Political Roundtable - Part VI

[penbeast0]

I agree with the criticism; we need to have a clear idea of where we want to go and what our exit strategy is . . . . but we don't have that now with ISIS and the air attacks. We have created an enemy with which we are at war and we are not willing to do what it takes to win that war. That is my problem.

If we had stayed out of the whole mess, fine. Once we are in it, we need to be in it to win, rather than just to prolong a losing conflict and right now, it sure looks like a losing conflict unless there is a drastic change in US strategy.

Even a strategy where when we are challenged, we send in the full power of the military, smash the opponents, then just pull out and leave them and their neighbors to pick up the pieces is better than this fighting to lose strategy. Not saying that's the best strategy, it isn't. Saying what we are doing now is worse.

[Induveca]

Zonk the problem is, he didn't "end the war", he abandoned an active battlefield. Also, betrayed the trust of all of our allies in the Middle East, and ignored counsel from both the Pentagon and CIA to leave 10-30k troops behind to maintain some order and to stop Syria spilling over into Iraq. The U.S. always leaves behind a similar force. There is still one in Grenada, Germany, Phillipines, Korea, Japan etc.

Iraq is certainly Bush's legacy, however Obama has gone out of his way to foolishly make ISIS his own.

[popper]

A strategy without an exit strategy or endgame plan isn't a strategy at all.
It will be doomed to failure. You need a realistic plan of response to
virtually every conceivable what if...You also need a realistic assessment
on the limits to the resources, both blood and treasure, you are prepared
as well as actually able to sacrifice. If you want to escalate our intervention,
you need to be prepared to explain what your plans and limits are.

The ironic/sad reality is that we probably need to align with Iran in order to
stabilize Iraq, Iraq being a Shia majority 'country' however artificially conceived.
They might be the most rational actors in the region at the present time.
Not sure how analogous Iraq/Syria are to Rwanda. I'd say they're a whole lot
more complicated. Just like every negotiation in which concessions are
made is not analogous to Chamberlain at Munich.

I know one thing for sure, no one should EVER listen to the neo-cons again.
They were so hugely wrong and so hugely incompetent all while casting
anyone who disagreed with them as unpatriotic wussies.

According to Obama, Iraq was an extraordinary achievement.

...On Dec. 14, 2011, when he was removing the last U.S. troops from Iraq, Obama gave a speech at Fort Bragg in North Carolina. Here he said his strategy based on building a sovereign, stable, self-reliant Iraq had succeeded.

“It’s harder to end a war than begin one,” Obama said at Fort Bragg. “Indeed, everything that American troops have done in Iraq--all the fighting and all the dying, the bleeding and the building, and the training and the partnering--all of it has led to this moment of success. Now, Iraq is not a perfect place. It has many challenges ahead. But we’re leaving behind a sovereign, stable and self-reliant Iraq, with a representative government that was elected by its people. We’re building a new partnership between our nations. And we are ending a war not with a final battle, but with a final march toward home. This is an extraordinary achievement, nearly nine years in the making.”...

You're an awfully hard man to please. Obama makes a conciliatory gesture to his predecessor whose mess he is cleaning up and you're killing him for it.

I hope you are never in a position to be judged by another person. It sucks.

I have been judged by another and came up short Zonk. Edit - I hope others can learn from my mistakes.

Romans
(21) For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened (22) Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools (23) and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.

[Zonkerbl]

According to Obama, Iraq was an extraordinary achievement.

...On Dec. 14, 2011, when he was removing the last U.S. troops from Iraq, Obama gave a speech at Fort Bragg in North Carolina. Here he said his strategy based on building a sovereign, stable, self-reliant Iraq had succeeded.

“It’s harder to end a war than begin one,” Obama said at Fort Bragg. “Indeed, everything that American troops have done in Iraq--all the fighting and all the dying, the bleeding and the building, and the training and the partnering--all of it has led to this moment of success. Now, Iraq is not a perfect place. It has many challenges ahead. But we’re leaving behind a sovereign, stable and self-reliant Iraq, with a representative government that was elected by its people. We’re building a new partnership between our nations. And we are ending a war not with a final battle, but with a final march toward home. This is an extraordinary achievement, nearly nine years in the making.”...

You're an awfully hard man to please. Obama makes a conciliatory gesture to his predecessor whose mess he is cleaning up and you're killing him for it.

I hope you are never in a position to be judged by another person. It sucks.

I have been judged by another and came up short Zonk. Edit - I hope others can learn from my mistakes.

Romans
(21) For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened (22) Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools (23) and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.

Great, you can quote the Bible.

[Zonkerbl]

Zonk the problem is, he didn't "end the war", he abandoned an active battlefield. Also, betrayed the trust of all of our allies in the Middle East, and ignored counsel from both the Pentagon and CIA to leave 10-30k troops behind to maintain some order and to stop Syria spilling over into Iraq. The U.S. always leaves behind a similar force. There is still one in Grenada, Germany, Phillipines, Korea, Japan etc.

Iraq is certainly Bush's legacy, however Obama has gone out of his way to foolishly make ISIS his own.

If we're going to play the blame game, let's go all the way. I get to make this up, right? No actual knowledge or facts required? Ok! Great!

The Republicans did not allow Obama the $3 trillion bailout package that we needed to guarantee a quick and full recovery from the great recession. So our economy lingered in deep recession throughout the entirety of Obama's first term, meaning we didn't have the money to support and endless and directionless interventionist Middle East policy started by the Republicans.

So Obama pretty much had no choice but to pull out of Iraq, and ISIS is the Republican's fault.

Look, it's human nature to want to point fingers. It makes us feel better about ourselves. We want to justify our racist hatred of Obama. But ISIS is a direct result of the Cold War, which is a direct result of Hitler invading the Soviet Union and forcing them to become a military superpower to survive. If you want to blame anyone for ISIS, blame Hitler.

Look, ISIS is a worldwide problem. It's not just our problem. In fact, it is mostly the EU's and the Middle East's problem. Let Saudi Arabia and the EU step up for once and contribute their fair share instead of forcing us to shoulder the whole burden.

[dckingsfan]

We should seek to end social injustice throughout the world?

No, that's not our problem...

----------------

Shouldn't you have edited that frame out?

[dckingsfan]

Zonk the problem is, he didn't "end the war", he abandoned an active battlefield. Also, betrayed the trust of all of our allies in the Middle East, and ignored counsel from both the Pentagon and CIA to leave 10-30k troops behind to maintain some order and to stop Syria spilling over into Iraq. The U.S. always leaves behind a similar force. There is still one in Grenada, Germany, Phillipines, Korea, Japan etc.

Iraq is certainly Bush's legacy, however Obama has gone out of his way to foolishly make ISIS his own.

If we're going to play the blame game, let's go all the way. I get to make this up, right? No actual knowledge or facts required? Ok! Great!

The Republicans did not allow Obama the $3 trillion bailout package that we needed to guarantee a quick and full recovery from the great recession. So our economy lingered in deep recession throughout the entirety of Obama's first term, meaning we didn't have the money to support and endless and directionless interventionist Middle East policy started by the Republicans.

So Obama pretty much had no choice but to pull out of Iraq, and ISIS is the Republican's fault.

Look, it's human nature to want to point fingers. It makes us feel better about ourselves. We want to justify our racist hatred of Obama. But ISIS is a direct result of the Cold War, which is a direct result of Hitler invading the Soviet Union and forcing them to become a military superpower to survive. If you want to blame anyone for ISIS, blame Hitler.

Look, ISIS is a worldwide problem. It's not just our problem. In fact, it is mostly the EU's and the Middle East's problem. Let Saudi Arabia and the EU step up for once and contribute their fair share instead of forcing us to shoulder the whole burden.

I am pretty much in agreement - all in or all out. If we want to be all out - so be it... But we should know we are just putting off the inevitable. And, since we (America) helped create the problem, we would be walking away from our moral obligation.

And remember - the first stimulus bill did go through - it was like the ACA, not well written or conceived. What was the name of that solar panel company? And the second stimulus as written would have been worse.

Zonk, we both know that isn't the problem with the economy. We have locked money into our social programs that grow at an annualized rate. And we have locked money into our defense spending. That coupled with servicing the debt isn't allowing us to allocate money toward growth - it is a political problem and both the Rs and Ds have contributed to the problem for many administrations.

[nate33]

Zonk the problem is, he didn't "end the war", he abandoned an active battlefield. Also, betrayed the trust of all of our allies in the Middle East, and ignored counsel from both the Pentagon and CIA to leave 10-30k troops behind to maintain some order and to stop Syria spilling over into Iraq. The U.S. always leaves behind a similar force. There is still one in Grenada, Germany, Phillipines, Korea, Japan etc.

Iraq is certainly Bush's legacy, however Obama has gone out of his way to foolishly make ISIS his own.

If we're going to play the blame game, let's go all the way. I get to make this up, right? No actual knowledge or facts required? Ok! Great!

The Republicans did not allow Obama the $3 trillion bailout package that we needed to guarantee a quick and full recovery from the great recession. So our economy lingered in deep recession throughout the entirety of Obama's first term, meaning we didn't have the money to support and endless and directionless interventionist Middle East policy started by the Republicans.

The Congressional Budget Office estimates that the Obama Stimulus ended up costing between $540,000 and $4.1M dollars per job created. Do you really think that was an effective use of resources?

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Another man dies in police custody...this time an American soldier.

Are we outraged now?

http://www.cnn.com/videos/justice/2015/ ... s-jail.cnn

Any idea why the man became so violent in his jail cell? All he had to do was keep his mouth shut and serve his 48 hours so he could go home to his family. Why provoke the police?

The death of this man is very disturbing. Black males and police have real issues in society. That's the perception I see. He should have just complied with the direction of the court and did his time. I'd like to see the whole tape, I'm sure the police could have just left him to cool down.

When the police stop me, I just answer their questions and only their questions. If I'm in the car, hands are at 10 and 2. I'm not moving around in the car and make sure my hands are visible from the driver side mirror. The objective here is to leave the police stop still breathing and unhurt.

Here are the facts:

He had PTSD, which he had reported to them before he entered custody. He was smearing blood on the walls of his cell, which clearly indicated a sign of a mental disorder. He communicated that he couldn't breathe and was choking on blood.

He was supposed to be there on a 2-day stint for a DUI. He left their custody dead.

"Provoking" the police is your supposition--it isn't fact. And the burden of keeping him safe and alive is on the police, not the inmate. Also, there is something called proportanility, which wasn't used in this situation. They sent a 5-man team in full riot gear to subdue a soldier with PTSD. There was no doctor present. He died...

I've experienced mental health issues. I'm a veteran. I know many other veterans who have either mental health diagnoses, combat experience, and/or been incarcerated.

I have experienced an anxiety attack. I also know what it feels like to have my entire life change after being overseas in military service, as well as having a spouse overseas. Multiple deployments.

I don't want to know the specifics but I will give you an answer: The dead guy didn't respond well or appropriately to whatever treatment he received. He was probably delusional. There was no one there to save him from himself and/or perhaps repressive conditions.

To go from serving your country to being treated like crap, or merely the shame of getting locked up can cause some to freak out.

Just watch "First Blood". Maybe the guy was a person who looked intimidating. He didn't meekly present himself? That kid in Ferguson was big and black. "Poor Darren Wilson" neutralized the threat, perceived or not. (I say he should have hunted down and killed him a big, black, bear instead...).

Just 48 hours in jail? Did he have a family? My kids are thousands of miles away. Maybe this person wasn't able to keep it together. I was blessed to have had a great dad and great church members to be there for me at my lowest.

I'm sorry for the deceased. R.I.P.

****If you care to, pray for a man who came back from Afghanistan and was divorced. His issues with anxiety and depression have to do with a girl child he befriended who he feels was killed just because she accepted candy from him. Haven't met him yet. I only share this because many of you probably don't imagine the horror and burden that some people are going through.

I believe God has given me a lot of suffering so that I can encourage people like that veteran. Life is good but many times terrible things have to be navigated through. Peers, mental health professionals, clergy, supportive friends and family, occupational therapists, and the veteran's own resolve to adapt and incorporate wellness techniques makes a HUGE difference.

Most people just need a person who has an ear to listen.

The great news is most of the time support systems are there to prevent tragedies such as above. If the guy were active duty, a platoon sergeant or a chaplain or a company commander would have been an invaluable intermediary.

What should have happened? COMPASSIONATE CARE. -- CALM the guy's stress level down and allow mental health to provide medical care first. Let law enforcement do its thing when the prisoner is in his right mind. Or, put him in a padded room with restraints, if absolutely necessary. The main thing is police should be professional enough to see the bigger picture. However, they're stressed and human, too.

[nate33]

It seems to me that IF we are going to fight ISIS, we should actually commit to fighting them and throw the entire (non-nuclear) might of the U.S. military in. I have always hated the idea of a partial commitment to war. It's been a loser pretty consistently from Vietnam on. If we are going to fight against someone, we should fight to win.

I believe you need to recognize that given the clear superiority of our forces, winning has never been
an issue. The issue ALWAYS is, then what?

That doesn't mean I support a war in the Middle East, just that if we are using aircraft there and "military advisors," the other side of the conflict clearly thinks we are at war against it and hate builds more the longer it goes on. What we do is just build the other side and recruit for them. Fight to win or stay out.

The problem with this (all out war) is simple:
Victory ain't what it used to be. After our inevitable victory, we will not simply be able to leave.
We will likely find ourselves in the same position we were in 2005-2007 (after a convincing victory).
The costs of occupation in both lives and treasure will be unsustainable, say nothing of the psychic
damage done to our occupying forces put in the impossible position of maintaining order when
they will not be able to discern friend from foe. Many will be permanently damaged as human beings.

This. So much, this. We simply don't have the stomach to wage war the way it needs to be waged. Most democracies lack that fortitude.

Ann Coulter said something about a decade ago that was partially tongue in cheek, but mostly accurate. She said,

"We should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity. We weren't punctilious about locating and punishing only Hitler and his top officers. We carpet-bombed German cities; we killed civilians. That's war. And this is war."

She's right. Before even contemplating war in the Middle East, we should have been prepared to literally take over the region. I'm talking about seizing the oil fields, killing or capturing the leadership, and installing our own leaders who had a systematic plan of altering the culture to one that is more in synch with Western culture. We never in our most ambitious aspirations even considered something like this, so the whole endeavor was doomed to failure.

Think about it. We haven't really won a war since World War II because that was the only time we were committed to truly conquering the enemy.

(Note, I'm not advocating that we should have "conquered" Iraq. I'm saying we should have avoided the whole thing in the first place because we knew full well that didn't have the stomach to conquer them.)

[dckingsfan]

Any idea why the man became so violent in his jail cell? All he had to do was keep his mouth shut and serve his 48 hours so he could go home to his family. Why provoke the police?

The death of this man is very disturbing. Black males and police have real issues in society. That's the perception I see. He should have just complied with the direction of the court and did his time. I'd like to see the whole tape, I'm sure the police could have just left him to cool down.

When the police stop me, I just answer their questions and only their questions. If I'm in the car, hands are at 10 and 2. I'm not moving around in the car and make sure my hands are visible from the driver side mirror. The objective here is to leave the police stop still breathing and unhurt.

Here are the facts:

He had PTSD, which he had reported to them before he entered custody. He was smearing blood on the walls of his cell, which clearly indicated a sign of a mental disorder. He communicated that he couldn't breathe and was choking on blood.

He was supposed to be there on a 2-day stint for a DUI. He left their custody dead.

"Provoking" the police is your supposition--it isn't fact. And the burden of keeping him safe and alive is on the police, not the inmate. Also, there is something called proportanility, which wasn't used in this situation. They sent a 5-man team in full riot gear to subdue a soldier with PTSD. There was no doctor present. He died...

I've experienced mental health issues. I'm a veteran. I know many other vetetans who have either combat and/or been incarcerated.

I have experienced an anxiety attack. I also know what it feels like to have my entire life change after being overseas in military service, as well as having a spouse overseas. Multiple deployments.

I don't want to know the specifics but I will give you an answer: the dead guy didn't respond to whatever treatment he received. He was probably delusional. There was no one there to save him from himself and/or perhaps repressive conditions.

To go from serving your country to being treated like crap, or merely the shame of getting locked up can cause some to freak out.

Just watch "First Blood". Maybe the guy was a person who looked intimidating. That kid in Ferguson was big and black. Poor Darren
Wilson neutralized the threat, perceived or not.

Just 48 hours in jail? Did he have a family? My kids are thousands of miles away. Maybe this person wasn't able to keep it together. I was blessed to have had a great dad and great church members to be there for me at my lowest.

I'm sorry for the deceased. R.I.P.

There is a reason that we have organizations like Kill22 and wounded warriors. We don't do enough for our veterans. The VHA doesn't know how to deal with PTSD... pretty sad state of affairs.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

VA...right? (VHA stands for variable housing allowance).

[dckingsfan]

VA...right? (VHA stands for variable housing allowance).

hehehe, typo - yes, VA

[penbeast0]

Zonk the problem is, he didn't "end the war", he abandoned an active battlefield. Also, betrayed the trust of all of our allies in the Middle East, and ignored counsel from both the Pentagon and CIA to leave 10-30k troops behind to maintain some order and to stop Syria spilling over into Iraq. The U.S. always leaves behind a similar force. There is still one in Grenada, Germany, Phillipines, Korea, Japan etc.

Iraq is certainly Bush's legacy, however Obama has gone out of his way to foolishly make ISIS his own.

If we're going to play the blame game, let's go all the way. I get to make this up, right? No actual knowledge or facts required? Ok! Great!

The Republicans did not allow Obama the $3 trillion bailout package that we needed to guarantee a quick and full recovery from the great recession. So our economy lingered in deep recession throughout the entirety of Obama's first term, meaning we didn't have the money to support and endless and directionless interventionist Middle East policy started by the Republicans.

So Obama pretty much had no choice but to pull out of Iraq, and ISIS is the Republican's fault.

Look, it's human nature to want to point fingers. It makes us feel better about ourselves. We want to justify our racist hatred of Obama. But ISIS is a direct result of the Cold War, which is a direct result of Hitler invading the Soviet Union and forcing them to become a military superpower to survive. If you want to blame anyone for ISIS, blame Hitler.

Look, ISIS is a worldwide problem. It's not just our problem. In fact, it is mostly the EU's and the Middle East's problem. Let Saudi Arabia and the EU step up for once and contribute their fair share instead of forcing us to shoulder the whole burden.

(1) The USA has been active in the Middle East since at least the (Democratic) 1940s

(2) Stalin's military buildup started before Hitler took power in Germany and even Leninist Soviet Union was actively interventionist (they actually had a department of their government dedicated to helping foment revolution in democratic countries).

(3) The first bailout was a financial failure and often a boondoggle (as other posters have pointed out). It may have extended the recession rather than helping; the cycle of boom/recession is as old as the USA (older even).

(4) The connection between ISIS and the Cold War can be drawn but is weaker than similar connections between the rise of Isis and Ottoman governance policy, the post WWI mandate system, the radicalization of Islam in religious schools, and other similar factors

Blaming either just Republicans or just Democrats is intellectually dishonest from anyone with even a good high school education.

[popper]

You're an awfully hard man to please. Obama makes a conciliatory gesture to his predecessor whose mess he is cleaning up and you're killing him for it.

I hope you are never in a position to be judged by another person. It sucks.

I have been judged by another and came up short Zonk. Edit - I hope others can learn from my mistakes.

Romans
(21) For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened (22) Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools (23) and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.

Great, you can quote the Bible.

Didn’t mean to offend you Zonk. I’ll be sure to add the Bible to the growing list of unapproved sources here. I just thought it might contain a few nuggets of wisdom that we could all benefit from. My mistake.

BTW, have you had a chance to read Kirsten Power’s new book The Silencing; How the Left is Killing Free Speech?

[TheSecretWeapon]

I can't speak for zonker, but I'm fine with folks quoting from the Bible. I do find it interesting how often those quotes are used to condemn people for certain behaviors vs. stuff Jesus preached about loving, forgiving, not judging, etc.

[JWizmentality]

I can't speak for zonker, but I'm fine with folks quoting from the Bible. I do find it interesting how often those quotes are used to condemn people for certain behaviors vs. stuff Jesus preached about loving, forgiving, not judging, etc.

Sorry, anyone quoting the Bible loses credibility with me. The greatest interpretive book ever written. You can use it's quotes to justify any view point you like. I can pull a quote to justify slavery, rape, genocide. It's interpretation changes and evolves over time and just like the Bible thumpers of the south used it justify owning slaves, you can use it to suit your moral standing...whatever that may be.

[DCZards]

I'm fine with folks quoting the Bible, the Quran, the Bhagavad Gita or whatever scripture they believe in. Because the essential message of all of them is our Oneness.

[nate33]

I can't speak for zonker, but I'm fine with folks quoting from the Bible. I do find it interesting how often those quotes are used to condemn people for certain behaviors vs. stuff Jesus preached about loving, forgiving, not judging, etc.

Sorry, anyone quoting the Bible loses credibility with me. The greatest interpretive book ever written. You can use it's quotes to justify any view point you like. I can pull a quote to justify slavery, rape, genocide. It's interpretation changes and evolves over time and just like the Bible thumpers of the south used it justify owning slaves, you can use it to suit your moral standing...whatever that may be.

I think it's a bit harsh to suggest that quoting the Bible causes one to "lose credibility". I simply don't consider it to be all that persuasive in arguing any particular point, given the multiple interpretations.

[Zonkerbl]

Quote the Bible all you want. I will throw down with you over any topic, any source. You feel bad because I threw the Bible back in your face? YOU SHOULD.

Go back and read the Bible more carefully and maybe you won't get your rhetorical butt kicked next time.