The case for LeBron 2009 as the GOAT peak

[Quotatious]

Peak Bron was '13, so '09 couldn't be GOAT.

As has been stated, people rely on stats too much. Versatility matters, and 13 >>> 09. Same with the mental aspect. The context in CLE was ideal for that version of Bron to put up eye popping numbers, and because of that people somehow think that was his peak.

The thing is, LeBron not only had incredible numbers in 2009, but his impact on winning may've also been higher than it was in any other season. Both his offensive and defensive impact was off the charts in '09. He also led the Cavs to 66 wins in 2009, which is exactly the same as he did in 2013 - the difference is, in 2013 his top 2 teammates were Dwyane Wade and Chris Bosh, in 2009 it was Mo Williams and old Zydrunas Ilgauskas (or Anderson Varejao, I'm not sure who his second best teammate was). Even then, the 2009 Cavs had clearly higher SRS. Quite honestly, the 2009 Cavs may've overachieved more than any other team in NBA history, all due to LeBron.

[LoyalKing]

To me peak Bron was 12-13. He was mentally stronger, smarter and played better teamball.

09 Lebron was an outlier. That's the season he put the best numbers, but that wasn't his peak and that wasn't his best season at all.

Great individual performance against weak competition in the playoffs (Orlando not included) that lead the Cavs nowhere

[BasketballFan7]

Peak Bron was '13, so '09 couldn't be GOAT.

As has been stated, people rely on stats too much. Versatility matters, and 13 >>> 09. Same with the mental aspect. The context in CLE was ideal for that version of Bron to put up eye popping numbers, and because of that people somehow think that was his peak.

The thing is, LeBron not only had incredible numbers in 2009, but his impact on winning may've also been higher than it was in any other season. Both his offensive and defensive impact was off the charts in '09. He also led the Cavs to 66 wins in 2009, which is exactly the same as he did in 2013 - the difference is, in 2013 his top 2 teammates were Dwyane Wade and Chris Bosh, in 2009 it was Mo Williams and old Zydrunas Ilgauskas (or Anderson Varejao, I'm not sure who his second best teammate was). Even then, the 2009 Cavs had clearly higher SRS. Quite honestly, the 2009 Cavs may've overachieved more than any other team in NBA history, all due to LeBron.

I'm aware of those numbers. Like I said, it was an ideal situation for that.

Of course he had a huge impact on winning. He had the ball all of the time and was surrounded by shooters and defenders. Without an elite slasher / creator, that team is likely terrible. But Brons skill set at the time was ideal for that circumstance.

However, 2013 bron was a superior player in a different context. Superior defense, versatility offensively, adaptability, understanding of the game, maturity, etc.

[Mutnt]

How does winning 66 out of 82 games by himself and then dominating the playoffs on a ridiculous level qualify as an 'outlier'? lol. And it's not like he followed that season by winning another 61 out of 82 games in similarly dominating fashion. I guess the dude just fluked his way to 127 wins in 164 games playing with casts and coaching that had no business being a part of 60-win teams.

[Quotatious]

I'm aware of those numbers. Like I said, it was an ideal situation for that.

Of course he had a huge impact on winning. He had the ball all of the time and was surrounded by shooters and defenders. Without an elite slasher / creator, that team is likely terrible. But Brons skill set at the time was ideal for that circumstance.

However, 2013 bron was a superior player in a different context. Superior defense, versatility offensively, adaptability, understanding of the game, maturity, etc.

I don't think '13 LeBron was better than '09 as a defender. 2009 LeBron anchored the 3rd best defense in the league (yes, he anchored it, his defensive impact that year is unquestioned, there are numbers to prove it). He had a somewhat subpar series against Orlando in terms of defense, but considering how much he had to do on offense, it's not a big problem.

Offensive versatility, maturity, adaptability etc. are all fair points, but on the other hand, 2009 LeBron was clearly more explosive off the dribble, had higher motor, better stamina, and I doubt the 2013 version would've been able to carry the '09 Cavs like '09 LBJ did.

I think that 2009, 2012 and 2013 all have a good case for LeBron's peak. I prefer '09, but I can see a good case for the other two, as well.

As far as 2009 LeBron putting up incredible numbers against weak competition in the first two rounds - 2013 LeBron did exactly the same, the only difference is that 2009 LBJ did it better. His 2009 playoff run was better from an individual standpoint than his 2013 run. There's a big difference in terms of his supporting cast - Wade/Bosh were so much better than Williams/Ilgauskas (or Varejao), it's not a surprise the '13 Heat won a title, and '09 Cavs did not. IMO 2013 Heat had better role players, more experience and better coach, too. Anyway, let's not act like Miami was that dominant in the final two rounds - they were one game away from elimination against both the Pacers and Spurs.

Also, as far as versatility - if you think that the more versatile player is automatically the better player - do you think that Hakeem is better than Shaq? I'm asking just to check if you're consistent with that approach.

[BirdsEye]

How does winning 66 out of 82 games by himself and then dominating the playoffs on a ridiculous level qualify as an 'outlier'? lol. And it's not like he followed that season by winning another 61 out of 82 games in similarly dominating fashion. I guess the dude just fluked his way to 127 wins in 164 games playing with casts and coaching that had no business being a part of 60-win teams.

Unbelievable.

If J.R Smith goes 7-7, Lebron is the best play maker in the world.

If J.R. Smith goes 0-7, he is a chucking fool with no skill.

Lebron is the most excused and exalted player of all time.

[ShotCreator]

GOAT peaks win NBA titles.

Wilt built an entire GOAT-level resume without doing that nearly as many times as other consensus GOAT-level(or at least close)players.


At a certain point how well a man plays the game has to be looked at above all else. And LeBron likely played above the level of any player in NBA history in that season.

[PaulieWal]

Kobe was better in 2009, even if some stats that people who use them can't even calculate say otherwise. The Cavs choked against the Magic and that's the bottom line.

Kobe was mentally head and shoulders above Lebron and understood what it took to win. The stats were meaningless.

Come on, CalathesD. Even you gotta admit LeBron was better than Kobe in 09. Kobe had a much better team and Kobe was good too that year but LeBron was clearly better.

[LA Bird]

Kobe was better in 2009, even if some stats that people who use them can't even calculate say otherwise. The Cavs choked against the Magic and that's the bottom line.

Kobe was mentally head and shoulders above Lebron and understood what it took to win. The stats were meaningless.

2009 Playoffs vs Orlando Clutch Stats
Lebron: 29 points on 71.1% TS
Gasol: 21 points on 94.8% TS
Kobe: 20 points on 42.5% TS
Lakers on shots unassisted by Kobe: 27 points on 64.8% TS
Cavs on shots unassisted by Lebron: 14 points on 43.2% TS

I'll take the player who ACTUALLY did what it takes to win, even if the rest of his team sucked, rather than the player with the better "mental understanding" who ended up shooting a spectacular 42.5% TS during clutch time.

[Jim Naismith]

Kobe was better in 2009, even if some stats that people who use them can't even calculate say otherwise. The Cavs choked against the Magic and that's the bottom line.

Kobe was mentally head and shoulders above Lebron and understood what it took to win. The stats were meaningless.

2009 Playoffs vs Orlando Clutch Stats
Lebron: 29 points on 71.1% TS
Gasol: 21 points on 94.8% TS
Kobe: 20 points on 42.5% TS
Lakers on shots unassisted by Kobe: 27 points on 64.8% TS
Cavs on shots unassisted by Lebron: 14 points on 43.2% TS

I'll take the player who ACTUALLY did what it takes to win, even if the rest of his team sucked, rather than the player with the better "mental understanding" who ended up shooting a spectacular 42.5% TS during clutch time.

After two games of the Orlando series, it was tied 1-1.

In the last 4 games of that series, LeBron shot 42.6% (25% from three) from the field

Contrast this with LeBron's 2009 regular season, where he shot 48.9% (34.4% from three). That's a major drop-off

[BirdsEye]

Kobe was better in 2009, even if some stats that people who use them can't even calculate say otherwise. The Cavs choked against the Magic and that's the bottom line.

Kobe was mentally head and shoulders above Lebron and understood what it took to win. The stats were meaningless.

2009 Playoffs vs Orlando Clutch Stats
Lebron: 29 points on 71.1% TS
Gasol: 21 points on 94.8% TS
Kobe: 20 points on 42.5% TS
Lakers on shots unassisted by Kobe: 27 points on 64.8% TS
Cavs on shots unassisted by Lebron: 14 points on 43.2% TS

I'll take the player who ACTUALLY did what it takes to win, even if the rest of his team sucked, rather than the player with the better "mental understanding" who ended up shooting a spectacular 42.5% TS during clutch time.

Series at no point was ever in doubt. Your fake "clutch" stats are meaningless.

[Mazter]

If we are discussing individual peak than 2009 LeBron is by far the best performance ever over the RS+PO. Top 5 regular season performance ever with the best post season performance ever displayed. It's not even close.

[ShotCreator]

Kobe was better in 2009, even if some stats that people who use them can't even calculate say otherwise. The Cavs choked against the Magic and that's the bottom line.

Kobe was mentally head and shoulders above Lebron and understood what it took to win. The stats were meaningless.

2009 Playoffs vs Orlando Clutch Stats
Lebron: 29 points on 71.1% TS
Gasol: 21 points on 94.8% TS
Kobe: 20 points on 42.5% TS
Lakers on shots unassisted by Kobe: 27 points on 64.8% TS
Cavs on shots unassisted by Lebron: 14 points on 43.2% TS

I'll take the player who ACTUALLY did what it takes to win, even if the rest of his team sucked, rather than the player with the better "mental understanding" who ended up shooting a spectacular 42.5% TS during clutch time.

After two games of the Orlando series, it was tied 1-1.

In the last 4 games of that series, LeBron shot 42.6% (25% from three) from the field

Contrast this with LeBron's 2009 regular season, where he shot 48.9% (34.4% from three). That's a major drop-off

LeBron's all-time level slashing ability got him to the line 9 times(18 FTA) a game in that 4 game stretch.

His TS% was .554. Not bad in any way. By the way, he averaged 36.8/10/8.8 in that stretch.

[ShotCreator]

Kobe was better in 2009, even if some stats that people who use them can't even calculate say otherwise. The Cavs choked against the Magic and that's the bottom line.

Kobe was mentally head and shoulders above Lebron and understood what it took to win. The stats were meaningless.

2009 Playoffs vs Orlando Clutch Stats
Lebron: 29 points on 71.1% TS
Gasol: 21 points on 94.8% TS
Kobe: 20 points on 42.5% TS
Lakers on shots unassisted by Kobe: 27 points on 64.8% TS
Cavs on shots unassisted by Lebron: 14 points on 43.2% TS

I'll take the player who ACTUALLY did what it takes to win, even if the rest of his team sucked, rather than the player with the better "mental understanding" who ended up shooting a spectacular 42.5% TS during clutch time.

Series at no point was ever in doubt. Your fake "clutch" stats are meaningless.

Are you serious? LeBron hit a 29 foot contested game winner in game 2 to prevent them from going back to Orlando down 2-0. That's significant. The chances of coming back from 0-2 after losing both home games are not good, at all.

[Jim Naismith]

After two games of the Orlando series, it was tied 1-1.

In the last 4 games of that series, LeBron shot 42.6% (25% from three) from the field

Contrast this with LeBron's 2009 regular season, where he shot 48.9% (34.4% from three). That's a major drop-off

LeBron's all-time level slashing ability got him to the line 9 times(18 FTA) a game in that 4 game stretch.

His TS% was .554. Not bad in any way. By the way, he averaged 36.8/10/8.8 in that stretch.

LeBron's TS% before that stretch was .650.

So for the final four games of a series where his overdog team was eliminated, LeBron shot 100 points under his playoff average.

I'm not sure if "clutch" is the word to use here.

[LA Bird]

After two games of the Orlando series, it was tied 1-1.

In the last 4 games of that series, LeBron shot 42.6% (25% from three) from the field

Contrast this with LeBron's 2009 regular season, where he shot 48.9% (34.4% from three). That's a major drop-off

After 1-1 start,
2009 Lebron averages 37-10-9 on 55.4% TS against -6.4 defense. Labelled a 'choker'.
1991 Jordan averages 29-6-11 on 54.5% TS against -2.9 defense. Regarded as GOAT peak.

Give me a single reason other than rings as to how 37-10-9 on 55.4% TS is somehow a disappointment.

[LA Bird]

Series at no point was ever in doubt. Your fake "clutch" stats are meaningless.

> Proclaims Kobe's superior mental clutch ability as to why he was better than Lebron in 2009
> Proven false by clutch stats from nba.com
> Has no comeback and proceeds to attack legitimacy of said stats despite providing nothing of substance himself
I am done with trolls like you.

[Jim Naismith]

After two games of the Orlando series, it was tied 1-1.

In the last 4 games of that series, LeBron shot 42.6% (25% from three) from the field

Contrast this with LeBron's 2009 regular season, where he shot 48.9% (34.4% from three). That's a major drop-off

After 1-1 start,
2009 Lebron averages 37-10-9 on 55.4% TS against -6.4 defense. Labelled a 'choker'.
1991 Jordan averages 29-6-11 on 54.5% TS against -2.9 defense. Regarded as GOAT peak.

Give me a single reason other than rings as to how 37-10-9 on 55.4% TS is somehow a disappointment.

In game 3 and 6 against underdog Orlando, LeBron was 1 of 8 and 2 of 8 from three.

The Cavs lost both games by double digits.

[Jetzger]

Series at no point was ever in doubt. Your fake "clutch" stats are meaningless.

> Proclaims Kobe's superior mental clutch ability as to why he was better than Lebron in 2009
> Proven false by clutch stats from nba.com
> Has no comeback and proceeds to attack legitimacy of said stats despite providing nothing of substance himself
I am done with trolls like you.

He's trolled his way through like 10 accounts on 2 different forums by now

I'll give it to him, he's committed.

[ThaRegul8r]

GOAT peaks win NBA titles.

Wilt built an entire GOAT-level resume without doing that nearly as many times as other consensus GOAT-level(or at least close)players.

Considering that 1967 is considered a GOAT-level peak, Wilt is not a good counter-example to this particular statement (which is talking solely about peaks, not careers).