2015 Draft Thread - Part 1

[Ruzious]

.
Welcome your opinons: Is it wrong of me to revel in schadenfreude associated wit the current state of the Knicks?

carmelo is just upset they are thinking past him like they are supposed to be. Kristsaps will be really good and he needs to get over it. I'd rather have Kristsaps than melo especially at his price

This will be interesting to watch play out. Melo is right. This is not a pick to support him being there. Not in the next two years.

Melo signed a Kobe contract. They can try to load up for a run with him or tank another year and gain another top asset.

NY can go either way. But to support that pick, they need to play him though the bad to develop him.

This could tip either way depending on who they can land in FA.

Question is - Who should they have picked? If he's going to criticize, what was a better alternative? I'm not sure there was one.

[hands11]

carmelo is just upset they are thinking past him like they are supposed to be. Kristsaps will be really good and he needs to get over it. I'd rather have Kristsaps than melo especially at his price

This will be interesting to watch play out. Melo is right. This is not a pick to support him being there. Not in the next two years.

Melo signed a Kobe contract. They can try to load up for a run with him or tank another year and gain another top asset.

NY can go either way. But to support that pick, they need to play him though the bad to develop him.

This could tip either way depending on who they can land in FA.

Question is - Who should they have picked? If he's going to criticize, what was a better alternative? I'm not sure there was one.

I imagine he would say.. 6,8, 9, 10

But maybe Willie Cauley-Stein C was who he wanted.

NY picked the best upside asset. But for that pick to be that, he needs minutes year one. 25 a game for good or so worse.

Melo's job is to do his job and to mentor him. Like D Robinson did for T Duncan. Like Jabber did for Magic. Like Pete Maravich, Tiny Archibald, Dave Cowens did for Bird. Like Caldwell Jones, George Gervin, Dave Corzine did for MJ

[Sluggerface]

I really don't see an issue with playing Otto at the 4. Realistically, how many players have post games that you have to really worry about? The traditional post game is all but dead in today's game. Obviously you're not gonna play Porter against someone like Zach Randolph, but guys like Paul Millsap who have really sub-par back to the basket play, like 90% of the bigs in the league, I just don't see the issue. Otto has the speed and length (not saying strength isn't important, but quickness if a far greater indicator of rebounding ability IMO) to compete with other 4's on the boards.

Hrm. I recall Millsap taking Porter to school on the block in the playofffs. Millsap isn't Kevin McHale, but he's more than serviceable in the post -- especially vs. players he outweighs. I do think Porter will do fine against stretch 4s and tweeners once he fills out, but I'll need to see more than what I saw last year to believe that he can check the Millsaps of the league right now.

Porter has played practically zero minutes at the four for his career. The only guy in that scenario checking millsap was pierce, and atlanta didn't really have a lot of success with post-ups. They just ran cuts all game long with Millsap/Carroll and Pierce wasn't quick enough to shut them off. It was a huge reason Atlanta had a lot of success in that series.

[keynote]

I really don't see an issue with playing Otto at the 4. Realistically, how many players have post games that you have to really worry about? The traditional post game is all but dead in today's game. Obviously you're not gonna play Porter against someone like Zach Randolph, but guys like Paul Millsap who have really sub-par back to the basket play, like 90% of the bigs in the league, I just don't see the issue. Otto has the speed and length (not saying strength isn't important, but quickness if a far greater indicator of rebounding ability IMO) to compete with other 4's on the boards.

Hrm. I recall Millsap taking Porter to school on the block in the playofffs. Millsap isn't Kevin McHale, but he's more than serviceable in the post -- especially vs. players he outweighs. I do think Porter will do fine against stretch 4s and tweeners once he fills out, but I'll need to see more than what I saw last year to believe that he can check the Millsaps of the league right now.

Porter has played practically zero minutes at the four for his career. The only guy in that scenario checking millsap was pierce, and atlanta didn't really have a lot of success with post-ups. They just ran cuts all game long with Millsap/Carroll and Pierce wasn't quick enough to shut them off. It was a huge reason Atlanta had a lot of success in that series.

Hmm. I checked the game highlight clips at NBA.com, and you folks are right. I could've sworn that I saw Porter matched up vs. Millsap for a *very* short stretch, with the result being 1-2 easy backdown layups for Millsap. But I didn't see any of that in the clips. Chalk it up to faulty memory, I guess.

I could've sworn that Porter *did* play a handful of minutes at the 4 last year; perhaps I'm wrong on that as well.

[Ruzious]

This will be interesting to watch play out. Melo is right. This is not a pick to support him being there. Not in the next two years.

Melo signed a Kobe contract. They can try to load up for a run with him or tank another year and gain another top asset.

NY can go either way. But to support that pick, they need to play him though the bad to develop him.

This could tip either way depending on who they can land in FA.

Question is - Who should they have picked? If he's going to criticize, what was a better alternative? I'm not sure there was one.

I imagine he would say.. 6,8, 9, 10

But maybe Willie Cauley-Stein C was who he wanted.

NY picked the best upside asset. But for that pick to be that, he needs minutes year one. 25 a game for good or so worse.

Melo's job is to do his job and to mentor him. Like D Robinson did for T Duncan. Like Jabber did for Magic. Like Pete Maravich, Tiny Archibald, Dave Cowens did for Bird. Like Caldwell Jones, George Gervin, Dave Corzine did for MJ

...Like Tom Kropp did for Arenas, like Yoko Ono and Machu Picchu did for John Lennon, like Felix Pie and Wonderful Monds did for Adam Jones.

Btw, none of 6,8,9, or 10 would help NY be a contender next season for anything more than another lottery pick.

[barelyawake]

I'm not so sure. Porter is thin, but I think he is wiry strong a la Kevin Garnett. Sure, he's going to have trouble with guys like Zach Randolph, but those guys are dinosaurs. I think he'll eventually be able to guard 75% of the starting PF's in the game.

And the 25% are going to be the ones in the playoffs. And A bunch of SFs playing together could work, if we had prime Camby or prime Ben Wallace roaming the lane. Gortat gets lost on help defense every other play and has zero cred with the refs against the elite bigs of the NBA. This discussion honestly reminds me of people convincing themselves that Blatche could one day develop into a star player. Gortat is what he is. He's a good roleplayer. You can't expect to beat the elite teams of the league with two role players at the four and five, especially two that don't compliment each other as Porter and Gortat do not.

You underrate Gortat. He's more than a good role player.

Among centers averaging 25 or more minutes a game, Gortat ranks 6th in real plus minus, and 6th in defensive plus minus. He ranks 15th in the league at FG% allowed at the rim. He's not Serge Ibaka or Rudy Gobert as a rim protector, but he's in the same echelon as Horford, Marc Gasol and Drummond.

... in the regular season; in the East; not with Porter at the four and in a league that is about to get an infusion of big men.

[payitforward]

And the 25% are going to be the ones in the playoffs. And A bunch of SFs playing together could work, if we had prime Camby or prime Ben Wallace roaming the lane. Gortat gets lost on help defense every other play and has zero cred with the refs against the elite bigs of the NBA. This discussion honestly reminds me of people convincing themselves that Blatche could one day develop into a star player. Gortat is what he is. He's a good roleplayer. You can't expect to beat the elite teams of the league with two role players at the four and five, especially two that don't compliment each other as Porter and Gortat do not.

You underrate Gortat. He's more than a good role player.

Among centers averaging 25 or more minutes a game, Gortat ranks 6th in real plus minus, and 6th in defensive plus minus. He ranks 15th in the league at FG% allowed at the rim. He's not Serge Ibaka or Rudy Gobert as a rim protector, but he's in the same echelon as Horford, Marc Gasol and Drummond.

... in the regular season; in the East; not with Porter at the four and in a league that is about to get an infusion of big men.

Among Centers who played 2000+ minutes, Gortat had the 9th best WP48.

Gortat has played some of his career in the Eastern Conference and some in the Western. His numbers season to season show no correlation to conference. He's a very good NBA Center. He's been very productive as a Wizard as well.

[hands11]

Ok.. I have a new comp for Kelly..

It came to me after seeing a picture of this shooting form and watching a sports piece this weekend on a famous group of young men.

Spoiler:

J Rose was a little taller but and better passer but there are some similarities...shooting form, lefty, edgy/confident.
http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/738/jalen-rose

[keynote]

Ok.. I have a new comp for Kelly..

It came to me after seeing a picture of this shooting form and watching a sports piece this weekend on a famous group of young men.

Spoiler:

J Rose was a little taller but
http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/738/jalen-rose

I don't see it.
Jalen Rose had PG skills (ball handling & court vision), and was a far more polished prospect coming out than Oubre. Oubre is a more explosive athlete, and might pan out to be a better shooter. But I'd be really surprised of Oubre ever developed the playmaking instincts Rose had as a freshman.

[hands11]

You underrate Gortat. He's more than a good role player.

Among centers averaging 25 or more minutes a game, Gortat ranks 6th in real plus minus, and 6th in defensive plus minus. He ranks 15th in the league at FG% allowed at the rim. He's not Serge Ibaka or Rudy Gobert as a rim protector, but he's in the same echelon as Horford, Marc Gasol and Drummond.

... in the regular season; in the East; not with Porter at the four and in a league that is about to get an infusion of big men.

Among Centers who played 2000+ minutes, Gortat had the 9th best WP48.

Gortat has played some of his career in the Eastern Conference and some in the Western. His numbers season to season show no correlation to conference. He's a very good NBA Center. He's been very productive as a Wizard as well.

He may well be the most balanced center in the league right now.

Size, offense, defense, running the floor, fts, passing, experience.

Gortat is good. If they actually took advantage of this skill more, he could be an AS

[The Consiglieri]

It is a bit odd, however, to select him when you're supposedly advertising yourself to '16 free agents, but then you use a top 15 pick on a guy who seemingly everyone is saying won't play meaningful minutes until at least 2017 barring horrible injuries.

Would anyone that the Zards picked at 19 have played meaningful minutes before 2017? Would any player picked in that spot have made much of an impression on 2016 free agents? Maybe so...but I have my doubts.

The growth and play of Beal, Wall, Otto and, to some extend, Gortat, will be the biggest factors in attracting 2016 free agents.

Portis almost certainly would have, I think Grant would have. Doesn't matter to me as I'm fine with the pick, big supporter for aiming high, even if the floor is lower (though i do happen to believe Porter will at least reach league average starter status, I think he's way better than 22nd in this draft),I'm fine with it, but many people on this board and elsewhere felt that this pick could be used to help market us to free agents, so targeting a guy who could contribute immediately and at a position of need was important.

I don't like that thinking, and didn't support doing that, I'm a BPA guy period (well I have exceptions, but they're rare except for in the NFL Draft). Liked the move, though I think Portis would have been every bit as good a pick and probably better. Time will tell, and again, totally fine with it. Admittedly the last time I felt this way was when we took Singleton, 3 and D (elite D at that), supposedly really high floor (only alarming detail was his 3 pt shooting skyrocketed his last year, leading to concerns about Sample Size), moderate ceiling, Tobias Harris, and Kenny Faried all were basically dead even for me and I would have cheered any of the 3. Of course that completely blew up in our faces . I have a strong feeling this will have a happier ending, I think he comes close to his ceiling, and maybe more than close.

[TheSecretWeapon]

Ok.. I have a new comp for Kelly..

It came to me after seeing a picture of this shooting form and watching a sports piece this weekend on a famous group of young men.

Spoiler:

J Rose was a little taller but
http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/738/jalen-rose

I don't see it.
Jalen Rose had PG skills (ball handling & court vision), and was a far more polished prospect coming out than Oubre. Oubre is a more explosive athlete, and might pan out to be a better shooter. But I'd be really surprised of Oubre ever developed the playmaking instincts Rose had as a freshman.

You don't see it because it's completely wrong. Rose was basically a PG. Oubre is a wing. Totally different players.

[fishercob]

Ok.. I have a new comp for Kelly..

It came to me after seeing a picture of this shooting form and watching a sports piece this weekend on a famous group of young men.

Spoiler:

J Rose was a little taller but
http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/738/jalen-rose

I don't see it.
Jalen Rose had PG skills (ball handling & court vision), and was a far more polished prospect coming out than Oubre. Oubre is a more explosive athlete, and might pan out to be a better shooter. But I'd be really surprised of Oubre ever developed the playmaking instincts Rose had as a freshman.

You don't see it because it's completely wrong. Rose was basically a PG. Oubre is a wing. Totally different players.

But they're both lefthanded and have O's in their last names!

[Ruzious]

Okay, so we've determined that Oubre does not fall into the Young Nick mold, the Jalen Rose Mold, and probably a bunch of others. But does he fall into a light version of last year's #1 #1 Andrew Wiggins

Spoiler:

Fake spoiler alert. Made you look. Haha.

[Jaekast]

Someone create a Bobby Portis shrine for all his fanboys.

[Jaekast]

I really hope Oubre has a great season...so that people can get over their man crush on Bobby Portis.

[truwizfan4evr]

I really hope Oubre has a great season...so that people can get over their man crush on Bobby Portis.

I'm with you on that man.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

I don't see it.
Jalen Rose had PG skills (ball handling & court vision), and was a far more polished prospect coming out than Oubre. Oubre is a more explosive athlete, and might pan out to be a better shooter. But I'd be really surprised of Oubre ever developed the playmaking instincts Rose had as a freshman.

You don't see it because it's completely wrong. Rose was basically a PG. Oubre is a wing. Totally different players.

But they're both lefthanded and have O's in their last names!

hands, if NBA color analysts mention Oubre resembles Jalen Rose, I'll remember this back-and-forth.

http://washington.cbslocal.com/2015/06/26/wizards-top-pick-kelly-oubre-jr-calls-himself-steal-of-the-draft/

Wizards general manager Ernie Grunfeld said, “Kelly is a very talented and athletic young player who can play and defend both the shooting guard and small forward positions. He has terrific upside and can come into a situation where he can take his time and learn from our veterans.”

Jalen Rose, in reaction to the Hawks’ selection, drew a comparison Wizards fans will appreciate.
“I really like the pick,” he said. “As [Rece Davis] mentioned, he’s a really good defender. He reminds me a lot of Trevor Ariza. Second most efficient isolation defender in the Big 12.”

I was furious at the pick. Time will tell. Kid is outspoken, handsome, not lacking for confidence. KD's homeboy.....

Maybe I'll be wrong but I think Portis is so obviously leagues better, and so is Looney. Ithink the Wizards are basically really bad at drafting.

We'll see.

[barelyawake]

You underrate Gortat. He's more than a good role player.

Among centers averaging 25 or more minutes a game, Gortat ranks 6th in real plus minus, and 6th in defensive plus minus. He ranks 15th in the league at FG% allowed at the rim. He's not Serge Ibaka or Rudy Gobert as a rim protector, but he's in the same echelon as Horford, Marc Gasol and Drummond.

... in the regular season; in the East; not with Porter at the four and in a league that is about to get an infusion of big men.

Among Centers who played 2000+ minutes, Gortat had the 9th best WP48.

Gortat has played some of his career in the Eastern Conference and some in the Western. His numbers season to season show no correlation to conference. He's a very good NBA Center. He's been very productive as a Wizard as well.

I've been in Martha's Vineyard for awhile. Please let me respond.

It's amazing such a great center (you know the hardest possition to fill on a basketball court) was traded for an injured/retired player and Tyler Ennis (who?). You would think a team would hold on to such an asset with their dear life.

As I said, regular season stats are meaningless. You people act as though the game of basketball is putting together the best players of regular season stats and that's how you win a championship. Problem is that never works. That is why they call teams "paper tigers." As I said, I remember similar statistical arguments about how Blatche was a future star forward. You know why it didn't happen? You know why Gortat's stats during the playoffs (when it matters) don't match your supposed lofty ideas of where he should be? Because refs don't base playoff calls on stats.

Do me the grand favor of going to the trade board and asking anyone to trade the top five centers for an injured player and Tyler Ennis. Better yet, ask anyone to trade Gortat straight up for the top fifteen bigs in the game, and see how ridiculously overrated you have him,

[nate33]

... in the regular season; in the East; not with Porter at the four and in a league that is about to get an infusion of big men.

Among Centers who played 2000+ minutes, Gortat had the 9th best WP48.

Gortat has played some of his career in the Eastern Conference and some in the Western. His numbers season to season show no correlation to conference. He's a very good NBA Center. He's been very productive as a Wizard as well.

I've been in Martha's Vineyard for awhile. Please let me respond.

It's amazing such a great center (you know the hardest possition to fill on a basketball court) was traded for an injured/retired player and Tyler Ennis (who?). You would think a team would hold on to such an asset with their dear life.

As I said, regular season stats are meaningless. You people act as though the game of basketball is putting together the best players of regular season stats and that's how you win a championship. Problem is that never works. That is why they call teams "paper tigers." As I said, I remember similar statistical arguments about how Blatche was a future star forward. You know why it didn't happen? You know why Gortat's stats during the playoffs (when it matters) don't match your supposed lofty ideas of where he should be? Because refs don't base playoff calls on stats.

Do me the grand favor of going to the trade board and asking anyone to trade the top five centers for an injured player and Tyler Ennis. Better yet, ask anyone to trade Gortat straight up for the top fifteen bigs in the game, and see how ridiculously overrated you have him,

C'mon now. Phoenix gave Gortat up because they were rebuilding. Gortat was a year away from being an unrestricted free agent and ruining their cap space. They also got a 1st round pick back, a 1st round pick from a team that had been in the lottery for 5 consecutive seasons.

From Phoenix' perspective, they were trading away a 29-year-old center, whom they had under contract for only 1 more year, in exchange for what was assumed to be a lottery pick and an large expiring contract that would give them massive cap space the following year.