2015 Draft Thread - Part 1

[barelyawake]

The pick was top 12 protected.

[nate33]

The pick was top 12 protected.

Forgot that.

But my point still stands. A rebuilding team didn't have a need for a 30-year-old center on an expensive contract. It made sense to trade him. They got a pick in the teens, dumped two crap contracts, and set themselves up for big cap room.

[DCZards]

As I said, regular season stats are meaningless. You people act as though the game of basketball is putting together the best players of regular season stats and that's how you win a championship. Problem is that never works. That is why they call teams "paper tigers." As I said, I remember similar statistical arguments about how Blatche was a future star forward. You know why it didn't happen? You know why Gortat's stats during the playoffs (when it matters) don't match your supposed lofty ideas of where he should be? Because refs don't base playoff calls on stats.

Yeah, Gortat's stats may have taken a hit in the playoffs...but they Zards aren't even in the playoffs without him.

[barelyawake]

The pick was top 12 protected.

Forgot that.

But my point still stands. A rebuilding team didn't have a need for a 30-year-old center on an expensive contract. It made sense to trade him. They got a pick in the teens, dumped two crap contracts, and set themselves up for big cap room.

And you couldn't get any of the top fifteen bigs for that package. And the Suns never qualified for the playoffs when he was there.

You put Porter next to Gortat, in the playoffs, Porter gets backed down by bigger/star PFs until Gortat rotates to help, they pass to the center (which Gortat is too slow to recover to), dunk. Rinse repeat. And we have close to no post game, because the game slows down and Gortat doesn't get the whistle and can't create his own shot. We need better to win a championship. I'm trying to force management to make us better. That's my goal. Not to overrate what we have; find ourselves unable to win a championship and waste Wall's prime. My two cents.

[DCZards]

And you couldn't get any of the top fifteen bigs for that package. And the Suns never qualified for the playoffs when he was there.

You put Porter next to Gortat, in the playoffs, Porter gets backed down by bigger/star PFs until Gortat rotates to help, they pass to the center (which Gortat is too slow to recover to), dunk. Rinse repeat. And we have close to no post game, because the game slows down and Gortat doesn't get the whistle and can't create his own shot. We need better to win a championship. I'm trying to force management to make us better. That's my goal. Not to overrate what we have; find ourselves unable to win a championship and waste Wall's prime. My two cents.

We all want for the Zards to get better. But you just can't wish for these things to happen. Who's the center out there currently who is both better than Gortat and available? You got any names?

[barelyawake]

And you couldn't get any of the top fifteen bigs for that package. And the Suns never qualified for the playoffs when he was there.

You put Porter next to Gortat, in the playoffs, Porter gets backed down by bigger/star PFs until Gortat rotates to help, they pass to the center (which Gortat is too slow to recover to), dunk. Rinse repeat. And we have close to no post game, because the game slows down and Gortat doesn't get the whistle and can't create his own shot. We need better to win a championship. I'm trying to force management to make us better. That's my goal. Not to overrate what we have; find ourselves unable to win a championship and waste Wall's prime. My two cents.

We all want for the Zards to get better. But you just can't wish for these things to happen. Who's the center out there currently who is both better than Gortat and available? You got any names?

Well, had we done my plan and gotten Chandler for a year, we would be in the discussion for Aldridge (and we would have Tyler Ennis whoever he is). Currently, Cousins is mostly likely being traded.

[Dat2U]

The pick was top 12 protected.

Forgot that.

But my point still stands. A rebuilding team didn't have a need for a 30-year-old center on an expensive contract. It made sense to trade him. They got a pick in the teens, dumped two crap contracts, and set themselves up for big cap room.

And you couldn't get any of the top fifteen bigs for that package. And the Suns never qualified for the playoffs when he was there.

You put Porter next to Gortat, in the playoffs, Porter gets backed down by bigger/star PFs until Gortat rotates to help, they pass to the center (which Gortat is too slow to recover to), dunk. Rinse repeat. And we have close to no post game, because the game slows down and Gortat doesn't get the whistle and can't create his own shot. We need better to win a championship. I'm trying to force management to make us better. That's my goal. Not to overrate what we have; find ourselves unable to win a championship and waste Wall's prime. My two cents.

This isn't 90s where we have to deal with Olajuwon, Shaq, Ewing, Robinson et all. Golden State just won a title with Andrew Bogut playing half the game or less; and used a mix of Draymond Green, Mareessee Speights & Festus Ezeli for goodness sakes.

The classic 7-0 low post option that commands double teams is not a requirement to be a contender and it's never been the only way to build a team.

So I'm not sure what your debating. I think we ALL know Gortat is not a franchise big. But he's solid, especially defensively. He was solid in the playoffs two years ago, he was solid this last season with the exception of game 6 when he had food poisoning and could barely move. The bigger issue is the lack of help at the 4.

[barelyawake]

Forgot that.

But my point still stands. A rebuilding team didn't have a need for a 30-year-old center on an expensive contract. It made sense to trade him. They got a pick in the teens, dumped two crap contracts, and set themselves up for big cap room.

And you couldn't get any of the top fifteen bigs for that package. And the Suns never qualified for the playoffs when he was there.

You put Porter next to Gortat, in the playoffs, Porter gets backed down by bigger/star PFs until Gortat rotates to help, they pass to the center (which Gortat is too slow to recover to), dunk. Rinse repeat. And we have close to no post game, because the game slows down and Gortat doesn't get the whistle and can't create his own shot. We need better to win a championship. I'm trying to force management to make us better. That's my goal. Not to overrate what we have; find ourselves unable to win a championship and waste Wall's prime. My two cents.

This isn't 90s where we have to deal with Olajuwon, Shaq, Ewing, Robinson et all. Golden State just won a title with Andrew Bogut playing half the game or less; and used a mix of Draymond Green, Mareessee Speights & Festus Ezeli for goodness sakes.

The classic 7-0 low post option that commands double teams is not a requirement to be a contender and it's never been the only way to build a team.

So I'm not sure what your debating. I think we ALL know Gortat is not a franchise big. But he's solid, especially defensively. He was solid in the playoffs two years ago, he was solid this last season with the exception of game 6 when he had food poisoning and could barely move. The bigger issue is the lack of help at the 4.

Well, if you go back in the thread that's exactly what we are debating -- whether we need a star big or whether Porter can handle the four next to Gortat.

And PS better low post players are coming. Golden State got lucky with timing.

[Dat2U]

And you couldn't get any of the top fifteen bigs for that package. And the Suns never qualified for the playoffs when he was there.

You put Porter next to Gortat, in the playoffs, Porter gets backed down by bigger/star PFs until Gortat rotates to help, they pass to the center (which Gortat is too slow to recover to), dunk. Rinse repeat. And we have close to no post game, because the game slows down and Gortat doesn't get the whistle and can't create his own shot. We need better to win a championship. I'm trying to force management to make us better. That's my goal. Not to overrate what we have; find ourselves unable to win a championship and waste Wall's prime. My two cents.

This isn't 90s where we have to deal with Olajuwon, Shaq, Ewing, Robinson et all. Golden State just won a title with Andrew Bogut playing half the game or less; and used a mix of Draymond Green, Mareessee Speights & Festus Ezeli for goodness sakes.

The classic 7-0 low post option that commands double teams is not a requirement to be a contender and it's never been the only way to build a team.

So I'm not sure what your debating. I think we ALL know Gortat is not a franchise big. But he's solid, especially defensively. He was solid in the playoffs two years ago, he was solid this last season with the exception of game 6 when he had food poisoning and could barely move. The bigger issue is the lack of help at the 4.

Well, if you go back in the thread that's exactly what we are debating -- whether we need a star big or whether Porter can handle the four next to Gortat.

Oh well i digress! LOL. I agree, Porter at the 4 is a complete non-starter. I think Gortat is fine at C & Porter is fine at the 3. Just need to fill that big hole in between the two.

[DCZards]

And you couldn't get any of the top fifteen bigs for that package. And the Suns never qualified for the playoffs when he was there.

You put Porter next to Gortat, in the playoffs, Porter gets backed down by bigger/star PFs until Gortat rotates to help, they pass to the center (which Gortat is too slow to recover to), dunk. Rinse repeat. And we have close to no post game, because the game slows down and Gortat doesn't get the whistle and can't create his own shot. We need better to win a championship. I'm trying to force management to make us better. That's my goal. Not to overrate what we have; find ourselves unable to win a championship and waste Wall's prime. My two cents.

We all want for the Zards to get better. But you just can't wish for these things to happen. Who's the center out there currently who is both better than Gortat and available? You got any names?

Well, had we done my plan and gotten Chandler for a year, we would be in the discussion for Aldridge (and we would have Tyler Ennis whoever he is). Currently, Cousins is mostly likely being traded.

So basically your answer is you don't have any names...just some "what ifs" that go back 2-3 years. Except, of course, for Cousins, a knucklehead that the Zards would have to give up the store (maybe even Wall) to obtain via trade.

[barelyawake]

lol ok Zards. My answer is any of the top bigs in the game, when they become available as Cousins probably is, we should make an offer for them. One that includes some combination of Porter, Beal, Gortat or picks. And we should be thinking that we need to make that move, rather than convincing ourselves that Porter and Gortat can win a championship. That has been the point of this discussion.

I'm done. Back to the seagulls and boat drinks.

[nate33]

lol ok Zards. My answer is any of the top bigs in the game, when they become available as Cousins probably is, we should make an offer for them. One that includes some combination of Porter, Beal, Gortat or picks. And we should be thinking that we need to make that move, rather than convincing ourselves that Porter and Gortat can win a championship. That has been the point of this discussion.

I'm done. Back to the seagulls and boat drinks.

I would definitely trade Gortat for an elite young big like Cousins. That doesn't mean Gortat is a stiff though. Gortat is easily a top 15 big in this league and probably in the top 10. Name me 10 bigs better. I'll get you started:

Cousins
M.Gasol
Howard
Chandler
Jordan
Horford
Gobert

That's about it. After that, it gets questionable. Maybe you can put P.Gasol and A.Drummond ahead of him. I'm struggling to think of anyone else. Whiteside maybe, but I think he's a bit overrated with a very small sample size of accomplishment. How good can he be if that Heat team couldn't make the playoffs? But even if you count him, that only bumps Gortat down to 11th.

[sfam]

I think Gortat is fine for this team. He rocks on P&R with Wall, and is a great finisher. He runs the floor well and clearly meshes well. A backup center would be nice, but really, Stretch 4 is what we need right now, not a new starting C.

[barelyawake]

Nate, by "big" I mean PF or center. My point continues to be you can't have two non-stars at the four and five, especially two who don't compliment each other as Porter and Gortat do not. And I think most here would agree.

I have no problem with Gortat playing with a star PF next to him, one who can defend his own man and can score inside and out -- especially one who demands a double team and can free up Gortat. That's not Porter. You are putting too much pressure on Gortat, and frankly Porter as well, to be what he is not (especially against the league's best when the games slow down and the stars are getting star calls).

Honestly, I don't know why this is a debate. I'd rather stop debating this.

[I_Like_Dirt]

And PS better low post players are coming. Golden State got lucky with timing.

Did they really get so lucky with timing? Have people forgotten how many titles Jordan and Pippen won while the NBA was loaded with great centers? The Warriors did have to make it past Anthony Davis, Gasol/Randolph and Dwight Howard just to make the finals. In that respect, the NBA works the same way now as it has always worked: it's how much talent a team can cram into their collective rotation. Sure, there's always going to be a little bit of luck involved, but that's true for every team.

[barelyawake]

I think Gortat is fine for this team. He rocks on P&R with Wall, and is a great finisher. He runs the floor well and clearly meshes well. A backup center would be nice, but really, Stretch 4 is what we need right now, not a new starting C.

The problem is his skills are more fit for the regular season than the playoffs. When the games slow down, the P&R tends to be less effective and ISO becomes more effective (and Gortat is neither good at creating his own shot, nor does he get the benefit of the refs doubt against the star bigs of the league).

But again, this discussion isn't about just Gortat. The debate is pairing Gortat with Porter.

Ok enough... Nate you can have the last word. Said my bit.

[barelyawake]

And PS better low post players are coming. Golden State got lucky with timing.

Did they really get so lucky with timing? Have people forgotten how many titles Jordan and Pippen won while the NBA was loaded with great centers? The Warriors did have to make it past Anthony Davis, Gasol/Randolph and Dwight Howard just to make the finals. In that respect, the NBA works the same way now as it has always worked: it's how much talent a team can cram into their collective rotation. Sure, there's always going to be a little bit of luck involved, but that's true for every team.

They didn't have to face a developed AD, nor a younger Duncan. More and better bigs are coming. And they didn't win those games playing small ball. They won the final series playing small ball against an injured Cavs team. It is my opinion that most years they would not win a title.

[I_Like_Dirt]

Is it your opinion that most years they would not win a title because they played small ball, or because they didn't have enough talent? Could a team with less talent than the Warriors but who didn't play small be more likely to win titles?

Personally, I don't really think so, because we saw the Warriors play a bunch of those teams and win en route to their title. So again, the reality is talent. How developed does Anthony Davis need to get? He just averaged 31/11/2/1/3 against the Warriors and got swept. The issue wasn't how developed Davis was, it was that the team around him was crap. If the Warriors go up against a team that include Davis, along with a couple other allstars, sure, they probably have their hands full, but there are 30 teams in the league now. You don't see teams like that anymore. And again, we haven't seen a title winning team with a dominant interior player for some time now.

[nate33]

Nate, by "big" I mean PF or center. My point continues to be you can't have two non-stars at the four and five, especially two who don't compliment each other as Porter and Gortat do not. And I think most here would agree.

I have no problem with Gortat playing with a star PF next to him, one who can defend his own man and can score inside and out -- especially one who demands a double team and can free up Gortat. That's not Porter. You are putting too much pressure on Gortat, and frankly Porter as well, to be what he is not (especially against the league's best when the games slow down and the stars are getting star calls).

Honestly, I don't know why this is a debate. I'd rather stop debating this.

I'll point out that both Finals teams this year lacked a star at PF or C.

[barelyawake]

Is it your opinion that most years they would not win a title because they played small ball, or because they didn't have enough talent? Could a team with less talent than the Warriors but who didn't play small be more likely to win titles?

Personally, I don't really think so, because we saw the Warriors play a bunch of those teams and win en route to their title. So again, the reality is talent. How developed does Anthony Davis need to get? He just averaged 31/11/2/1/3 against the Warriors and got swept. The issue wasn't how developed Davis was, it was that the team around him was crap. If the Warriors go up against a team that include Davis, along with a couple other allstars, sure, they probably have their hands full, but there are 30 teams in the league now. You don't see teams like that anymore. And again, we haven't seen a title winning team with a dominant interior player for some time now.

You don't consider a younger Duncan to have a dominant post game? I do. Ditto Dirk. Ditto a younger KG. And by developed, I also mean established. Davis will eventually have a team around him somewhere. As will Cousins. As will the other young bigs coming into the game. This year is a fluke. Durant was injured. LeBron wasn't with Bosh. LeBron wasn't with Love or Irving. Dirk and Duncan were too old. And there was a momentary window where the bigs in the league were either too undeveloped or weren't in winning situations. Btw, had we not signed Gortat and instead signed or traded for a star big, we would have been in the finals.

I do not believe basketball has fundamentally changed to the point people are claiming. A seven footer shooting within five feet of the basket is still the highest percentage shot, especially when they are getting calls and fouling the other team out.