Kanter's Free Agency

[Bravenewworld]

Except the part where Dion sucked his first 2years.

You're an idiot if you think a second year player averaging 16, 4, 3 with expected percentages "sucks".
You have no valid points to make about basketball if this is what youre suggesting.

[bondom34]

Except the part where Dion sucked his first 2years.

You're an idiot if you think a second year player averaging 16, 4, 3 with expected percentages "sucks".
You have no valid points to make about basketball if this is what youre suggesting.

1. No personal attacks.
2. .492 TS is not "expected percentages", its terrible.

[spearsy23]

Your mom?
I dont know, apparently im just saying these thigns tos ay them. Its not like you're ignoring whats said and i continue to say them over and over and over and over and over and over and over again. Again, go back one page. Go to the many threads where we've had this very same argument and you continued to ignore what was said so you can tell me how you feel.

Deflection. Just like always. What does Dion do better, and how does it translate?
Scoring? No.
Rebound? No.
Pass? No.
Defense? No.
Finishing? No.
Shooting? No.

He's a better ballhandler? I guess, but when all that translates to is him overdribbling it's actually a negative. The things Dion is good at are losing basketball.

You're the one ignoring 2.5 seasons.

Except i highlighted all that information just one or two pages go..... good thing you pay attention.

Placing the information there and ignoring it takes a willful attempt, but you did it.

You're the one saying Waiters has only played 40 games.

Wow... i literally spelled it out for you just two posts ago... pay attention..... ON OUR TEAM. ON OKC. His development with the Cavs is irrelevant to the point of OUR TEAMS player development.

His development is irrelevant to his development? Okay. But then why do you keep saying he showed improvement? I mean, what he did on the Cavs is irrelevant, right? Let's concentrate on his time in OKC. What did he improve on? Why didn't he stop sucking?

[Bravenewworld]

Except the part where Dion sucked his first 2years.

You're an idiot if you think a second year player averaging 16, 4, 3 with expected percentages "sucks".
You have no valid points to make about basketball if this is what youre suggesting.

1. No personal attacks.
2. .492 TS is not "expected percentages", its terrible.

Dont say stupid things.
And dont try to nit pick a few advanced stats to try to make an overall point. The reason we have advanced stats is to combined everything for a better overall picture of the player. Not to use them as singular points. You do this while completely ignoring that its 22 year old who is developing, any rational person who knows a single thing about basketball will have an understanding that young players, put up bad percentages. And its not about those percentages, but if we see them improving, the players base skill sets, etc. If you stop ignoring 90% of the conversation and Waiters, then you'd have a much better grasp on this. Instead you ignore all these things ive shown you so you can highlight one or two silly advanced stats.
Advanced stats dont mean anything ive youre not taking them as a whole. And whenever you suggest that 16-4-3 sucks for a second yer player... again, i never thought id be in such a ridiculous conversation..this is all you have to back it up. Its either the TS or the WS, and thats it. Which agian, fourth time, mean absolutely nothing if you're not looking at the player as whole.

And btw, ive shown you all of this before. Ive shown you how typically that crap does not matter in a young players career. But as always, the second i say something about Lamb you dislike, or Waiters you disagree with you, you flip the script. Youll go from realizing Lamb has to go, to defending him at all costs.

[bondom34]

You're an idiot if you think a second year player averaging 16, 4, 3 with expected percentages "sucks".
You have no valid points to make about basketball if this is what youre suggesting.

1. No personal attacks.
2. .492 TS is not "expected percentages", its terrible.

Dont say stupid things.
And dont try to nit pick a few advanced stats to try to make an overall point. The reason we have advanced stats is to combined everything for a better overall picture of the player. Not to use them as singular points. You do this while completely ignoring that its 22 year old who is developing, any rational person who knows a single thing about basketball will have an understanding that young players, put up bad percentages. And its not about those percentages, but if we see them improving, the players base skill sets, etc. If you stop ignoring 90% of the conversation and Waiters, then you'd have a much better grasp on this. Instead you ignore all these things ive shown you so you can highlight one or two silly advanced stats.
Advanced stats dont mean anything ive youre not taking them as a whole. And whenever you suggest that 16-4-3 sucks for a second yer player... again, i never thought id be in such a ridiculous conversation..this is all you have to back it up. Its either the TS or the WS, and thats it. Which agian, fourth time, mean absolutely nothing if you're not looking at the player as whole.

And btw, ive shown you all of this before. Ive shown you how typically that crap does not matter in a young players career. But as always, the second i say something about Lamb you dislike, or Waiters you disagree with you, you flip the script. Youll go from realizing Lamb has to go, to defending him at all costs.

You said he was scoring on "expected percentages", so that's what I used. You picked the stat, and he still sucked at it. What stats would you like to use, please show them so we can see what Dion is doing well instead of vague statements that noone other than you can observe, since your basketball knowledge is clearly vastly superior to ours. We mere morons can't see these things.

[spearsy23]

This is exactly why basic counting stats are stupid. They tell you nothing. 16/4/3 is (well wrong first of all, it was 16/3/3) ignoring the 2.2 turnovers, the 51% TS, the 14 PER, the 0 VORP, the fact that he was the de facto primary option on a sh*t team, and that it's his BEST season as a pro.

[Bravenewworld]

You said he was scoring on "expected percentages", so that's what I used. You picked the stat, and he still sucked at it. What stats would you like to use, please show them so we can see what Dion is doing well instead of vague statements that noone other than you can observe, since your basketball knowledge is clearly vastly superior to ours. We mere morons can't see these things.

What percentages do you expect such a young player who is most likely simply a developing role player to produce?
BTW, i did not pick anything. You did. You assumed "percentages" meant something specific when i was simply referencing them as a whole.
Does John Wall suck? Him and Waiters had the same TS% in their second years. Maybe Webster, he had 46% this past season.. guess he sucks. Oh look at that, Westbrooks' second year TS was worse than Waiters second year TS... .guess he sucks.
See how bull$hit this game is you want to play? This is not the first time ive pointed this out to you though, and since you just dismiss everything that does not fit your predetermined narrative, i imagine it wont be the last.

BTW, if you notice all those names start with W. Its because i "randomly" picked three players out of that category and what a shocker, we can make these players look bad when we do what youre doing. Again, what youre doing and pointing out, does not mean anything because we can apply this almost across the board.

You do get that most players we can point to, have these bad percentages, right? And its not because theyre bad players, its because when you first enter the NBA, that is what youre going to have issues with. As long as you show that youre still capable of scoring and producing, then its safe to assume those percentages will improve.

[Bravenewworld]

This is exactly why basic counting stats are stupid. They tell you nothing. 16/4/3 is (well wrong first of all, it was 16/3/3) ignoring the 2.2 turnovers, the 51% TS, the 14 PER, the 0 VORP, the fact that he was the de facto primary option on a sh*t team, and that it's his BEST season as a pro.

It tells us what a person is capable of and are far more telling then if you want to highlight one advanced stat. There's a reason why advanced stats are a system of numbers and not singular. I wish people like yourself would stop using them because you dont know how to. Pointing out one thing does not tell a complete story, and you seem to think it does.

When we add the "developing youth in their second year" aspect to it, then it tell us what they can become.
I mean, lets look at the hyperbole you have to spew to continue this narrative. "BEST season as a pro!" Out of 3, in only 1 he did poorly.
But hey if you put it like that, it makes it sound like maybe we are looking at a 6 year player... hummm... dunno.
You highlight the "**** team" thing, without mentioning that the majority of high scoring players and top options, generally develop on bad teams. Including Westbrook and Durant.
You highlight the turnovers as if 2.2 is unexpected for a second year player averaging 16.

You literally have to create all these ambiguous points that leave out so much valid information, so many proven points, to keep this going. When fact is, we can sit here all day long and do this game with nearly every player in the NBA.

[bondom34]

You said he was scoring on "expected percentages", so that's what I used. You picked the stat, and he still sucked at it. What stats would you like to use, please show them so we can see what Dion is doing well instead of vague statements that noone other than you can observe, since your basketball knowledge is clearly vastly superior to ours. We mere morons can't see these things.

What percentages do you expect such a young player who is most likely simply a developing role player to produce?
BTW, i did not pick anything. You did. You assumed "percentages" meant something specific when i was simply referencing them as a whole.
Does John Wall suck? Him and Waiters had the same TS% in their second years. Maybe Webster, he had 46% this past season.. guess he sucks. Oh look at that, Westbrooks' second year TS was worse than Waiters second year TS... .guess he sucks.
See how bull$hit this game is you want to play? This is not the first time ive pointed this out to you though, and since you just dismiss everything that does not fit your predetermined narrative, i imagine it wont be the last.

You do get that most players we can point to, have these bad percentages, right? And its not because theyre bad players, its because when you first enter the NBA, that is what youre going to have issues with. As long as you show that youre still capable of scoring and producing, then its safe to assume those percentages will improve.

I assumed percentages meant....well percentages. And when you're looking at percentages for a guy who's known to be a bad shooter and saying "does he suck", well he would if you remove the skills he's good at and try to make him a shooter. Waiters isn't a PG, he's a 2, and he can't score. Its incredibly rare for a SG to actually be any good after being that poor in TS as a rook, looking it up there are about 2-3 who have done it in recent years, out of over 60. Also, Martell Webster? The Wiz are trying to dump his contract, he kinda does suck.

Also, don't evade the language filter, I'll say that here and let it slide, but another slip and a warning.

[Bravenewworld]

I assumed percentages meant....well percentages. And when you're looking at percentages for a guy who's known to be a bad shooter and saying "does he suck", well he would if you remove the skills he's good at and try to make him a shooter. Waiters isn't a PG, he's a 2, and he can't score. Its incredibly rare for a SG to actually be any good after being that poor in TS as a rook, looking it up there are about 2-3 who have done it in recent years, out of over 60. Also, Martell Webster? The Wiz are trying to dump his contract, he kinda does suck.

Also, don't evade the language filter, I'll say that here and let it slide, but another slip and a warning.

At what point do you come to the conclusion that a 21 year old, at the time, "cant score" when they are averaging 16 points, at a normal TS (you brought it up) for second year players?
Should i go back over the W's? Maybe bring up some more players that you would never say this about, but have very similar TS's for some of those years?

So the TS now matters if youre a PG or SG? Why? Exactly what would make it acceptable to dismiss Westbrook (who plays more like a SG) or Wall? Hurry up and figure out how to move those goal posts.

I just don't understand how you're reaching these conclusions. The goal posts are constantly moving with you.

" Its incredibly rare for a SG to actually be any good after being that poor in TS as a rook, looking it up there are about 2-3 who have done it in recent years, out of over 60."

How about you cite all of that. Show us the players that fall into that category and their details. Because im calling BS on that. Unless 55 of those players are second round picks, bad players, bad numbers (never above 1ppg average), etc. This really seems like another one of your false narratives. Because again, we see these poor TS's with nearly every player and anyone paying attention, would come to the conclusion that its simply something we generally see with young players.


....... GWall, apparently he has sucked his entire career. Hes been very inconsistent with his TS... no value for that guy ever. Hios 18-10 as a small forward clearly was not valuable to anyone.

Kemba Walker... well he must be complete trash. Hes only broken .500 TS once.

You want me to keep going with this? Im not even out of the W's and literally every single player ive checked, we can apply this to and call them garbage...... go on? I got three more windows open for players and i have not look at them yet... lets do so shall we?

Oh here's one... this guy is just complete sh#t.... Dwayne Wade. Looks like he had a year that matched Waiters second TS%... man, talk about terrible players. And its not like hes a shooting guard.

Oh wow, now this Dominique Wilkins guy... pssh.... i wouldn't put him on a team if i was paid 2 million dollars to do so, thats how much he sucks. For 9 of 15 years of his career, his TS was worse than Waiters... clearly he sucks monkey balls. I mean, if youre that allergic to Waiters because of this, then Wilkins you must avoid like super aids.

David West, who by all assumptions should almost always have a higher TS right? Wouldn't that be the case for big men since they almost always take higher percentage shots?
Lets see... he's played 12 years... of those 12 years, 7 have been worse or on par with Waiters TS.

How about we two more players, just two, im having fun with this. Its taking your point and sh$tting on it with every new tab.

Andrew Wiggins... well in his first year he had a worse TS than Waiters second year. Clearly he is trash.

Deron Williams... hummmmm... i wonder....10 years exp. 4 with the same or worse TS.

Do you get the point? Do you understand that not one single player i clicked on, i could not highlight poor TS years?
Do i need hammer this in your head anymore or are you getting whats being shown to you?
Im running out of W's man, what letter should i move to next?

[Pillendreher]

I don't understand what you're trying to prove. While I don't think that Waiters can't get better, there's no denying that he's been really bad so far (at least in my opinion). He shows a promise in a certain way, but his game does the talking in a bad way.

[bondom34]

I assumed percentages meant....well percentages. And when you're looking at percentages for a guy who's known to be a bad shooter and saying "does he suck", well he would if you remove the skills he's good at and try to make him a shooter. Waiters isn't a PG, he's a 2, and he can't score. Its incredibly rare for a SG to actually be any good after being that poor in TS as a rook, looking it up there are about 2-3 who have done it in recent years, out of over 60. Also, Martell Webster? The Wiz are trying to dump his contract, he kinda does suck.

Also, don't evade the language filter, I'll say that here and let it slide, but another slip and a warning.

At what point do you come to the conclusion that a 21 year old, at the time, "cant score" when they are averaging 16 points, at a normal TS (you brought it up) for second year players?
Should i go back over the W's? Maybe bring up some more players that you would never say this about, but have very similar TS's for some of those years?

So the TS now matters if youre a PG or SG? Why? Exactly what would make it acceptable to dismiss Westbrook (who plays more like a SG) or Wall? Hurry up and figure out how to move those goal posts.

I just don't understand how you're reaching these conclusions. The goal posts are constantly moving with you.

" Its incredibly rare for a SG to actually be any good after being that poor in TS as a rook, looking it up there are about 2-3 who have done it in recent years, out of over 60."

How about you cite all of that. Show us the players that fall into that category and their details. Because im calling BS on that. Unless 55 of those players are second round picks, bad players, bad numbers (never above 1ppg average), etc. This really seems like another one of your false narratives. Because again, we see these poor TS's with nearly every player and anyone paying attention, would come to the conclusion that its simply something we generally see with young players.


....... GWall, apparently he has sucked his entire career. Hes been very inconsistent with his TS... no value for that guy ever. Hios 18-10 as a small forward clearly was not valuable to anyone.

Kemba Walker... well he must be complete trash. Hes only broken .500 TS once.

You want me to keep going with this? Im not even out of the W's and literally every single player ive checked, we can apply this to and call them garbage...... go on? I got three more windows open for players and i have not look at them yet... lets do so shall we?

Oh here's one... this guy is just complete sh#t.... Dwayne Wade. Looks like he had a year that matched Waiters second TS%... man, talk about terrible players. And its not like hes a shooting guard.

Oh wow, now this Dominique Wilkins guy... pssh.... i wouldn't put him on a team if i was paid 2 million dollars to do so, thats how much he sucks. For 9 of 15 years of his career, his TS was worse than Waiters... clearly he sucks monkey balls. I mean, if youre that allergic to Waiters because of this, then Wilkins you must avoid like super aids.

David West, who by all assumptions should almost always have a higher TS right? Wouldn't that be the case for big men since they almost always take higher percentage shots?
Lets see... he's played 12 years... of those 12 years, 7 have been worse or on par with Waiters TS.

How about we two more players, just two, im having fun with this. Its taking your point and sh$tting on it with every new tab.

Andrew Wiggins... well in his first year he had a worse TS than Waiters second year. Clearly he is trash.

Deron Williams... hummmmm... i wonder....10 years exp. 4 with the same or worse TS.

Do you get the point? Do you understand that not one single player i clicked on, i could not highlight poor TS years?
Do i need hammer this in your head anymore or are you getting whats being shown to you?
Im running out of W's man, what letter should i move to next?

I don't know what you're doing w/ the Ws thing. But here....

You don't compare shooting for players when you look at them and they have different roles. Waiters isn't John Wall, he's not David West, or D Will. He's not doing anything else they're doing. This is the worst argument I've seen, because you're all over the place and just picking random players. Look at SGs, and see who has a sub .500 TS as a rook and who's actually any good, there aren't many. http://bkref.com/tiny/m9CUt

There. Guards w/ a sub .500 TS as a rookie, there's maybe 3 guys there who are actually good NBA SGs. Westbrook isn't a 2, and Dion isn't doing the non-shooting things he is. Dion isn't blocking shots like Wilkins. I don't even....

Dude, he's awful. Go and post this on any other board and see what anyone thinks because I'm tired of it too, I'm at work and am exhausted and busy. Go tell the PC board or whoever about Dion and get opinions. I know you won't because you'll insist you're right and the only one who can see his mad basketball skills, but if you want to prove anyone wrong, do it there, there's plenty of smart people there who are willing to discuss. Take it as a personal challenge, please do. I'll be looking for a thread or something, but I'm done here because you're just going all over the place.

[Bravenewworld]

Scoring? No.
Rebound? No.
Pass? No.
Defense? No.
Finishing? No.
Shooting? No.

For some reason i cant get the boxes to export, but im going to post this so you cant say i didnt. I suggest following the links since they have a better format.

Waiters
http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... edi01.html

Total-
Season Age Tm Lg Pos G GS MP FG FGA FG% 3P 3PA 3P% 2P 2PA 2P% eFG% FT FTA FT% ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS
2012-13 21 CLE NBA SG 61 48 1756 336 815 .412 63 203 .310 273 612 .446 .451 159 213 .746 22 127 149 183 59 16 121 113 894
2013-14 22 CLE NBA SG 70 24 2072 430 993 .433 92 250 .368 338 743 .455 .479 161 235 .685 32 163 195 209 63 17 154 153 1113
2014-15 23 TOT NBA SG 80 23 2208 375 946 .396 73 246 .297 302 700 .431 .435 117 172 .680 41 151 192 163 90 21 113 155 940
2014-15 23 CLE NBA SG 33 3 786 138 342 .404 22 86 .256 116 256 .453 .436 47 60 .783 12 45 57 74 44 10 50 59 345
2014-15 23 OKC NBA SG 47 20 1422 237 604 .392 51 160 .319 186 444 .419 .435 70 112 .625 29 106 135 89 46 11 63 96 595
Career NBA 211 95 6036 1141 2754 .414 228 699 .326 913 2055 .444 .456 437 620 .705 95 441 536 555 212 54 388 421 2947

3 seasons CLE NBA 164 75 4614 904 2150 .420 177 539 .328 727 1611 .451 .462 367 508 .722 66 335 401 466 166 43 325 325 2352
1 season OKC NBA 47 20 1422 237 604 .392 51 160 .319 186 444 .419 .435 70 112 .625 29 106 135 89 46 11 63 96 595

Per Game-
Season,Age,Tm,Lg,Pos,G,GS,MP,FG,FGA,FG%,3P,3PA,3P%,2P,2PA,2P%,eFG%,FT,FTA,FT%,ORB,DRB,TRB,AST,STL,BLK,TOV,PF,PTS
2012-13,21,CLE,NBA,SG,61,48,28.8,5.5,13.4,.412,1.0,3.3,.310,4.5,10.0,.446,.451,2.6,3.5,.746,0.4,2.1,2.4,3.0,1.0,0.3,2.0,1.9,14.7
2013-14,22,CLE,NBA,SG,70,24,29.6,6.1,14.2,.433,1.3,3.6,.368,4.8,10.6,.455,.479,2.3,3.4,.685,0.5,2.3,2.8,3.0,0.9,0.2,2.2,2.2,15.9
2014-15,23,TOT,NBA,SG,80,23,27.6,4.7,11.8,.396,0.9,3.1,.297,3.8,8.8,.431,.435,1.5,2.2,.680,0.5,1.9,2.4,2.0,1.1,0.3,1.4,1.9,11.8
2014-15,23,CLE,NBA,SG,33,3,23.8,4.2,10.4,.404,0.7,2.6,.256,3.5,7.8,.453,.436,1.4,1.8,.783,0.4,1.4,1.7,2.2,1.3,0.3,1.5,1.8,10.5
2014-15,23,OKC,NBA,SG,47,20,30.3,5.0,12.9,.392,1.1,3.4,.319,4.0,9.4,.419,.435,1.5,2.4,.625,0.6,2.3,2.9,1.9,1.0,0.2,1.3,2.0,12.7
Career,,,NBA,,211,95,28.6,5.4,13.1,.414,1.1,3.3,.326,4.3,9.7,.444,.456,2.1,2.9,.705,0.5,2.1,2.5,2.6,1.0,0.3,1.8,2.0,14.0
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
3 seasons,,CLE,NBA,,164,75,28.1,5.5,13.1,.420,1.1,3.3,.328,4.4,9.8,.451,.462,2.2,3.1,.722,0.4,2.0,2.4,2.8,1.0,0.3,2.0,2.0,14.3
1 season,,OKC,NBA,,47,20,30.3,5.0,12.9,.392,1.1,3.4,.319,4.0,9.4,.419,.435,1.5,2.4,.625,0.6,2.3,2.9,1.9,1.0,0.2,1.3,2.0,12.7

Advanced-
Season,Age,Tm,Lg,Pos,G,MP,PER,TS%,3PAr,FTr,ORB%,DRB%,TRB%,AST%,STL%,BLK%,TOV%,USG%,,OWS,DWS,WS,WS/48,,OBPM,DBPM,BPM,VORP
2012-13,21,CLE,NBA,SG,61,1756,13.7,.492,.249,.261,1.4,8.8,4.9,18.4,1.7,0.7,11.8,26.1,,0.3,0.6,0.9,.026,,-0.5,-2.7,-3.2,-0.5
2013-14,22,CLE,NBA,SG,70,2072,14.0,.508,.252,.237,1.7,9.0,5.3,18.2,1.6,0.7,12.3,26.9,,0.3,1.3,1.6,.037,,-0.2,-1.8,-2.1,0.0
2014-15,23,TOT,NBA,SG,80,2208,10.9,.460,.260,.182,2.1,7.4,4.8,11.9,2.1,0.8,10.0,22.5,,-0.6,1.7,1.1,.025,,-2.1,-1.5,-3.6,-0.9
2014-15,23,CLE,NBA,SG,33,786,12.2,.468,.251,.175,1.8,6.5,4.2,15.6,2.9,1.0,12.0,24.0,,-0.3,0.7,0.5,.029,,-2.1,-1.0,-3.1,-0.2
2014-15,23,OKC,NBA,SG,47,1422,10.1,.455,.265,.185,2.2,7.9,5.1,9.8,1.6,0.6,8.8,21.7,,-0.3,1.0,0.7,.023,,-2.2,-1.7,-3.8,-0.7
Career,,,NBA,,211,6036,12.8,.487,.254,.225,1.7,8.4,5.0,15.9,1.8,0.7,11.4,25.1,,0.0,3.7,3.7,.029,,-1.0,-2.0,-3.0,-1.5
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
3 seasons,,CLE,NBA,,164,4614,13.6,.495,.251,.236,1.6,8.5,4.9,17.8,1.9,0.8,12.0,26.1,,0.3,2.7,3.0,.031,,-0.6,-2.0,-2.7,-0.8
1 season,,OKC,NBA,,47,1422,10.1,.455,.265,.185,2.2,7.9,5.1,9.8,1.6,0.6,8.8,21.7,,-0.3,1.0,0.7,.023,,-2.2,-1.7,-3.8,-0.7

Shooting-,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,2-Pt Field Goals,2-Pt Field Goals,2-Pt Field Goals,3-Pt Field Goals,3-Pt Field Goals,3-Pt Field Goals,3-Pt Field Goals,3-Pt Field Goals
,,,,,,,,,% of FGA by Distance,% of FGA by Distance,% of FGA by Distance,% of FGA by Distance,% of FGA by Distance,% of FGA by Distance,FG% by Distance,FG% by Distance,FG% by Distance,FG% by Distance,FG% by Distance,FG% by Distance,,Dunks,Dunks,,Corner,Corner,Heaves,Heaves
Season,Age,Tm,Lg,Pos,G,MP,FG%,Dist.,2P,0-3,3-10,10-16,16 <3,3P,2P,0-3,3-10,10-16,16 <3,3P,%Ast'd,%FGA,Md.,%Ast'd,%3PA,3P%,Att.,Md.
2012-13,21,CLE,NBA,SG,61,1756,.412,12.9,.751,.337,.108,.063,.243,.249,.446,.538,.307,.333,.409,.310,.311,.040,29,.762,.177,.250,0,0
2013-14,22,CLE,NBA,SG,70,2072,.433,14.0,.748,.284,.074,.099,.292,.252,.455,.525,.288,.449,.431,.368,.355,.035,29,.870,.204,.373,1,0
2014-15,23,TOT,NBA,SG,80,2208,.396,13.0,.740,.335,.089,.055,.261,.260,.431,.508,.286,.423,.385,.297,.371,.024,20,.849,.447,.336,0,0
2014-15,23,CLE,NBA,SG,33,786,.404,13.1,.749,.342,.085,.035,.287,.251,.453,.556,.345,.417,.367,.256,.491,.023,6,.864,.442,.395,0,0
2014-15,23,OKC,NBA,SG,47,1422,.392,13.0,.735,.331,.091,.066,.247,.265,.419,.480,.255,.425,.396,.319,.296,.025,14,.843,.450,.306,0,0
Career,,,NBA,,211,6036,.414,13.3,.746,.317,.089,.073,.267,.254,.444,.523,.294,.413,.410,.326,.347,.033,78,.833,.282,.330,1,0
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
3 seasons,,CLE,NBA,,164,4614,.420,13.4,.749,.313,.088,.075,.273,.251,.451,.536,.305,.410,.413,.328,.360,.035,64,.831,.232,.344,1,0
1 season,,OKC,NBA,,47,1422,.392,13.0,.735,.331,.091,.066,.247,.265,.419,.480,.255,.425,.396,.319,.296,.025,14,.843,.450,.306,0,0


Jeremy Lamb
http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... bje01.html

Totals
Season,Age,Tm,Lg,Pos,G,GS,MP,FG,FGA,FG%,3P,3PA,3P%,2P,2PA,2P%,eFG%,FT,FTA,FT%,ORB,DRB,TRB,AST,STL,BLK,TOV,PF,PTS
2012-13,20,OKC,NBA,SF,23,0,147,24,68,.353,9,30,.300,15,38,.395,.419,14,14,1.000,5,13,18,5,2,2,6,13,71
2013-14,21,OKC,NBA,SG,78,0,1538,263,609,.432,88,247,.356,175,362,.483,.504,51,64,.797,27,162,189,115,56,26,61,143,665
2014-15,22,OKC,NBA,SG,47,8,633,104,250,.416,38,111,.342,66,139,.475,.492,49,55,.891,8,99,107,44,21,6,27,52,295
Career,,,NBA,,148,8,2318,391,927,.422,135,388,.348,256,539,.475,.495,114,133,.857,40,274,314,164,79,34,94,208,1031

Per Game
Season,Age,Tm,Lg,Pos,G,GS,MP,FG,FGA,FG%,3P,3PA,3P%,2P,2PA,2P%,eFG%,FT,FTA,FT%,ORB,DRB,TRB,AST,STL,BLK,TOV,PF,PTS
2012-13,20,OKC,NBA,SF,23,0,6.4,1.0,3.0,.353,0.4,1.3,.300,0.7,1.7,.395,.419,0.6,0.6,1.000,0.2,0.6,0.8,0.2,0.1,0.1,0.3,0.6,3.1
2013-14,21,OKC,NBA,SG,78,0,19.7,3.4,7.8,.432,1.1,3.2,.356,2.2,4.6,.483,.504,0.7,0.8,.797,0.3,2.1,2.4,1.5,0.7,0.3,0.8,1.8,8.5
2014-15,22,OKC,NBA,SG,47,8,13.5,2.2,5.3,.416,0.8,2.4,.342,1.4,3.0,.475,.492,1.0,1.2,.891,0.2,2.1,2.3,0.9,0.4,0.1,0.6,1.1,6.3
Career,,,NBA,,148,8,15.7,2.6,6.3,.422,0.9,2.6,.348,1.7,3.6,.475,.495,0.8,0.9,.857,0.3,1.9,2.1,1.1,0.5,0.2,0.6,1.4,7.0

Advanced
Season,Age,Tm,Lg,Pos,G,MP,PER,TS%,3PAr,FTr,ORB%,DRB%,TRB%,AST%,STL%,BLK%,TOV%,USG%,,OWS,DWS,WS,WS/48,,OBPM,DBPM,BPM,VORP
2012-13,20,OKC,NBA,SF,23,147,11.2,.479,.441,.206,4.2,9.4,7.0,5.4,0.7,1.0,7.5,24.8,,0.1,0.1,0.2,.058,,-2.3,-4.8,-7.1,-0.2
2013-14,21,OKC,NBA,SG,78,1538,13.4,.522,.406,.105,2.1,11.3,6.9,11.8,1.8,1.4,8.7,20.1,,1.4,1.8,3.3,.102,,-0.3,-0.9,-1.2,0.3
2014-15,22,OKC,NBA,SG,47,633,14.9,.538,.444,.220,1.4,16.5,9.1,10.9,1.7,0.7,9.0,20.5,,1.0,0.7,1.6,.123,,0.0,-1.6,-1.6,0.1
Career,,,NBA,,148,2318,13.7,.523,.419,.143,2.0,12.6,7.5,11.1,1.7,1.2,8.7,20.5,,2.5,2.6,5.1,.105,,-0.4,-1.3,-1.7,0.2

Shooting
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,2-Pt Field Goals,2-Pt Field Goals,2-Pt Field Goals,3-Pt Field Goals,3-Pt Field Goals,3-Pt Field Goals,3-Pt Field Goals,3-Pt Field Goals
,,,,,,,,,% of FGA by Distance,% of FGA by Distance,% of FGA by Distance,% of FGA by Distance,% of FGA by Distance,% of FGA by Distance,FG% by Distance,FG% by Distance,FG% by Distance,FG% by Distance,FG% by Distance,FG% by Distance,,Dunks,Dunks,,Corner,Corner,Heaves,Heaves
Season,Age,Tm,Lg,Pos,G,MP,FG%,Dist.,2P,0-3,3-10,10-16,16 <3,3P,2P,0-3,3-10,10-16,16 <3,3P,%Ast'd,%FGA,Md.,%Ast'd,%3PA,3P%,Att.,Md.
2012-13,20,OKC,NBA,SF,23,147,.353,16.4,.559,.147,.162,.074,.176,.441,.395,.400,.364,.400,.417,.300,.533,.029,1,.889,.133,.250,0,0
2013-14,21,OKC,NBA,SG,78,1538,.432,15.7,.594,.182,.144,.131,.136,.406,.483,.685,.375,.425,.386,.356,.566,.034,21,.898,.271,.343,3,0
2014-15,22,OKC,NBA,SG,47,633,.416,16.5,.556,.160,.148,.108,.140,.444,.475,.750,.459,.259,.343,.342,.394,.020,5,.763,.135,.267,2,0
Career,,,NBA,,148,2318,.422,15.9,.581,.174,.147,.121,.140,.419,.475,.683,.397,.384,.377,.348,.520,.030,27,.859,.222,.326,5,0

[Pillendreher]

http://bkref.com/tiny/cZ6uC

I don't see what you see. In every relevant category Lamb has been better since both players came into the league.

[Bravenewworld]

I don't know what you're doing w/ the Ws thing. But here.....

What dont you get about it?
The only real measurable thing you've given me as to why he would be a bad player, is his TS% being bad. And my point is, you can apply this nearly across the board. If you're saying that he is a bad player because of this, or its a major factor in why he is bad, or even that we don't expect this out of younger players... that was the point. Literally every single player i clicked on, no matter how good or bad they were, had bad TS%s at points in their career. Most, early on. If this is the case, then how are you applying this as some kind of measuring tool?

You don't compare shooting for players when you look at them and they have different roles. Waiters isn't John Wall, he's not David West, or D Will. He's not doing anything else they're doing. This is the worst argument I've seen, because you're all over the place and just picking random players. Look at SGs, and see who has a sub .500 TS as a rook and who's actually any good, there aren't many. http://bkref.com/tiny/m9CUt

A guard is a guard, dude.
Ill leave the power forwards out of it, but a point guard and a shooting guard, are not so different that we cant compare their shooting numbers. The basic definitions of the 1 and 2 were created for laymen and novices anyway. They are simply general guides to go by for that position, but not at all applicable across the board. They are just beginning points so you have a better idea of how plays are ran and what is expected.

BTW, out of that whole list i picked 2 non-guards. But again, the point was to show that we can randomly pick players and the thing you're saying makes Waiters suck, can be applied to every single one of those random players as well.

And what are you showing me with that link? I dont really get it and i dont get how it relates to Waiters.

Parker? Joe Johnson? Richardson? dWill, Felton, Rondo, Suckey, Affalo, Wall, Turner, Shumpert, Westbrook, KCP, Tinley, Bogan, MCW,Thabo, Meeks.... wtf are you trying to show here? It does not seem to be working in your favor whatever it is. "sub 500 ts as rook and whos actually any good, there arent many".... Im at 60 and the majority of the top 60, are good.... wtf....

On that list btw, Waiters ( at 40 ) is ahead of Monta Ellis, who im sure you think sucks, and yes he is a split guard. Henderson, Bledsoe, Walker, Green... oh look at that, Lamb (who is at 96), and JR Smith who is at 100.... I guess Lamb is really another JR Smith.

I cant even do the rest of the post.... if this is an indication of whats ahead i just cant. Im laughing way too hard.

[bondom34]

I don't know what you're doing w/ the Ws thing. But here.....

What dont you get about it?
The only real measurable thing you've given me as to why he would be a bad player, is his TS% being bad. And my point is, you can apply this nearly across the board. If you're saying that he is a bad player because of this, or its a major factor in why he is bad, or even that we don't expect this out of younger players... that was the point. Literally every single player i clicked on, no matter how good or bad they were, had bad TS%s at points in their career. Most, early on. If this is the case, then how are you applying this as some kind of measuring tool?

You don't compare shooting for players when you look at them and they have different roles. Waiters isn't John Wall, he's not David West, or D Will. He's not doing anything else they're doing. This is the worst argument I've seen, because you're all over the place and just picking random players. Look at SGs, and see who has a sub .500 TS as a rook and who's actually any good, there aren't many. http://bkref.com/tiny/m9CUt

A guard is a guard, dude.
Ill leave the power forwards out of it, but a point guard and a shooting guard, are not so different that we cant compare their shooting numbers. The basic definitions of the 1 and 2 were created for laymen and novices anyway. They are simply general guides to go by for that position, but not at all applicable across the board. They are just beginning points so you have a better idea of how plays are ran and what is expected.

BTW, out of that whole list i picked 2 non-guards. But again, the point was to show that we can randomly pick players and the thing you're saying makes Waiters suck, can be applied to every single one of those random players as well.

And what are you showing me with that link? I dont really get it and i dont get how it relates to Waiters.

Parker? Joe Johnson? Richardson? dWill, Felton, Rondo, Suckey, Affalo, Wall, Turner, Shumpert, Westbrook, KCP, Tinley, Bogan, MCW,Thabo, Meeks.... wtf are you trying to show here? It does not seem to be working in your favor whatever it is. "sub 500 ts as rook and whos actually any good, there arent many".... Im at 60 and the majority of the top 60, are good.... wtf....

I cant even do the rest of the post.... if this is an indication of whats ahead i just cant. Im laughing way too hard.

1. No, I'm showing he's been bad at multiple things, TS is one. He's also a poor finisher, doesn't look for open teammates, overshoots, has poor shot selection, and isn't very good defensively, thoguh I haven't focused on that here.

2. A guard isn't a guard. I dont expect a guy like John Wall to do the same things as a guy like Kyle Korver, but they're both guards. You don't take a guy like Wall, who's main criticism is he can't shoot, and use him as an example when Waiters does nothing Wall does well.

3. I'm showing a list of guards with sub .500 TS as rookies. There aren't many SGs on that list who are any good.

Again, take this to the PC board, please, I'm ready to lock this up.

[Bravenewworld]

1. No, I'm showing he's been bad at multiple things, TS is one. He's also a poor finisher, doesn't look for open teammates, overshoots, has poor shot selection, and isn't very good defensively, thoguh I haven't focused on that here.

So you're highlighting 2 things? 2 Advanced stats, that even when combined or used alone, don't at all represent the player and how good or bad they are or can be?
Again, and i edited my last post so you might not have seen it...

On that list btw, Waiters ( at 40 ) is ahead of Monta Ellis, who im sure you think sucks, and yes he is a split guard. Henderson, Bledsoe, Walker, Green... oh look at that, Lamb (who is at 96), and JR Smith who is at 100.... I guess Lamb is really another JR Smith.

But when i see a list with Parker, JJ, Monta, Richardson, Rondo, Stuckey, etc. and youre saying "Here, Waiters fits in this group right here".... how in the holy hell do you expect me to come to the conclusion that he is a bad player? Does that actually make sense to you? All you've done is shown some negative aspects of his game and if youre being honest and then showing this link, you'd come to the conclusion that those negative aspects dont actually say anything overall of the player.Unless of course you're saying that Monta Ellis sucks, Tony Parker sucks, Joe johnson sucks, etc.
This is not a good way to prove your point. If anything, its just backing up everything ive been saying. I get what youre saying, but given the list you just provided, it should show you that what youre saying is not an indicator for anything. There is zero consistency on that list, we cant at all draw any conclusion, except for that its common among players.

2. A guard isn't a guard. I dont expect a guy like John Wall to do the same things as a guy like Kyle Korver, but they're both guards. You don't take a guy like Wall, who's main criticism is he can't shoot, and use him as an example when Waiters does nothing Wall does well.

A guard is a guard. The skill sets are the same, just different focuses depending on system and coach. If you have Phil, you need your shooting guard to do what you expect a point guard to do. And a point guard (paxton, skiles, fisher, etc) to do what Korver does.
They are interchangeable positions and the majority of point guards on that list you provided, also spend time at the 2. Because again, its the same required skill set.
Your little Wall and Waiters thing is just a comparison between players, not positions. Even with the Cavs, Waiters was used similar to Harden on OKC. And Harden on OKC was a 1/2. A quick scoring 2 while RWD and/or KD was on the bench for a bit, who need to handle the ball and distribute as well.

http://www.rollingstone.com/culture/fea ... d-20141222

[bondom34]

1. No, I'm showing he's been bad at multiple things, TS is one. He's also a poor finisher, doesn't look for open teammates, overshoots, has poor shot selection, and isn't very good defensively, thoguh I haven't focused on that here.

So you're highlighting 2 things? 2 Advanced stats, that even when combined or used alone, don't at all represent the player and how good or bad they are or can be?
Again, and i edited my last post so you might not have seen it...

On that list btw, Waiters ( at 40 ) is ahead of Monta Ellis, who im sure you think sucks, and yes he is a split guard. Henderson, Bledsoe, Walker, Green... oh look at that, Lamb (who is at 96), and JR Smith who is at 100.... I guess Lamb is really another JR Smith.

But when i see a list with Parker, JJ, Monta, Richardson, Rondo, Stuckey, etc. and youre saying "Here, Waiters fits in this group right here".... how in the holy hell do you expect me to come to the conclusion that he is a bad player? Does that actually make sense to you? All you've done is shown some negative aspects of his game and if youre being honest and then showing this link, you'd come to the conclusion that those negative aspects dont actually say anything overall of the player.Unless of course you're saying that Monta Ellis sucks, Tony Parker sucks, Joe johnson sucks, etc.
This is not a good way to prove your point. If anything, its just backing up everything ive been saying. I get what youre saying, but given the list you just provided, it should show you that what youre saying is not an indicator for anything. There is zero consistency on that list, we cant at all draw any conclusion, except for that its common among players.

2. A guard isn't a guard. I dont expect a guy like John Wall to do the same things as a guy like Kyle Korver, but they're both guards. You don't take a guy like Wall, who's main criticism is he can't shoot, and use him as an example when Waiters does nothing Wall does well.

A guard is a guard. The skill sets are the same, just different focuses depending on system and coach. If you have Phil, you need your shooting guard to do what you expect a point guard to do. And a point guard (paxton, skiles, fisher, etc) to do what Korver does.
They are interchangeable positions and the majority of point guards on that list you provided, also spend time at the 2. Because again, its the same required skill set.
Your little Wall and Waiters thing is just a comparison between players, not positions. Even with the Cavs, Waiters was used similar to Harden on OKC. And Harden on OKC was a 1/2. A quick scoring 2 while RWD and/or KD was on the bench for a bit, who need to handle the ball and distribute as well.

http://www.rollingstone.com/culture/fea ... d-20141222

Rolling stone.....great for sports.

Also, JR isn't very good, and Dion isn't as good at anything else Bledsoe, Green, Ellis, or Kemba are. Hendo's not great either, and Rondo just killed the Mavs. You're making zero sense and rambling, as usual. Continue here:

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1392268&p=43893512#p43893512