#Spacing - Steve Clifford Thread

BeesWax · Post #1941 » by **BeesWax** » Thu Apr 23, 2015 6:51 pm

BlackOutBuzz wrote:I don't know how you can discern between talent that he developed (or didn't develop) vs. talent that "fell into his lap." I don't think it's fair to say he couldn't develop a cherry-picked group, then point to the ones that did pan out and say "well, they would've been good anywhere they went."

Then my argument for Collins stands just as well and that was my point from the start.

Post #1942 » by **yosemiteben** » Thu Apr 23, 2015 6:54 pm

jdm3 wrote:Adams is doing about the same as Cody so does Clifford do as good a job as Brooks? How about MKG getting better do we give Clifford that too?

I think Cody and MKG both silenced a lot of critics this past season, and I think the decision to say that Cliff is holding them back is a bit arbitrary. I know your response though so I'm not real interested in getting into a debate about that.

When players improve under a coach, you always will have the argument that the coach has nothing to do with it, or that the coach was the problem in the first place and the development is all coming from the player in spite of the coach. In the case of MKG and Cody, I see positives in their development that I'm willing to at least partially attribute to Cliff. I know you don't. Agree to disagree, I'm not going to argue about it.

jdm3 wrote:I do not consider him a great developer of talent since he had Harden, Durant and Westbrook to work with.

That's fine, but this all started with Lowe himself saying that he would do well with a young team. Apparently you disagree with that. Like I said, that's fine.

LofJ · Post #1943 » by **LofJ** » Thu Apr 23, 2015 6:59 pm

I think it's fair to say he didn't' have a lot to do with developing Durant, WB, and Harden - they were all top 5 picks. If you're not lazy and you like basketball guys picked that high usually turn out pretty well because they were talented enough already to warrant being picked that high. Guys picked later in the draft are a different story, and Brooks does have two good success there - Ibaka and Jackson. Those are the two examples I think you have to look to. Sure, neither Lamb nor Jones turned out well but both of them had motor/drive issues coming into the league. And in PJ3's case it was well documented. So I wouldn't lay the blame on Brooks for either of those guys (even though I think Lamb could still turn things around on a new team).

Also, I think you have to give some credit to Clifford for MKG and Zeller becoming elite defenders at such a young age. Sure they are both highly talented and coachable guys, but in less than 2 years he has them both playing all-nba level defense. He isn't getting the job done on the other end of the floor, but all of our lottery picks (other than Zeller) always had a lot more work to do to get where they need to be on that end.

BeesWax · Post #1944 » by **BeesWax** » Thu Apr 23, 2015 7:02 pm

yosemiteben wrote:
jdm3 wrote:Adams is doing about the same as Cody so does Clifford do as good a job as Brooks? How about MKG getting better do we give Clifford that too?

I think Cody and MKG both silenced a lot of critics this past season, and I think the decision to say that Cliff is holding them back is a bit arbitrary. I know your response though so I'm not real interested in getting into a debate about that.

When players improve under a coach, you always will have the argument that the coach has nothing to do with it, or that the coach was the problem in the first place and the development is all coming from the player in spite of the coach. In the case of MKG and Cody, I see positives in their development that I'm willing to at least partially attribute to Cliff. I know you don't. Agree to disagree, I'm not going to argue about it.

jdm3 wrote:I do not consider him a great developer of talent since he had Harden, Durant and Westbrook to work with.

That's fine, but this all started with Lowe himself saying that he would do well with a young team. Apparently you disagree with that. Like I said, that's fine.

My main point is considering a coach as a great player developer is a bit overrated and I would much rather go after a great game coach. If you look at the list of players Collins worked with early in their careers at his various stops it is fantastic. I am not sure if he developed them or if they were just that good. Ranking a coach on how he develops players is very tough since there is no way to compare how players would have done under someone else.

Eoghan · Post #1945 » by **Eoghan** » Fri Apr 24, 2015 2:13 am

Braggins · Post #1946 » by **Braggins** » Sat May 9, 2015 4:26 am

Do we run any kind of secondary break action? I realized that it seems like we literally never used any transition pick and rolls or drag screens and I can't really remember us generally doing anything in transition that seemed planned.

ball teacher · Post #1947 » by **ball teacher** » Sun May 10, 2015 2:26 pm

The only thing Cliff has done well, is keep our two "leaders" happy (Kemba and Al). Clifford is NOT responsible for developing and improving MKG'S defense, and that's laughable by the way. Clifford hasnt shown the ability to adapt, or make adjustments as they need to made at a reasonable period of time. His rotations suck, and his philosophy sucks, I'm only willing to give him another season to see what he'll do with a healthy fully loaded roster even though I think we will only be mediocre in the east with him in charge, while teams like Atl, Toronto, Brooklyn and Washington overachieve and surpass us.

I was done with his guy in his first year when he tried to limit MKG'S playing time in favor of playing first JT, then Tolliver, and even pulling CDR off the street to play him over our 2nd overall pick. I'm no fan of Cliff, I'd take Brooks, Thibodeau, Vinny Del Negro, Sam Mitchell, the Sac coach who got canned and even Byron Scott over this guy.

Braggins · Post #1948 » by **Braggins** » Sat May 30, 2015 4:52 am

Someone on hornetsplanet posted that Bonnell said in a radio interview that there is a disconnect between Cho and Clifford. I so hope this true. Generally, having your coach and GM not on the same page is a bad thing, but not when your coach is clearly terrible. I was really worried that our entire front office was out of their mind and completely behind Clifford.

-Ian- · Post #1949 » by **-Ian-** » Sat May 30, 2015 4:55 am

Braggins wrote:Someone on hornetsplanet posted that Bonnell said in a radio interview that there is a disconnect between Cho and Clifford. I so hope this true. Generally, having your coach and GM not on the same page is a bad thing, but not when your coach is clearly terrible. I was really worried that our entire front office was out of their mind and completely behind Clifford.

Interesting. Bonnell should write that and not just tell it on a radio interview.

Braggins · Post #1950 » by **Braggins** » Sat May 30, 2015 5:00 am

-Ian- wrote:
Braggins wrote:Someone on hornetsplanet posted that Bonnell said in a radio interview that there is a disconnect between Cho and Clifford. I so hope this true. Generally, having your coach and GM not on the same page is a bad thing, but not when your coach is clearly terrible. I was really worried that our entire front office was out of their mind and completely behind Clifford.

Interesting. Bonnell should write that and not just tell it on a radio interview.

True, and it is Bonnell, so he could just be talking out of his ass, but I don't see him as the kind of guy that would say something potentially controversial if there wasn't some truth to it. He seems like a play it safe and say nice things kind of guy.

Braggins · Post #1951 » by **Braggins** » Sat May 30, 2015 5:00 am

My dream scenario of Cliff getting canned and that leading to Al opting out might not be the fantasy that I thought it was!

Post #1952 » by **fatlever** » Sat May 30, 2015 5:03 am

http://wfnz.com/audio-on-demand/

this audio can be found here... listening now.

Post #1953 » by **yosemiteben** » Sat May 30, 2015 5:03 am

Yes it is.

And Bonnell doesn't know **** about the dynamics between our FO and the coaching staff. He's never scooped a damn thing about this team.

Post #1954 » by **Diop** » Sat May 30, 2015 5:08 am

Sack Clifford, hire dell curry as head coach, hire anthony Davis mum as assistant coach, sit back and wait

Braggins · Post #1955 » by **Braggins** » Sat May 30, 2015 5:08 am

yosemiteben wrote:Yes it is.

And Bonnell doesn't know **** about the dynamics between our FO and the coaching staff. He's never scooped a damn thing about this team.

Good points. I still hope he is right in this instance.

Liver_Pooty · Post #1956 » by **Liver_Pooty** » Sat May 30, 2015 5:12 am

Bonne also tweeted that he was a little "off" or was told he sounded off during the interview since he found out his father was terminal shortly before.

Post #1957 » by **fatlever** » Sat May 30, 2015 5:12 am

Hard to take anything away from that interview. Bonnell was speaking in riddles. What did he mean by saying Lance has a serious problem and it needs to play out? And then when pressed about him saying there is a disconnect between front office and coach, he kinda backed off. Bonnell likes Mario a lot, not a fan of Kaminski because of defense.

Liver_Pooty · Post #1958 » by **Liver_Pooty** » Sat May 30, 2015 5:15 am

fatlever wrote:Hard to take anything away from that interview. Bonnell was speaking in riddles. What did he mean by saying Lance has a serious problem and it needs to play out? And then when pressed about him saying there is a disconnect between front office and coach, he kinda backed off. Bonnell likes Mario a lot, not a fan of Kaminski because of defense.

He was talking out of his ass as usual.

Braggins · Post #1959 » by **Braggins** » Sat May 30, 2015 5:17 am

Damnit, I was so excited there for a second.

Liver_Pooty · Post #1960 » by **Liver_Pooty** » Sat May 30, 2015 5:21 am

Lol he does try to put Lance down whenever he can though.