All-Season Player of the Year Discussion thread

[Texas Chuck]

To me (and I didn't use the phrase).

I didn't use the phrase either so maybe our little exchange isn't what he's referring to?

The reason I have AD lower than the very top guys this year is that I simply don't think he was as good. Part of that is the other candidates(Lebron, Curry, Paul, Harden) are all absolutely dominant in at least one area. And that dominance allows their team to be built around them in a way that leads to greater success. Davis is really good in a lot of areas, but there really isn't an area of his game where he consistently dominates the game to the point where his team can depend on him to deliver it night after night.
He's a really great player and I have him somewhere between 5-7(Westbrook and Griffin in the mix with him).

He might be the most talented guy in the league(absolutely top 3 at worst) but he's not put all that talent together. This is about who had the best year not who has the best talent and I don't think he had the best year.

And while everyone keeps telling me the only reason I think this is because I'm not ready to accept his greatness, I don't believe that's all there is to it. I'll admit that I'm a show me guy. I was slower than most to jump on Curry this year for instance. But I also have valid reasons for ranking other elite players above him.

[bondom34]

And while everyone keeps telling me the only reason I think this is because I'm not ready to accept his greatness, I don't believe that's all there is to it. I'll admit that I'm a show me guy. I was slower than most to jump on Curry this year for instance. But I also have valid reasons for ranking other elite players above him.

I think actually this describes me pretty well. I'm always freaked out when I realize how often I agree w/ you. I was late to buy Curry (and no I still have last year's Durant above him), and Lebron worked up to the 2 spot gradually in the playoffs from 4/5. I don't see a case for Davis over Paul, Harden, Curry, or Lebron at all and to me I put Westbrook over him by a small but noticable margin.

[MO12msu]

I didn't use the phrase either so maybe our little exchange isn't what he's referring to?

The reason I have AD lower than the very top guys this year is that I simply don't think he was as good. Part of that is the other candidates(Lebron, Curry, Paul, Harden) are all absolutely dominant in at least one area. And that dominance allows their team to be built around them in a way that leads to greater success. Davis is really good in a lot of areas, but there really isn't an area of his game where he consistently dominates the game to the point where his team can depend on him to deliver it night after night.
He's a really great player and I have him somewhere between 5-7(Westbrook and Griffin in the mix with him).

He might be the most talented guy in the league(absolutely top 3 at worst) but he's not put all that talent together. This is about who had the best year not who has the best talent and I don't think he had the best year.

And while everyone keeps telling me the only reason I think this is because I'm not ready to accept his greatness, I don't believe that's all there is to it. I'll admit that I'm a show me guy. I was slower than most to jump on Curry this year for instance. But I also have valid reasons for ranking other elite players above him.

I don't think I've heard the criticism of Daivs that his team can't depend on him night after night. He might not be "dominate" at any one thing, but he's very good to elite for a big man in nearly every aspect of the game save for passing. And playmaking is probably his most underrated asset considering the amount of openings he creates for the ball handler whenever he sets a screen. He is the biggest threat setting a screen in the game today and that yields extra defenders or defenders leaning away from the ball handler and giving players like Tyreke Evans easier layup opportunities. To me, the pure presence of his screen setting abilities are a consistent night to night threat that I'm not sure is matched by anyone else in the league. Not to mention that I'd say his defensive effort is pretty consistent, and that is very valuable for a guy with his athletic abilities(See: Deandre Jordan's presence when he puts in the effort even without the advance IQ). Davis covers a lot, it's hard to see a game where he doesn't impact the game in some way.

Can you elaborate on the statement that Davis isn't dependable to deliver night to night? Only argument I could think of is inconsistency in being on the floor due to injuries.

Also, not sure I could see any argument for Griffin over Davis tbh.

Also, statements like "he's not put all that talent together" aren't really an argument for or against players when we're comparing performance, since every player has different ceilings. 80% the potential reached of one player could be greater than 120% the potential reached of another. I know that's not your main argument or anything, but I think even using it as a supporting point is kind of off with the theme of player of the year.

[Doctor MJ]

I found it pretty interesting last night after all the talk here about Lebron not playing in the "correct" way, that Curry and the Warriors made their frantic comeback when Steph completely abandoned the Warrior's offense and just starting attacking in isolation and off screens.

I love great team offense as much as anyone, but it sure is nice to have one of these guys who can just go get it. Curry was brilliant down the stretch. But the Cavs seem to have answers for everything the Warriors try and do offensively. Really surprises me that Golden State can't ever punish Cleveland for the very hard doubles on Steph in the PNR. But they just blitz him hard play after play after play and GSW can't win the 4 on 3 power play.

I'm still sticking with Curry for POY, but I do feel some vindication for my insistence on including James in the conversation.

2 points:

1) My issue with LeBron Hero Ball isn't based simply on objecting to how he's playing and assuming it's problematic, it's based on the data as well. Just as anyone would expect, the Cavs offense isn't that successful right now. Because of the defense they are doing well, but that doesn't make the offense above criticism. I understand that people say the offense enables the defense, and that's something for us to consider, but we should be quite careful about this.

2) But as much as I have issues with the Cavs playing as they are, if it keeps having the success it does, it's hard for me to imagine not voting LeBron #1. I'm not so naive as to think that the success of the Cavs we're seeing isn't based on LeBron's unique abilities. I'm find rating his accomplishment highly, I just think they could do even more.

As for the weight of the regular season vs the playoffs, while I respect people who have come out lately to say they are weighing the regular season more heavily than most, I think you have to remember that someone like LeBron is conserving himself for the playoffs. And in this particular case, up through this point, we've never even seen the LeBron's Cavs seriously pushed which means there wasn't a reason for LeBron to go all out. I think that if you find yourself realizing that your criteria is going to punish the best player in the world for being strategic with his efforts at earlier points in the season, you need to reconsider.

This is not to say LeBron has clinched my #1 by any means, but as much as I express frustration over the caveman play, I am in awe of LeBron's ability to go from finesse to full on tank like he's done. There's really never been anyone like this.

[ceiling raiser]

I found it pretty interesting last night after all the talk here about Lebron not playing in the "correct" way, that Curry and the Warriors made their frantic comeback when Steph completely abandoned the Warrior's offense and just starting attacking in isolation and off screens.

I love great team offense as much as anyone, but it sure is nice to have one of these guys who can just go get it. Curry was brilliant down the stretch. But the Cavs seem to have answers for everything the Warriors try and do offensively. Really surprises me that Golden State can't ever punish Cleveland for the very hard doubles on Steph in the PNR. But they just blitz him hard play after play after play and GSW can't win the 4 on 3 power play.

I'm still sticking with Curry for POY, but I do feel some vindication for my insistence on including James in the conversation.

2 points:

1) My issue with LeBron Hero Ball isn't based simply on objecting to how he's playing and assuming it's problematic, it's based on the data as well. Just as anyone would expect, the Cavs offense isn't that successful right now. Because of the defense they are doing well, but that doesn't make the offense above criticism. I understand that people say the offense enables the defense, and that's something for us to consider, but we should be quite careful about this.

2) But as much as I have issues with the Cavs playing as they are, if it keeps having the success it does, it's hard for me to imagine not voting LeBron #1. I'm not so naive as to think that the success of the Cavs we're seeing isn't based on LeBron's unique abilities. I'm find rating his accomplishment highly, I just think they could do even more.

As for the weight of the regular season vs the playoffs, while I respect people who have come out lately to say they are weighing the regular season more heavily than most, I think you have to remember that someone like LeBron is conserving himself for the playoffs. And in this particular case, up through this point, we've never even seen the LeBron's Cavs seriously pushed which means there wasn't a reason for LeBron to go all out. I think that if you find yourself realizing that your criteria is going to punish the best player in the world for being strategic with his efforts at earlier points in the season, you need to reconsider.

This is not to say LeBron has clinched my #1 by any means, but as much as I express frustration over the caveman play, I am in awe of LeBron's ability to go from finesse to full on tank like he's done. There's really never been anyone like this.

Doc - How are you parsing out credit for the team defense?

[mtron929]

I found it pretty interesting last night after all the talk here about Lebron not playing in the "correct" way, that Curry and the Warriors made their frantic comeback when Steph completely abandoned the Warrior's offense and just starting attacking in isolation and off screens.

I love great team offense as much as anyone, but it sure is nice to have one of these guys who can just go get it. Curry was brilliant down the stretch. But the Cavs seem to have answers for everything the Warriors try and do offensively. Really surprises me that Golden State can't ever punish Cleveland for the very hard doubles on Steph in the PNR. But they just blitz him hard play after play after play and GSW can't win the 4 on 3 power play.

I'm still sticking with Curry for POY, but I do feel some vindication for my insistence on including James in the conversation.

2 points:

1) My issue with LeBron Hero Ball isn't based simply on objecting to how he's playing and assuming it's problematic, it's based on the data as well. Just as anyone would expect, the Cavs offense isn't that successful right now. Because of the defense they are doing well, but that doesn't make the offense above criticism. I understand that people say the offense enables the defense, and that's something for us to consider, but we should be quite careful about this.

2) But as much as I have issues with the Cavs playing as they are, if it keeps having the success it does, it's hard for me to imagine not voting LeBron #1. I'm not so naive as to think that the success of the Cavs we're seeing isn't based on LeBron's unique abilities. I'm find rating his accomplishment highly, I just think they could do even more.

As for the weight of the regular season vs the playoffs, while I respect people who have come out lately to say they are weighing the regular season more heavily than most, I think you have to remember that someone like LeBron is conserving himself for the playoffs. And in this particular case, up through this point, we've never even seen the LeBron's Cavs seriously pushed which means there wasn't a reason for LeBron to go all out. I think that if you find yourself realizing that your criteria is going to punish the best player in the world for being strategic with his efforts at earlier points in the season, you need to reconsider.

This is not to say LeBron has clinched my #1 by any means, but as much as I express frustration over the caveman play, I am in awe of LeBron's ability to go from finesse to full on tank like he's done. There's really never been anyone like this.

I completely agree with you on this.

Let's talk about an extreme scenario. Player A plays 55 games and leads the team to 40-15 record. He misses the other 27 games due to rest/injury and the team goes 13-14. Thus, the team compiles a 53-29 record and gets a 5-6th seed in the playoffs. Player A plays very well to trascendent throughout the playoffs and the team wins the championship. In that scenario, player A is the player of the year. In the NBA, there is no point in treating regular season as nothing more than filtering out half of the teams for the real season. And if you prove that you can play transcendent in the playoffs, then nothing else matters. You are the best player.

[QRich3]

I understand that people say the offense enables the defense, and that's something for us to consider, but we should be quite careful about this.

Excellent and well thought post that I agree with, but I'm curious as to why you think we should be careful about considering that. If I had to pick one main instance of the many things Cleveland are doing right to contain the Warriors offense, it'd be the rigurous discipline in transition defense, and that's in great part enabled by slowing the pace of their own offense, and with it the turnover chances, wouldn't you agree with that?

[Texas Chuck]

^^ agreed

The other thing I'd note about the Cavs offense is how much energy they are saving to defend. Lebron slowly walks the ball up barely beating the 8 second clock on almost every possession. Most guys spend the entire possession standing around and then with 7 or 8 seconds left Lebron finally initiates something. There is minimal movement on most possessions.

With their lack of depth, this is another underrated aspect of what Blatt is doing. He's buying rest at that end.

[bondom34]

With their lack of depth, this is another underrated aspect of what Blatt is doing. He's buying rest at that end.

Yeah, and this is something I think Blatt is really showing his chops in. He's gone all in on the way they're defending and playing offense. They're not changing tactics mid-game out of panic no matter what, and its worked. I knew it was drastic but finally checked the numbers out, GSW ran the fastest pace in the league this season at 98.3. Cavs at 92.3. This series, the pace is slower than any team ran this season at 89.7. To add that the defense has been fantastic this has been a Grizzliesesque series by the Cavs.

[Texas Chuck]

Credit to @kirkgoldsberry: (I'm paraphrasing)

Lebron is 21 out of 42 from close range, but if you look at how those 42 possessions have ended for the Cavs they converted on 33 of those 42 possessions as they have gotten the offensive rebounds on more than half of those. So essentially they score on 80% of Lebron's close-range shots.

[Clyde Frazier]

Credit to @kirkgoldsberry: (I'm paraphrasing)

Lebron is 21 out of 42 from close range, but if you look at how those 42 possessions have ended for the Cavs they converted on 33 of those 42 possessions as they have gotten the offensive rebounds on more than half of those. So essentially they score on 80% of Lebron's close-range shots.

Thanks, Chuck (and Kirk). I was talking to someone last night and they made the same observation, but didn't know if anyone was tracking it.

2 random lebron related things:

- Those fall aways he was hitting in the 2nd half of game 3 were just absurd. Like he'd jump back a few feet and basically release it right before he hit the ground

- Thought it was interesting to hear him talk about how his efficiency had gone up for 6 straight seasons, and how this year was a different situation. I know he had the "CHECK MY $TAT$" shirt a few years ago, but i'd never heard him actually acknowledge that specifically.

[MisterHibachi]

I think that shirt was photo shopped.

[Doctor MJ]

I don't understand why several smart posters jumped in in response to my post by basically just attacking the last sentence and ignoring the paragraph it is attached to.

I'm not saying LeBron's playing next to great talent right now, but what we're seeing is an extreme version of what we were already seeing before the injuries. LeBron went from Miami playing a highly refined scheme based on getting the whole team involved, to playing Blatt's highly refined scheme based on getting the whole team involved, to much more simplistic stuff that just relies on LeBron making stuff happen. It really seems like LeBron isn't simply playing like this because he has to, he's doing it because he prefers it.

That's not a problem if that's truly the best way to run things, but I'm not convinced it is. And so what if it's really NOT the best way to do things generally, but it works okay in this particular finals because the team has less options and the Warriors aren't prepared for it? Short answer is, I expect LeBron to be pretty resistant to playing in more advanced schemes going forward and this bothers me.

But that seems like a stretch Doc. Why would he all of a sudden become resistant to more advanced schemes? Doesn't it make more sense that its only the situation forcing him into it? I mean they spent the regular season running a pretty solid system that was providing results (114 ORTG/+8.5 offense in Lebron's 69 games, 115 ORTG/+9.3 offense with the big 3, and 117 ORTG/+11 offense with Mozgov + big 3). Problem is, we only got 3 games out of this group in the playoffs and in those 3 they seemed to line up with what we had been seeing all along (114 ORTG/+10 offense). They were doing stuff that was working remarkably when the team was healthier and this was over a much larger sample; why shouldn't I trust that Lebron will revert to that when they regain that health?

While obviously we did see shades of the overly Lebron centralized offense in all of those stretches, but I don't see why that would be reason to believe that he would be resistant to going back to a more refined system just because of what's happening now. His tone in the interviews seems to imply the opposite, he recognizes that this is ugly and inefficient but seems to believe that given what they're working with right now, this seems to be the best option. Maybe I'm reading too much into it but he doesn't come across as someone who prefers the way they're playing right now, hell in most previous situations he's the one who's gotten criticized for sticking to the system a little too much (criticism that I've generally disagreed with).

I'll let Doc respond in more detail, but honestly there are a few issues with the "he's doing this out of necessity" theory:

1. This isolation ball started in the regular season, with all of the big 3 healthy. It was something I and others brought up immediately after the LeBreak. I know the counter is that Cleveland still had an excellent offense, but that doesn't mean they're still not underperforming.
2. What happened to Blatt's Princeton offense that they ran throughout the preseason? It just sort of went away, and the stuff they started running in January isn't materially different from what they're running now, and is far closer to their playoff offense than their October offense.
3. If you follow Zach Lowe, he has brought this up on his podcast numerous times. Earliest was I believe a JVG pod in December which I'm not going to dig up, but he talked about it with Russillo: http://espn.go.com/espnradio/play?id=12956987 and Windhorst: http://espn.go.com/espnradio/play?id=12933623 Zach Lowe generally doesn't say anything without an airtight source. The fact that he's made it a talking point in everything he's done recently is pretty telling.
4. What the hell happened to Kevin Love? He's legitimately one of the five or so best offensive players in the league when he's right, and I know he was injured this year, but his shot chart is so far removed from what he's actually good at that it's discouraging. I'd go as far as to say any offense that doesn't make much better use of a talent like Love is far from "optimal". There was a point this season where Andy Varejao was legitimately outpacing Love in FGA/36.

No one is saying LeBron isn't amazing, or that he doesn't deserve credit for what he's doing now, or that he's some kind of petulant coach killer or other such nonsense. But the Love thing is a big deal, and all evidence points to LeBron being part of the problem. It's honestly hard to not see this as a mark against.

Such a good post.

Yeah, so that's pretty much what I'm pointing at. I have literally zero qualms about giving LeBron the POY if he finishes strong here, but I think that the chronology is pretty clear that LeBron pushed away from more sophisticated schemes long before injuries were an issue, and the result was that one absolutely stellar teammate hasn't simply been a disappointment, but basically couldn't help but become a punchline.

Normally I'd say "hey it's the first year, give it time", but said teammate is a free agent this year and you just gave up a potential superstar for him. It's a problem, and there's just no way around it. It's possible that trying to do it the "right way" with Love never would have worked out, but what's the point of giving up before you start?

So I come in to all of the later playoff stuff not forgetting the earlier issues, and while it's true that LeBron's unipolar attack right now helps the defense be what it is, what I want to be careful of is in just dismissing the white elephant in the room. It's working okay, but there's no reason to call it flawless.

I'll also emphasize: The Cavs great defense didn't start with this series, they've been doing it for a while now even when LeBron wasn't putting up the same outlier volume numbers. Again it's correct to say that LeBron's offense is helping the defense, but I think it's really problematic to essentially assume any offensive weakness can be "covered" with a presumed improvement on defense when we know that the defense was already clicking.

It is VERY possible that playing LeBron like this helps the defense, but that the combined offense/defense effect is NOT as good as using LeBron in another way. And honestly, does anyone seriously doubt this? How can you look at a LeBron possession that wastes almost the entire shot clock and ends with him taking a desperation 3 and think "Brilliant!". There are ways to develop an offensive scheme that limits transition buckets and conserve a bit of energy for the other guys that are less likely to end up with possessions like that. My guess is, some of them would work better than what we're seeing.

What I think LeBron can claim, is that of any of the schemes in this family, the one implemented now is the simplest to implement. The brilliance of LeBron is that he can basically make a complete void of a scheme into something not-terrible, and so the Cavs have gone with this, and it's working okay so far, and if the Cavs win, every knucklehead is going to praise it to the heavens.

But we know that this is only possible because the Warriors aren't hitting their shots, and if that proves to be something that doesn't hold as true going forward, then the Warriors ORtg will outpace the Cavs' very quickly, and a Warriors' title then becomes likely. At that point no one reasonable should see a serious change in their opinion of the Cavs...and yet won't it be a given at that point that the Cavs effectiveness playing caveman basketball is something that could probably improve upon with a bit more sophistication?

To be clear: I'm not saying this is definitely happening, I'm just saying it's within the realm of possibility, and the wise analyst has a take right now on the Cavs that won't change drastically because Curry starts making shots he normally makes again.

[trex_8063]

--snip--

So I come in to all of the later playoff stuff not forgetting the earlier issues, and while it's true that LeBron's unipolar attack right now helps the defense be what it is, what I want to be careful of is in just dismissing the white elephant in the room. It's working okay, but there's no reason to call it flawless.

I'll also emphasize: The Cavs great defense didn't start with this series, they've been doing it for a while now even when LeBron wasn't putting up the same outlier volume numbers. Again it's correct to say that LeBron's offense is helping the defense, but I think it's really problematic to essentially assume any offensive weakness can be "covered" with a presumed improvement on defense when we know that the defense was already clicking.

It is VERY possible that playing LeBron like this helps the defense, but that the combined offense/defense effect is NOT as good as using LeBron in another way. And honestly, does anyone seriously doubt this? How can you look at a LeBron possession that wastes almost the entire shot clock and ends with him taking a desperation 3 and think "Brilliant!".

Fair points above, particularly about the potential marginalization of Love.
To be fair to Lebron and the Cavs (within this series): those types of outcomes you describe in that last sentence (not sure if you're thinking of the final shot of the 1st half G4 as you wrote that, or if you wrote it before that) are more exception than the rule, imo.

I had a "wtf was that?" reaction to the final shot of the half last night, but tbh, I think Lebron is just totally gassed at times.
Those explosive moves to the basket take A LOT of energy. Speaking for myself, I can jog from one baseline to the other and back again while expending LESS energy than it takes to attempt a single sudden quick/explosive drive at the rim. I get the feeling he's just so tired at some points, that he can't muster that kind of explosion every single play.....and so he settles for the less strenuous bad shot.
Make or miss, it's obv far from an ideal outcome of an offensive possession.......I just don't know the solution for them right now. I think someone recently posted how (thru game 3) in the twelve minutes Lebron was on the bench, the Cavs ORtg was an unheard of level of badness at 55.1. With Kyrie out, J.R. shooting like absolute crap, Dellavedova missing a lot of the looks he gets, too.....I don't know what other option they have than to let Lebron keep them afloat.

There are ways to develop an offensive scheme that limits transition buckets and conserve a bit of energy for the other guys that are less likely to end up with possessions like that. My guess is, some of them would work better than what we're seeing.

Please do elaborate (and then forward ideas to Blatt; I really want the Cavs to win ).

What I think LeBron can claim, is that of any of the schemes in this family, the one implemented now is the simplest to implement. The brilliance of LeBron is that he can basically make a complete void of a scheme into something not-terrible, and so the Cavs have gone with this, and it's working okay so far, and if the Cavs win, every knucklehead is going to praise it to the heavens.

But we know that this is only possible because the Warriors aren't hitting their shots, .....

Now I'm suspicious you wrote this before (or during) last night's game. Drought's over, apparently; or rather just transferred over to the Cavs. Honestly can't believe they only lost by 21, given 33% shooting from the field and 4/27 from trey for the Cavs.

[RSCD3_]

If Curry doesnt win the finals mvp is that an indictment of him underperforming in the finals.
Also slightly OT but do you think he'll win it on star powereven though iggy seems like the popular choice

[Doctor MJ]

If Curry doesnt win the finals mvp is that an indictment of him underperforming in the finals.
Also slightly OT but do you think he'll win it on star powereven though iggy seems like the popular choice

I think that Curry is much more likely to win the Finals MVP than Iggy. Everyone's talking about Iggy after the last game, but we shouldn't pretend that this isn't largely because of his scoring, which was possible because the Cavs basically dared him to shoot and even then involved him doing better than normal. Not trying to take credit away from Iggy, he's crucial, and his defense is huge, but his candidacy isn't one that's likely to last through the end of the series.

I think that if the series goes 7, LeBron has a really good chance to win the award even if his team loses. I actually think that sounds fine, although I feel a little uncomfortable at people pointing to him scoring 40 as the reason why.

Among Warriors, I think it's quite unlikely that someone other than Curry wins. People can talk about Curry not showing up like a true MVP, but it's not like someone else has taken over his job.

[Doctor MJ]

--snip--

So I come in to all of the later playoff stuff not forgetting the earlier issues, and while it's true that LeBron's unipolar attack right now helps the defense be what it is, what I want to be careful of is in just dismissing the white elephant in the room. It's working okay, but there's no reason to call it flawless.

I'll also emphasize: The Cavs great defense didn't start with this series, they've been doing it for a while now even when LeBron wasn't putting up the same outlier volume numbers. Again it's correct to say that LeBron's offense is helping the defense, but I think it's really problematic to essentially assume any offensive weakness can be "covered" with a presumed improvement on defense when we know that the defense was already clicking.

It is VERY possible that playing LeBron like this helps the defense, but that the combined offense/defense effect is NOT as good as using LeBron in another way. And honestly, does anyone seriously doubt this? How can you look at a LeBron possession that wastes almost the entire shot clock and ends with him taking a desperation 3 and think "Brilliant!".

Fair points above, particularly about the potential marginalization of Love.
To be fair to Lebron and the Cavs (within this series): those types of outcomes you describe in that last sentence (not sure if you're thinking of the final shot of the 1st half G4 as you wrote that, or if you wrote it before that) are more exception than the rule, imo.

It's deliberate hyperbole, but I wouldn't be using it if there was any conceivable measure by which the Cavs' offense could be seen as competent for reasons other than helping the defense. Bottom line is that that the Cavs are not getting good shots with this strategy.

I had a "wtf was that?" reaction to the final shot of the half last night, but tbh, I think Lebron is just totally gassed at times.
Those explosive moves to the basket take A LOT of energy. Speaking for myself, I can jog from one baseline to the other and back again while expending LESS energy than it takes to attempt a single sudden quick/explosive drive at the rim. I get the feeling he's just so tired at some points, that he can't muster that kind of explosion every single play.....and so he settles for the less strenuous bad shot.
Make or miss, it's obv far from an ideal outcome of an offensive possession.......I just don't know the solution for them right now. I think someone recently posted how (thru game 3) in the twelve minutes Lebron was on the bench, the Cavs ORtg was an unheard of level of badness at 55.1. With Kyrie out, J.R. shooting like absolute crap, Dellavedova missing a lot of the looks he gets, too.....I don't know what other option they have than to let Lebron keep them afloat.

Well there's something to this being an offense that can be implemented even with a tired LeBron, I just think it's important not to talk about the offense is terms that are too glowing. You could do worse things definitely, but the unabashed praise weirds me out.

Re: What other option do they have? Just keep in mind that there isn't any approach they would use that would make them score, say 80 points per 100 possessions or some number like that. While it might feel like they have "nothing", the reality is that the vast majority of the points LeBron scores would be scored by someone else if LeBron wasn't there. That's not a knock on LeBron, it's just how basketball works.

I do expect that the Cavs would do significantly worse without LeBron out there of course, but other guys would find a way in if they had to. It wouldn't be enough to win, but to the extent the other guys look totally inept, it's always only because those guys know it's not there job to be the alpha. Every single one of the is a 1 in 10,000 or maybe even 1 in 100,000 talent, which makes them more talented in what they do than possibly any of us are at anything. They are not trash.

There are ways to develop an offensive scheme that limits transition buckets and conserve a bit of energy for the other guys that are less likely to end up with possessions like that. My guess is, some of them would work better than what we're seeing.

Please do elaborate (and then forward ideas to Blatt; I really want the Cavs to win ).

I'm not an expert Xs and Os guy, I just know I see a lot of stagnancy in the Cavs' current approach and that the data backs up the obvious conclusion that this isn't going that well. The general thing I'm saying is that a more dynamic offense that gets other guys involved if well done would probably be better.

Is it possible to implement that right as we speak? Maybe not. At the same time, if they had implemented the Princeton this year, it would have been possible, and Blatt doesn't need my help in implementing the Princeton. He can do that blindfolded with players far less talented than the remaining Cavs players.

Schemes like this tend to make superstars chafe because they seem needlessly complicated. "I can just score, so why don't we just do that?". The superstar feels a loss of control that's by no means imagined, and the start of the process is rocky, but of course the reason we try to have more sophisticated schemes is that they can really make things better.

Not saying "PRINCETON!!!" is the answer, just saying, those other teammates are millionaires for a reason and the current scheme doesn't actually, y'know, work that well.

What I think LeBron can claim, is that of any of the schemes in this family, the one implemented now is the simplest to implement. The brilliance of LeBron is that he can basically make a complete void of a scheme into something not-terrible, and so the Cavs have gone with this, and it's working okay so far, and if the Cavs win, every knucklehead is going to praise it to the heavens.

But we know that this is only possible because the Warriors aren't hitting their shots, .....

Now I'm suspicious you wrote this before (or during) last night's game. Drought's over, apparently; or rather just transferred over to the Cavs. Honestly can't believe they only lost by 21, given 33% shooting from the field and 4/27 from trey for the Cavs.

lol. For the record, I started writing the post before the game and made a point not to check the score until after I posted it. Once I hit submit I checked the score, and saw the Cavs were out to an early lead. I then had the thought, "Welp, if the Warriors never click in this series people are going to see me like Ahab.".

After the game of course I won't deny that I felt quite prescient. I will point out though that I never said I KNEW the Warriors would do that. The Cav defense is legit tough. I just really got the sense that the Cav offensive strategy and defensive success were not as intrinsically linked as people were making it out to be. The former helps the latter, but I really doubted it could guarantee such success.

And I'll point out: The Warriors getting hot does not make the Cav defense somehow no longer impressive. But as I was saying, it certainly does paint the Cav offense in a different light. The variance was more extreme than I'm about to present, but there's real truth in the statement that an offense that looks fine with a 100 DRtg may look inept with a 105 DRtg. All of a sudden quirks that seem like smart, streamlined minimalism now look dumb and lazy.

[Doctor MJ]

Doc - How are you parsing out credit for the team defense?

In all honesty, it's still something I'm thinking through.

From a POY perspective, if the Cavs go through and dominate the league this way to win a championship, with an approach that requires so much of the weight being on LeBron, I just can't help but give him a ton of credit holistically. But how much of that is defensive credit? The two sides are linked and I don't think there's a perfect way to allocate it. Then of course you get into the other teammates and the coaching. I don't know. I'd be interested to read others' thoughts.

[cpower]

which player had the better PS run so far?
Lebron: 29.9/10.9/8.4 25.6 PER 0.49 TS% 0.181 WS48 6 OBPM 5 DBPM
Curry: 28.5/5/6.3 24.7 PER 0.609 TS% 0.231 WS48 9,2 OBPM -0.4 DBPM

[E-Balla]

which player had the better PS run so far?
Lebron: 29.9/10.9/8.4 25.6 PER 0.49 TS% 0.181 WS48 6 OBPM 5 DBPM
Curry: 28.5/5/6.3 24.7 PER 0.609 TS% 0.231 WS48 9,2 OBPM -0.4 DBPM

Before the Finals I would've said Curry but Lebron has been so good (and Curry so bad at doing the things PGs should excel at - like passing out of hard traps) that I think I'll go with Bron. Still taking Curry for the season and if Curry has another performance like last night he would wrap it up.