Draft Thread: Who do you want with the 13th pick? Stanley Johnson and WCS added..change votes if you want

[bwgood77]

Phoenix Suns 2015 NBA Mock Draft Tracker

http://arizonasports.com/41/1835610/Pho ... ft-Tracker

Kaminsky leading the way.

This would be crazy. http://www.cbssports.com/nba/draft/mock ... ry-parrish

[Damkac]

Spoiler:

So, some say that trash, trash, and more trash is too much for the #4 overall? I, along with a few others, have mentioned it multiple times, and I have yet for someone to explain how exactly Bledsoe and the Twins are worth anything positive for us.

If McD could swing that trade, he'd have to be considered one of the best GMs in the league. At this point in time, Bledsoe and the Morri have negative value. Look at the facts:

- Bledsoe starts year #2 of his deal, $13.5M, or 20%, or 1/5th of our Salary Cap ($67.1M) for 2015/2016. Next year, his $14M will be just 15% of the projected $89M, which is much more 'palatable'. Right now, Bledsoe is the 7th highest paid PG in the league; he is not the 7th best PG in the league--negative value (and yes, I understand it's not that simple, but the point still remains). Bledsoe did not progress this past year, IMO, and was very 'average'--great defense, poor BBIQ.

- The Morri--plain and simple, their play regressed from the previous season. Then add in their legal trouble, and you get negative value.

- PJ is the only player in that deal with positive value, but let's face it--PJ doesn't start on over half of the NBA teams.

And so, for that, fans want NY to give up Mudiay or Russell, or Okafor, for those pieces? I'm sorry, but I just don't see it. If anything, if McD can put together that, or a similar package, to trade with Miami/Charlotte, to secure a falling prospect--maybe a Stanley Johnson or Myles Turner, then sure. But the problem is, those guys hold a lot more value to us than any other team, because those 3 are our starters, yet 2 of those 3 wouldn't start on other teams.

I hate to be a negative nancy, but 'dems are the facts'. IMO, we just need to draft 13th, and look at some trades afterwards. Or, if these PFs (Portis/Lyles/Looney/Harrell) are dropping to the late teens, then trade back and try to pick up a pick next year. But for the love of all that is right in this world, PLEASE do not draft a PG like Payne, Grant, or Tyus Jones at 13--I might lose my mind if they do.

According to ESPN Bledsoe ranks 9th in Real Plus/Minus and 6th in WAR. He is 25 and has four years left on a contract that is paying him fair market value currently. His deal will be a bargin a year from now. Everything you said about Bledsoes value is wrong.

How so? Read what I wrote again:

-Bledsoe starts year #2 of his deal--FACT
-$13.5M, or 20%, or 1/5th of our Salary Cap ($67.1M) for 2015/2016--FACT
-Right now, Bledsoe is the 7th highest paid PG in the league--FACT
-He is not the 7th best PG in the league--OPINION

And, you pretty much just wrote what I said, just in a different way. Next year, his deal will be a bargain--most likely. Once the Morri's case has been resolved and they suffer no time lost, yes, they have good value.

I think I'm not communicating very well my point, which is, at this point, both Bledsoe and the Morri do not have positive value. Next year, IF the assault charges are dropped, then absolutely, the Morri will be a bargain. Maybe even much sooner, but UNTIL the charges are dropped or they are found innocent, they do not have positive value.

Go ahead--I challenge anyone to put forth that deal, of right now--not next year, or once the Morri's case is resolved--right at his moment in time, of Bledsoe, Tucker and the Morri for the 4th overall pick in either the Knicks forum or the trade forum, and do a poll to see who 'wins' that deal. If the result after 3-4 days is that the Knicks win that deal, point it out to me, and I'll admit I was wrong. And since you and Damkac are so positive I'm wrong, you should have no issue with this.

You are ignoring 2 important things I mentioned about Bledsoe: his age and duration of his contract. Both those things are increasing his value.

[thamadkant]

Phoenix Suns 2015 NBA Mock Draft Tracker

http://arizonasports.com/41/1835610/Pho ... ft-Tracker

Kaminsky leading the way.

This would be crazy. http://www.cbssports.com/nba/draft/mock ... ry-parrish

Yeah crazy... that a 60+ win (healthy) team like Thunder gets a pretty darn good player at pick 14...

Thunder's window pretty much extended until 2020... Durant will likely stay considering the team is stacked.

[JMac1]

I see Frank being a good match for Goran, but since Bosh is an even better match, I don't see Miami picking him.

Frank has a great shot, and is fairly smart. Overall he had good numbers as well in his final season in college. I'd be happy with us taking him.

I am in Big Ten country right now for vacation. Last night some buddies and I were watching the GS and Hou game, and we all started talking basketball. All five of my buddies believe Frank is the truth; don't think he will fall outside of the top ten.

There's nothing wrong with getting a Dirk-lite player with the #13 pick. Someone who can contribute right away is what we need. We already have Bodgan and Archie as long-term projects.

Exactly!!

I don't think he will be there at 13, but who knows.

What part of the Big10 country are you in?

Both Michigan and Ohio. In-law lives in Ohio and all other relatives in Michigan 15 mins away. Going back and forth.

[JMac1]

I picked Kamisky. I don’t think any player on there is far and away clearly better than the others over Kaminsky. My three are Kaminsky, Turner, and Booker. Of the three though, nobody fits the team better than Kaminsky.

His ability on the pick and pop, catch and shoot and the glass as well as his passing to some extent make a player that combined with his maturity will be an asset within the current offense. He may have reached most of his potential already, but I project him as a stretch 4 with options to slide to the 5 in spot minutes and his ceiling to be anywhere from Love-lite, to Dirk-lite. Detractors of course could say he may just be Bargnani, which is a possibility, but Bargnani never performed on a national stage like Kamisky has. I think there is too much there that is good to help me overlook his lack of length, and his lack of man defense. I think Frank can improve his defense through his positioning.

Bledsoe/ Goodwin/ McNeal
Knight/ Green/ Bullock
Warren/ Granger/ Mook
Kamisky/ Kieff
Len/ / Asik (FA)/ Wright

I would happy watching that lineup, win or lose, I wouldn't care who would be handling the ball or shooting it the entire possession.

[bwgood77]

I picked Kamisky. I don’t think any player on there is far and away clearly better than the others over Kaminsky. My three are Kaminsky, Turner, and Booker. Of the three though, nobody fits the team better than Kaminsky.

His ability on the pick and pop, catch and shoot and the glass as well as his passing to some extent make a player that combined with his maturity will be an asset within the current offense. He may have reached most of his potential already, but I project him as a stretch 4 with options to slide to the 5 in spot minutes and his ceiling to be anywhere from Love-lite, to Dirk-lite. Detractors of course could say he may just be Bargnani, which is a possibility, but Bargnani never performed on a national stage like Kamisky has. I think there is too much there that is good to help me overlook his lack of length, and his lack of man defense. I think Frank can improve his defense through his positioning.

Bledsoe/ Goodwin/ McNeal
Knight/ Green/ Bullock
Warren/ Granger/ Mook
Kamisky/ Kieff
Len/ / Asik (FA)/ Wright

I would happy watching that lineup, win or lose, I wouldn't care who would be handling the ball or shooting it the entire possession.

If you read Zach Lowe's recent article about the state of the nba, and transition to more shooters, one thing he mentions is that a post game is valuable, but most believe that it is important to have as many good passers and shooters as possible, as well as guys who can post up when teams switch defenders and they can take advantage of the mismatch.

It seems many posters here think that they don't want a stretch four because that means the player isn't a great post up player. It mentioned that some GMs (or maybe one) liked to refer to the new best trait of a PF is one that can make plays...make the right pass, shoot from the outside AND post up.

The good thing about Kaminsky is that just because he can hit the three that isn't all he can do. He is a good post up player and also can make the right pass if needed. That lineup would be good because you would have at least three playmakers and if Warren and Bledsoe can improve their outside shot a bit, you would have a well rounded lineup, solid rebounding, good ball movement, space for the guards to drive, and Warren who is very good at moving without the ball and being in the right place at the right time.

I've also seen it mentioned that Turner isn't a perimeter player, but he can play out there and can shoot the three, but he can play inside as well.

That is why I like those two. I also picked Lyles, but he is more of a short range player....but a smart one. Ideally we have players who can post up and shoot with range AND pass. I think as long as this group has time to develop chemistry, the ball movement would flow.

I think a lot of the iso this year wasn't due to any system Hornacek wanted to run...it was because the players had not played together enough so they resorted to iso when the ball movement and plays stopped, because players were not used to playing together and hadn't developed chemistry. What the Warriors and Spurs and Cavs and Hawks have is good chemistry but they had also (other than the Cavs) been playing together long enough to develop it. The Cavs didn't have this for half the season until they worked together and had great shooters like Kyrie and JR Smith, and at least two good playmakers in LeBron and Kyrie. LeBron also makes it easier for everyone because he demands so much attention.

[kennydorglas]

I WANT MYLES TURNER

[lilfishi22]

According to ESPN Bledsoe ranks 9th in Real Plus/Minus and 6th in WAR. He is 25 and has four years left on a contract that is paying him fair market value currently. His deal will be a bargin a year from now. Everything you said about Bledsoes value is wrong.

It isn't as simple as that. The contract he was rewarded after a half-season (albeit a fantastic 40 something games) was fair at the time. He's being rewarded based on his potential and the value of the contract is stipulated on his continual improvement and hope he would eventually reach that potential.

While the cap will continue to increase, his salary will also continue to increase (at a slower rate however) and that should stipulate his continued improvement. After one season, we've seen him stagnate or he's taken a step back, depending on how you look at it. I personally haven't seen much if any improvement in his game and while his contract will never be a cap killer it will certainly make calling his deal a "bargain" more difficult over time if he doesn't improve his play.

I definitely wouldn't go as far as to say he's negative value like NavLDO did.

[RunDogGun]

According to ESPN Bledsoe ranks 9th in Real Plus/Minus and 6th in WAR. He is 25 and has four years left on a contract that is paying him fair market value currently. His deal will be a bargin a year from now. Everything you said about Bledsoes value is wrong.

It isn't as simple as that. The contract he was rewarded after a half-season (albeit a fantastic 40 something games) was fair at the time. He's being rewarded based on his potential and the value of the contract is stipulated on his continual improvement and hope he would eventually reach that potential.

While the cap will continue to increase, his salary will also continue to increase (at a slower rate however) and that should stipulate his continued improvement. After one season, we've seen him stagnate or he's taken a step back, depending on how you look at it. I personally haven't seen much if any improvement in his game and while his contract will never be a cap killer it will certainly make calling his deal a "bargain" more difficult over time if he doesn't improve his play.

I definitely wouldn't go as far as to say he's negative value like NavLDO did.

It's tough to gauge, for we aren't GMs. Bledsoe's numbers aren't too off what he had last season, which is what led to his contract. I still don't see a 17/5/6 at $14mil a negative, when we will see contracts rise. Then factor in the turmoil at the guard position we had, and many GMs might see him as a positive value.

However, since there are an abundant amount of point guards in the league with similar numbers, and if Bledsoe hadn't shown that he can be a strong defender, I could see some GMs and/or fans see him as a wash. But he is one of the better two way points in the league.

But I still don't see either our team or other teams making the trade suggested earlier.

[lilfishi22]

That's what I mean, it's definitely not negative value right now and it may never become negative but saying he's going to be a bargain in a year's time is a stretch. He's well-paid now, he's not overpaid but he has to step up his game since that is what's expected from young player, especially after being rewarded with a massive $70m deal. Don't get me wrong, 17/5/6 certainly isn't bad but if he averaged 18/5/6 on 48fg% at 24 and this year he's averaging roughly the same but on lower shooting efficiency and little to no improvement in on-court play, it's step back in my books. But we're still early in his contract and he could return with 20/7/7 next season but we can't just take the rising salary cap as a way to gauging his value.

[Saberestar]

The prevalence in youth makes trading out of the first round a possibility for the Suns.

"At some point, there is a saturation point for young players as you try to put together a team that is capable of competing and making the playoffs in the Western Conference," McDonough said after making five first-round picks in two years. "I think it (trading the pick) is something we're more open to than in the past but, at the same time, we like the players that we think will be there at 13."

http://www.azcentral.com/story/sports/n ... /27988523/

I hope this is a smokescreen, because I really think that we have a very good player waiting us at #13.

[DirtyDez]

The prevalence in youth makes trading out of the first round a possibility for the Suns.

"At some point, there is a saturation point for young players as you try to put together a team that is capable of competing and making the playoffs in the Western Conference," McDonough said after making five first-round picks in two years. "I think it (trading the pick) is something we're more open to than in the past but, at the same time, we like the players that we think will be there at 13."

http://www.azcentral.com/story/sports/n ... /27988523/

I hope this is a smokescreen, because I really think that we have a very good player waiting us at #13.

Me too. I also think we need to acquire one in the 15-18 range while keeping #13. I don't care if they're raw and don't make an impact right away.

Turner
Oubre
Booker
Hunter
RHJ
Portis

[RunDogGun]

That's what I mean, it's definitely not negative value right now and it may never become negative but saying he's going to be a bargain in a year's time is a stretch. He's well-paid now, he's not overpaid but he has to step up his game since that is what's expected from young player, especially after being rewarded with a massive $70m deal. Don't get me wrong, 17/5/6 certainly isn't bad but if he averaged 18/5/6 on 48fg% at 24 and this year he's averaging roughly the same but on lower shooting efficiency and little to no improvement in on-court play, it's step back in my books. But we're still early in his contract and he could return with 20/7/7 next season but we can't just take the rising salary cap as a way to gauging his value.

I don't know. I think a concern was whether or not he could do what he did last year, for a full season, and except for a slight dip in 2 and 3 point shooting, he did just that. He improved just as slightly from the free throw line, improved in both rebounding and assists, and doubled his block shots. He oddly took the same amount of shot attempts per game as last year.

I'm not sure yet if we can call him a projected bargain, but he may be on the cheap if he continues to increase where he has.

[lilfishi22]

Issue is, we're paying more each year with the expectation that he's going to continue to improve. If we think the best he can be is 17/5/5 (again, it's a nice stat line) then he'll be getting $12m flat but we're expecting him to get better. Not only from the stat line but also in terms of his leadership skills, his plays on the court and also in the locker room. We're paying him as if he's going to get better. Right now, I don't see that improvement. Once again, it's only the first year of his $70m deal, it's not negative value but we *should* expect to see better plays.

[NavLDO]

Spoiler:

According to ESPN Bledsoe ranks 9th in Real Plus/Minus and 6th in WAR. He is 25 and has four years left on a contract that is paying him fair market value currently. His deal will be a bargin a year from now. Everything you said about Bledsoes value is wrong.

How so? Read what I wrote again:

-Bledsoe starts year #2 of his deal--FACT
-$13.5M, or 20%, or 1/5th of our Salary Cap ($67.1M) for 2015/2016--FACT
-Right now, Bledsoe is the 7th highest paid PG in the league--FACT
-He is not the 7th best PG in the league--OPINION

And, you pretty much just wrote what I said, just in a different way. Next year, his deal will be a bargain--most likely. Once the Morri's case has been resolved and they suffer no time lost, yes, they have good value.

I think I'm not communicating very well my point, which is, at this point, both Bledsoe and the Morri do not have positive value. Next year, IF the assault charges are dropped, then absolutely, the Morri will be a bargain. Maybe even much sooner, but UNTIL the charges are dropped or they are found innocent, they do not have positive value.

Go ahead--I challenge anyone to put forth that deal, of right now--not next year, or once the Morri's case is resolved--right at his moment in time, of Bledsoe, Tucker and the Morri for the 4th overall pick in either the Knicks forum or the trade forum, and do a poll to see who 'wins' that deal. If the result after 3-4 days is that the Knicks win that deal, point it out to me, and I'll admit I was wrong. And since you and Damkac are so positive I'm wrong, you should have no issue with this.

You are ignoring 2 important things I mentioned about Bledsoe: his age and duration of his contract. Both those things are increasing his value.

Absolutely--I'm not ignoring those aspects at all. They do increase his value. But to me, he didn't do enough last year to prove he could take a team to the next level. A young, above average PG locked up for 4 more years is still, overall, just an above average PG that a team is paying 20% of their Cap for this year--that's $36M when added with Anthony, which leaves $30M for at least 11 other guys, which adding in PJ/Morri, leaves just $12M for 8 other players. So even at $13.5M, you'd think that was a pretty good deal. But I just don't think at this point, it is a good deal--or at least, not 'good enough' of a deal, when factoring everything else in.

To me, those players hold a lot more value to us than they do to NY. As RunDog said, that is 3 starters on our team from last year--on the Knicks? That's 1 starter--maybe 2, but only if Kieff's legal troubles pan out, which at this point, no one knows.

Again, I have no problem admitting I'm wrong, but IMO, more fans outside Phx would agree that the number 4 overall pick in this draft is worth more than a pkg of the Morri, EB, and PJ. We'd have to add in our 13 and/or Miami's 2016 pick, and probably still have to take back a contract or two, to make it worthwhile. In fact, we'd have better luck sealing that deal by leaving the Morri out--no GM is going to want to take on that headache until it is resolved.

[NavLDO]

Issue is, we're paying more each year with the expectation that he's going to continue to improve. If we think the best he can be is 17/5/5 (again, it's a nice stat line) then he'll be getting $12m flat but we're expecting him to get better. Not only from the stat line but also in terms of his leadership skills, his plays on the court and also in the locker room. We're paying him as if he's going to get better. Right now, I don't see that improvement. Once again, it's only the first year of his $70m deal, it's not negative value but we *should* expect to see better plays.

I can capitulate on the whole negative value thing. That's not really the crux of my argument, so I have no problem admitting I overstated his 'status', but still, I agree wholeheartedly with your assessment of the situation.

And in response to what McD said, about trading out of 13, that scares me, unless they are active in FA--we need to improve, so if they can trade the 13 pick for a better-than-average PF, than fine, but if it's for more picks next year or later, I would not be pleased.

[bwgood77]

Spoiler:

How so? Read what I wrote again:

-Bledsoe starts year #2 of his deal--FACT
-$13.5M, or 20%, or 1/5th of our Salary Cap ($67.1M) for 2015/2016--FACT
-Right now, Bledsoe is the 7th highest paid PG in the league--FACT
-He is not the 7th best PG in the league--OPINION

And, you pretty much just wrote what I said, just in a different way. Next year, his deal will be a bargain--most likely. Once the Morri's case has been resolved and they suffer no time lost, yes, they have good value.

I think I'm not communicating very well my point, which is, at this point, both Bledsoe and the Morri do not have positive value. Next year, IF the assault charges are dropped, then absolutely, the Morri will be a bargain. Maybe even much sooner, but UNTIL the charges are dropped or they are found innocent, they do not have positive value.

Go ahead--I challenge anyone to put forth that deal, of right now--not next year, or once the Morri's case is resolved--right at his moment in time, of Bledsoe, Tucker and the Morri for the 4th overall pick in either the Knicks forum or the trade forum, and do a poll to see who 'wins' that deal. If the result after 3-4 days is that the Knicks win that deal, point it out to me, and I'll admit I was wrong. And since you and Damkac are so positive I'm wrong, you should have no issue with this.

You are ignoring 2 important things I mentioned about Bledsoe: his age and duration of his contract. Both those things are increasing his value.

Absolutely--I'm not ignoring those aspects at all. They do increase his value. But to me, he didn't do enough last year to prove he could take a team to the next level. A young, above average PG locked up for 4 more years is still, overall, just an above average PG that a team is paying 20% of their Cap for this year--that's $36M when added with Anthony, which leaves $30M for at least 11 other guys, which adding in PJ/Morri, leaves just $12M for 8 other players. So even at $13.5M, you'd think that was a pretty good deal. But I just don't think at this point, it is a good deal--or at least, not 'good enough' of a deal, when factoring everything else in.

To me, those players hold a lot more value to us than they do to NY. As RunDog said, that is 3 starters on our team from last year--on the Knicks? That's 1 starter--maybe 2, but only if Kieff's legal troubles pan out, which at this point, no one knows.

Again, I have no problem admitting I'm wrong, but IMO, more fans outside Phx would agree that the number 4 overall pick in this draft is worth more than a pkg of the Morri, EB, and PJ. We'd have to add in our 13 and/or Miami's 2016 pick, and probably still have to take back a contract or two, to make it worthwhile. In fact, we'd have better luck sealing that deal by leaving the Morri out--no GM is going to want to take on that headache until it is resolved.

More fans might, but that is only because people become overly infatuated with the draft. There is probably a 25% chance that pick is a bust, and a 30% chance it is just a pretty good rotation player. The last four #4 picks have been Aaron Gordon, Cody Zeller, Dion Waiters and Tristan Thompson. I wouldn't exactly call those guys studs at this point by any means. I wouldn't rather have any of them than the package you'd want to give up.

[bwgood77]

Issue is, we're paying more each year with the expectation that he's going to continue to improve. If we think the best he can be is 17/5/5 (again, it's a nice stat line) then he'll be getting $12m flat but we're expecting him to get better. Not only from the stat line but also in terms of his leadership skills, his plays on the court and also in the locker room. We're paying him as if he's going to get better. Right now, I don't see that improvement. Once again, it's only the first year of his $70m deal, it's not negative value but we *should* expect to see better plays.

I can capitulate on the whole negative value thing. That's not really the crux of my argument, so I have no problem admitting I overstated his 'status', but still, I agree wholeheartedly with your assessment of the situation.

And in response to what McD said, about trading out of 13, that scares me, unless they are active in FA--we need to improve, so if they can trade the 13 pick for a better-than-average PF, than fine, but if it's for more picks next year or later, I would not be pleased.

It may depend on who is there. Say Turner and Kaminsky are the guys he wants, and they are gone, and no one else stands out a ton over others at that point. He could then potentially trade down, still get a similar player and add an asset at the same time.

[RunDogGun]

Issue is, we're paying more each year with the expectation that he's going to continue to improve. If we think the best he can be is 17/5/5 (again, it's a nice stat line) then he'll be getting $12m flat but we're expecting him to get better. Not only from the stat line but also in terms of his leadership skills, his plays on the court and also in the locker room. We're paying him as if he's going to get better. Right now, I don't see that improvement. Once again, it's only the first year of his $70m deal, it's not negative value but we *should* expect to see better plays.

I can capitulate on the whole negative value thing. That's not really the crux of my argument, so I have no problem admitting I overstated his 'status', but still, I agree wholeheartedly with your assessment of the situation.

And in response to what McD said, about trading out of 13, that scares me, unless they are active in FA--we need to improve, so if they can trade the 13 pick for a better-than-average PF, than fine, but if it's for more picks next year or later, I would not be pleased.

It could just be an easy way to get teams to start calling to make deals. I think it's the same way NY made their pick open for discussion, instead of calling teams. Just cast a line out, and see which fish bite.

[RunDogGun]

Sort of off subject, but Bgwood, what do you think of the FIFA corruption indictments? Still think corporations would not risk their name and reputations?