Bellator General Discussion and Info

[Cammo101]

It seems like a lot of those early fighters are in dire straights whether it be braindamage in or jail or impoverished now. I mean even by the time pride came around it was becoming a career path. Imagine a world where mma doesn't exist, okay now imagine someone approaches you and asks you to fight in a tournament in a cage with no rules, no time limits, etc. The type of person to accept a proposition like that probably isn't going to have the best long-term outlook.

1000% agreed.

[REDDzone]

Jimmy Smith's take on the "fix". I think he's right. Fixing this fight between old men just isn't worth risking your entire promotion over:

Was asked to weigh in on this topic, and thought I would give my 2-cents considering I have been hearing a LOT about it.

I can only speak from the promotional/broadcast side of the equation of course, if Ken and/or Kimbo had some personal (and highly illegal) agreement to fix the fight they certainly didn't let Bellator in on it. For those who feel that Bellator would fix the fight I offer the following:

To get caught fixing a fight is tantamount to promotional suicide. ANYONE (the UFC, Dana, Coker, the Fertitta's, etc) who is caught influencing the outcome of a fight will never legally be allowed to promote a fight again (outside of perhaps a bare-knuckle fight on an indian reservation, but even that would be unlikely). The state would pull your promoter's license so fast it would make you nauseous. With that in mind you have to weigh the "risk vs reward" equation for fixing a fight, especially a televised show of the magnitude of Bellator 138.

MMA, unlike boxing, doesn't often work on the "undefeated mega-fight" system where there is a TON of money riding on 2 fighters overcoming certain fights to make the "big one" happen. Most fighters in MMA have records that would make them journeymen in boxing, even some of the biggest names in the sport. MMA doesn't have any title sanctioning bodies like boxing, there are no rival promoters on the opposing sides of 2 fighters, and the national promotions have virtually unlimited discretion in deciding who fights who, when, and for what title. There is no need for a fix to make a certain fight happen, the only thing necessary is the promotion themselves putting the fight together.

That is my general argument against most cries of "fix!!" in the MMA world (like I stated before: from a PROMOTIONAL point of view). Why would Bellator, the UFC, or anyone else take the ASTRONOMICAL risk of fixing a fight when they can make whatever fight they want with a fan base that is fairly forgiving of a loss?

Now, dealing with the specifics of Ken/Kimbo:

Of all the fights one COULD fix, why the hell would anyone fix a fight between two fighters who are not in their competitive primes and have roughly the same fan appeal? Kimbo winning doesn't do much more for Bellator than Ken winning. Neither fighter is going to be fighting the elite at HWT or 205, so there aren't any "Megafights" that a fix would set either fighter up for. Also, the crowd was going NUTS for Ken! To favor Kimbo over him wouldn't necessarily be a brilliant stroke of promotional genius. In a fight where one guy has considerably more marketing draw than the other the accusation of a fix would make a bit more sense. In this case they were roughy equal: both draw a ton of fan interest but have no real long-term prospects amongst the elite in their divisions. The "qui-bono" question (gotta love Latin) is answered fairly simply: Bellator doesn't really benefit any more with Kimbo winning then they would if it had been Ken because neither guy is going to be challenging for a belt in the near future.

The one question I want to ask people who doubt the veracity of the fight is: What kind of fight did you expect?

Ken has built his reputation on his submission skills, but he has always been a guy who generally forced a submission rather than relied on pure technique. If you recall his fight with Don Frye, he wrenched on leg locks several times and wasn't able to get the proper angle to finish the fight. It was a technical issue that dogged much of his career. He was squeezing the hell out of Kimbo's neck as hard as he could but (as some on this thread pointed out) he failed to engage his hips at all and that proved to be the difference. I thought he burned his arms out trying to muscle the choke out of a much bigger fighter. It was fairly clear to me that once Kimbo got out it was only a matter of time. Ken had cardio issues against Fujita and Tito and that was EONS ago in MMA years. He gave everything he had to one choke and it didn't pan out, as soon as he took a solid one to the chin that was it. Even the most ardent Ken supporter would have conceded that it wouldn't take many from Kimbo to end the fight and it didn't.

What we saw at Bellator 138 was, in my opinion, the best effort of a fighter who didn't have that much left to give. As soon as Ken took a solid shot he turned to Big John and shook his head, he simply wanted no more. Its unfortunate, but a performance like that doesn't require a fix in MMA, it requires a fighter who sees no merit in going any further and taking more of a beating.

Those are my honest thoughts, do with them what you will.

Thanks guys, you always great!

Jimmy

[REDDzone]

Bellator averages 1.6 million viewers, peaked at 2 million during the main event. Also won the timeslot for adults 18-49. I'm pretty sure it wasn't live on the west coast, but on tape delay. So honestly the ratings would have been even higher.

http://themmareport.com/2015/06/bellator-138-averages-1-58-million-largest-average-audience-in-bellator-history/

[Jasen777]

The takedown though? James Toney might have countered that. But sometimes this is what low level mma looks like. I still don't think it was a work.

That takedown defense by Kimo was horrific and I'm sure it has wrestling coaches around the world having nightmares. But it looked like what a wrestler grabbing a single against a guy with no grappling training looks like. No I would have expected Kimo to have some sort of TD by now, but I guess not (he didn't come in fit either).

I agree there is no reason for Bellator to put the fix in when there's little benefit, huge risk, and a high chance of it coming out eventually. Shamrock couldn't get the joke but it's not unusual to see fighters in their prime with BJJ black belts not finish chokes from back control, just not getting the exact technique, or whatever (though I grant normally you can see a defense that is making it harder). As for Seth Petruzelli being there, why not? There was a good chance of Kimo winning, and that's another fight they could make. IT also could have been Seth Petruzelli trying to get that fight made for himself, which would have to be a nice payday for him. And wasn't he helping Shamrock train?

[REDDzone]

Yea he's on Shamrock's team I think.

BTW, I really do despise both Petruzelli and Tom Lawlor. Just annoying. Plus I think its bullying to try to pick a fight with a guy you know you can beat and you already have beaten.

[cowboyronnie]

BTW, I really do despise both Petruzelli and Tom Lawlor. Just annoying. Plus I think its bullying to try to pick a fight with a guy you know you can beat and you already have beaten.

I really like Seth. I'm amazed chilled dudes can also be such fearless hard asses. I love it. I like Tom's punching.

In no way is it bullying. Tha **** bro?

[REDDzone]

BTW, I really do despise both Petruzelli and Tom Lawlor. Just annoying. Plus I think its bullying to try to pick a fight with a guy you know you can beat and you already have beaten.

I really like Seth. I'm amazed chilled dudes can also be such fearless hard asses. I love it. I like Tom's punching.

In no way is it bullying. Tha **** bro?

If Seth Petruzelli fought Kimbo three times in a row, it would be the second, third, fourth biggest fight of his life respectively. I realize he's sick of getting finished by good fighters, but to pick on old fat Kimbo, really? If you KO him with ease when he's in his mid 30s, of course you are going to KO him with ease when he's in his 40s and fat. What does it even prove? It would be like Conor calling out Siver again.

Its like how every noncontender HW in the world is calling out Mir and Noguiera all the sudden, like beating those guys at this point means anything. Looking at you Shawn Jordan and Todd Duffee.

Yea, I realize this won't be a popular opinion. I'm cool with that.

[Cammo101]

I don't buy this rhetoric at all that there is no reason to fix the fight because Kimbo is old. Kimbo is, as this card showed, the only decent draw in Bellator. And he's one of their worst fighters. For a company not making money, that is a recipe for why to fix a fight.

I can definitely buy a scenario where Coker is not in on it, or is "hands off" for exactly the reason Jimmy Smith says, but that doesn't mean someone else who cares more about money than their ability to still promote fights in fight years didn't do it with no knowledge from Coker or from him looking the other way.

And even if this fight wasn't fixed, Bellator put a product in the cage so bad that their announcer had to answer to whether it was fixed. This is the disaster you court when you stoop this low.

[REDDzone]

I just try to look at the simplest explanation for things. What is more likely? That there is basically a conspiracy to fix a fight between all these people that would put the entire promotion at risk and would just be illegal in general, not to mention keeping everyone quiet before and after the fact for a limited payoff. Or that a 51 year old shot fighter who hasn't finished a RNC in over 20 years wasn't able to finish an RNC?

[Cammo101]

I just try to look at the simplest explanation for things. What is more likely? That there is basically a conspiracy to fix a fight between all these people that would put the entire promotion at risk and would just be illegal in general, not to mention keeping everyone quiet before and after the fact for a limited payoff. Or that a 51 year old shot fighter who hasn't finished a RNC in over 20 years wasn't able to finish an RNC?

What is more likely, a fixed fight where the loser has been shot for years and the winner is the biggest draw in the org, or that a lifetime MMA legend can't choke out a random guy doing nothing to stop them?

I've watched random drunk people RNC people who were actually trying to stop them, but a submission specialist you say was living at the gym never learned to do a rear naked choke? That doesn't feel like the most likely scenario to me.

[Jasen777]

Kimbo is, as this card showed, the only decent draw in Bellator.

Tito vs. Bonnar drew well. It's not impossible for them to put together shows like that without Kimbo. Just wait for Randy Couture vs. Frank Shamrock.

On a related note: did that fight actually help Kimo's drawing power, or might it have diminished it? We haven't seen him for a while so now the mystery is gone, and even though he won, he looked terrible.

[REDDzone]

What is more likely, a fixed fight where the loser has been shot for years and the winner is the biggest draw in the org,

Given this, why the hell would they even need to fix the fight? Like you said, Shamrock has been shot for years.

or that a lifetime MMA legend can't choke out a random guy doing nothing to stop them?

You've already had it explained to you in this very thread by multiple people where Shamrock was lacking technically to finish the choke and what Kimbo was doing technically to prevent him from finishing the choke. So for you to sit there and say that Kimbo did nothing at all to stop it is just dishonest and not interesting.

I've watched random drunk people RNC people who were actually trying to stop them, but a submission specialist you say was living at the gym never learned to do a rear naked choke? That doesn't feel like the most likely scenario to me.

Again, nothing but dishonesty. Not being able to finish a RNC is NOT the same as not knowing how to do one.

BJ Penn had Jon Fitch's back and couldn't finish the RNC, therefore BJ Penn never learned how to do an RNC.

Honestly, your arguments are pretty terrible here. Its like in the previous post when you called Kimbo the only draw in the org. That clearly isn't true when Ortiz/Bonnar did very good ratings. Why the dishonesty? You aren't arguing with casual fans who don't know any better here.

[Cammo101]

Tito still has a little juice left, but that card he and Bonnar fought on was absolutely stacked and was much more than just Tito selling that card...and it was still outdrawn by Kimbo.

Shamrock has been shot for years, but that doesn't mean Kimbo can beat him. There are plenty of shot fighters that would still run through Kimbo with ease.

Did you just compare taking Jon Fitch's back to Kimbo? Jon Fitch who was near impossible to submit? And my arguments are terrible? Someone not being able to finish a game opponent is to be expected, a submission specialist with 20 years of training not being able to submit a novice grappler doing very little to defend when he has their back and is under their chin is just plain fishy.

And having their supposedly retired, obvious next opponent cage side talking trash to him right afterward is even fishier.

[REDDzone]

Someone not being able to finish a game opponent is to be expected, a submission specialist with 20 years of training not being able to submit a novice grappler doing very little to defend when he has their back and is under their chin is just plain fishy.

This isn't what you said though. The above is much more reasonable and I wouldn't have attacked that argument. You said Shamrock not finishing the RNC meant that he had "never learned to do a rear naked choke" which is just ludicrous and dishonest.

BTW you are really stretching this "submission specialist" stuff. Yea he submitted dudes back in the wild west days when you couldn't find even purple belts outside of Brazil or Carlifornia, but the dude is no Jacare, especially not the roided out 50+ year old we saw Friday night. He has always been technically deficient. Always.

[REDDzone]

It'll be interesting to see if bellator rides any momentum into their show this coming week.

My guess is no.

[SDM]

Viacom's going to get involved with worked MMA? I don't know about that. I don't think they have any tiny Japanese dudes with multi-colour back pieces on payroll.

Clearly if this was a work, it didn't come down from execs at Viacom. I'm guessing most suits at Viacom don't even know what Bellator is.

They know what Bellator is because it's not cheap to put on that show. Someone is signing those checks and even the most junior accountant in any soulless monstrosity knows how much money their properties make or lose. They have thousands of people on staff... there are fanboys in all levels of the company who keep up on the product and the inner-workings. There's no way there can't be.

I mean, two things right here that point against it being a fix.

1. What does Bellator have to gain from this? A second fight from Kimbo? The fight happening was more important to Bellator than the victor. Why would Bellator give Kimbo leverage in the public eye if their intention is to sign him for another fight? Isn't there a ratings point, where, win or lose, they'd be interested in Kimbo again regardless? Everything I know about business says yes, Kimbo would fight again even if Ken slapped on that choke, judging by the ratings. We're on Fast and Furious 7 now, yes?

2. If you're going to fix a Ken Shamrock fight, why would you plan it out so even folks that are sceptical of works can think, "huh, well that looks fishy" Why not a 75% sparring session ensuring Kimbo gets the final blow?

3. Maybe the work involved both guys looking as if they could finish fights? But that harkens back to #1, why?

[SDM]

BTW you are really stretching this "submission specialist" stuff. Yea he submitted dudes back in the wild west days when you couldn't find even purple belts outside of Brazil or Carlifornia, but the dude is no Jacare, especially not the roided out 50+ year old we saw Friday night. He has always been technically deficient. Always.

Definitely yes on this, in the old UFCs I've been watching, I would say Frye's grappling improved more on a fight to fight basis than Shamrock's. The gap back then between Shamrock/Frye and Royce was as massive as the gap between Shamrock/Frye and the rest of the cards.

[SDM]

BTW, I really do despise both Petruzelli and Tom Lawlor. Just annoying. Plus I think its bullying to try to pick a fight with a guy you know you can beat and you already have beaten.

I really like Seth. I'm amazed chilled dudes can also be such fearless hard asses. I love it. I like Tom's punching.

In no way is it bullying. Tha **** bro?

If Seth Petruzelli fought Kimbo three times in a row, it would be the second, third, fourth biggest fight of his life respectively. I realize he's sick of getting finished by good fighters, but to pick on old fat Kimbo, really? If you KO him with ease when he's in his mid 30s, of course you are going to KO him with ease when he's in his 40s and fat. What does it even prove? It would be like Conor calling out Siver again.

Its like how every noncontender HW in the world is calling out Mir and Noguiera all the sudden, like beating those guys at this point means anything. Looking at you Shawn Jordan and Todd Duffee.

Yea, I realize this won't be a popular opinion. I'm cool with that.

You're never going to run Bellator with that attitude, mister.

[REDDzone]

You're never going to run Bellator with that attitude, mister.

Considering Coker's courtside seats at the Warriors game this past week, that actually kind of sucks.

[Cammo101]

Someone not being able to finish a game opponent is to be expected, a submission specialist with 20 years of training not being able to submit a novice grappler doing very little to defend when he has their back and is under their chin is just plain fishy.

This isn't what you said though. The above is much more reasonable and I wouldn't have attacked that argument. You said Shamrock not finishing the RNC meant that he had "never learned to do a rear naked choke" which is just ludicrous and dishonest.

I said that in regards to the fact that Kimbo is an obvious white belt. I clearly don't think Shamrock is some novice as it pertains to submissions. It's been one of the main reasons I think the fight was a work.