The Tobias Harris Situation

[tiderulz]

Like I've said all along, Tobias is selfish and his mindset doesnt fit with the collective mindset of the rest of this team. Selfish me first loser. And now reports he doesn't want to play for Skiles again. Dont let your ego hit the door on the way out.

By the way, where all all those sulky Tobes fangirls who were on me all year about Tobes not being this selfish egocentric player? What are your thoughts now? Running out of defenses.

you may have said it, but no one else see's this selfishness you proclaim. reports from a NY reporter, yet something that has been denied directly from Skiles and Harris. but then, you dont want to bring up that rumor do you, doesnt fit well with your agenda.

[tooler]

From my perspective it's a bit odder those who stick up for players and individuals on this board with no type of affiliation.

I don't pretend I'm not a Tobias fan, it was Tobias that ultimately bought me to this board. I grew up a Magic Fan, but I still wouldn't BLINDLY follow the opinions of Hennigan or any other GM for that matter.

There are players who can do no wrong in the eyes of some posters on this board. I don't know if some of you choose to simply ignore the large amount of bias that goes on here in attempts to support management decisions, but IMO i'm glad I can at least I can put a finger on the reason for my allegiance to Tobias

People are weird and they like to pick sides and fight about dumb things, especially on the Internet. To me that's just noise. People post about things casually without thinking it through. They get excited about shiny new things. Eventually they turn on them. It's kid stuff. Why let it bother you?

That's a lot different from joining a forum and posting 1500 times in support of a single player, trying to sow doubt about teammates, coaches, and management, and trashing the fan base in other teams' forums.

If Tobias does get re-signed, I hope you can participate as a Magic fan first and try not to be so sensitive about the ham-fisted posts here about Tobias Harris. (Winning would solve everything.) And if he goes elsewhere, I hope you don't turn on that fan base when they begin to criticize him too. It'd be nice if you didn't trash us in your new home either, but I don't really care.

[shadrock]

Like I've said all along, Tobias is selfish and his mindset doesnt fit with the collective mindset of the rest of this team. Selfish me first loser. And now reports he doesn't want to play for Skiles again. Dont let your ego hit the door on the way out.

By the way, where all all those sulky Tobes fangirls who were on me all year about Tobes not being this selfish egocentric player? What are your thoughts now? Running out of defenses.

you may have said it, but no one else see's this selfishness you proclaim. reports from a NY reporter, yet something that has been denied directly from Skiles and Harris. but then, you dont want to bring up that rumor do you, doesnt fit well with your agenda.

Oh youre the agenda guy! Omg this is like old times. I have an opinion about Tobias that has ended up being true so lets just say i have an agenda to save face haha.

[Neon1]

The Magic were a poor defensive team last year. On such a team, you would expect even an average defender to help them. Instead, they were worse defensively when Harris was on the floor. By a lot. The raw numbers are here:
http://www.82games.com/1415/14ORL10.HTM#onoff
You could do special pleading and say it's because of who he takes the floor with or against, but the adjusted numbers take that into account and they are bad too:
http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/page/2/sort/DRPM/position/5

There is a similar pattern if you look at numbers from the prior season.

Harris is part of the problem. The idea that he is even an average defender now is a very tough sell. The real question is can he become a good defender down the road.

But yet ignore this from the very same website.
http://www.82games.com/1415/1415ORL.HTM

I don't think you want to point at that. It too says that Magic were worse when Harris was on the floor.

Mostly this debate is showing that those who don't like on/off data simply don't understand it. It's tough to discuss it under those circumstances.

If you're so sold on +/- bring the end all be all even if pretty much every other stat says opposite, Then did you look at Aaron's vs Tobias? Oladipo vs Fournier? Oladipo vs Green?

Dedmon?

Or is it only the end all be all for Tobias?

http://www.82games.com/1415/1415ORL.HTM)

[tiderulz]

Like I've said all along, Tobias is selfish and his mindset doesnt fit with the collective mindset of the rest of this team. Selfish me first loser. And now reports he doesn't want to play for Skiles again. Dont let your ego hit the door on the way out.

By the way, where all all those sulky Tobes fangirls who were on me all year about Tobes not being this selfish egocentric player? What are your thoughts now? Running out of defenses.

you may have said it, but no one else see's this selfishness you proclaim. reports from a NY reporter, yet something that has been denied directly from Skiles and Harris. but then, you dont want to bring up that rumor do you, doesnt fit well with your agenda.

Oh youre the agenda guy! Omg this is like old times. I have an opinion about Tobias that has ended up being true so lets just say i have an agenda to save face haha.

still asking, you keep saying its true. How is it true? can you share why you think its true? other than some mysterious source from a NY Knicks beat writer?

[mojosodope]

From my perspective it's a bit odder those who stick up for players and individuals on this board with no type of affiliation.

I don't pretend I'm not a Tobias fan, it was Tobias that ultimately bought me to this board. I grew up a Magic Fan, but I still wouldn't BLINDLY follow the opinions of Hennigan or any other GM for that matter.

There are players who can do no wrong in the eyes of some posters on this board. I don't know if some of you choose to simply ignore the large amount of bias that goes on here in attempts to support management decisions, but IMO i'm glad I can at least I can put a finger on the reason for my allegiance to Tobias

People are weird and they like to pick sides and fight about dumb things, especially on the Internet. To me that's just noise. People post about things casually without thinking it through. They get excited about shiny new things. Eventually they turn on them. It's kid stuff. Why let it bother you?

That's a lot different from joining a forum and posting 1500 times in support of a single player, trying to sow doubt about teammates, coaches, and management, and trashing the fan base in other teams' forums.

If Tobias does get re-signed, I hope you can participate as a Magic fan first and try not to be so sensitive about the ham-fisted posts here about Tobias Harris. (Winning would solve everything.) And if he goes elsewhere, I hope you don't turn on that fan base when they begin to criticize him too. It'd be nice if you didn't trash us in your new home either, but I don't really care.

I post in support of Tobias because I'm a fan of his. I choose not to post as much about the way the current team is constructed, it's players, coaches or management because my posts would be a lot more negative than I wish to be on an online forum.

Harris fan or Magic fan my feelings about the following would really be the same:

No I don't think the team is constructed very well, no I don't think offensive, non-rim protecting centers are the best fit for this Magic team winning in today's league, no I do not think it was a great idea to give Oladipo the green light and the ball to do whatever he wants, no I do not see everything everyone else sees in Aaron Gordon (and I like Aaron Gordon), no I do not think JV was a really good coach,no I am not going to blindly support every move Rob Hennigan makes without questioning.

Whether you realize it or not, I refrain from blatantly sharing those feelings on a regular basis, but sometimes my true feelings do make it through, If that is sowing doubt, I don't know what to tell you.

[tooler]

No I don't think the team is constructed very well, no I don't think offensive, non-rim protecting centers are the best fit for winning in today's league, no I do not think it was a great idea to give Oladipo the green light and the ball to do whatever he wants, no I do not see everything everyone else sees in Aaron Gordon, no I do not think JV was a really good coach,no I am not going to blindly support every move Rob Hennigan makes without questioning.

I'm with you on every point. Don't forget a point guard who can't shoot.

But I'm still enjoying myself.

[tooler]

Cross-posting this comment from Zach Lowe.

A bunch of those teams — Utah, Orlando, Milwaukee, Detroit, Phoenix, and others — have cap room this summer, and they should be hell-bent on using it. I don’t really even care who they sign, provided it’s not an obviously below-average player on the downswing. Pick a young or mid-career free agent and **** splurge. Almost any deal with a solid player at $15 million or below this summer will look fine once the cap cracks $100 million. Have a jones for Khris Middleton? MAX HIM OUT. Hesitant to snap up Monroe in free agency because you already have one decent low-post guy? SIGN HIM ANYWAY. Does $12 million for DeMarre Carroll or Danny Green seem insane? They’re in their primes, and they do very important NBA things well. GO GET THEM. Barring disaster, all these guys will be on tradable contracts if the fit isn’t ideal on your team.

...

Don’t be shy, Magic and Bucks. Use the $15 million in cap room you have while Middleton and Tobias Harris, respectively, hang in free agency, and then spend heavy to bring those young dudes back.

I suspect this is what will happen, and the cap room quirk brought up by The Other Ankle and I'm sure others is probably why we're in this situation.

[mojosodope]

No I don't think the team is constructed very well, no I don't think offensive, non-rim protecting centers are the best fit for winning in today's league, no I do not think it was a great idea to give Oladipo the green light and the ball to do whatever he wants, no I do not see everything everyone else sees in Aaron Gordon, no I do not think JV was a really good coach,no I am not going to blindly support every move Rob Hennigan makes without questioning.

I'm with you on every point. Don't forget a point guard who can't shoot.

But I'm still enjoying myself.

I dont hide that I'm a Tobias fan is all I'm saying. I'm also not sowing doubt, I just prefer to not be as outright negative on those thoughts. My true sentiment sometimes bleeds through

I didn't include EP because I actually like his game and think it can work even if he can't shoot

[drsd]

Resigning Harris retains an asset. This is not more deep for me.


..

[uraverage]

you may have said it, but no one else see's this selfishness you proclaim. reports from a NY reporter, yet something that has been denied directly from Skiles and Harris. but then, you dont want to bring up that rumor do you, doesnt fit well with your agenda.

Oh youre the agenda guy! Omg this is like old times. I have an opinion about Tobias that has ended up being true so lets just say i have an agenda to save face haha.

still asking, you keep saying its true. How is it true? can you share why you think its true? other than some mysterious source from a NY Knicks beat writer?

I love this crap.... Like Tobias gets a choice. Go sign the contract you think you are worth and we will match. Henny already said this. Tobias is not going anywhere unless Henny says its so... He has not been a bad player considering he cost us a leaving JJ that we were not getting anything for .

[BadMofoPimp]

I'm trying to understand the point you're trying to make.

It's just surreal to me, that's all. No point, no agenda. Maybe I'm getting too old.

From my perspective it's a bit odder those who stick up for players and individuals on this board with no type of affiliation.

I don't pretend I'm not a Tobias fan, it was Tobias that ultimately bought me to this board. I grew up a Magic Fan, but I still wouldn't BLINDLY follow the opinions of Hennigan or any other GM for that matter.

There are players who can do no wrong in the eyes of some posters on this board. I don't know if some of you choose to simply ignore the large amount of bias that goes on here in attempts to support management decisions, but IMO i'm glad I can at least I can put a finger on the reason for my allegiance to Tobias

BBD really needs to prove you all wrong!!!

[OrlandO]

Imagine if Harris favorites that tweet from michael scott or whatever his name is.

[seeingstars]

Sign & trade with Boston, here we come. Get it Henny!

But Boston could sign Harris out right without giving up any assets this doesn't make no sense.

And if it did make sense and for whatever reason we did somehow facilitate a S&T w/ a team that has available cap we will get close to nothing in return....(for ex. Phil Pressey)

If he signs an offer sheet, I'm pretty sure we'd match. I don't see Henny letting Harris go for nothing. Harris preferring not to play here could be seen as leverage from another team OR we simply play him under Smiles and see how it goes while we wait trade offers. We're in the driver's seat, not Harris and not the other teams. We have the assets and patience to wait.

[SOUL]

Imagine if Harris favorites that tweet from michael scott or whatever his name is.

[eyriq]

The Magic were a poor defensive team last year. On such a team, you would expect even an average defender to help them. Instead, they were worse defensively when Harris was on the floor. By a lot. The raw numbers are here:
http://www.82games.com/1415/14ORL10.HTM#onoff
You could do special pleading and say it's because of who he takes the floor with or against, but the adjusted numbers take that into account and they are bad too:
http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/page/2/sort/DRPM/position/5

There is a similar pattern if you look at numbers from the prior season.

Harris is part of the problem. The idea that he is even an average defender now is a very tough sell. The real question is can he become a good defender down the road.

But yet ignore this from the very same website.
http://www.82games.com/1415/1415ORL.HTM

I don't think you want to point at that. It too says that Magic were worse when Harris was on the floor.

Mostly this debate is showing that those who don't like on/off data simply don't understand it. It's tough to discuss it under those circumstances.

No, I don't think they do understand it completely, though I do have to say on their behalf that they understand its flaws and limitations and that they simply choose to the devalue it more than I think is warranted.

[Skin]

Sign & trade with Boston, here we come. Get it Henny!

But Boston could sign Harris out right without giving up any assets this doesn't make no sense.

And if it did make sense and for whatever reason we did somehow facilitate a S&T w/ a team that has available cap we will get close to nothing in return....(for ex. Phil Pressey)

If he signs an offer sheet, I'm pretty sure we'd match. I don't see Henny letting Harris go for nothing. Harris preferring not to play here could be seen as leverage from another team OR we simply play him under Smiles and see how it goes while we wait trade offers. We're in the driver's seat, not Harris and not the other teams. We have the assets and patience to wait.

Magic_Johnny, you are in the Trade Forum quite often right? Or am I mistaking you for someone else. How do you not know this by now? Harris is a Restricted FA. Is there some loophole you know of?

[mojosodope]

But yet ignore this from the very same website.
http://www.82games.com/1415/1415ORL.HTM

I don't think you want to point at that. It too says that Magic were worse when Harris was on the floor.

Mostly this debate is showing that those who don't like on/off data simply don't understand it. It's tough to discuss it under those circumstances.

No, I don't think they do understand it completely, though I do have to say on their behalf that they understand its flaws and limitations and that they simply choose to the devalue it more than I think is warranted.

I would also be much less inclined to say "harris really improved his defense" if his RPM went up significantly after playing under a competent coach or with a rim protecting PF or Center. I

I dont see you being very inclined to give Harris that much credit, but if he were to show a sharp increase in RPM, I would again look to factors such as those to show he they may have skewed his numbers

[tooler]

I finally got someone to confirm that Harris signing an offer DOES NOT affect our cap space in the 72 hour window. It only affects the cap space of the new team. This happened with Chandler Parsons last season. I remember now there was a big scramble in the 72 hours.

Conclusion: as long as the Magic have their UFA targets lined up and ready to sign in the first few days of free agency, we're at no risk of losing Harris. The only way he walks is if the front office wants him to.

[seeingstars]

I finally got someone to confirm that Harris signing an offer DOES NOT affect our cap space in the 72 hour window. It only affects the cap space of the new team. This happened with Chandler Parsons last season. I remember now there was a big scramble in the 72 hours.

Conclusion: as long as the Magic have their UFA targets lined up and ready to sign in the first few days of free agency, we're at no risk of losing Harris. The only way he walks is if the front office wants him to.

Well that's great to know, thanks for sharing!