All-Season Player of the Year Discussion thread

[Texas Chuck]

How in the world... That's his point. A player who is top 5 next to Rubio utilizing his post game and all of his skills is relegated to the 3rd best (and at times 4th best) next to Lebron where his most utilized skill is his spot up shooting (which is something he is good at but it's not what makes him special). Do you not see Lebron's possible inability to play with a great bigman scorer as a phenomenon worth mentioning?

I feel like some people watched a different Kevin Love than I did in Minnesota. There seems to be this idea based on his impressive stats that he was a different player than he actually was. He spent a ton of time in Minnesota shooting jumpers. Last season half his shots were 16 feet and out. He's also had a lot of shots at the rim, but relatively few of those are a result of post up or him taking someone off the dribble. They are put-backs or shots created for him.

He should be used in the manner that's best for his team not him. In Cleveland it doesn't make sense to use him the same way he was used in Minnesota. Tehy don't need him to have that kind of volume, they don't want him focusing on offensive rebounds as much, and they'd certainly rather have the ball in the hands of Lebron or Kyrie.

And no I could care less if Lebron can play with a great bigman scorer or not. Why does that matter? And he obviously can play with them, but anyone thinking Bosh or Love should be given primacy over Lebron--well I'd disagree with that notion.

Love is a tremendous talent and great player. But a narrative is being written about him that doesn't seem to match his career.

[Dr Spaceman]

Love is not legitimately one of the 5 best offensive players in the league.

http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1324922#start_here

RealGM voted him the #6 overall POY last season, and it certainly wasn't on account of his defense.

He's only the 3rd best offensive player on his own team. He's only really had 2 great offensive years in his career and only last year could be described as a top 5 season.

So Kevin Love has only had "two great offensive years", which makes you uncomfortable with my assertion, but then in the same breath you say Kyrie Irving is better? I find it extremely hard to believe you could be so reluctant in Love's case and yet have no problem with Irving having even less years in the league, and definitely fewer at an elite level.

And other than volume, his shot chart really isn't that different. Shooting a few more 3's and a few less long 2's. He's not feasting on put-backs is probably the single biggest change. But that isn't really hurting the Cavs because they have more limited players who are really good at that(see Thompson) so why not take advantage of his elite floor spacing especially when you have Lebron/Kyrie?

Playmaking, mid-post, pick and pop are all things he was elite at last year that have dissappeared from his repertoire in Cleveland. He was a top 2 playmaking big man in the league last year, along with Griffin. He might be shooting 3s from the same general area, but he's being used as a catch and shoot guy and has only token involvement in the offense.

I think too much is made out of Love's decrease in numbers--mainly because Love dealt with it so poorly himself. Bosh seemed to understand what he was getting into. Love seemed much concerned with maintaining his previous volume.

Yeah, and frankly I agree with him. He's far too talented to be doing what he's doing. It's not about numbers, it's about understanding that you're talented and your skills are valuable. I would be deathly unhappy at a job in which I wasn't challenged, no matter how much money or ancillary benefits I receive, so I relate to Love in this way.

You can frame it as him wanting glory at the expense of winning or whatever, but when talented people also happen to be extremely driven, they want to work hard and make the most of their talents, and I can just as easily see Love saying "I've worked so hard my entire life to be the star I am today, and all that work would be a waste if I'm standing around waiting for a catch & shoot".

Or maybe I'm just projecting my own personality onto Love. I don't know, but that's exactly how I am.

When Kyle Korver was on the B.S. Report, he had a really beautiful quote, and the gist was essentially: "When you play for Coach Bud's system, you matter" and that it was a total revelation to a guy who had spent his career coming off the bench and being an afterthought. Now that he played for a coach who made him an active participant and found a way to squeeze the most out of his talents, he was having the most fun playing basketball that he ever had.

There's nothing wrong with having an ego or wanting more for yourself when you know you are capable.

And further it doesn't make sense for the Cavs to keep this guy if this is the way they're going to use him, because a. his production can be replaced by Channing Frye or Ryan Anderson, and b. Love's defense is only a massive liability when he's not making it up on offense.

[E-Balla]

How in the world... That's his point. A player who is top 5 next to Rubio utilizing his post game and all of his skills is relegated to the 3rd best (and at times 4th best) next to Lebron where his most utilized skill is his spot up shooting (which is something he is good at but it's not what makes him special). Do you not see Lebron's possible inability to play with a great bigman scorer as a phenomenon worth mentioning?

I feel like some people watched a different Kevin Love than I did in Minnesota. There seems to be this idea based on his impressive stats that he was a different player than he actually was. He spent a ton of time in Minnesota shooting jumpers. Last season half his shots were 16 feet and out. He's also had a lot of shots at the rim, but relatively few of those are a result of post up or him taking someone off the dribble. They are put-backs or shots created for him.

He should be used in the manner that's best for his team not him. In Cleveland it doesn't make sense to use him the same way he was used in Minnesota. Tehy don't need him to have that kind of volume, they don't want him focusing on offensive rebounds as much, and they'd certainly rather have the ball in the hands of Lebron or Kyrie.

And no I could care less if Lebron can play with a great bigman scorer or not. Why does that matter? And he obviously can play with them, but anyone thinking Bosh or Love should be given primacy over Lebron--well I'd disagree with that notion.

Love is a tremendous talent and great player. But a narrative is being written about him that doesn't seem to match his career.

This just isn't true. Kevin Love's most common play last year was the post up. He loves to work the high post and if you play that he pins you down low. IDK how a player barely over 57% assisted on his 2 pointers was scoring on shots created for him...

[QRich3]

Love was definitely a very good post up player in Minnesota, I'm not sure if he was a top 5 offensive player, nor do I care about his specific ranking, but he's definitely among the elite offensive players in the league. I feel a lot of the time people have trouble to separate performance and skills. A player can be among the most skilled, but because of team fit, coaching shortcomings, or whatever strategy-related reason, not be utilised to best of those abilities. That doesn't mean his skills have regressed, or that he's a worse player because he's not as productive. And I think fans obssession with ranking players all the time tends to undervalue or overvalue players according to the situation they find themselves in. Love is one case, Bosh is another infamous example. On the other end of the rope, and since Lowe just made an article mostly about them, a guy like Draymond Green is having his skills greatly overstated because he's in a situation where his strengths are the most useful to his team. I understand that it elevates his value to his team, but I don't think it necessarily elevates his value as a player, just like it shouldn't drown Love's.

About Lebron and his tendency to play iso-centric offense, it is true he's showed that tilt a lot in his career, and a lot of the times it's been detrimental to his team, but I'm not sure it is the case here in the Finals. The Princetown offense doesn't sound so great when you're running it through big men who can't pass, handle the ball without turning it over, or shoot very well. It doesn't help that none of the perimeter players sans Lebron can do any of those things too well either. And while player movement is always a good thing to generate offense, in this case I think there's defensive value in slowing every possession and grind the pace down on offense, specially if the result is not gonna be much less efficient than running plays through not-very-skilled players, like the Cavs are trotting out around Lebron.

[RSCD3_]

Love is not legitimately one of the 5 best offensive players in the league.

http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1324922#start_here

RealGM voted him the #6 overall POY last season, and it certainly wasn't on account of his defense.

He's only the 3rd best offensive player on his own team. He's only really had 2 great offensive years in his career and only last year could be described as a top 5 season.

So Kevin Love has only had "two great offensive years", which makes you uncomfortable with my assertion, but then in the same breath you say Kyrie Irving is better? I find it extremely hard to believe you could be so reluctant in Love's case and yet have no problem with Irving having even less years in the league, and definitely fewer at an elite level.

And other than volume, his shot chart really isn't that different. Shooting a few more 3's and a few less long 2's. He's not feasting on put-backs is probably the single biggest change. But that isn't really hurting the Cavs because they have more limited players who are really good at that(see Thompson) so why not take advantage of his elite floor spacing especially when you have Lebron/Kyrie?

Playmaking, mid-post, pick and pop are all things he was elite at last year that have dissappeared from his repertoire in Cleveland. He was a top 2 playmaking big man in the league last year, along with Griffin. He might be shooting 3s from the same general area, but he's being used as a catch and shoot guy and has only token involvement in the offense.

I think too much is made out of Love's decrease in numbers--mainly because Love dealt with it so poorly himself. Bosh seemed to understand what he was getting into. Love seemed much concerned with maintaining his previous volume.

Yeah, and frankly I agree with him. He's far too talented to be doing what he's doing. It's not about numbers, it's about understanding that you're talented and your skills are valuable. I would be deathly unhappy at a job in which I wasn't challenged, no matter how much money or ancillary benefits I receive, so I relate to Love in this way.

You can frame it as him wanting glory at the expense of winning or whatever, but when talented people also happen to be extremely driven, they want to work hard and make the most of their talents, and I can just as easily see Love saying "I've worked so hard my entire life to be the star I am today, and all that work would be a waste if I'm standing around waiting for a catch & shoot".

Or maybe I'm just projecting my own personality onto Love. I don't know, but that's exactly how I am.

When Kyle Korver was on the B.S. Report, he had a really beautiful quote, and the gist was essentially: "When you play for Coach Bud's system, you matter" and that it was a total revelation to a guy who had spent his career coming off the bench and being an afterthought. Now that he played for a coach who made him an active participant and found a way to squeeze the most out of his talents, he was having the most fun playing basketball that he ever had.

There's nothing wrong with having an ego or wanting more for yourself when you know you are capable.

And further it doesn't make sense for the Cavs to keep this guy if this is the way they're going to use him, because a. his production can be replaced by Channing Frye or Ryan Anderson, and b. Love's defense is only a massive liability when he's not making it up on offense.

I think everyone is forgetting how injured the guy was last year. Any video of him running with a stick up his butt this year compared to his smoother motion last year will how you that aside from role change his decrease in efficiency has been affected by a LeBron 10/LeBron 11 drop in mobility/athleticism when he was unhealthy which was the majority of the RS. He started looking a lot better once the playoffs begin but then again someone tried to rip his arm off.

[RSCD3_]

How in the world... That's his point. A player who is top 5 next to Rubio utilizing his post game and all of his skills is relegated to the 3rd best (and at times 4th best) next to Lebron where his most utilized skill is his spot up shooting (which is something he is good at but it's not what makes him special). Do you not see Lebron's possible inability to play with a great bigman scorer as a phenomenon worth mentioning?

I feel like some people watched a different Kevin Love than I did in Minnesota. There seems to be this idea based on his impressive stats that he was a different player than he actually was. He spent a ton of time in Minnesota shooting jumpers. Last season half his shots were 16 feet and out. He's also had a lot of shots at the rim, but relatively few of those are a result of post up or him taking someone off the dribble. They are put-backs or shots created for him.

He should be used in the manner that's best for his team not him. In Cleveland it doesn't make sense to use him the same way he was used in Minnesota. Tehy don't need him to have that kind of volume, they don't want him focusing on offensive rebounds as much, and they'd certainly rather have the ball in the hands of Lebron or Kyrie.

And no I could care less if Lebron can play with a great bigman scorer or not. Why does that matter? And he obviously can play with them, but anyone thinking Bosh or Love should be given primacy over Lebron--well I'd disagree with that notion.

Love is a tremendous talent and great player. But a narrative is being written about him that doesn't seem to match his career.

This just isn't true. Kevin Love's most common play last year was the post up. He loves to work the high post and if you play that he pins you down low. IDK how a player barely over 57% assisted on his 2 pointers was scoring on shots created for him...

Well two things true last year.

1. Loves healthy back allowed him to put the ball on the floor like 5x as much.

2. He has a little less lean so he could body up players more effectively. Also posting up someone with a bad back hurts like hell.

[trex_8063]

I'm not saying LeBron's playing next to great talent right now, but what we're seeing is an extreme version of what we were already seeing before the injuries.

By "before the injuries" you're obviously referring to some point before the finals (as you have also implied elsewhere). Just curious as to when precisely you think we began to see this happening.....which leads into my follow-up question: why do you think it's a problem (at least specifically within his present circumstances in Cleveland)?

Was it starting back in the rs? Because here's what I note thru the back-half of the rs, after the lackluster 19-20 start: in the final 43 games of the rs the Cavs ORtg was 114.4. In raw terms that's among the top 5 or so in NBA history. In relative terms, that's +8.8 to league avg, which in terms of rORTG put them on pace to be the 2nd-best offensive team in NBA history.

1st round vs Boston: 111.6 ORtg
ECSF vs Chicago: 112.3 ORtg
ECF vs Atlanta: 113.9 ORtg
Playoff total prior to finals: 112.5 ORtg


So if this trend did indeed start at some point prior to the finals (I agree, btw), it appears to have been to good effect, no?

That it has transitioned into an "extreme version" in the finals is somewhat dictated by extreme circumstances, with injuries decimating most of the other offensive options on the team. And while their offensive efficiency has been somewhat lacking so far in the finals, I can't much argue with the result......they've done what only three other teams (one time each) managed to do this year: beat the Warriors in Oakland (and they damn near did it twice).

While game 2 was obv a defensive victory, it's not as though Lebron's an empty uniform on that end (far from it). And I somewhat think Lebron's shouldering the load on offense has in at least a small way potentiated the Cavs defense (by allowing his teammates to focus their brains and energies on the defensive side of the ball), while he at least kept the offense afloat.

And fwiw, game 1 (about as close as you can come to winning it in regulation) was fairly different in complexion: the Cavs defense wasn't as stifling and/or was less effective in rattling the Warriors' cage. And Lebron's extreme high usage and ball dominance resulted in a fairly decent offensive showing (considering the competition): 103.8 ORtg (that's +2.0 to what league was averaging against this Warriors D in the rs).
btw--His usage was actually higher in game 1 (where Kyrie played) than it was in game 2.

[SideshowBob]

I'll let Doc respond in more detail, but honestly there are a few issues with the "he's doing this out of necessity" theory:

1. This isolation ball started in the regular season, with all of the big 3 healthy. It was something I and others brought up immediately after the LeBreak. I know the counter is that Cleveland still had an excellent offense, but that doesn't mean they're still not underperforming.
2. What happened to Blatt's Princeton offense that they ran throughout the preseason? It just sort of went away, and the stuff they started running in January isn't materially different from what they're running now, and is far closer to their playoff offense than their October offense.
3. If you follow Zach Lowe, he has brought this up on his podcast numerous times. Earliest was I believe a JVG pod in December which I'm not going to dig up, but he talked about it with Russillo: http://espn.go.com/espnradio/play?id=12956987 and Windhorst: http://espn.go.com/espnradio/play?id=12933623 Zach Lowe generally doesn't say anything without an airtight source. The fact that he's made it a talking point in everything he's done recently is pretty telling.

I don't really disagree here. I do believe that a degree of isolation ball is welcome (though not a healthy dose), but obviously not to the extent we're seeing right now, and I'd MUCH prefer that they get a system in place. My only thought is that it seemed like it was the same issue in Miami the first year, but they made significant strides in the seasons following, so as of now I expect to see same process going forward. If not then I will definitely be more critical.

FWIW, I have accounted for this personally. I hold 15 Lebron in much lower regard in terms of offensive portability (a low negative in fact) than previous years; I think this current version of James has clear issues of offensive fit alongside talent that just wouldn't have been as prominent with the 13/14 versions of him.

4. What the hell happened to Kevin Love? He's legitimately one of the five or so best offensive players in the league when he's right, and I know he was injured this year, but his shot chart is so far removed from what he's actually good at that it's discouraging. I'd go as far as to say any offense that doesn't make much better use of a talent like Love is far from "optimal". There was a point this season where Andy Varejao was legitimately outpacing Love in FGA/36.

How in the world... That's his point. A player who is top 5 next to Rubio utilizing his post game and all of his skills is relegated to the 3rd best (and at times 4th best) next to Lebron where his most utilized skill is his spot up shooting (which is something he is good at but it's not what makes him special). Do you not see Lebron's possible inability to play with a great bigman scorer as a phenomenon worth mentioning?

Beyond injuries, I think it's just the nature of being a 3rd option next to two ball dominant wing/perimeter guys, and I saw the same issue with Bosh. His numbers looked fine when it was just him and James or him and Wade sharing the court, the issues arise when all three took the the floor together. In this dynamic (2 high usage wings, 1 high usage big) the natural tendency will be for the big to lose out given that he's almost never going to be able to bring the ball up/initiate and dictate the floor how he wants to play. Do I agree with it? No at all, IMO Love needs more primacy in this offense, but the team construction/scheme doesn't allow him, and if you feel that Lebron needs to be penalized for that, I won't argue, but I believe the blame should be a little more distributed.

@E-Balla: I think that's an oversimplification - the biggest examples, Bosh and Love, play pretty different offensive games. Your logic is that Lebron disrupts the games of the big men he plays with but wouldn't it make more sense to say that in theory Lebron disrupts certain processes that these particular big men utilize to be effective, and that's why we see their presence diminished. With Bosh this makes sense (to a degree), they both need to initiate with the ball in their hands to be effective and outside of running a two-man game, this dynamic will never be in balance because James is the one able to play the lead guard role. This then becomes amplified when Wade is introduced into the dynamic and everyone's primacy is impacted. Conclusion: Lebron + Bosh is not an ideal fit but it is manageable, but Wade added into the mix really pushes diminishing returns.

OTOH, Love is a different story. IMO his game is an IDEAL fit with Lebron's, he spaces the floor on Lebron's slashing, has the movement/awareness to be disruptive to a drop/load up scheme, can provide a healthy dose of post offense, etc. etc. I loved this pairing coming into it, but again, the introduction of a third ball dominant player in Kyrie (who himself is a heavy isolation player) changed the dynamics up a bit to the point where Love's offensive role didn't quite end up being what I (or most) envisioned it to be - reduced number of post-ups, not ideal movement/schemes around him in those post-ups and isolations, etc. Add in some lingering injuries and lo and behold, Love on the surface ends up being quite underwhelming (though I liked what I saw in the 3.25 playoff games he played, Cleveland looked like they were being proactive about his role in the coming run). If you feel that all of this demonstrates an inability of Lebron to play with great big-men scorers, then so be it. I'm not opposed to citing him for it, but I don't think its quite that simple either.

[Dr Spaceman]

I'll let Doc respond in more detail, but honestly there are a few issues with the "he's doing this out of necessity" theory:

1. This isolation ball started in the regular season, with all of the big 3 healthy. It was something I and others brought up immediately after the LeBreak. I know the counter is that Cleveland still had an excellent offense, but that doesn't mean they're still not underperforming.
2. What happened to Blatt's Princeton offense that they ran throughout the preseason? It just sort of went away, and the stuff they started running in January isn't materially different from what they're running now, and is far closer to their playoff offense than their October offense.
3. If you follow Zach Lowe, he has brought this up on his podcast numerous times. Earliest was I believe a JVG pod in December which I'm not going to dig up, but he talked about it with Russillo: http://espn.go.com/espnradio/play?id=12956987 and Windhorst: http://espn.go.com/espnradio/play?id=12933623 Zach Lowe generally doesn't say anything without an airtight source. The fact that he's made it a talking point in everything he's done recently is pretty telling.

I don't really disagree here. I do believe that a degree of isolation ball is welcome (though not a healthy dose), but obviously not to the extent we're seeing right now, and I'd MUCH prefer that they get a system in place. My only thought is that it seemed like it was the same issue in Miami the first year, but they made significant strides in the seasons following, so as of now I expect to see same process going forward. If not then I will definitely be more critical.

FWIW, I have accounted for this personally. I hold 15 Lebron in much lower regard in terms of offensive portability (a low negative in fact) than previous years; I think this current version of James has clear issues of offensive fit alongside talent that just wouldn't have been as prominent with the 13/14 versions of him.

4. What the hell happened to Kevin Love? He's legitimately one of the five or so best offensive players in the league when he's right, and I know he was injured this year, but his shot chart is so far removed from what he's actually good at that it's discouraging. I'd go as far as to say any offense that doesn't make much better use of a talent like Love is far from "optimal". There was a point this season where Andy Varejao was legitimately outpacing Love in FGA/36.

How in the world... That's his point. A player who is top 5 next to Rubio utilizing his post game and all of his skills is relegated to the 3rd best (and at times 4th best) next to Lebron where his most utilized skill is his spot up shooting (which is something he is good at but it's not what makes him special). Do you not see Lebron's possible inability to play with a great bigman scorer as a phenomenon worth mentioning?

Beyond injuries, I think it's just the nature of being a 3rd option next to two ball dominant wing/perimeter guys, and I saw the same issue with Bosh. His numbers looked fine when it was just him and James or him and Wade sharing the court, the issues arise when all three took the the floor together. In this dynamic (2 high usage wings, 1 high usage big) the natural tendency will be for the big to lose out given that he's almost never going to be able to bring the ball up/initiate and dictate the floor how he wants to play. Do I agree with it? No at all, IMO Love needs more primacy in this offense, but the team construction/scheme doesn't allow him, and if you feel that Lebron needs to be penalized for that, I won't argue, but I believe the blame should be a little more distributed.

@E-Balla: I think that's an oversimplification - the biggest examples, Bosh and Love, play pretty different offensive games. Your logic is that Lebron disrupts the games of the big men he plays with but wouldn't it make more sense to say that in theory Lebron disrupts certain processes that these particular big men utilize to be effective, and that's why we see their presence diminished. With Bosh this makes sense (to a degree), they both need to initiate with the ball in their hands to be effective and outside of running a two-man game, this dynamic will never be in balance because James is the one able to play the lead guard role. This then becomes amplified when Wade is introduced into the dynamic and everyone's primacy is impacted. Conclusion: Lebron + Bosh is not an ideal fit but it is manageable, but Wade added into the mix really pushes diminishing returns.

OTOH, Love is a different story. IMO his game is an IDEAL fit with Lebron's, he spaces the floor on Lebron's slashing, has the movement/awareness to be disruptive to a drop/load up scheme, can provide a healthy dose of post offense, etc. etc. I loved this pairing coming into it, but again, the introduction of a third ball dominant player in Kyrie (who himself is a heavy isolation player) changed the dynamics up a bit to the point where Love's offensive role didn't quite end up being what I envisioned it to be. Add in some lingering injuries and lo and behold, Love on the surface ends up being quite underwhelming (though I liked what I saw in the 3.25 playoff games he played, Cleveland looked like they were being proactive about his role in the coming run). If you feel that all of this demonstrates an inability of Lebron to play with great big-men scorers, then so be it. I'm not opposed to citing him for it, but I don't think its quite that simple either.

Great post. Just want to make clear, I am not part of the "LeBron can't play with bigs" camp. I just have specific issues with the Love/Cleveland thing.

That said, "diminishing returns" come up a lot when LeBron is paired with other stars, and I do think it's worth investigating whether than tells us anything about him as a player.

[E-Balla]

I'll let Doc respond in more detail, but honestly there are a few issues with the "he's doing this out of necessity" theory:

1. This isolation ball started in the regular season, with all of the big 3 healthy. It was something I and others brought up immediately after the LeBreak. I know the counter is that Cleveland still had an excellent offense, but that doesn't mean they're still not underperforming.
2. What happened to Blatt's Princeton offense that they ran throughout the preseason? It just sort of went away, and the stuff they started running in January isn't materially different from what they're running now, and is far closer to their playoff offense than their October offense.
3. If you follow Zach Lowe, he has brought this up on his podcast numerous times. Earliest was I believe a JVG pod in December which I'm not going to dig up, but he talked about it with Russillo: http://espn.go.com/espnradio/play?id=12956987 and Windhorst: http://espn.go.com/espnradio/play?id=12933623 Zach Lowe generally doesn't say anything without an airtight source. The fact that he's made it a talking point in everything he's done recently is pretty telling.

I don't really disagree here. I do believe that a degree of isolation ball is welcome (though not a healthy dose), but obviously not to the extent we're seeing right now, and I'd MUCH prefer that they get a system in place. My only thought is that it seemed like it was the same issue in Miami the first year, but they made significant strides in the seasons following, so as of now I expect to see same process going forward. If not then I will definitely be more critical.

FWIW, I have accounted for this personally. I hold 15 Lebron in much lower regard in terms of offensive portability (a low negative in fact) than previous years; I think this current version of James has clear issues of offensive fit alongside talent that just wouldn't have been as prominent with the 13/14 versions of him.

4. What the hell happened to Kevin Love? He's legitimately one of the five or so best offensive players in the league when he's right, and I know he was injured this year, but his shot chart is so far removed from what he's actually good at that it's discouraging. I'd go as far as to say any offense that doesn't make much better use of a talent like Love is far from "optimal". There was a point this season where Andy Varejao was legitimately outpacing Love in FGA/36.

How in the world... That's his point. A player who is top 5 next to Rubio utilizing his post game and all of his skills is relegated to the 3rd best (and at times 4th best) next to Lebron where his most utilized skill is his spot up shooting (which is something he is good at but it's not what makes him special). Do you not see Lebron's possible inability to play with a great bigman scorer as a phenomenon worth mentioning?

Beyond injuries, I think it's just the nature of being a 3rd option next to two ball dominant wing/perimeter guys, and I saw the same issue with Bosh. His numbers looked fine when it was just him and James or him and Wade sharing the court, the issues arise when all three took the the floor together. In this dynamic (2 high usage wings, 1 high usage big) the natural tendency will be for the big to lose out given that he's almost never going to be able to bring the ball up/initiate and dictate the floor how he wants to play. Do I agree with it? No at all, IMO Love needs more primacy in this offense, but the team construction/scheme doesn't allow him, and if you feel that Lebron needs to be penalized for that, I won't argue, but I believe the blame should be a little more distributed.

@E-Balla: I think that's an oversimplification - the biggest examples, Bosh and Love, play pretty different offensive games. Your logic is that Lebron disrupts the games of the big men he plays with but wouldn't it make more sense to say that in theory Lebron disrupts certain processes that these particular big men utilize to be effective, and that's why we see their presence diminished. With Bosh this makes sense (to a degree), they both need to initiate with the ball in their hands to be effective and outside of running a two-man game, this dynamic will never be in balance because James is the one able to play the lead guard role. This then becomes amplified when Wade is introduced into the dynamic and everyone's primacy is impacted. Conclusion: Lebron + Bosh is not an ideal fit but it is manageable, but Wade added into the mix really pushes diminishing returns.

OTOH, Love is a different story. IMO his game is an IDEAL fit with Lebron's, he spaces the floor on Lebron's slashing, has the movement/awareness to be disruptive to a drop/load up scheme, can provide a healthy dose of post offense, etc. etc. I loved this pairing coming into it, but again, the introduction of a third ball dominant player in Kyrie (who himself is a heavy isolation player) changed the dynamics up a bit to the point where Love's offensive role didn't quite end up being what I (or most) envisioned it to be - reduced number of post-ups, not ideal movement/schemes around him in those post-ups and isolations, etc. Add in some lingering injuries and lo and behold, Love on the surface ends up being quite underwhelming (though I liked what I saw in the 3.25 playoff games he played, Cleveland looked like they were being proactive about his role in the coming run). If you feel that all of this demonstrates an inability of Lebron to play with great big-men scorers, then so be it. I'm not opposed to citing him for it, but I don't think its quite that simple either.

I don't necessarily believe he makes bigmen scorers worse. I don't know and I have never seen numbers of (for example) Bosh with Wade vs Bosh with Lebron or Love with Kyrie vs Love with Bron. I was just saying that its not something I'd dismiss so quickly.

[SideshowBob]

^^I'll try to dig the Miami numbers up if I have time tonight, I'm pretty sure they've been posted before.

[PaulieWal]

I don't necessarily believe he makes bigmen scorers worse. I don't know and I have never seen numbers of (for example) Bosh with Wade vs Bosh with Lebron or Love with Kyrie vs Love with Bron. I was just saying that its not something I'd dismiss so quickly.

But it makes logical sense. Bosh wasn't playing with LeBron, he was playing with LeBron and Wade. Bosh went from the 1st option to the 3rd option behind two ball dominant wings. Of course his numbers dropped and instead of being a key piece in the offense he became a release valve and by their 2nd year he became a floor spacer for LeBron/Wade to operate in the post.

It's the same thing with Love right now. He's the 3rd option behind LeBron and Irving. A lot of people bring up Kobe/Pau when they try to compare Bosh's and Love's drop in numbers but Pau would have seen a similar drop in numbers and offensive primacy if he were the 3rd option behind say Kobe/Irving, for example.

If Love/Bosh were 2nd option with LeBron their numbers would obviously be much better along with better offensive primacy. As the 3rd options both are used as floor spacers and the offense doesn't cater to their respective strengths which it would if they were the 2nd options. That's why it makes no sense to me when people try to argue that LeBron "marginalizes" big men next to him. It's just not true.

[E-Balla]

I don't necessarily believe he makes bigmen scorers worse. I don't know and I have never seen numbers of (for example) Bosh with Wade vs Bosh with Lebron or Love with Kyrie vs Love with Bron. I was just saying that its not something I'd dismiss so quickly.

But it makes logical sense. Bosh wasn't playing with LeBron, he was playing with LeBron and Wade. Bosh went from the 1st option to the 3rd option behind two ball dominant wings. Of course his numbers dropped and instead of being a key piece in the offense he became a release valve and by their 2nd year he became a floor spacer for LeBron/Wade to operate in the post.

It's the same thing with Love right now. He's the 3rd option behind LeBron and Irving. A lot of people bring up Kobe/Pau when they try to compare Bosh's and Love's drop in numbers but Pau would have seen a similar drop in numbers and offensive primacy if he were the 3rd option behind say Kobe/Irving, for example.

If Love/Bosh were 2nd option with LeBron their numbers would obviously be much better along with better offensive primacy. As the 3rd options both are used as floor spacers and the offense doesn't cater to their respective strengths which it would if they were the 2nd options. That's why it makes no sense to me when people try to argue that LeBron "marginalizes" big men next to him. It's just not true.

It also makes sense that that is marginalizing both players anyway. I don't remember Bosh utilizing his faceup game more when Wade was injured and there was no point this season when Love was allowed to work in his comfort zone even when Lebron was hurt he stayed in his same role. Its a bigger coaching issue than Lebron issue to me tbh (Lebron is a SF not a coach I don't expect him to be able to get the most out of his players).

[PaulieWal]

It also makes sense that that is marginalizing both players anyway. I don't remember Bosh utilizing his faceup game more when Wade was injured and there was no point this season when Love was allowed to work in his comfort zone even when Lebron was hurt he stayed in his same role. Its a bigger coaching issue than Lebron issue to me tbh (Lebron is a SF not a coach I don't expect him to be able to get the most out of his players).

I think we mostly agree but again if you realize that they went from 1st options to 3rd options behind two ball dominant players it's not really on LeBron that he's "marginalizing" these guys.

FWIW, when Wade was missing a lot of games last years Spo was asked why Bosh wasn't being given a bigger role and he said he didn't want to disrupt the offense when Wade does come back. In hindsight Bosh should have been the 2nd option last year but that's the way it goes.

I'd also say that you can't really judge the whole marginalizing point when one of the 3 stars is missing games. Unless a player is out of the season those missed games don't mean much IMO to judge the utility of a player.

I'd also like to mention that when LeBron went back to the Cavs I thought that Love would be the 2nd option on this team since he was easily a better player than Irving last year and still is in a vacuum but they have went with Irving as their 2nd guy.

[E-Balla]

It also makes sense that that is marginalizing both players anyway. I don't remember Bosh utilizing his faceup game more when Wade was injured and there was no point this season when Love was allowed to work in his comfort zone even when Lebron was hurt he stayed in his same role. Its a bigger coaching issue than Lebron issue to me tbh (Lebron is a SF not a coach I don't expect him to be able to get the most out of his players).

I think we mostly agree but again if you realize that they went from 1st options to 3rd options behind two ball dominant players it's not really on LeBron that he's "marginalizing" these guys.

FWIW, when Wade was missing a lot of games last years Spo was asked why Bosh wasn't being given a bigger role and he said he didn't want to disrupt the offense when Wade does come back. In hindsight Bosh should have been the 2nd option last year but that's the way it goes.

I'd also say that you can't really judge the whole marginalizing point when one of the 3 stars is missing games. Unless a player is out of the season those missed games don't mean much IMO to judge the utility of a player.

I'd also like to mention that when LeBron went back to the Cavs I thought that Love would be the 2nd option on this team since he was easily a better player than Irving last year and still is in a vacuum but they have went with Irving as their 2nd guy.

I remember in the offseason saying Kyrie would be the number 2 guy. He's just so good in isolation that its a better option than most halfcourt plays and he's the PG.

[Texas Chuck]

The posts by our two beloved doctors on Lebron and the Cavs and their belief that they are playing sub-optimally makes me think of this from The Order of Things:

People know what they do;
they frequently know why they do what they do;
but what they don't know is what what they do does.

[Clyde Frazier]

Just going to jump in with my opinion and come back to the discussion later...

From the beginning of the season until now, there have been several different versions of this cavs team. You had the pre-mozgov / shumpert / JR team, who wasn’t as deep and they were still trying to figure things out. It takes time to develop chemistry.

Then you had a fully healthy squad going into the playoffs, and while all of these are small sample sizes, it looked like love was starting to play more like love. He gets injured, and they have to re-tool.

Then kyrie becomes hobbled off and on, and that’s where I think you really saw lebron start to do it by himself. Even then, we saw him continue to drive and kick to shooters, creating offense for everyone else. He’s also excellent passing out of the post as we know.

It wasn’t until the hawks series where he really started to get into “i have to do everything” mode, and it was ugly, but still effective enough to get them to the finals and have the series tied 1-1 — something no one expected at this point.

So long story short, I strongly believe with such a depleted roster right now, lebron’s “i have to do everything” mode is the best option. There’s been some general mention of warriors wins and losses being decided by keeping lebron under double digit assists, and i think there’s some truth to that.

As I mentioned above, we have small sample sizes of a team that changed throughout the season. I think the current roster at full strength would’ve developed into lebron initiating the offense, but the ball would still move freely throughout.

[HeartBreakKid]

I gotta admit, I was wrong about this series. I really did not think it would be this competitive. I need to reconsider if James is the POY.

[bondom34]

I gotta admit, I was wrong about this series. I really did not think it would be this competitive. I need to reconsider if James is the POY.

Was ready to say the same but didn't wanna jinx it. Seems this is becoming a yearly tradition.

[cpower]

I am reconsidering Harden as POY.