All-Season Player of the Year Discussion thread

[RSCD3_]

Finally, playoff performance through 3 rounds of the two finalists.

Warriors Postseason (15 G)

+10.9 SRS, +6.7 Offense, -4.7 Defense

Cavaliers Postseason (14 G)

+11.1 SRS, +8.6 Offense, -4.2 Defense

Cleveland has played an HCA adjusted schedule of +2.33 SRS, GSW has played an HCA adjusted schedule of +2.82 SRS. Cleveland faced the Bulls with Gasol missing some time and the Hawks with some injuries as well, though notably Love and Kyrie have been out and hobbled as well, while Smith missed two games. GSW played Memphis with Conley and Allen missing some time and not playing at 100%, and Curry missed time and played <100% in the most recent games due to his fall.

Cleveland has faced an average opponent ORTG of 107.1 and DRTG of 104.0. GSW has faced an average opponent ORTG of 106.8 and DRTG of 104.0. Cleveland has posted a +8.6 offense/-4.2 defense vs. their schedule, GSW has been at +6.7/-4.7. Overall, Cleveland has posted a +11.1 SRS through 14 games, GSW has posted a +10.9.

clearly GS will absolutely destroy the cavaliers, they'll give them less of a fight than the pelicans

[E-Balla]

So I'm reading/listening to a surprising amount of people who have a much higher opinion of this Cavs team than I do, both in general and specifically in their capacity as a Warriors opponent.

What do you guys think is gonna happen in this series?

I wouldn't be surprised if the Warriors won in 4. Yes, a sweep. LeBron is great and all, but it may be 2014 finals all over again, but even worse for LeBron's team (and 2015 James isn't as good as 2014, either).

Right now I would say Warriors in 5, but it might be a sweep. Cavs being able to win two games would really surprise me. Let's put it this way - I think Warriors in 4 is more likely than Warriors in 6.

My exact thoughts. If Cleveland wins the Warriors have to completely breakdown. They've been winning with Klay playing horribly but they'll need Curry to stink for 4 games to win IMO especially with Kyrie the way he is.

[RSCD3_]

i have to say as a lebron fan im glad its not SA in the finals again.

Curry;s my second favorite player so no matter what happens I'll be reasonably OK

Either curry makes barkley choke on his analysis and completes a cinderella run or lebron lifts a curse thats last for half a century and is immortalized. Im still pulling for the Cavs here but damn GS is hard to hate.

Also my top 5 as of now

Curry
James
Harden
Paul
Davis

[PaulieWal]

I am surprised at the number of people saying Cavs in 6 or 7. If both teams were at full strength I'd understand but this is a Cavs team with no Love and a hobbled Irving. I think GSW takes it in 5-6. Cavs will probably take 1 or 2 but if the Cavs win this it has to be one of the biggest upsets in the history of the game.

[sp6r=underrated]

I am surprised at the number of people saying Cavs in 6 or 7. If both teams were at full strength I'd understand but this is a Cavs team with no Love and a hobbled Irving. I think GSW takes it in 5-6. Cavs will probably take 1 or 2 but if the Cavs win this it has to be one of the biggest upsets in the history of the game.

The votes for Cleveland are due to the Jordan Myth that you should always pick the team with the best player. This is a grossly lopsided match-up that could be a strong beatdown. I would not be shocked if it is as bad as last year's final

[Doctor MJ]

I am surprised at the number of people saying Cavs in 6 or 7. If both teams were at full strength I'd understand but this is a Cavs team with no Love and a hobbled Irving. I think GSW takes it in 5-6. Cavs will probably take 1 or 2 but if the Cavs win this it has to be one of the biggest upsets in the history of the game.

If the Cavs win the series I think we're all going to need to really think about how it happened. It's tempting to just jump on a "LeBron is God" bandwagon, but we know it's not that simple.

As to the sports radio type population all being the "I'm the only one who thinks the Cavs have a shot", and it seems like all of them at least say it will be close and some give it to the Cavs, I think they clearly are buying into that LeBron-centric perspective even if they don't know it. They can talk about Tristan Thompson and all the rest, but no one serious would look at that supporting cast and say it looks that impressive, so in the end it's about LeBron and about his team having won 7 in a row.

I have to say, I don't want the Cavs to win unless they look good doing it. If somehow the Warriors are hurt and then the Cavs can brute force their way to a title, it bugs me not because I think the Warriors deserve the win, but because I just think the Cavs need to get better before they are seriously at an NBA championship level. A title this year means quality of play sucked and that the Cavs are encouraged to close ranks and just keep doing what they are doing. So that's my bias. I want the Warriors to when in a sense, only because I think that might mean we see something great.

What do I expect? Well I'm definitely picking the Warriors. I'll take them in 6. But I think so much of it is contingent on how the teams handle each other, and I don't know how that will be. The Cavs lately have just relied on there being so much focus on LeBron that they can succeed by playmaking an gaps in the box out. The Warriors need to find a better balance than that. On the other side of things, I think the reality is that the vaunted murder's row of scoring options for the Warriors hasn't shown up in the playoffs. It's been the Curry show, and the concern with that is if you truly have to depend on Curry to score like that, you have to wonder if the defense can really do a number on his slight frame.

[PaulieWal]

I am surprised at the number of people saying Cavs in 6 or 7. If both teams were at full strength I'd understand but this is a Cavs team with no Love and a hobbled Irving. I think GSW takes it in 5-6. Cavs will probably take 1 or 2 but if the Cavs win this it has to be one of the biggest upsets in the history of the game.

If the Cavs win the series I think we're all going to need to really think about how it happened. It's tempting to just jump on a "LeBron is God" bandwagon, but we know it's not that simple.

As to the sports radio type population all being the "I'm the only one who thinks the Cavs have a shot", and it seems like all of them at least say it will be close and some give it to the Cavs, I think they clearly are buying into that LeBron-centric perspective even if they don't know it. They can talk about Tristan Thompson and all the rest, but no one serious would look at that supporting cast and say it looks that impressive, so in the end it's about LeBron and about his team having won 7 in a row.

I have to say, I don't want the Cavs to win unless they look good doing it. If somehow the Warriors are hurt and then the Cavs can brute force their way to a title, it bugs me not because I think the Warriors deserve the win, but because I just think the Cavs need to get better before they are seriously at an NBA championship level. A title this year means quality of play sucked and that the Cavs are encouraged to close ranks and just keep doing what they are doing. So that's my bias. I want the Warriors to when in a sense, only because I think that might mean we see something great.

What do I expect? Well I'm definitely picking the Warriors. I'll take them in 6. But I think so much of it is contingent on how the teams handle each other, and I don't know how that will be. The Cavs lately have just relied on there being so much focus on LeBron that they can succeed by playmaking an gaps in the box out. The Warriors need to find a better balance than that. On the other side of things, I think the reality is that the vaunted murder's row of scoring options for the Warriors hasn't shown up in the playoffs. It's been the Curry show, and the concern with that is if you truly have to depend on Curry to score like that, you have to wonder if the defense can really do a number on his slight frame.

Let's be honest here, Cavs' best option is having Dellavedova take out Curry's ankles (please protect those ankles God) (half-serious here).

More seriously, I agree with everything you say here and I am a little bit confused why this is happening. Last year I remember the media was taking the Heat as underdogs and rightfully so but this year there is something weird going on. I think it's mostly because the Warriors still have to "prove" themselves. I know some around here are high on this LeBron but to me 14 LeBron was easily much better than this LeBron and the Heat still only won 1 game. I think this is going to end in 5 or 6 with the Warriors winning it without much trouble.

[JLei]

I am surprised at the number of people saying Cavs in 6 or 7. If both teams were at full strength I'd understand but this is a Cavs team with no Love and a hobbled Irving. I think GSW takes it in 5-6. Cavs will probably take 1 or 2 but if the Cavs win this it has to be one of the biggest upsets in the history of the game.

If the Cavs win the series I think we're all going to need to really think about how it happened. It's tempting to just jump on a "LeBron is God" bandwagon, but we know it's not that simple.

As to the sports radio type population all being the "I'm the only one who thinks the Cavs have a shot", and it seems like all of them at least say it will be close and some give it to the Cavs, I think they clearly are buying into that LeBron-centric perspective even if they don't know it. They can talk about Tristan Thompson and all the rest, but no one serious would look at that supporting cast and say it looks that impressive, so in the end it's about LeBron and about his team having won 7 in a row.

I have to say, I don't want the Cavs to win unless they look good doing it. If somehow the Warriors are hurt and then the Cavs can brute force their way to a title, it bugs me not because I think the Warriors deserve the win, but because I just think the Cavs need to get better before they are seriously at an NBA championship level. A title this year means quality of play sucked and that the Cavs are encouraged to close ranks and just keep doing what they are doing. So that's my bias. I want the Warriors to when in a sense, only because I think that might mean we see something great.

What do I expect? Well I'm definitely picking the Warriors. I'll take them in 6. But I think so much of it is contingent on how the teams handle each other, and I don't know how that will be. The Cavs lately have just relied on there being so much focus on LeBron that they can succeed by playmaking an gaps in the box out. The Warriors need to find a better balance than that. On the other side of things, I think the reality is that the vaunted murder's row of scoring options for the Warriors hasn't shown up in the playoffs. It's been the Curry show, and the concern with that is if you truly have to depend on Curry to score like that, you have to wonder if the defense can really do a number on his slight frame.

Let's be honest here, Cavs' best option is having Dellavedova take out Curry's ankles (please protect those ankles God) (half-serious here).

More seriously, I agree with everything you say here and I am a little bit confused why this is happening. Last year I remember the media was taking the Heat as underdogs and rightfully so but this year there is something weird going on. I think it's mostly because the Warriors still have to "prove" themselves. I know some around here are high on this LeBron but to me 14 LeBron was easily much better than this LeBron and the Heat still only won 1 game. I think this is going to end in 5 or 6 with the Warriors winning it without much trouble.

Global impact wise. This Lebron is pretty close. 14 Bron was like a lot better on offense but this Bron has been much better on defense. (14 Bron was like a 6.5/.75-1 and 15 Bron is like a 5/2).

People looking at that 14 series need to understand the variance a bit. On average I don't think those Spurs were as dominating against that particular Heat team as they looked by the end. They shot the living daylights out of the ball for like 8 straight quarters. It was absolutely ridiculous and I don't know if you'll ever see that again. With average shooting that series was probably a comfortable Spurs in 6 but not quite the annihilation you saw. Heat could have won game 1 and were in game 3 (within 8 in the 3rd and put up a 109 ortg) despite Spurs having 100TS% through like 20 minutes of game time. They absolutely tore apart the D but that was an outlier performance over 2 games for sure.

[MisterHibachi]

Going into the finals:

1. Curry
2. LeBron
3. CP
4. Harden
5. Davis

I doubt LeBron overtakes Curry so this might just be my final ballot. But anything can happen. Cleveland winning the title would most certainly necessitate a level of play from LeBron that would put him atop my ballot.

[PaulieWal]

Global impact wise. This Lebron is pretty close. 14 Bron was like a lot better on offense but this Bron has been much better on defense. (14 Bron was like a 6.5/.75-1 and 15 Bron is like a 5/2).

People looking at that 14 series need to understand the variance a bit. On average I don't think those Spurs were as dominating against that particular Heat team as they looked by the end. They shot the living daylights out of the ball for like 8 straight quarters. It was absolutely ridiculous and I don't know if you'll ever see that again. With average shooting that series was probably a comfortable Spurs in 6 but not quite the annihilation you saw. Heat could have won game 1 and were in game 3 (within 8 in the 3rd and put up a 109 ortg) despite Spurs having 100TS% through like 20 minutes of game time. They absolutely tore apart the D but that was an outlier performance over 2 games for sure.

Yeah, I agree the Spurs did get pretty hot for those 3 games and if the two teams play again the Spurs win again but probably a more balanced 6 games IMO.

Regarding LeBron, playoffs only 14 LeBron is much better than 15 LeBron. His offense was otherworldly and his defense was pretty good as well. If you think 15 LeBron playoffs is close to 14 LeBron PS then we'll have to disagree.

[Clyde Frazier]

I am surprised at the number of people saying Cavs in 6 or 7. If both teams were at full strength I'd understand but this is a Cavs team with no Love and a hobbled Irving. I think GSW takes it in 5-6. Cavs will probably take 1 or 2 but if the Cavs win this it has to be one of the biggest upsets in the history of the game.

It's kinda funny… you have a bunch of people claiming that his path to the finals was a cakewalk, and we should've expected nothing less even with love out and a hobbled kyrie. Then you have people saying the cavs have no chance and the warriors are going to wipe the floor with them. At the very least, it's becoming clear we just can't count a team with lebron out at this point in his career.

I just wonder how much people watched lebron's road to the finals. After round one, it was pretty damn ugly. He got it done, which is the most impressive part, but he dragged them there. It was by no means easy. I'm leaning towards warriors in 6, but hey… we now have a week to think about it!

[PaulieWal]

I am surprised at the number of people saying Cavs in 6 or 7. If both teams were at full strength I'd understand but this is a Cavs team with no Love and a hobbled Irving. I think GSW takes it in 5-6. Cavs will probably take 1 or 2 but if the Cavs win this it has to be one of the biggest upsets in the history of the game.

It's kinda funny… you have a bunch of people claiming that his path to the finals was a cakewalk, and we should've expected nothing less even with love out and a hobbled kyrie. Then you have people saying the cavs have no chance and the warriors are going to wipe the floor with them. At the very least, it's becoming clear we just can't count a team with lebron out at this point in his career.

I just wonder how much people watched lebron's road to the finals. After round one, it was pretty damn ugly. He got it done, which is the most impressive part, but he dragged them there. It was by no means easy. I'm leaning towards warriors in 6, but hey… we now have a week to think about it!

That just shows the bipolar nature of online forums and the public discourse in the age of social media. GB is Ground Zero for #hottakes after every playoff game.

Both are true, the East is still weak but Cavs/LeBron deserve a ton of credit for going through the Bulls and Hawks with no Love and a hobbled Kyrie.

All of that being said I think a large part of the media/fans still underrate GSW because they are a team that's "unproven", shoots jumpshots, and truly don't understand how dominant that team has been.

[Clyde Frazier]

I am surprised at the number of people saying Cavs in 6 or 7. If both teams were at full strength I'd understand but this is a Cavs team with no Love and a hobbled Irving. I think GSW takes it in 5-6. Cavs will probably take 1 or 2 but if the Cavs win this it has to be one of the biggest upsets in the history of the game.

It's kinda funny… you have a bunch of people claiming that his path to the finals was a cakewalk, and we should've expected nothing less even with love out and a hobbled kyrie. Then you have people saying the cavs have no chance and the warriors are going to wipe the floor with them. At the very least, it's becoming clear we just can't count a team with lebron out at this point in his career.

I just wonder how much people watched lebron's road to the finals. After round one, it was pretty damn ugly. He got it done, which is the most impressive part, but he dragged them there. It was by no means easy. I'm leaning towards warriors in 6, but hey… we now have a week to think about it!

That just shows the bipolar nature of online forums and the public discourse in the age of social media. GB is Ground Zero for #hottakes after every playoff game.

Both are true, the East is still weak but Cavs/LeBron deserve a ton of credit for going through the Bulls and Hawks with no Love and a hobbled Kyrie.

All of that being said I think a large part of the media/fans still underrate GSW because they are a team that's "unproven", shoots jumpshots, and truly don't understand how dominant that team has been.

Yeah i mean don't get me started on snap judgments… it's easily one of the most annoying things about being a sports fan who spends a lot of time online.

And agreed on GSW. You still have people who fail to acknowledge how good they are defensively, just because they shoot a lot of 3s. Not to mention that they get plenty of easy baskets in the paint with their great ball movement. Or that their bench is extremely versatile. It can get frustrating.

[Texas Chuck]

It's kinda funny… you have a bunch of people claiming that his path to the finals was a cakewalk, and we should've expected nothing less even with love out and a hobbled kyrie. Then you have people saying the cavs have no chance and the warriors are going to wipe the floor with them. At the very least, it's becoming clear we just can't count a team with lebron out at this point in his career.

I just wonder how much people watched lebron's road to the finals. After round one, it was pretty damn ugly. He got it done, which is the most impressive part, but he dragged them there. It was by no means easy. I'm leaning towards warriors in 6, but hey… we now have a week to think about it!

Yeah this is essentially the point I was making last week when I asserted we shouldn't be ignoring Lebron and focusing so heavily on Paul and Harden behind Curry. I know some just want to trash the East. The same guys preaching how great the Hawks were all year now describing them as obvious pretenders that we all should have known etc... but Lebron's performance has been tremendous. I know his efficiency is down but he's been really really good.

And yeah the bottom line for me is this: Lebron gives you a chance every year. The Cavs (and Heat last year) aren't teh best team in the Association especially not with a hobbled Kyrie and to a lessor extent missing Love, but Lebron still makes it possible. I expect the Warriors to win, but I totally disagree with Doc's assertion that the Cavs aren't worthy champions. They don't give style points. Any team that wins 16 games in the tournament is worthy.

[bondom34]

I am surprised at the number of people saying Cavs in 6 or 7. If both teams were at full strength I'd understand but this is a Cavs team with no Love and a hobbled Irving. I think GSW takes it in 5-6. Cavs will probably take 1 or 2 but if the Cavs win this it has to be one of the biggest upsets in the history of the game.

It's kinda funny… you have a bunch of people claiming that his path to the finals was a cakewalk, and we should've expected nothing less even with love out and a hobbled kyrie. Then you have people saying the cavs have no chance and the warriors are going to wipe the floor with them. At the very least, it's becoming clear we just can't count a team with lebron out at this point in his career.

I just wonder how much people watched lebron's road to the finals. After round one, it was pretty damn ugly. He got it done, which is the most impressive part, but he dragged them there. It was by no means easy. I'm leaning towards warriors in 6, but hey… we now have a week to think about it!

Kinda where I'm at too, they're just too well rounded a team. If Cleveland was 100 percent it would have been a little more interesting, but they're not, and I'll never count them out but don't expect them to win it. At the same time, this is also why I got frustrated in the KD/Curry thread. But meh, whatever.

[JLei]

Global impact wise. This Lebron is pretty close. 14 Bron was like a lot better on offense but this Bron has been much better on defense. (14 Bron was like a 6.5/.75-1 and 15 Bron is like a 5/2).

People looking at that 14 series need to understand the variance a bit. On average I don't think those Spurs were as dominating against that particular Heat team as they looked by the end. They shot the living daylights out of the ball for like 8 straight quarters. It was absolutely ridiculous and I don't know if you'll ever see that again. With average shooting that series was probably a comfortable Spurs in 6 but not quite the annihilation you saw. Heat could have won game 1 and were in game 3 (within 8 in the 3rd and put up a 109 ortg) despite Spurs having 100TS% through like 20 minutes of game time. They absolutely tore apart the D but that was an outlier performance over 2 games for sure.

Yeah, I agree the Spurs did get pretty hot for those 3 games and if the two teams play again the Spurs win again but probably a more balanced 6 games IMO.

Regarding LeBron, playoffs only 14 LeBron is much better than 15 LeBron. His offense was otherworldly and his defense was pretty good as well. If you think 15 LeBron playoffs is close to 14 LeBron PS then we'll have to disagree.

Reflects the disappointment I had in his defense last year and how impressed I've been with it this year.

The offense is a significant gap. 6.5 is touching GOAT level. We are in agreement there.

[Doctor MJ]

If the Cavs win the series I think we're all going to need to really think about how it happened. It's tempting to just jump on a "LeBron is God" bandwagon, but we know it's not that simple.

As to the sports radio type population all being the "I'm the only one who thinks the Cavs have a shot", and it seems like all of them at least say it will be close and some give it to the Cavs, I think they clearly are buying into that LeBron-centric perspective even if they don't know it. They can talk about Tristan Thompson and all the rest, but no one serious would look at that supporting cast and say it looks that impressive, so in the end it's about LeBron and about his team having won 7 in a row.

I have to say, I don't want the Cavs to win unless they look good doing it. If somehow the Warriors are hurt and then the Cavs can brute force their way to a title, it bugs me not because I think the Warriors deserve the win, but because I just think the Cavs need to get better before they are seriously at an NBA championship level. A title this year means quality of play sucked and that the Cavs are encouraged to close ranks and just keep doing what they are doing. So that's my bias. I want the Warriors to when in a sense, only because I think that might mean we see something great.

What do I expect? Well I'm definitely picking the Warriors. I'll take them in 6. But I think so much of it is contingent on how the teams handle each other, and I don't know how that will be. The Cavs lately have just relied on there being so much focus on LeBron that they can succeed by playmaking an gaps in the box out. The Warriors need to find a better balance than that. On the other side of things, I think the reality is that the vaunted murder's row of scoring options for the Warriors hasn't shown up in the playoffs. It's been the Curry show, and the concern with that is if you truly have to depend on Curry to score like that, you have to wonder if the defense can really do a number on his slight frame.

Let's be honest here, Cavs' best option is having Dellavedova take out Curry's ankles (please protect those ankles God) (half-serious here).

More seriously, I agree with everything you say here and I am a little bit confused why this is happening. Last year I remember the media was taking the Heat as underdogs and rightfully so but this year there is something weird going on. I think it's mostly because the Warriors still have to "prove" themselves. I know some around here are high on this LeBron but to me 14 LeBron was easily much better than this LeBron and the Heat still only won 1 game. I think this is going to end in 5 or 6 with the Warriors winning it without much trouble.

Global impact wise. This Lebron is pretty close. 14 Bron was like a lot better on offense but this Bron has been much better on defense. (14 Bron was like a 6.5/.75-1 and 15 Bron is like a 5/2).

People looking at that 14 series need to understand the variance a bit. On average I don't think those Spurs were as dominating against that particular Heat team as they looked by the end. They shot the living daylights out of the ball for like 8 straight quarters. It was absolutely ridiculous and I don't know if you'll ever see that again. With average shooting that series was probably a comfortable Spurs in 6 but not quite the annihilation you saw. Heat could have won game 1 and were in game 3 (within 8 in the 3rd and put up a 109 ortg) despite Spurs having 100TS% through like 20 minutes of game time. They absolutely tore apart the D but that was an outlier performance over 2 games for sure.

Here's the thing though: The Cavs have DESTROYED opponents with LeBron off the floor. And before you say "that's small sample size, don't take it too seriously", remember that the reason we say that is that we try not to overreact to such things in the face of other evidence to the contrary. That's not the case here. Here we have LeBron shooting at horrendous efficiency, injured and clearly hampered, and were wondering how the hell the Cavs have been this effective. And the answer in terms of LeBron is that it isn't really about LeBron. The Cavs have been destroyed their opponents at an even higher rate when LeBron goes to the bench.

This obviously doesn't mean that LeBron is something other than his team's MVP, but if LeBron had seen his team perform like that when he went to the bench in his previous time in Cleveland, he'd have gotten through the East in a breeze. As such I think if there's any urge to try to figure out how LeBron might be "just as effective" with his non-scoring improvements this post-season, I'd say that needs to be held off. By objective measures, LeBron's supporting cast in this off-season has been as effective and then some as you could possibly with for from literally any supporting cast, and this is why LeBron is where he is now. To the extent that's fool's gold, well as soon as the luck ends the Cavs will get crushed. And if it doesn't maybe LeBron adds another Finals MVP to his collection. Either way, we simply cannot go at all mystical about LeBron "finding a way".

And I say this as a guy who has said LeBron can still earn his #1 spot this year and it isn't anything of a moonshot. I'll never count LeBron out, and by any other player's standards he's been amazing, but no, I don't think he's been as strong in these playoffs as he has been in the past or anything like that.

[JLei]

Let's be honest here, Cavs' best option is having Dellavedova take out Curry's ankles (please protect those ankles God) (half-serious here).

More seriously, I agree with everything you say here and I am a little bit confused why this is happening. Last year I remember the media was taking the Heat as underdogs and rightfully so but this year there is something weird going on. I think it's mostly because the Warriors still have to "prove" themselves. I know some around here are high on this LeBron but to me 14 LeBron was easily much better than this LeBron and the Heat still only won 1 game. I think this is going to end in 5 or 6 with the Warriors winning it without much trouble.

Global impact wise. This Lebron is pretty close. 14 Bron was like a lot better on offense but this Bron has been much better on defense. (14 Bron was like a 6.5/.75-1 and 15 Bron is like a 5/2).

People looking at that 14 series need to understand the variance a bit. On average I don't think those Spurs were as dominating against that particular Heat team as they looked by the end. They shot the living daylights out of the ball for like 8 straight quarters. It was absolutely ridiculous and I don't know if you'll ever see that again. With average shooting that series was probably a comfortable Spurs in 6 but not quite the annihilation you saw. Heat could have won game 1 and were in game 3 (within 8 in the 3rd and put up a 109 ortg) despite Spurs having 100TS% through like 20 minutes of game time. They absolutely tore apart the D but that was an outlier performance over 2 games for sure.

Here's the thing though: The Cavs have DESTROYED opponents with LeBron off the floor. And before you say "that's small sample size, don't take it too seriously", remember that the reason we say that is that we try not to overreact to such things in the face of other evidence to the contrary. That's not the case here. Here we have LeBron shooting at horrendous efficiency, injured and clearly hampered, and were wondering how the hell the Cavs have been this effective. And the answer in terms of LeBron is that it isn't really about LeBron. The Cavs have been destroyed their opponents at an even higher rate when LeBron goes to the bench.

This obviously doesn't mean that LeBron is something other than his team's MVP, but if LeBron had seen his team perform like that when he went to the bench in his previous time in Cleveland, he'd have gotten through the East in a breeze. As such I think if there's any urge to try to figure out how LeBron might be "just as effective" with his non-scoring improvements this post-season, I'd say that needs to be held off. By objective measures, LeBron's supporting cast in this off-season has been as effective and then some as you could possibly with for from literally any supporting cast, and this is why LeBron is where he is now. To the extent that's fool's gold, well as soon as the luck ends the Cavs will get crushed. And if it doesn't maybe LeBron adds another Finals MVP to his collection. Either way, we simply cannot go at all mystical about LeBron "finding a way".

And I say this as a guy who has said LeBron can still earn his #1 spot this year and it isn't anything of a moonshot. I'll never count LeBron out, and by any other player's standards he's been amazing, but no, I don't think he's been as strong in these playoffs as he has been in the past or anything like that.

I will say immediately SMALL SAMPLE SIZE that's jumping to some conclusions that you even know you are better than to say. Also especially in the playoffs teams take their best defensive lineups out when Lebron leaves the floor to conserve their energy (Jimmy, George, Kawhi/ their rim protector immediately come off the floor when Lebron sits and come right back in when he checks back in). Especially in the playoffs teams adjust their rotations way more towards the opponent way more than keeping the rotation in the regular season.

Also I think you are responding to my earlier comments in the thread when I specifically mention here through my O rating of +5 that this is probably the worst he's been offensively since pretty much 11. His defense this year is why I think his global impact is still pretty much makes him the best player in the league and why it's close to last year (he was meh on D but better in the 14 playoffs). I'm probably as pro Curry as anyone can get I think his offensive level is rare at this point (above peak Durant, Dirk, Kobe and at worst on their level) . I just also happen to think he's closer to a 0 defender despite than what his RPM says.

Back to Bron's D it has been extremely impressive post break/ 15 playoffs. The reads he's making are brainy again, crazy amounts of energy and he's cleaning the glass and just really good at sliding the nail and rotating down on bigs that have allowed Tristan to be super aggressive on the pick and roll with his mobility showing/ blitzing a lot. I was pretty much one of the first ones who was calling him out last year when his D went to **** so it has taken quite a huge improvement for it to impress me.

[Doctor MJ]

Global impact wise. This Lebron is pretty close. 14 Bron was like a lot better on offense but this Bron has been much better on defense. (14 Bron was like a 6.5/.75-1 and 15 Bron is like a 5/2).

People looking at that 14 series need to understand the variance a bit. On average I don't think those Spurs were as dominating against that particular Heat team as they looked by the end. They shot the living daylights out of the ball for like 8 straight quarters. It was absolutely ridiculous and I don't know if you'll ever see that again. With average shooting that series was probably a comfortable Spurs in 6 but not quite the annihilation you saw. Heat could have won game 1 and were in game 3 (within 8 in the 3rd and put up a 109 ortg) despite Spurs having 100TS% through like 20 minutes of game time. They absolutely tore apart the D but that was an outlier performance over 2 games for sure.

Here's the thing though: The Cavs have DESTROYED opponents with LeBron off the floor. And before you say "that's small sample size, don't take it too seriously", remember that the reason we say that is that we try not to overreact to such things in the face of other evidence to the contrary. That's not the case here. Here we have LeBron shooting at horrendous efficiency, injured and clearly hampered, and were wondering how the hell the Cavs have been this effective. And the answer in terms of LeBron is that it isn't really about LeBron. The Cavs have been destroyed their opponents at an even higher rate when LeBron goes to the bench.

This obviously doesn't mean that LeBron is something other than his team's MVP, but if LeBron had seen his team perform like that when he went to the bench in his previous time in Cleveland, he'd have gotten through the East in a breeze. As such I think if there's any urge to try to figure out how LeBron might be "just as effective" with his non-scoring improvements this post-season, I'd say that needs to be held off. By objective measures, LeBron's supporting cast in this off-season has been as effective and then some as you could possibly with for from literally any supporting cast, and this is why LeBron is where he is now. To the extent that's fool's gold, well as soon as the luck ends the Cavs will get crushed. And if it doesn't maybe LeBron adds another Finals MVP to his collection. Either way, we simply cannot go at all mystical about LeBron "finding a way".

And I say this as a guy who has said LeBron can still earn his #1 spot this year and it isn't anything of a moonshot. I'll never count LeBron out, and by any other player's standards he's been amazing, but no, I don't think he's been as strong in these playoffs as he has been in the past or anything like that.

I will say immediately SMALL SAMPLE SIZE that's jumping to some conclusions that you even know you are better than to say.

I"m just going to leave my quote here with your line next to it and say: I don't think you read my post carefully.

Also especially in the playoffs teams take their best defensive lineups out when Lebron leaves the floor to conserve their energy (Jimmy, George, Kawhi/ their rim protector immediately come off the floor when Lebron sits and come right back in when he checks back in). Especially in the playoffs teams adjust their rotations way more towards the opponent way more than keeping the rotation in the regular season.

Also I think you are responding to my earlier comments in the thread when I specifically mention here through my O rating of +5 that this is probably the worst he's been offensively since pretty much 11. His defense this year is why I think his global impact is still pretty much makes him the best player in the league and why it's close to last year (he was meh on D but better in the 14 playoffs). I'm probably as pro Curry as anyone can get I think his offensive level is rare at this point (above peak Durant, Dirk, Kobe and at worst on their level) . I just also happen to think he's closer to a 0 defender despite than what his RPM says.

Back to Bron's D it has been extremely impressive post break/ 15 playoffs. The reads he's making are brainy again, crazy amounts of energy and he's cleaning the glass and just really good at sliding the nail and rotating down on bigs that have allowed Tristan to be super aggressive on the pick and roll with his mobility showing/ blitzing a lot. I was pretty much one of the first ones who was calling him out last year when his D went to **** so it has taken quite a huge improvement for it to impress me.

Re: "talking about his defense". Yes and I'm talking about his global impact, which includes the defense.

Re: 0 defender whatever RPM says. As I think you've seen me say before: Don't just take his ORPM and ignore the DRPM. The DRPM might be showing additional offensive impact. The number to look at first and foremost is the overall numbers. The sub-numbers are there to help understand but there's no way to completely separate the subs.

[JLei]

Here's the thing though: The Cavs have DESTROYED opponents with LeBron off the floor. And before you say "that's small sample size, don't take it too seriously", remember that the reason we say that is that we try not to overreact to such things in the face of other evidence to the contrary. That's not the case here. Here we have LeBron shooting at horrendous efficiency, injured and clearly hampered, and were wondering how the hell the Cavs have been this effective. And the answer in terms of LeBron is that it isn't really about LeBron. The Cavs have been destroyed their opponents at an even higher rate when LeBron goes to the bench.

This obviously doesn't mean that LeBron is something other than his team's MVP, but if LeBron had seen his team perform like that when he went to the bench in his previous time in Cleveland, he'd have gotten through the East in a breeze. As such I think if there's any urge to try to figure out how LeBron might be "just as effective" with his non-scoring improvements this post-season, I'd say that needs to be held off. By objective measures, LeBron's supporting cast in this off-season has been as effective and then some as you could possibly with for from literally any supporting cast, and this is why LeBron is where he is now. To the extent that's fool's gold, well as soon as the luck ends the Cavs will get crushed. And if it doesn't maybe LeBron adds another Finals MVP to his collection. Either way, we simply cannot go at all mystical about LeBron "finding a way".

And I say this as a guy who has said LeBron can still earn his #1 spot this year and it isn't anything of a moonshot. I'll never count LeBron out, and by any other player's standards he's been amazing, but no, I don't think he's been as strong in these playoffs as he has been in the past or anything like that.

I will say immediately SMALL SAMPLE SIZE that's jumping to some conclusions that you even know you are better than to say.

I"m just going to leave my quote here with your line next to it and say: I don't think you read my post carefully.

Also especially in the playoffs teams take their best defensive lineups out when Lebron leaves the floor to conserve their energy (Jimmy, George, Kawhi/ their rim protector immediately come off the floor when Lebron sits and come right back in when he checks back in). Especially in the playoffs teams adjust their rotations way more towards the opponent way more than keeping the rotation in the regular season.

Also I think you are responding to my earlier comments in the thread when I specifically mention here through my O rating of +5 that this is probably the worst he's been offensively since pretty much 11. His defense this year is why I think his global impact is still pretty much makes him the best player in the league and why it's close to last year (he was meh on D but better in the 14 playoffs). I'm probably as pro Curry as anyone can get I think his offensive level is rare at this point (above peak Durant, Dirk, Kobe and at worst on their level) . I just also happen to think he's closer to a 0 defender despite than what his RPM says.

Back to Bron's D it has been extremely impressive post break/ 15 playoffs. The reads he's making are brainy again, crazy amounts of energy and he's cleaning the glass and just really good at sliding the nail and rotating down on bigs that have allowed Tristan to be super aggressive on the pick and roll with his mobility showing/ blitzing a lot. I was pretty much one of the first ones who was calling him out last year when his D went to **** so it has taken quite a huge improvement for it to impress me.

Re: "talking about his defense". Yes and I'm talking about his global impact, which includes the defense.

Re: 0 defender whatever RPM says. As I think you've seen me say before: Don't just take his ORPM and ignore the DRPM. The DRPM might be showing additional offensive impact. The number to look at first and foremost is the overall numbers. The sub-numbers are there to help understand but there's no way to completely separate the subs.

I read your post. And using on-off for 107 minutes of off which 23 minutes were garbage time is not really worth discussing.

Where in your post do you focus on the On with Lebron on the floor where we 570 minutes which is a pretty decent sample where the team is running pretty much the same best offense/ strong defense in the playoffs.

My reply is exactly how it should have been. You really are going to jump to conclusions on 84 minutes of game time in 14 games? It takes one stretch of them going -10 in a 5 minute stretch against the Warriors to completely change the numbers around. Doesn't mean the bench was performing worse or better. It's too soon to tell. Small Sample Size.