The Tobias Harris Situation

[OrlandoDream]

so are we saying by to Vuc too? he has been in our starting lineup longer than Harris and we have yet to surpass the 25 win mark.

How many young Cs out there that avg 19 Pts + 11reb while on a very affordable contract are available to us? None. Tobias is easily replaced while players like Vuc are goldmines to GMs. Unless we miraculously land cousins or gasol, Vuc is irreplaceable right now.

I compare him to Brook Lopez, except Lopez is a bit better on offense and a better shot blocker. look at the teams that won, defensive center, not offensive center. Vuc is a good player, but he is replaceable for a defensive oriented center, and we would probably win more.

Only player I consider in team irreplaceable long-term is Elfrid. Right now we desperately need him. With Tobias likely leaving, we still dont have a legit starting PF, and we have one of the worse shooting backcourts in the NBA, we need to keep scoring on this team. We will be a great defensive team, but the scoring has to come from someone.

[Supreme]

Tobias won't be cheap. The Suns are giving Brandon Knight $14m/year

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/eye-on-basketball/25227859/report-suns-to-sign-brandon-knight-to-five-year-70-million-deal

[BleedGreen1989]

Tobias won't be cheap. The Suns are giving Brandon Knight $14m/year

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/eye-on-basketball/25227859/report-suns-to-sign-brandon-knight-to-five-year-70-million-deal

Tobias will get at least that. I think we can bank on that.

[Magic#1]

Tobias won't be cheap. The Suns are giving Brandon Knight $14m/year

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/eye-on-basketball/25227859/report-suns-to-sign-brandon-knight-to-five-year-70-million-deal

It looks like that's the way the league is going. It's crazy.

[Blue_and_Whte]

How many young Cs out there that avg 19 Pts + 11reb while on a very affordable contract are available to us? None. Tobias is easily replaced while players like Vuc are goldmines to GMs. Unless we miraculously land cousins or gasol, Vuc is irreplaceable right now.

I compare him to Brook Lopez, except Lopez is a bit better on offense and a better shot blocker. look at the teams that won, defensive center, not offensive center. Vuc is a good player, but he is replaceable for a defensive oriented center, and we would probably win more.

Only player I consider in team irreplaceable long-term is Elfrid. Right now we desperately need him. With Tobias likely leaving, we still dont have a legit starting PF, and we have one of the worse shooting backcourts in the NBA, we need to keep scoring on this team. We will be a great defensive team, but the scoring has to come from someone.

and the Nets have had Lopez for how long and THEY haven't done anything either. I think Brook Lopez CAN block the occasional shot but wouldn't call him a good post defender and certainly not one that turns teams into contenders in addition to that he's had constant foot injuries and he's a horrid rebounder. No thanks might as well keep Vuc. If we're trading anyone then trade Harris.

[monchief]

Thank you for the memories Tobias, but I see why Rob is hesitant to throw you a max. He had some great games with us, but the bottom line is that with you in our starting lineup for 3 seasons, we have yet to surpass the 25 win mark. He may become an all star and even a even better scorer one day, but its not like we would be losing Lebron, Durant, or a Paul George. Tobias is a good player, but he is replaceable. If we are going to throw a max around, Id rather wait and shoot for KD(unlikely) or another high caliber FA.

so are we saying by to Vuc too? he has been in our starting lineup longer than Harris and we have yet to surpass the 25 win mark.

How many young Cs out there that avg 19 Pts + 11reb while on a very affordable contract are available to us? None. Tobias is easily replaced while players like Vuc are goldmines to GMs. Unless we miraculously land cousins or gasol, Vuc is irreplaceable right now.

Go look at the list of FAs and find a player who will come to Orlando who can put up 17 and 6 at 23 years old. You aren't grasping the concept of scarcity of talent. And you'd have be crazy to think that a Leonard, Middleton, Draymond Green, or Millsap is going to leave their playoff teams where they can get just as much money to come to a 25 win team with a new coach who has a reputation as a hardass.

[tiderulz]

Tobias won't be cheap. The Suns are giving Brandon Knight $14m/year

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/eye-on-basketball/25227859/report-suns-to-sign-brandon-knight-to-five-year-70-million-deal

It looks like that's the way the league is going. It's crazy.

everyone is anticipating the soon to be cap rise

[The Other Ankle]

Your assertion that Harris would have taken 80% of the absolute maximum that he would be allowed under the CBA is actually an indication that he should not have been extended.

This is an interesting point. Intuitively I get what you're saying -- since the CBA has a maximum contract value, it places an upper limit on the downside. And if we can re-sign our players "for free" without affecting the cap, then isn't that downside simply taking more of the Devos family money?

But then what about extending Vucevic? Were they simply confident enough in his ability to perform and stay healthy? I'd like to hear your take on that.

But the sheer flexibility of having not signed Harris early was almost a no-brainer for management. The available cap room under Tobias' $5 million cap hold is reason enough to have NOT signed him because it could lead to signing a max level free agent while still retaining Harris. If we had extended Harris, we would have had about $7 million less to spend this Summer.

I've seen people post the cap space quirks a few times among all the noise, but I still haven't fully absorbed the ramifications. I get what you're saying, but I've been wondering if we immediately lose our cap space as soon as we match his offer?

THE TOBIAS HARRIS non-SITUATION will be over soon! Hopefully it will end with both Harris and a really good free-agent on our team!

Let's hope!

The Magic extended Vucevic to a contract that everyone now says was a steal. Even average centers get big money, and Nick is WAY above average even though posters bitch about what he IS NOT quite often. So actual position, position of need, health history, consistency, et al might have been a factor. But clearly they made the right decision with Vucevic.

If they extended both players for a total of $22 million or more in the first year, then we would not be players in free agency now. But extending ONE leaves us with room for a maximum free agent under the cap holds, with some minor moves. Nick was the obvious choice, and they seem to have arrived at a number quickly based on common interest. Vucevic is set for life, right? I don't think he feels bad that he might have gotten more and the Magic are in a great position.

The cap space goes away as soon as we match or sign Harris. If they accept an offer before we sign a free agent it could screw up the possibility of getting a new guy AND keeping Harris. It's about the only negative leverage a restricted free agent has, because it actually hurts the team. But in order to make such an offer, the new team would have to have all the cap room in place to bring him on. This involves making some irreversible moves like renouncing players. So it's not a casual situation for anyone.

Best case is that we add whoever we want before Harris gets an offer that would limit our options. He would have to sign the offer as well. So another team can't block us without his involvement. While there are scenarios that would include spite, there are probably more likely scenarios that include common ground. Leonard in San Antonio fully understands that he will be signed to a max contract AFTER the Spurs do whatever else they can to add a stud in free agency. He and his agents are on board. So Tobias and his reps could actually be on the side of the team to the extent that they would not sign an offer that would put us in a worse position. He's going to get paid one way or another. If he really likes it here he can definitely act to make it easier on the Magic while still getting the money.

[tooler]

The cap space goes away as soon as we match or sign Harris. If they accept an offer before we sign a free agent it could screw up the possibility of getting a new guy AND keeping Harris. It's about the only negative leverage a restricted free agent has, because it actually hurts the team. But in order to make such an offer, the new team would have to have all the cap room in place to bring him on. This involves making some irreversible moves like renouncing players. So it's not a casual situation for anyone.

Best case is that we add whoever we want before Harris gets an offer that would limit our options. He would have to sign the offer as well. So another team can't block us without his involvement. While there are scenarios that would include spite, there are probably more likely scenarios that include common ground. Leonard in San Antonio fully understands that he will be signed to a max contract AFTER the Spurs do whatever else they can to add a stud in free agency. He and his agents are on board. So Tobias and his reps could actually be on the side of the team to the extent that they would not sign an offer that would put us in a worse position. He's going to get paid one way or another. If he really likes it here he can definitely act to make it easier on the Magic while still getting the money.

Good to know, thanks. I'm sure the team will talk to him about this and I'm sure the agent knows all about it. So if they sign the ol' 12:01 AM contract, it's a sign they want to force their way out of Orlando since it means Tobias doesn't want to be a team player in free agency.

Which is his right and maybe he thinks he'll get a better opportunity elsewhere, but it's something for the team to watch out for.

I believe they got Channing to agree during the moratorium so I suspect it will be similar this season: Rob has his targets and will try to get to them early, then re-sign Tobias later. We should be fine as long as there is a plan going into free agency and a couple backup plans. We just can't necessarily sit around and wait for free agents to fall in our lap late in the month.

[eyriq]

Tobias won't be cheap. The Suns are giving Brandon Knight $14m/year

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/eye-on-basketball/25227859/report-suns-to-sign-brandon-knight-to-five-year-70-million-deal

Tobias will get at least that. I think we can bank on that.

Another team will have to set his market value with the risk we'll match. Who is going to do that? Phoenix resigned their own free agent and did not test the market, we are going the opposite route. Completely different situations.

[The Other Ankle]

Tobias won't be cheap. The Suns are giving Brandon Knight $14m/year

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/eye-on-basketball/25227859/report-suns-to-sign-brandon-knight-to-five-year-70-million-deal

Tobias will get at least that. I think we can bank on that.

Another team will have to set his market value with the risk we'll match. Who is going to do that? Phoenix resigned their own free agent and did not test the market, we are going the opposite route. Completely different situations.

Exactly. The real news will be when players actually move teams. Any big names that jump push us up in the ranking of free agent destinations. The fact that we can add a player and then pay Tobias is huge if it works out that way.

[tooler]

The whole cap dance helps explain the lowball offer: we'd no longer have max cap space this season if he had taken it, but the contract would've been so good we'd come out ahead anyway.

[BleedGreen1989]

Tobias won't be cheap. The Suns are giving Brandon Knight $14m/year

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/eye-on-basketball/25227859/report-suns-to-sign-brandon-knight-to-five-year-70-million-deal

Tobias will get at least that. I think we can bank on that.

Another team will have to set his market value with the risk we'll match. Who is going to do that? Phoenix resigned their own free agent and did not test the market, we are going the opposite route. Completely different situations.

Well sure, the it's a little different, but I think we can all agree Tobias will be getting at least $14mill from somebody?

That's really the only point to was trying to make..

[purpleswordfish]

The cap space goes away as soon as we match or sign Harris. If they accept an offer before we sign a free agent it could screw up the possibility of getting a new guy AND keeping Harris. It's about the only negative leverage a restricted free agent has, because it actually hurts the team. But in order to make such an offer, the new team would have to have all the cap room in place to bring him on. This involves making some irreversible moves like renouncing players. So it's not a casual situation for anyone.

Best case is that we add whoever we want before Harris gets an offer that would limit our options. He would have to sign the offer as well. So another team can't block us without his involvement. While there are scenarios that would include spite, there are probably more likely scenarios that include common ground. Leonard in San Antonio fully understands that he will be signed to a max contract AFTER the Spurs do whatever else they can to add a stud in free agency. He and his agents are on board. So Tobias and his reps could actually be on the side of the team to the extent that they would not sign an offer that would put us in a worse position. He's going to get paid one way or another. If he really likes it here he can definitely act to make it easier on the Magic while still getting the money.

Good to know, thanks. I'm sure the team will talk to him about this and I'm sure the agent knows all about it. So if they sign the ol' 12:01 AM contract, it's a sign they want to force their way out of Orlando since it means Tobias doesn't want to be a team player in free agency.

Which is his right and maybe he thinks he'll get a better opportunity elsewhere, but it's something for the team to watch out for.

I believe they got Channing to agree during the moratorium so I suspect it will be similar this season: Rob has his targets and will try to get to them early, then re-sign Tobias later. We should be fine as long as there is a plan going into free agency and a couple backup plans. We just can't necessarily sit around and wait for free agents to fall in our lap late in the month.

LMAO @ the idea of "being a team player" in free agency. In any business, you do what's best for you and your family, not what's best for the employer that lowballed you a year ago.

[UCFJayBird]

The cap space goes away as soon as we match or sign Harris. If they accept an offer before we sign a free agent it could screw up the possibility of getting a new guy AND keeping Harris. It's about the only negative leverage a restricted free agent has, because it actually hurts the team. But in order to make such an offer, the new team would have to have all the cap room in place to bring him on. This involves making some irreversible moves like renouncing players. So it's not a casual situation for anyone.

Best case is that we add whoever we want before Harris gets an offer that would limit our options. He would have to sign the offer as well. So another team can't block us without his involvement. While there are scenarios that would include spite, there are probably more likely scenarios that include common ground. Leonard in San Antonio fully understands that he will be signed to a max contract AFTER the Spurs do whatever else they can to add a stud in free agency. He and his agents are on board. So Tobias and his reps could actually be on the side of the team to the extent that they would not sign an offer that would put us in a worse position. He's going to get paid one way or another. If he really likes it here he can definitely act to make it easier on the Magic while still getting the money.

Good to know, thanks. I'm sure the team will talk to him about this and I'm sure the agent knows all about it. So if they sign the ol' 12:01 AM contract, it's a sign they want to force their way out of Orlando since it means Tobias doesn't want to be a team player in free agency.

Which is his right and maybe he thinks he'll get a better opportunity elsewhere, but it's something for the team to watch out for.

I believe they got Channing to agree during the moratorium so I suspect it will be similar this season: Rob has his targets and will try to get to them early, then re-sign Tobias later. We should be fine as long as there is a plan going into free agency and a couple backup plans. We just can't necessarily sit around and wait for free agents to fall in our lap late in the month.

LMAO @ the idea of "being a team player" in free agency. In any business, you do what's best for you and your family, not what's best for the employer that lowballed you a year ago.

If he tries to be a team player by holding out on signing an offer sheet until the Magic sign someone, he risks losing that offer sheet and getting a smaller deal.

For any player, if you have a good deal offered to you and you think it's the best you get, you pounce. Sure, you would like to help your team out as best you can. But at the end of the day you've got to look out for your family first and foremost.

As fans we can hope that maybe Tobias doesn't get that actual offer right away, maybe Orlando signs their guy right before Tobias signs his offer sheet. But that's about it.

[tooler]

No need to laugh about it. Like mentioned, Kawhi Leonard knows he will get a max offer from the Spurs (or anyone else) and he can wait a little while to give them breathing room.

Tobias might realize he's not a true max player and jump on an offer right away. Or everyone could negotiate and get on board beforehand. Who knows what will happen.

In the real world, not everything is as cut and dry as "you do what's best for you." Sometimes you can work together and create something even greater.

As I said -- you did read my entire post, right? -- Tobias has every right to do what he wants and I won't blame him. But he does have an option to get on board and we'll get an indication of his intentions that way. No big deal.

[tooler]

What's still not clear to me is whether we lose the "cap room" the instant he signs an offer. Like if we agreed to sign a free agent during the moratorium but there is some goofy timing with when the signatures are written at 12:01 AM.

If there's a provision to protect against this, then I guess what Tobias does would be irrelevant, so long as we have our FA lined up by the end of the moratorium.

There is a lot to learn. I just spent some time reading cbafaq. It's interesting.

[tiderulz]

No need to laugh about it. Like mentioned, Kawhi Leonard knows he will get a max offer from the Spurs (or anyone else) and he can wait a little while to give them breathing room.

Tobias might realize he's not a true max player and jump on an offer right away. Or everyone could negotiate and get on board beforehand. Who knows what will happen.

In the real world, not everything is as cut and dry as "you do what's best for you." Sometimes you can work together and create something even greater.

As I said -- you did read my entire post, right? -- Tobias has every right to do what he wants and I won't blame him. But he does have an option to get on board and we'll get an indication of his intentions that way. No big deal.

different situations. SA has done everything to assure Kawhi that is he a core player and part of their future. Same hasnt been done for Harris.

[The Other Ankle]

Good to know, thanks. I'm sure the team will talk to him about this and I'm sure the agent knows all about it. So if they sign the ol' 12:01 AM contract, it's a sign they want to force their way out of Orlando since it means Tobias doesn't want to be a team player in free agency.

Which is his right and maybe he thinks he'll get a better opportunity elsewhere, but it's something for the team to watch out for.

I believe they got Channing to agree during the moratorium so I suspect it will be similar this season: Rob has his targets and will try to get to them early, then re-sign Tobias later. We should be fine as long as there is a plan going into free agency and a couple backup plans. We just can't necessarily sit around and wait for free agents to fall in our lap late in the month.

LMAO @ the idea of "being a team player" in free agency. In any business, you do what's best for you and your family, not what's best for the employer that lowballed you a year ago.

If he tries to be a team player by holding out on signing an offer sheet until the Magic sign someone, he risks losing that offer sheet and getting a smaller deal.

For any player, if you have a good deal offered to you and you think it's the best you get, you pounce. Sure, you would like to help your team out as best you can. But at the end of the day you've got to look out for your family first and foremost.

As fans we can hope that maybe Tobias doesn't get that actual offer right away, maybe Orlando signs their guy right before Tobias signs his offer sheet. But that's about it.

Plenty of reasons to cooperate, unless you think the first offer will be the only one or you actually prefer to play elsewhere. A new situation will involve many risks and challenges compared to returning, not to mention the logistics of uprooting lives. Look at how often new players simply do not fit (Rondo & Stephenson come to mind last year). Staying with the original team is the most likely outcome, even when an outright adversarial offer gets signed. And these kind of offers usually hurt the team making them more due to renouncing their own free agents and ending up with nothing.

Negotiations with other teams usually lead to establishing value moreso than accepting offers, or having a signed offer not be matched. Plus, there's an entire week where nothing can be signed. So there is plenty of opportunity for communication. "Being a team player" is usually in the interest of the player as well as the team, given there is a high probability that this is where he's going to play for the foreseeable future. Pissing in the cornflakes with an awkward offer is more likely to lead to a future trade in which the player is not advised or consulted about his preferences.

Tobias' family will be fine and he probably played better without having been extended due to basic human nature. There's a reason the call it a "Contract Year" and that players across the board have upticks in performance under conditions of proving their worth. So he'll be better off in general, even if some posters feel the need to take up for him like he as been mistreated in some way. Not signing a restricted free agent to a huge extension a year before necessary isn't a slight. It's the normal course of action. Both Harris and the Magic are in a better position because of it, even if a small number of posters on this site have taken offense.

[UCFJayBird]

No need to laugh about it. Like mentioned, Kawhi Leonard knows he will get a max offer from the Spurs (or anyone else) and he can wait a little while to give them breathing room.

Tobias might realize he's not a true max player and jump on an offer right away. Or everyone could negotiate and get on board beforehand. Who knows what will happen.

In the real world, not everything is as cut and dry as "you do what's best for you." Sometimes you can work together and create something even greater.

As I said -- you did read my entire post, right? -- Tobias has every right to do what he wants and I won't blame him. But he does have an option to get on board and we'll get an indication of his intentions that way. No big deal.

different situations. SA has done everything to assure Kawhi that is he a core player and part of their future. Same hasnt been done for Harris.

hasn't it, though? Hennigan has never wavered from "We plan to match whatever offer Tobias gets". Yea we're not willing to max him out right out of the gate, but the Magic have, at least publicly, stated they plan to keep Tobias.

It could be as simple as Harris getting a call from a few teams, calling Rob and saying "Teams are offering me this much" and Hennigan saying "Ok, we'll match it, just let us sign _____ first."

We really don't know enough about what's going on.