often needed in order to be an effective penetrator and creator while playing with Barkley (not to mention a defensive center such as Mark West, who could not score outside of eight feet and who clogged the lane). Nash needed more time and space, which is what D'Antoni's offensive system (not to mention the contemporary rules) provided him—explaining why Nash's playoff field goal percentage on two-point attempts went from .423 through age thirty to .538 from ages thirty-one through thirty-nine, an enormous upgrade that would be virtually inexplicable without accounting for major systemic and spatial changes.

More significantly, the 1993 Suns would have been a markedly worse defensive team with Nash instead of K.J., who was possibly the best defensive point guard in the game that year, especially in the playoffs. With Nash instead of K.J., Phoenix probably would have slipped from ninth in Defensive Rating (points allowed per possession) to the middle of the pack at best and lost in the First Round to the Lakers. (K.J.'s defense on Los Angeles' leading scorer, the explosive point guard Sedale Threatt, proved pivotal, as I could explain in a ton of detail if you want.) And if you think that Nash was going to defend Michael Jordan respectably in the NBA Finals, as K.J. ended up doing out of Phoenix's desperation, then ... good luck with that.

As for Barkley replacing Stoudemire on the Nash-era Suns, Stoudemire proved bad enough defensively, but how was Barkley going to defend centers on a consistent basis? At least Stoudemire possessed enough height and shot-blocking to make those match-ups plausible. Or at you suggesting that the Suns would have played a more traditional lineup with Barkley at power forward, Shawn Marion at small forward, and someone such as Steven Hunter or Jake Voskuhl playing major minutes at center? In that case, the offensive system would not have functioned in the same manner (yes, Jarron Collins or Robin Lopez started at center for Phoenix in the 2010 playoffs, but they played very limited minutes), and the defense would have been just as bad due to Barkley.

(Nor would playing with a thirty-six or thirty-seven-year old Shaquille O'Neal at center have been the answer. To quote Paul Westphal in the June 10, 2013, edition of Sports Illustrated:

Next to Shaq, Charles may have been the worst player in history at defending the pick-and-roll.


And then with a thirty-four or thirty-five-year old Nash usually defending the ball-handler? Yeah, that defense was not going to work.)

Regardless, the offensive system would not have functioned in the same manner anyhow. Once again, playing with Barkley would have turned Nash into something more like the Nash that you saw playing off Kobe Bryant a couple of years ago. If you think that Barkley would have been content to just set high screens for Nash and roll to the basket like the far more limited Stoudemire, or to play off Nash while the point guard dribbled in circles and ran the show, you had better think again. Barkley wanted the ball, and Nash would have ended up deferring to him more often than not, as ended up happening with Bryant in LA. The offense might have still been great, but the defense would not have been sufficient to win a championship.

Barkley and Nash are the two most acclaimed players in Phoenix Suns' history (MVPs! Duuuude!!!), but acclaim and publicity usually do not account for defense, ball movement and flow, contextual factors such as spacing and systems, and how players function together. If you don't believe me, go to LA and ask Mitch Kupchack and Jim Buss how pasting together 'names' worked for them ...
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Re: If you could take any five Suns in history on one team, who would you take? 

Post#26 » by GMATCallahan » Sat May 16, 2015 10:50 pm

irish22022 wrote:Guess I'm the only one who remembers how frustrating stat was as a center.

This is fun to think about, but if you think too much it gets frustrating. Barkley wouldn't be as successful at 4 in this NBA. Do we get players in their prime or how they were on the suns?

Prime players for current NBA

Kidd
Joe Johnson
Barkley
Frye
Shaq

Yes. I put Frye in that lineup. He and Barkley would be so interchangeable though it'd be impossible for every run down the floor. Hill is likely the best player in prime that was on the suns ever, but in this particular lineup, we'd need a stretch player. Hill and shaq on a team doesn't make a lot of sense to me.


Why? Grant Hill in his prime was better than Shaquille O'Neal in his prime? I don't know that Grant Hill in his prime (who never led a team to a playoff series victory, by the way) was better than Kevin Johnson in his prime. Don't get me wrong, Hill was an incredible player in his prime, but regardless of the hype and the media's fallacious obsession with triple-doubles (which helps explain why Jason Kidd proved overrated), he was not exactly Magic Johnson or Michael Jordan.

As I noted in my previous post, any lineup with both O'Neal and Barkley would be awful at defending the pick-and-roll ... awful. I also don't think that a prime Kidd would be a great choice for running a post-up offense, which is what you would run with a prime O'Neal and Barkley.
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Re: If you could take any five Suns in history on one team, who would you take? 

Post#27 » by GMATCallahan » Sat May 16, 2015 11:23 pm

ATTL wrote:Nash
Joe Johnson
Marion
Barkley
Amare

I think the shooting Nash provides would be invaluable with the added emphasis of the three in recent years. I love KJ and he would work very well on different versions of the 5-man unit that have more shooters.
Joe, great size, strength, shooting, and perimeter defense. Dude had ice in his veins as a last second shooter and would really have helped in those last second situations.
Marion-great rebounding and defense, prime Marion was a much better version than Draymond Green and would help cover some of Amare's rebounding on this team. Average shooter.
Barkley-best pf in team history, rebounding and scoring and iso situations would be great. Poor defense.
Amare-best finisher in team history, one of the best pick and roll men of all time. Nash-Amare and barkley-amare pick and rolls would be amazing. Poor defense, average rebounding.


... true enough, I suppose, but then one needs to account for the system and the era. Stoudemire played in a system that, dovetailing with the modern, revamped defensive three-seconds rule instituted in 2001, opened the court and the lane like never before. He could just set a screen, dive-bomb to the basket, and finish because there was no defense back there or able to rotate in time. To be sure, Stoudemire's explosiveness off the screen (and at the rim) played a role in that regard, but all the explosiveness in the world would not have enabled him to play quite the same way twenty-five years ago (or maybe even fifteen years ago), when the game was not oriented toward maximizing the pick-and-roll through floor spacing and when the lane often resembled a rugby scrum, with nine players sometimes in the paint at a given moment and often hardly anyone outside of fifteen feet. Pick-and-rolls in those days required more obstacle-course maneuvering, finesse, and savvy, areas where Stoudemire struggled.

Plug a young Antonio McDyess into Stoudemire's spot in that system in this era and one could have said the same about McDyess—except that he was much better defensively.
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Re: If you could take any five Suns in history on one team, who would you take? 

Post#28 » by bwgood77 » Sun May 17, 2015 12:16 am

GMATCallahan wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:I think I would take KJ, Davis, Marion, Barkley and Amare.

It's a tough decision for me because half of me wants to leave Barkley out. He and KJ didn't have good chemisty....him and Nash wouldn't have either. KJ ran the perfect offense but when Barkley showed up, he stopped the offense, and he would have done the same with Nash, so chemistry in this question is important.

When KJ and Barkley did so well it was almost like two individual players....if they had great chemistry they would have been unstoppable. If they would have anything close to the Nash/Amare relationship, they would have won championships...zero doubt in my mind.

KJ was so much better in his prime than most people think.


Barkley and K.J. possessed good chemistry for the most part, but as you indicated, Sir Charles was such an anti-flow player that he could never fully mesh with any other genuine star (the same situation emerged in Houston where he played with Hakeem Olajuwon, Clyde Drexler, and later Scottie Pippen) or any system. He was a very self-indulgent player, and in his view, everything around him ultimately proved subservient to his self-indulgences: holding the ball, slowly dribbling in a limited radius, playing "hero ball" even when injured or drained, attempting ill-advised threes off the dribble, and demanding the ball at the expense of the plays called by the coach (to say nothing of his self-indulgences on the other end of the court or away from game-time). As Cotton Fitzsimmons stated after retaking the coaching reigns in 1996, "The worst thing we can do is to throw the ball to Charles, then stand and watch him decide what to do. Kevin breaks the defense down and gets more people involved." Thus one of Fitzsimmons' in-game mantras became "Get the ball to Kevin!" In Game Two of the 1996 Western Conference First Round, K.J. controlled the offense through the first three quarters, running the pick-and-roll/pop to perfection (even with only one true perimeter shooter on the floor and less than optimal spatial concepts, sometimes allowing the Spurs to send two help defenders to the pick-and-roll and get away with a one-on-three defense on the weak-side) and conducted the overall offense about as well as anyone in history could have conducted it, passing for 16 assists through three quarters. (And he should have received credit for at least 17 and possibly 18 assists, but the San Antonio official scorer was very stingy, at least with the visiting point guard.) Barkley remained within the flow of the overall offense, with Bill Walton on NBC talking about the "special relationship" brewing between him and K.J. Then in the fourth quarter, Barkley started dominating the ball in the post; K.J. did not record another assist the rest of the game. Although Johnson scored 6 points in the fourth quarter (2-4 FG, 2-2 FT, with all his points coming late in the clutch), the Suns only scored 21 in the period after scoring at least 25 in each of the first three quarters; Phoenix fell by five points, 110-105.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199604280SAS.html

In fairness, Barkley was far, far, far more skilled and capable than Amar'e Stoudemire. His ball-handing, passing, post-up game, "iso" capabilities, and ability to create shots for himself and teammates were all galaxies beyond Stoudemire. A team could run an efficient offense through Barkley, which one never could have said about Stoudemire. Indeed, in my opinion, Barkley constituted the most talented true forward in NBA history. (LeBron James, in my view, is more of a hybrid.)

But as Phil Jackson once told the Chicago Tribune about Barkley while he was still in Philadelphia, Sir Charles was "a great, great player. Maybe unstoppable. But he's got no discipline, none. You can't win with a player like that." In Phoenix, Barkley proved that when surrounded by major talent and mature players, you could win a lot of regular season games with him. (Of course, in the four years before Barkley arrived, the Suns constituted the only NBA franchise to win at least 53 regular season games each year, anyway.) And if matters broke correctly, you could even override the erratic nature of his postseason performance and reach the NBA Finals—once. But as the subsequent seasons proved, you could not consistently win in the playoffs against elite competition with Barkley, in large part due to his lack of discipline (on and off the court) and his willingness to basically throw away possessions in order to satisfy his self-indulgent tendencies.

Barkley's ball-stopping style could be problematic in the playoffs because it created predictability and gave the defense greater time to set itself, read what was happening, anticipate, and make adjustments. Indeed, Michael Jordan and Hakeem Olajuwon would make their moves quickly, forcing the defense to respond in hurried or belated fashion or else break down. That said, the major reason why the Suns did not win a championship with Barkley was not offense, but defense. After all, in Barkley's first three seasons in Phoenix, the Suns ranked first, first, and third, respectively, in Offensive Rating (points scored per possession), despite many games missed due to injury. Even in Sir Charles' fourth and final season in Phoenix, '95-'96, the Suns still ranked seventh in Offensive Rating despite only possessing one real three-point shooter or natural off-ball perimeter shooter (a second-year Wesley Person) on the entire roster and despite Barkley and K.J. combining to miss 35 games while Danny Manning missed 49.

Rather, the principal reason why the Suns did not win a championship with Barkley was their defense, which can be explained by the following statistics. In '91-'92, their last season before Barkley arrived, Phoenix finished eighth overall in Defensive Rating (points allowed per possession), after finishing eighth in '90-'91, sixth in '89-'90, and fifth in '88-'89. By Barkley's fourth and final year in Phoenix, '95-'96, the Suns had plummeted to twenty-third (out of twenty-nine teams) in Defensive Rating. In fact, in each of his last three seasons in Phoenix, the Suns ranked dead-last among the sixteen playoff teams (that's right, sixteenth out of sixteen for three straight years) in Defensive Rating. Seriously, Phoenix did not possess a sound championship formula in those years, not when you are annually the worst defensive team in the playoffs. The reason why the Suns reached the NBA Finals in 1993 was because they actually ranked ninth overall (out of twenty-seven teams) in Defensive Rating that season (even though all their forwards were defensive liabilities), with K.J. constituting arguably the best defensive point guard in the game that year—again with little recognition except from people who actually go back and study the film, such as that of Game Seven of the Western Conference Finals.

It’s a virtuoso performance, but moreso on the defensive side. Johnson is spying constantly like a safety let off the called-play chain. The Sonics thrice try and force the break and Johnson cuts off the outlet pass.

http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/07/10/pbts-retroball-suns-sonics-93-and-the-night-barkley-wouldnt-lose/


But over the course of the Barkley years, the team's defensive performance declined dramatically, largely (although not entirely) due to Barkley himself. Primarily because of a lack of effort and conditioning, he proved terrible defensively in every aspect most of the time. He compensated to some extent with his defensive rebounding, but the team's overall defensive numbers speak for themselves. Just as tellingly, in '97-'98, the Suns' second season after trading Barkley, Phoenix finished sixth overall in Defensive Rating and won 56 games.

If I were constructing a lineup from Phoenix history to compete for a championship, I frankly would not be that interested in either Barkley or Stoudemire: ball-stoppers who do not play defense do not win championships. A forward tandem that would intrigue me, conversely, would be Shawn Marion and Larry Nance: two extremely athletic, versatile forwards who could finish above the rim, rebound, and defend on a high level. I would be open to different options at guard and center, but I guess that I would go with Kevin Johnson and Jeff Hornacek at guard and Alvan Adams at center. I would be open to considering some others at center (including Danny Manning as an undersized center, as Manning may have been the Suns' best all-around big man ever between ACL reconstructions and proved about as tall as Adams), and I would be open to considering a bigger, more physical shooting guard, such as Dan Majerle or Joe Johnson, for defensive purposes. I would also be willing to think about playing K.J. and Steve Nash together in a flexible read-and-react/drive-and-kick offense similar to what San Antonio presently employs.

Another option would be to play Kevin Johnson and Jason Kidd together at guard with a dangerous three-point shooter—Joe Johnson, perhaps—at small forward to create more floor spacing. In the last 43 regular season games that K.J. and Kidd played together where K.J. played at least 30 minutes, the Suns went 35-8 (.814). Then take Nance or Marion at power forward and Adams or Manning at center.

Of course, I have not even mentioned Tom Chambers and Walter Davis, two Ring of Honor members, not to mention two other Ring of Honor members in Connie Hawkins and Paul Westphal. Chambers possessed the kind of chemistry with K.J. that Stoudemire did with Nash, and he could match-up at all three front-court spots, although he did not play especially good defense at any of them.


Great post. I do wonder how differently would the team have done in the playoffs had Cotton continued coaching from 92-95. Could he have ever gotten through to Barkley. Even with Barkley being the way he was, we were so awful close in the 95 year when we had Houston on the ropes 3-1 and game 5 at home. Of course Barkley thought the series was over which was part of the problem, but would the team and flow have been much different had Cotton been coaching rather than first time coach Westphal.

I remember and know what you thought of Amare and his defense, but citing your Barkley stats above, and not considering rebounding (which some consider defense), who do you think was a poorer defender? Amare or Barkley? Teams with Amare AND Nash had better defenses than those you cite above with Barkley on them (especially considering he was the only key change in the lineup except for Hornacek, who was a good defender, but so was Majerle who would mostly take his minutes iirc).
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Re: If you could take any five Suns in history on one team, who would you take? 

Post#29 » by bwgood77 » Sun May 17, 2015 12:20 am

LukasBMW wrote:Replace KJ with Nash on the 93 team and we have a ring.

Replace Amare with Barkley on any 04-09 team and we have a ring.


I wish I could have seen a Nash/Barkley lineup. That would have been SICK!


PG 04-05 Nash
SG 92-93 Majerle
SF 05-06 Marion
PF 92-93 Barkley
C 04-05 Amare

I'm tempted to replace Amare with semi-retired Shaq because 85 year old shaq would do a better job on defense. But 04-05 Amare was a beast on the offensive end. It was before his injury, so he got all his points of power moves to the rim rather then his 17 foot jumpers that he settled for post injury.


I don't think you understand how anti system Barkley was. SSOL wouldn't have worked with Barkley. He was a ball stopper. KJ ran offenses just as good as Nash did, if not better.

Your lineup above would work well IF Barkley was told to focus on rebounding and not to hold the ball more than 3 seconds unless the play was called for him. But he wouldn't have followed those rules. The Nash/Amare pick n roll wouldn't have worked nearly as well with Barkley around either.
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Re: If you could take any five Suns in history on one team, who would you take? 

Post#30 » by bwgood77 » Sun May 17, 2015 12:30 am

GMATCallahan wrote:
ATTL wrote:
Plug a young Antonio McDyess into Stoudemire's spot in that system in this era and one could have said the same about McDyess—except that he was much better defensively.


Talk about McDyess....I really wish the Suns would have kept him the second time around instead of signing Q. I believe he signed with Detroit for like 3 years/$10 million...he would have been a perfect backup big for Amare and Marion. Then I would have just kept the draft pick and drafted Iguodala and extended JJ.

Sure, we wouldn't have been as explosive offensively that year without the floor spreading, but we would have been better defensively and better in the long run, and if we still signed Raja that next year we could have played JJ at the 3 at times..

That would have been deep

Nash
Bell/Johnson
Johnson/Iguodala
Marion/Iguodala
Amare/McDyess

I know Q ended up getting dealt for Kurt Thomas who was extremely helpful, but because we had all those contracts we had to dump him and pay two first rounders to do it.
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Re: If you could take any five Suns in history on one team, who would you take? 

Post#31 » by nevetsov » Mon May 18, 2015 12:30 pm

Nash, plus
Tony Delk
Ced Ceballos
Rodney Rogers
Amare

Defence doesn't count in hypotheticals, right?
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Re: If you could take any five Suns in history on one team, who would you take? 

Post#32 » by Scubetrolis » Wed May 20, 2015 2:51 am

All we needed was Nash, Amare and Shaq together for a full season with Alvin Gentry.

I think they averaged 120 points together under Gentry...but it was like 4 games.
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Re: If you could take any five Suns in history on one team, who would you take? 

Post#33 » by GMATCallahan » Thu May 21, 2015 6:29 am

bwgood77 wrote:
GMATCallahan wrote:
ATTL wrote:
Plug a young Antonio McDyess into Stoudemire's spot in that system in this era and one could have said the same about McDyess—except that he was much better defensively.


Talk about McDyess....I really wish the Suns would have kept him the second time around instead of signing Q. I believe he signed with Detroit for like 3 years/$10 million...he would have been a perfect backup big for Amare and Marion. Then I would have just kept the draft pick and drafted Iguodala and extended JJ.

Sure, we wouldn't have been as explosive offensively that year without the floor spreading, but we would have been better defensively and better in the long run, and if we still signed Raja that next year we could have played JJ at the 3 at times..

That would have been deep

Nash
Bell/Johnson
Johnson/Iguodala
Marion/Iguodala
Amare/McDyess

I know Q ended up getting dealt for Kurt Thomas who was extremely helpful, but because we had all those contracts we had to dump him and pay two first rounders to do it.


... a thoughtful proposition. But considering that D'Antoni coached McDyess during the second stint (not to mention earlier in Denver), he may have wanted to go in a different direction, knowing the kind of offense that he wanted to run. I don't think that D'Antoni would have wanted to start McDyess and Stoudemire together or play them often in a more traditional lineup, but when the Suns did need to resort to a bigger lineup (versus San Antonio in the Western Conference Finals, for instance), McDyess' ability to at least shoot the nineteen or twenty-foot jumper from around the top of the key would have meshed better with the offense than Steven Hunter. I was viewing part of Game One of that 2005 series about three years ago, and when the Suns inserted Hunter and played him and Stoudemire together several minutes into the third quarter, the offense just did not function in the same manner because Phoenix was playing a traditional lineup that lacked maximum spacing around the pick-and-roll, much like when Nash went to Los Angeles and Howard and Gasol were on the court simultaneously. Granted, McDyess would not have fully spread the floor either (as Nash found out with the Lakers, there is a big difference between the spacing created by Gasol at nineteen feet and Channing Frye at twenty-four feet), but his defense and depth would have proved valuable over the years, especially given Stoudemire's subsequent knee surgeries and his absence in '05-'06.

Another thought: Nash and McDyess were teammates on the '97-'98 Suns.

http://www.databasebasketball.com/teams/boxscore.htm?yr=1997&b=19980415&tm=PHO
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Re: If you could take any five Suns in history on one team, who would you take? 

Post#34 » by Sunsdeuce » Mon May 25, 2015 1:05 am

GMATCallahan wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:I think I would take KJ, Davis, Marion, Barkley and Amare.

It's a tough decision for me because half of me wants to leave Barkley out. He and KJ didn't have good chemisty....him and Nash wouldn't have either. KJ ran the perfect offense but when Barkley showed up, he stopped the offense, and he would have done the same with Nash, so chemistry in this question is important.

When KJ and Barkley did so well it was almost like two individual players....if they had great chemistry they would have been unstoppable. If they would have anything close to the Nash/Amare relationship, they would have won championships...zero doubt in my mind.

KJ was so much better in his prime than most people think.


Barkley and K.J. possessed good chemistry for the most part, but as you indicated, Sir Charles was such an anti-flow player that he could never fully mesh with any other genuine star (the same situation emerged in Houston where he played with Hakeem Olajuwon, Clyde Drexler, and later Scottie Pippen) or any system. He was a very self-indulgent player, and in his view, everything around him ultimately proved subservient to his self-indulgences: holding the ball, slowly dribbling in a limited radius, playing "hero ball" even when injured or drained, attempting ill-advised threes off the dribble, and demanding the ball at the expense of the plays called by the coach (to say nothing of his self-indulgences on the other end of the court or away from game-time). As Cotton Fitzsimmons stated after retaking the coaching reigns in 1996, "The worst thing we can do is to throw the ball to Charles, then stand and watch him decide what to do. Kevin breaks the defense down and gets more people involved." Thus one of Fitzsimmons' in-game mantras became "Get the ball to Kevin!" In Game Two of the 1996 Western Conference First Round, K.J. controlled the offense through the first three quarters, running the pick-and-roll/pop to perfection (even with only one true perimeter shooter on the floor and less than optimal spatial concepts, sometimes allowing the Spurs to send two help defenders to the pick-and-roll and get away with a one-on-three defense on the weak-side) and conducted the overall offense about as well as anyone in history could have conducted it, passing for 16 assists through three quarters. (And he should have received credit for at least 17 and possibly 18 assists, but the San Antonio official scorer was very stingy, at least with the visiting point guard.) Barkley remained within the flow of the overall offense, with Bill Walton on NBC talking about the "special relationship" brewing between him and K.J. Then in the fourth quarter, Barkley started dominating the ball in the post; K.J. did not record another assist the rest of the game. Although Johnson scored 6 points in the fourth quarter (2-4 FG, 2-2 FT, with all his points coming late in the clutch), the Suns only scored 21 in the period after scoring at least 25 in each of the first three quarters; Phoenix fell by five points, 110-105.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199604280SAS.html

In fairness, Barkley was far, far, far more skilled and capable than Amar'e Stoudemire. His ball-handing, passing, post-up game, "iso" capabilities, and ability to create shots for himself and teammates were all galaxies beyond Stoudemire. A team could run an efficient offense through Barkley, which one never could have said about Stoudemire. Indeed, in my opinion, Barkley constituted the most talented true forward in NBA history. (LeBron James, in my view, is more of a hybrid.)

But as Phil Jackson once told the Chicago Tribune about Barkley while he was still in Philadelphia, Sir Charles was "a great, great player. Maybe unstoppable. But he's got no discipline, none. You can't win with a player like that." In Phoenix, Barkley proved that when surrounded by major talent and mature players, you could win a lot of regular season games with him. (Of course, in the four years before Barkley arrived, the Suns constituted the only NBA franchise to win at least 53 regular season games each year, anyway.) And if matters broke correctly, you could even override the erratic nature of his postseason performance and reach the NBA Finals—once. But as the subsequent seasons proved, you could not consistently win in the playoffs against elite competition with Barkley, in large part due to his lack of discipline (on and off the court) and his willingness to basically throw away possessions in order to satisfy his self-indulgent tendencies.

Barkley's ball-stopping style could be problematic in the playoffs because it created predictability and gave the defense greater time to set itself, read what was happening, anticipate, and make adjustments. Indeed, Michael Jordan and Hakeem Olajuwon would make their moves quickly, forcing the defense to respond in hurried or belated fashion or else break down. That said, the major reason why the Suns did not win a championship with Barkley was not offense, but defense. After all, in Barkley's first three seasons in Phoenix, the Suns ranked first, first, and third, respectively, in Offensive Rating (points scored per possession), despite many games missed due to injury. Even in Sir Charles' fourth and final season in Phoenix, '95-'96, the Suns still ranked seventh in Offensive Rating despite only possessing one real three-point shooter or natural off-ball perimeter shooter (a second-year Wesley Person) on the entire roster and despite Barkley and K.J. combining to miss 35 games while Danny Manning missed 49.

Rather, the principal reason why the Suns did not win a championship with Barkley was their defense, which can be explained by the following statistics. In '91-'92, their last season before Barkley arrived, Phoenix finished eighth overall in Defensive Rating (points allowed per possession), after finishing eighth in '90-'91, sixth in '89-'90, and fifth in '88-'89. By Barkley's fourth and final year in Phoenix, '95-'96, the Suns had plummeted to twenty-third (out of twenty-nine teams) in Defensive Rating. In fact, in each of his last three seasons in Phoenix, the Suns ranked dead-last among the sixteen playoff teams (that's right, sixteenth out of sixteen for three straight years) in Defensive Rating. Seriously, Phoenix did not possess a sound championship formula in those years, not when you are annually the worst defensive team in the playoffs. The reason why the Suns reached the NBA Finals in 1993 was because they actually ranked ninth overall (out of twenty-seven teams) in Defensive Rating that season (even though all their forwards were defensive liabilities), with K.J. constituting arguably the best defensive point guard in the game that year—again with little recognition except from people who actually go back and study the film, such as that of Game Seven of the Western Conference Finals.

It’s a virtuoso performance, but moreso on the defensive side. Johnson is spying constantly like a safety let off the called-play chain. The Sonics thrice try and force the break and Johnson cuts off the outlet pass.

http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/07/10/pbts-retroball-suns-sonics-93-and-the-night-barkley-wouldnt-lose/


But over the course of the Barkley years, the team's defensive performance declined dramatically, largely (although not entirely) due to Barkley himself. Primarily because of a lack of effort and conditioning, he proved terrible defensively in every aspect most of the time. He compensated to some extent with his defensive rebounding, but the team's overall defensive numbers speak for themselves. Just as tellingly, in '97-'98, the Suns' second season after trading Barkley, Phoenix finished sixth overall in Defensive Rating and won 56 games.

If I were constructing a lineup from Phoenix history to compete for a championship, I frankly would not be that interested in either Barkley or Stoudemire: ball-stoppers who do not play defense do not win championships. A forward tandem that would intrigue me, conversely, would be Shawn Marion and Larry Nance: two extremely athletic, versatile forwards who could finish above the rim, rebound, and defend on a high level. I would be open to different options at guard and center, but I guess that I would go with Kevin Johnson and Jeff Hornacek at guard and Alvan Adams at center. I would be open to considering some others at center (including Danny Manning as an undersized center, as Manning may have been the Suns' best all-around big man ever between ACL reconstructions and proved about as tall as Adams), and I would be open to considering a bigger, more physical shooting guard, such as Dan Majerle or Joe Johnson, for defensive purposes. I would also be willing to think about playing K.J. and Steve Nash together in a flexible read-and-react/drive-and-kick offense similar to what San Antonio presently employs.

Another option would be to play Kevin Johnson and Jason Kidd together at guard with a dangerous three-point shooter—Joe Johnson, perhaps—at small forward to create more floor spacing. In the last 43 regular season games that K.J. and Kidd played together where K.J. played at least 30 minutes, the Suns went 35-8 (.814). Then take Nance or Marion at power forward and Adams or Manning at center.

Of course, I have not even mentioned Tom Chambers and Walter Davis, two Ring of Honor members, not to mention two other Ring of Honor members in Connie Hawkins and Paul Westphal. Chambers possessed the kind of chemistry with K.J. that Stoudemire did with Nash, and he could match-up at all three front-court spots, although he did not play especially good defense at any of them.


Great thought out write up but much of it is not true. I bolded the areas especially not true (regarding Barkley). I literally watched every game Barkley played with the suns. He definitely was NOT a ball stopper. That is so far from the truth its sad. Suns did not lose the championship because of his poor defense, it was because the suns lost one of their best players during the playoffs. A guy, by the name of Cedric Z Ceballos, broke his leg.

Barkley was not a "Bad Defender", he was more of a lazy defender. When his heart was in it, he was an absolute beast on defense. But again, he didnt alway try his hardest on defense.

The only reason we even made it to the Finals was BECAUSE of Barkley. Your argument tries to say we didnt win because of Barkley which is entirely not true.

Otherwise, great research on your write-up.
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Re: If you could take any five Suns in history on one team, who would you take? 

Post#35 » by bwgood77 » Mon May 25, 2015 1:23 am

Sunsdeuce wrote:
GMATCallahan wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:I think I would take KJ, Davis, Marion, Barkley and Amare.

It's a tough decision for me because half of me wants to leave Barkley out. He and KJ didn't have good chemisty....him and Nash wouldn't have either. KJ ran the perfect offense but when Barkley showed up, he stopped the offense, and he would have done the same with Nash, so chemistry in this question is important.

When KJ and Barkley did so well it was almost like two individual players....if they had great chemistry they would have been unstoppable. If they would have anything close to the Nash/Amare relationship, they would have won championships...zero doubt in my mind.

KJ was so much better in his prime than most people think.


Barkley and K.J. possessed good chemistry for the most part, but as you indicated, Sir Charles was such an anti-flow player that he could never fully mesh with any other genuine star (the same situation emerged in Houston where he played with Hakeem Olajuwon, Clyde Drexler, and later Scottie Pippen) or any system. He was a very self-indulgent player, and in his view, everything around him ultimately proved subservient to his self-indulgences: holding the ball, slowly dribbling in a limited radius, playing "hero ball" even when injured or drained, attempting ill-advised threes off the dribble, and demanding the ball at the expense of the plays called by the coach (to say nothing of his self-indulgences on the other end of the court or away from game-time). As Cotton Fitzsimmons stated after retaking the coaching reigns in 1996, "The worst thing we can do is to throw the ball to Charles, then stand and watch him decide what to do. Kevin breaks the defense down and gets more people involved." Thus one of Fitzsimmons' in-game mantras became "Get the ball to Kevin!" In Game Two of the 1996 Western Conference First Round, K.J. controlled the offense through the first three quarters, running the pick-and-roll/pop to perfection (even with only one true perimeter shooter on the floor and less than optimal spatial concepts, sometimes allowing the Spurs to send two help defenders to the pick-and-roll and get away with a one-on-three defense on the weak-side) and conducted the overall offense about as well as anyone in history could have conducted it, passing for 16 assists through three quarters. (And he should have received credit for at least 17 and possibly 18 assists, but the San Antonio official scorer was very stingy, at least with the visiting point guard.) Barkley remained within the flow of the overall offense, with Bill Walton on NBC talking about the "special relationship" brewing between him and K.J. Then in the fourth quarter, Barkley started dominating the ball in the post; K.J. did not record another assist the rest of the game. Although Johnson scored 6 points in the fourth quarter (2-4 FG, 2-2 FT, with all his points coming late in the clutch), the Suns only scored 21 in the period after scoring at least 25 in each of the first three quarters; Phoenix fell by five points, 110-105.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199604280SAS.html

In fairness, Barkley was far, far, far more skilled and capable than Amar'e Stoudemire. His ball-handing, passing, post-up game, "iso" capabilities, and ability to create shots for himself and teammates were all galaxies beyond Stoudemire. A team could run an efficient offense through Barkley, which one never could have said about Stoudemire. Indeed, in my opinion, Barkley constituted the most talented true forward in NBA history. (LeBron James, in my view, is more of a hybrid.)

But as Phil Jackson once told the Chicago Tribune about Barkley while he was still in Philadelphia, Sir Charles was "a great, great player. Maybe unstoppable. But he's got no discipline, none. You can't win with a player like that." In Phoenix, Barkley proved that when surrounded by major talent and mature players, you could win a lot of regular season games with him. (Of course, in the four years before Barkley arrived, the Suns constituted the only NBA franchise to win at least 53 regular season games each year, anyway.) And if matters broke correctly, you could even override the erratic nature of his postseason performance and reach the NBA Finals—once. But as the subsequent seasons proved, you could not consistently win in the playoffs against elite competition with Barkley, in large part due to his lack of discipline (on and off the court) and his willingness to basically throw away possessions in order to satisfy his self-indulgent tendencies.

Barkley's ball-stopping style could be problematic in the playoffs because it created predictability and gave the defense greater time to set itself, read what was happening, anticipate, and make adjustments. Indeed, Michael Jordan and Hakeem Olajuwon would make their moves quickly, forcing the defense to respond in hurried or belated fashion or else break down. That said, the major reason why the Suns did not win a championship with Barkley was not offense, but defense. After all, in Barkley's first three seasons in Phoenix, the Suns ranked first, first, and third, respectively, in Offensive Rating (points scored per possession), despite many games missed due to injury. Even in Sir Charles' fourth and final season in Phoenix, '95-'96, the Suns still ranked seventh in Offensive Rating despite only possessing one real three-point shooter or natural off-ball perimeter shooter (a second-year Wesley Person) on the entire roster and despite Barkley and K.J. combining to miss 35 games while Danny Manning missed 49.

Rather, the principal reason why the Suns did not win a championship with Barkley was their defense, which can be explained by the following statistics. In '91-'92, their last season before Barkley arrived, Phoenix finished eighth overall in Defensive Rating (points allowed per possession), after finishing eighth in '90-'91, sixth in '89-'90, and fifth in '88-'89. By Barkley's fourth and final year in Phoenix, '95-'96, the Suns had plummeted to twenty-third (out of twenty-nine teams) in Defensive Rating. In fact, in each of his last three seasons in Phoenix, the Suns ranked dead-last among the sixteen playoff teams (that's right, sixteenth out of sixteen for three straight years) in Defensive Rating. Seriously, Phoenix did not possess a sound championship formula in those years, not when you are annually the worst defensive team in the playoffs. The reason why the Suns reached the NBA Finals in 1993 was because they actually ranked ninth overall (out of twenty-seven teams) in Defensive Rating that season (even though all their forwards were defensive liabilities), with K.J. constituting arguably the best defensive point guard in the game that year—again with little recognition except from people who actually go back and study the film, such as that of Game Seven of the Western Conference Finals.

It’s a virtuoso performance, but moreso on the defensive side. Johnson is spying constantly like a safety let off the called-play chain. The Sonics thrice try and force the break and Johnson cuts off the outlet pass.

http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/07/10/pbts-retroball-suns-sonics-93-and-the-night-barkley-wouldnt-lose/


But over the course of the Barkley years, the team's defensive performance declined dramatically, largely (although not entirely) due to Barkley himself. Primarily because of a lack of effort and conditioning, he proved terrible defensively in every aspect most of the time. He compensated to some extent with his defensive rebounding, but the team's overall defensive numbers speak for themselves. Just as tellingly, in '97-'98, the Suns' second season after trading Barkley, Phoenix finished sixth overall in Defensive Rating and won 56 games.

If I were constructing a lineup from Phoenix history to compete for a championship, I frankly would not be that interested in either Barkley or Stoudemire: ball-stoppers who do not play defense do not win championships. A forward tandem that would intrigue me, conversely, would be Shawn Marion and Larry Nance: two extremely athletic, versatile forwards who could finish above the rim, rebound, and defend on a high level. I would be open to different options at guard and center, but I guess that I would go with Kevin Johnson and Jeff Hornacek at guard and Alvan Adams at center. I would be open to considering some others at center (including Danny Manning as an undersized center, as Manning may have been the Suns' best all-around big man ever between ACL reconstructions and proved about as tall as Adams), and I would be open to considering a bigger, more physical shooting guard, such as Dan Majerle or Joe Johnson, for defensive purposes. I would also be willing to think about playing K.J. and Steve Nash together in a flexible read-and-react/drive-and-kick offense similar to what San Antonio presently employs.

Another option would be to play Kevin Johnson and Jason Kidd together at guard with a dangerous three-point shooter—Joe Johnson, perhaps—at small forward to create more floor spacing. In the last 43 regular season games that K.J. and Kidd played together where K.J. played at least 30 minutes, the Suns went 35-8 (.814). Then take Nance or Marion at power forward and Adams or Manning at center.

Of course, I have not even mentioned Tom Chambers and Walter Davis, two Ring of Honor members, not to mention two other Ring of Honor members in Connie Hawkins and Paul Westphal. Chambers possessed the kind of chemistry with K.J. that Stoudemire did with Nash, and he could match-up at all three front-court spots, although he did not play especially good defense at any of them.


Great thought out write up but much of it is not true. I bolded the areas especially not true (regarding Barkley). I literally watched every game Barkley played with the suns. He definitely was NOT a ball stopper. That is so far from the truth its sad. Suns did not lose the championship because of his poor defense, it was because the suns lost one of their best players during the playoffs. A guy, by the name of Cedric Z Ceballos, broke his leg.

Barkley was not a "Bad Defender", he was more of a lazy defender. When his heart was in it, he was an absolute beast on defense. But again, he didnt alway try his hardest on defense.

The only reason we even made it to the Finals was BECAUSE of Barkley. Your argument tries to say we didnt win because of Barkley which is entirely not true.

Otherwise, great research on your write-up.


Did you watch the Suns pre Barkley? 88-92?

Barkley definitely stopped team ball movement when he got the ball at times. He was a good passer too. It kind of reminds me of Kobe playing with Nash. Kobe would want to work things slowly and his way, and pick up the assist.

We had a great team from 93-97, but KJ and Barkley definitely didn't mesh extremely well. It was definitely necessary that we added him when we did, but I do think if he had deferred a little bit more to KJ and let the offense completely flow through him at least almost all of the time, we would have won. But Seattle and Houston were also very good those years (as was Utah) so it was just a very tough Western Conference. I was never sure we were good enough to beat Seattle or Houston in 93 or 94, and obviously we won a hard fought battle with Seattle in 93 and didn't have to face Houston. I felt Houston was better in 94 and didn't expect to win (kind of like the 05 Suns...I didn't really expect us to beat the Spurs). But in 95, I felt we were the best team (as I did in 07) and could beat anyone if we didn't make mistakes or get unlucky. That 95 series was extremely brutal. That Elie 3 was probably my worst moment as a Suns fan.
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Re: If you could take any five Suns in history on one team, who would you take? 

Post#36 » by Sunsdeuce » Mon May 25, 2015 4:23 am

Paxson 3 pointer was my worst moment. I literally just sat there silent after it went it. The whole arena died that second.

In answer to your question yes I watched 88-92 (though I can say I was more of a casual fan at that time, even went to games at the madhouse on McDowell). I will admit barkley is/was the reason I became a hardcore fan of the Suns so I admit I am bias.

To this day I still marvel at what barkley did. He was 6'2 (NBA stats list him at 6,4, which he admits to not correct), could shoot left or right handed, a rebounding machine while at the same time carrying his team on offense, one of the toughest SOBs you will met, above all else he made the game fun to watch.

The best team the Suns ever put together (yet didn't finish the season together) was 94-95. The Suns were killing teams at a record pace than bam, joe kleine kills the whole season after he falls on Manning's knee and at the moment the Suns were never the same. It's was 46 games of complete domination. The offense was beautiful and easy.

My team:
PG: KJ backup nash
SG: majerle backup Johnson
SF: Toss up Cedric or Marion or manning
Forward: barkley Backup chambers/manning
Center: len with west backup

I left amare off because he was a liability in the rebounding department and he is not a center even though mike d played him there.
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Re: If you could take any five Suns in history on one team, who would you take? 

Post#37 » by bwgood77 » Mon Jun 8, 2015 3:03 am

Sunsdeuce wrote:Paxson 3 pointer was my worst moment. I literally just sat there silent after it went it. The whole arena died that second.

In answer to your question yes I watched 88-92 (though I can say I was more of a casual fan at that time, even went to games at the madhouse on McDowell). I will admit barkley is/was the reason I became a hardcore fan of the Suns so I admit I am bias.

To this day I still marvel at what barkley did. He was 6'2 (NBA stats list him at 6,4, which he admits to not correct), could shoot left or right handed, a rebounding machine while at the same time carrying his team on offense, one of the toughest SOBs you will met, above all else he made the game fun to watch.

The best team the Suns ever put together (yet didn't finish the season together) was 94-95. The Suns were killing teams at a record pace than bam, joe kleine kills the whole season after he falls on Manning's knee and at the moment the Suns were never the same. It's was 46 games of complete domination. The offense was beautiful and easy.

My team:
PG: KJ backup nash
SG: majerle backup Johnson
SF: Toss up Cedric or Marion or manning
Forward: barkley Backup chambers/manning
Center: len with west backup

I left amare off because he was a liability in the rebounding department and he is not a center even though mike d played him there.


I think if Amare backed up Barkley or even played with at times, that KJ/Amare would have been special too....or if Nash/Amare came in when KJ/Barkley sat, it would have been nice.

As a matter of fact, KJ might have been better with Amare and then Nash with Barkley, mainly because Nash/Barkley would have worked better than KJ/Barkley because when Barkley decided to control the ball, and back down to the basket, and then if he got double teamed, he would flip it out to someone for an assist, Nash, as a better 3 pt shooter would have stretched the floor and been a perfect guy for Barkley to throw it too. KJ wasn't a great 3 pt shooter, so he wouldn't be as respected out there.

But could you imagine Nash/Barkley or KJ/Amare on the floor at all times? Also helps a bit defensively since KJ was a better defender than Nash and Barkley better than Amare so you wouldn't sacrifice as much overall defensively with those pairs.
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Re: If you could take any five Suns in history on one team, who would you take? 

Post#38 » by JayBenzy » Mon Jun 8, 2015 5:27 pm

I think Nash is a hell of a PG and one of the Suns all time great but...

PG: Kidd
SG: Majerle
SF: Marion
PF: Sir Charles
C: Amare
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Re: If you could take any five Suns in history on one team, who would you take? 

Post#39 » by Suns2k5 » Tue Jun 16, 2015 6:16 am

C Tom Chambers
F Charles Barkley
F Robert Horry
G Walter Davis
G. Steve Nash
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Re: If you could take any five Suns in history on one team, who would you take? 

Post#40 » by b-ball forever » Tue Jun 16, 2015 6:23 am

C Amare
F Chuck
F Marion
G Kidd
G KJ
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