2015 Draft Thread - Part 1

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

That's actually a valid question. His standing reach was 9'1 - which is better than Greg Monroe and Anthony Davis (I stopped looking when I saw Davis at 9'), so he's long enough. And at 253 lbs, he's heavy and strong enough. He's not going to score a lot inside, but he can certainly out-quick most centers. I have a hard time picturing him at center, but maybe that's from ingrained thinking that a 6'8 guy can't play center.

Similar prospects IMO.

I forgot the rule of thumb - Don't drink coffee when reading a fishercob post.

Sounds looney, but you can also envision an NBA where a player like Kevon Looney can play small ball C.

A few pages up I posted a YouTube video of Looney playing C defensively vs Diamond Stone.

I foresee guys like Gooden playing a lot more C in the analytics driven NBA.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Man, the "scout" take in SI on Tyus Jones sounds like kiss of death stuff:

He’s not very big, but he’s a winner. You don’t think he’s a great shooter, but when the game is on the line, the guy never misses.

Or it's the one time that kind of talk is true, so it proves the rule - assuming there's an exception to every rule.

He's a player you can let have the ball at end o quarter/half/game situations, and he'll score at an even higher rate than John Wall.

You could trade Wall for Cousins straight up, draft Tyus Jones, sign Greveis Vasquez and still get Kevin Durant to come--and more cap room to sign KD.

Hell, Sacramento would take Wall and probably swap picks. You could get Mudiay and Cousins for Wall.

If Wall keeps running with the same dudes who got him kicked off the plane, he could be in trouble worse than Cousins. Washington would wish they had a Jones or Mudiay and Cousins.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

No. I wouldn't trade Wall for Cousins as I just described.

Just threw it up against the wall to see if anything stuck.

[gambitx777]

My main point is we will get a god player in Grant, its not like its a blatantly bad pick like EG has made before. I'll take the boring 23 year old safe pick over taking some huge upside euro kid that will never be **** or some highly athletic super up side guy like Kelly obure or some one like that who will probably never amount to anything. My big point is, he a good player, be happy if we get a good player. Every one knows I want to take a big, we need to take a big and we should take a big. but im going to look on the bright side if we take grant! Because it can always be worse.

[80sballboy]

One thing that concerns teams about Looney is this hip injury that Chad Ford brought up today in the NBA Draft Media Call. Teams are worried that he might have to sit out the year due to surgery.

http://espnmediazone.com/us/press-releases/2015/06/transcript-espn-2015-nba-draft-media-call-with-chad-ford/

[Wizardspride]

Man, the "scout" take in SI on Tyus Jones sounds like kiss of death stuff:

Or it's the one time that kind of talk is true, so it proves the rule - assuming there's an exception to every rule.

He's a player you can let have the ball at end o quarter/half/game situations, and he'll score at an even higher rate than John Wall.

You could trade Wall for Cousins straight up, draft Tyus Jones, sign Greveis Vasquez and still get Kevin Durant to come.

Hell, Sacramento would take Wall and probably swap picks. You could get Mudiay and Cousins for Wall.

If Wall keeps running with the same dudes who got him kicked off the plane, he could be in trouble worse than Cousins. Washington would wish they had a Jones or Mudiay and Cousins.

CCJ, is this what you'd do or are you just throwing out hypotheticals?

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

CCJ, is this what you'd do or are you just throwing out hypotheticals?

You know me well, WP.

No. I wouldn't trade Wall for Cousins as I just described.

Just threw it up against the wall to see if anything stuck.

Never be afraid to brainstorm. Just be sure to run every thought across other people who think differently. Never make a purely emotional, reactive move, either.

That idea is something I'm CURRENTLY about 39 percent in favor of but 61 percent against.

Wall balled his ass off in the playoffs before he broke his arm. He's serious on the court and a true competitor. He CURRENTLY has a very favorable reputation.

But I'm looking forward. ..

[The Consiglieri]

Man, the "scout" take in SI on Tyus Jones sounds like kiss of death stuff:

He’s not very big, but he’s a winner. You don’t think he’s a great shooter, but when the game is on the line, the guy never misses.

Contrast that to the ranking stat geeks at 538 came up with on Jones.

I saw what Duke did after kicking Sulaimon off the team. Won with Jones being a freshman baller and shot caller.

Won in HS and told Coach K they were going to win we he got there.

THAT SAID...I prefer former Texas Gatorade player of the year, Joe Young in round two over Jones. He also won multiple HS state championship games, like Tyus Jones. Young also has the Steph Curry/Andrew Wiggins/Klay Thompson NBA daddy good gene thing. I remember Michael Young of Houston Cougar Phi Slamma Jamma.

CCJ,

I'd take a metric geeks interpretation of Jones every day of the week and twice on sunday over a scouts take that, "he's a winner".

Look at the Point Guards who lead their teams to a title the past 20 years. All of them are winners. How many actually could cut it in the NBA? Very, very few.

The jump from college to the pro's is murderous for a point guard, just ask Tyus Edney, Bobby Hurley (granted the car accident wrecked his career), Wayne Turner, Khalid El-Amin, Mateen Cleaves, Jason Williams (similar issue to Hurley, except a motorcycle), Steve Blake, Marcus Williams, Taurean Green, you get the picture. Winning isn't a quantifiable personally attributable statistic, particularly for college players trying to make the massive jump to the pro's. I hate that argument. Tell me about what skills he has that we can actually measure, and yeah, if his mental make up is through the roof, then say that, it does matter, but there are only a handful of exceptions of players who make it despite not having the measurables, and all of the players that do, still have the physical ability to make the jump, if they didn't, it wouldn't have mattered how much of a winner he was. Without having that physical ability, attitude means nothing, but if all you need to improve is in certain areas where "work" matters, then hell yeah, the mental make up comes into play, I think that's the crux. If the players issues reside in area's where work can actually make a difference, then that Tyus Jones mental make up comes into play, but if it doesn't, if its pure physical ability, that either is, or isn't there, than that winning mental make up doesn't mean squat.

That's why I hate that scouting line of thinking. Tell me what he can do, then tell me about how he approaches the game in terms of mental approach, but if all you're selling me on is that he started on a team that won the national title and contributed? I really could care less, the line of players that started on NCAA champs that couldn't cut it in the NBA is about 1000x longer than then the line of players that could cut it.

[stevemcqueen1]

Trading Wall for Cousins would, in one move, plunge the franchise back into the dregs of the league.

[The Consiglieri]

Man, the "scout" take in SI on Tyus Jones sounds like kiss of death stuff:

Or it's the one time that kind of talk is true, so it proves the rule - assuming there's an exception to every rule.

He's a player you can let have the ball at end o quarter/half/game situations, and he'll score at an even higher rate than John Wall.

You could trade Wall for Cousins straight up, draft Tyus Jones, sign Greveis Vasquez and still get Kevin Durant to come--and more cap room to sign KD.

Hell, Sacramento would take Wall and probably swap picks. You could get Mudiay and Cousins for Wall.

If Wall keeps running with the same dudes who got him kicked off the plane, he could be in trouble worse than Cousins. Washington would wish they had a Jones or Mudiay and Cousins.

Cousins mental make up is absolute horse ------. Word out of sac is that he's a coach killer, a guy that will deliberately tank it out of a fit of pique if he's unhappy with a coaching decision in game, or a management decision. He's poison.

I understand you love him as a prospect, just as I did, the guy is a monster. But he's a loser as a person, just absolute poison. You can't have him on your roster unless you have the room totally locked down, and even then he's a dumpster fire waiting to happen (and it's worth mentioning that an outsider walked right into the Wizards locker room and took the leadership role immediately in Pierce, that should concern people, Pierce is a natural leader, but regardless, there should have been at least a guy who could shift to his #1 immediately from his leadership position and I never got the sense there was one, you can't put Cousins on a team that lacks that "guy").

He's awful, CCJ, and you just can't have him. Whatever stupidity Wall engaged on in a plane, it's the first reported instance of him being a pain in five years, and it was nowhere near the basketball court or locker room. Cousins has had about 10-15 incidents just off the top of my head, on the court, or in the locker room.

The Lakers are grand mal idiots for trying to trade for him, just idiots, but at least they already have an alpha dog in place, even if he's on one leg, and one foot away from the retirement home.

[The Consiglieri]

My main point is we will get a god player in Grant, its not like its a blatantly bad pick like EG has made before. I'll take the boring 23 year old safe pick over taking some huge upside euro kid that will never be **** or some highly athletic super up side guy like Kelly obure or some one like that who will probably never amount to anything. My big point is, he a good player, be happy if we get a good player. Every one knows I want to take a big, we need to take a big and we should take a big. but im going to look on the bright side if we take grant! Because it can always be worse.

Grant would be my backup plan, I'd be looking at a trade up for Lyles, or Turner or Payne, or hoping that one of Portis, Looney,Cauley-Stein, Kaminsky, Hunter and Oubre make it to me, and if none of them fall into our lap, then, and only then, do I take Grant (actually I might consider Grant over Oubre, because he makes me nervous).

What I would be trying to do is offer the 19, the 2016 #1, and our #2 (and possibly a player, though I cant think of anyone anyone would want) to try to move inside the top 12-13, we can get a player that helps us look mighty attractive to FA's next offseason if we can get inside there.

My prediction is we stay at slot pick Hunter, Grant, or Looney, and I'm hoping for Looney. With our second rounder, i predict we'll sell it, or select a draft and stash Euro (seems to be what we always do, with the exception of Rice).

[DCZards]

Trading Wall for Cousins would, in one move, plunge the franchise back into the dregs of the league.

You don't trade a bonafide leader like Wall who just led your franchise to back-to-back playoff appearances for a selfish, immature player like Cousins. The fact that Sac is actively shopping maybe the best young center in the game speaks volumes about what the coaches--and probably most of his teammates--feel about Cousins as a person. No thanks.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Man, the "scout" take in SI on Tyus Jones sounds like kiss of death stuff:

Contrast that to the ranking stat geeks at 538 came up with on Jones.

I saw what Duke did after kicking Sulaimon off the team. Won with Jones being a freshman baller and shot caller.

Won in HS and told Coach K they were going to win we he got there.

THAT SAID...I prefer former Texas Gatorade player of the year, Joe Young in round two over Jones. He also won multiple HS state championship games, like Tyus Jones. Young also has the Steph Curry/Andrew Wiggins/Klay Thompson NBA daddy good gene thing. I remember Michael Young of Houston Cougar Phi Slamma Jamma.

CCJ,

I'd take a metric geeks interpretation of Jones every day of the week and twice on sunday over a scouts take that, "he's a winner".

Look at the Point Guards who lead their teams to a title the past 20 years. All of them are winners. How many actually could cut it in the NBA? Very, very few.

The jump from college to the pro's is murderous for a point guard, just ask Tyus Edney, Bobby Hurley (granted the car accident wrecked his career), Wayne Turner, Khalid El-Amin, Mateen Cleaves, Jason Williams (similar issue to Hurley, except a motorcycle), Steve Blake, Marcus Williams, Taurean Green, you get the picture. Winning isn't a quantifiable personally attributable statistic, particularly for college players trying to make the massive jump to the pro's. I hate that argument. Tell me about what skills he has that we can actually measure, and yeah, if his mental make up is through the roof, then say that, it does matter, but there are only a handful of exceptions of players who make it despite not having the measurables, and all of the players that do, still have the physical ability to make the jump, if they didn't, it wouldn't have mattered how much of a winner he was. Without having that physical ability, attitude means nothing, but if all you need to improve is in certain areas where "work" matters, then hell yeah, the mental make up comes into play, I think that's the crux. If the players issues reside in area's where work can actually make a difference, then that Tyus Jones mental make up comes into play, but if it doesn't, if its pure physical ability, that either is, or isn't there, than that winning mental make up doesn't mean squat.

That's why I hate that scouting line of thinking. Tell me what he can do, then tell me about how he approaches the game in terms of mental approach, but if all you're selling me on is that he started on a team that won the national title and contributed? I really could care less, the line of players that started on NCAA champs that couldn't cut it in the NBA is about 1000x longer than then the line of players that could cut it.

Wow, this is one outstanding, well-thought response, Consiglieri!

(I just watched " The Godfather" again, yesterday on AMC. Robert Duvall plays the consiglieri, Tom Hayden. Dude is IMO the smartest guy in the room in every scene! )

I cannot argue against attitude and "winning" not mattering at all if the physical attributes and measurable skills are not there. Consiglieri, that's a wonderful list of players who "crashed and burned" career-wise, and a couple did so pretty much, literally.

My argument for Tyus Jones would list the names Mario Chalmers, Ty Lawson, Kyle Lowry, Derrick Fisher and Juan Dixon. I would include Steve Blake as a player who is rarely a net negative as a backup. Tyus Jones, drafted at 19, would be expected to perform well as a backup. Jones has comparable size and athleticism to the players I mentioned. His skill? Jones is able to make terrific passes with either hand at full speed while in transition. He has good assists to turnover ratio and a history of being a great leader. But honestly, I would rather respect your post by saying that measurables are not his strength and he could fail, like those players you mentioned.

I would trust and PRAY that like Chalmers and a few others (Rip Hamilton comes to mind) Tyus Jones ends up being a guy who gets both NCAA and NBA rings. I wouldn't care if he's merely a Derrick Fisher or Robert Horry complimentary player. Tyus Jones was pretty much that at Duke!!!

Jeff Van Gundy says about JR Smith, "Dumb gets you beat". What I think is the converse is true as well, Smart wins IMO. Smart finds a way.

I would rather have a (smart) guy like Kelly Olynyk any day of the week over a more athletic player who never seems to be able to help teams for whatever reasons.

[FAH1223]

One thing that concerns teams about Looney is this hip injury that Chad Ford brought up today in the NBA Draft Media Call. Teams are worried that he might have to sit out the year due to surgery.

http://espnmediazone.com/us/press-releases/2015/06/transcript-espn-2015-nba-draft-media-call-with-chad-ford/

Well, I'd still take him.

[The Consiglieri]

I like Jones, enjoyed watching him play, and he's the kind of guy I think might slip through a la Dat Nguyen, with that work hard, mental make up, physical skills just good enough, mental make up through the roof, but I am not so confident that I would take him over guys I think flat out can make the jump and contribute for sure (Grant, Hunter), or have the chance to be this draft's "why the hell did he get picked that low again" guys like Schroeder, and particularly Giannis, and Gobert, that looked like steals to a lot of us two years ago, when they were still available after the first dozen picks had come and gone. Those guys for me are Lyles, Looney, Turner, Oubre (way too low of a floor for me though), Portis, Alexander, and a guy like Wood who looks like a steal in round 2 if his mental make up isn't six feet under the local graveyard at this point.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Or it's the one time that kind of talk is true, so it proves the rule - assuming there's an exception to every rule.

He's a player you can let have the ball at end o quarter/half/game situations, and he'll score at an even higher rate than John Wall.

You could trade Wall for Cousins straight up, draft Tyus Jones, sign Greveis Vasquez and still get Kevin Durant to come--and more cap room to sign KD.

Hell, Sacramento would take Wall and probably swap picks. You could get Mudiay and Cousins for Wall.

If Wall keeps running with the same dudes who got him kicked off the plane, he could be in trouble worse than Cousins. Washington would wish they had a Jones or Mudiay and Cousins.

Cousins mental make up is absolute horse ------. Word out of sac is that he's a coach killer, a guy that will deliberately tank it out of a fit of pique if he's unhappy with a coaching decision in game, or a management decision. He's poison.

I understand you love him as a prospect, just as I did, the guy is a monster. But he's a loser as a person, just absolute poison. You can't have him on your roster unless you have the room totally locked down, and even then he's a dumpster fire waiting to happen (and it's worth mentioning that an outsider walked right into the Wizards locker room and took the leadership role immediately in Pierce, that should concern people, Pierce is a natural leader, but regardless, there should have been at least a guy who could shift to his #1 immediately from his leadership position and I never got the sense there was one, you can't put Cousins on a team that lacks that "guy").

He's awful, CCJ, and you just can't have him. Whatever stupidity Wall engaged on in a plane, it's the first reported instance of him being a pain in five years, and it was nowhere near the basketball court or locker room. Cousins has had about 10-15 incidents just off the top of my head, on the court, or in the locker room.

The Lakers are grand mal idiots for trying to trade for him, just idiots, but at least they already have an alpha dog in place, even if he's on one leg, and one foot away from the retirement home.

2nd team all NBA.

Instead of words, check out his NBA top tens in categories like PER, real plus minus, rebounding, free throws attempts. All star and Team USA player.

You're simply not liking Cousins. I'm a fan, as are Divac, Mike Malone, the Kings owner, Pete Carrill, and John Calipari.

When the Lakers get a big man, how does it usually end up?

Wilt, Kareem, Shaq? Rings. Pau and Bynum? Rings. If they get Cousins you'll be watching him in the playoffs. Way better player than Josh Smith, who bested Blake Griffin and the Clippers in the playoffs.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Trading Wall for Cousins would, in one move, plunge the franchise back into the dregs of the league.

You don't trade a bonafide leader like Wall who just led your franchise to back-to-back playoff appearances for a selfish, immature player like Cousins. The fact that Sac is actively shopping maybe the best young center in the game speaks volumes about what the coaches--and probably most of his teammates--feel about Cousins as a person. No thanks.

How could George Karl say one thing in April and another thing yesterday? Cousins has lost a lot of games in 5 years as a King. He has put time in and is a fan favorite. Check out Kings websites. What a two-faced Karl says should be scrutinized as well as Cousins. You mention his teammates. Which is any good?

You might end up with Mudiay and Cousins, because you could easily swap picks to make it close to fair.

I posted the idea, said not now, and even posted the rest of the reasons why you brainstorm ideas but do not act....

Plunge franchise back and selective comprehension readers have at it...

[The Consiglieri]

CCJ, I love his game, I thought he and Favors were every bit as worthy a pick in '10 as Wall, i actually wondered if Favors would be the best (and I'm not too proud to admit that I was/am stunned at how bad Turner has been, great college player and great story after all of his travails, to fail at the next level was a shock to me). Love his game.

But he as a guy is absolute poison to a locker room. The only guy who wants him in Sac is the owner. Way too many insiders co-signing on the stories of him deliberately jaking it in games when he doesn't like something going on, deliberately quitting on possessions out of pique, dust ups in the locker room, disrespecting coaches, the guy is awful.

As a technical player, when he feels like playing he's one of the two most dominant big men in the league by a country mile, but that doesn't mean anything if he's poison in the room and can't get along with anyone. He's the Jeff George of Centers.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

The draft is 24 hours away. Phuck getting drawn in to a BS discussion about Wall and Cousins.

There are far more pleasant scenarios to entertain.

[fishercob]

The draft is 24 hours away. Phuck getting drawn in to a BS discussion about Wall and Cousins.

There are far more pleasant scenarios to entertain.

I miss you already!