The myth of the elite athlete?

[CatgutStitches]

All of this talk about us mortgaging our future and how we should have drafted Winslow instead of non-athletic Frank got me thinking...how import is being an elite athlete? Every year there are a number of guys that come out who everyone talks about being an elite athlete and how they can grow into something great. Well of this years best teams, how many have "elite athletes" guys that came out being lauded for their athleticism above all else.

GS- Barnes and Iggy are good athletes but Id hardly say the team hinges on them...GS is about spacing and defense, and Curry, Klay, Draymond and Bogut certainly arent great athletes.

CLV- Apart from LeBron, who has it all and is an anomaly, they do not have elite athletes. Kyrie is good, JR used to be elite but hes known for shooting now. Thompson is good but not elite, etc.

ATL- None that I can see in their main rotation. A lot of balance and shooting.

HOU- Has some elite athletes but none are really important. Howard used to be but hes been regressing the last few years. Josh Smith doesnt seem to be all that integral to the teams success. They have some energy bench guys with great athleticism, but they arent exactly what the team is built around and dont have a huge impact.

MEM- Vince Carter was 10 years ago....uh....Tony Allen? No.

LAC- Deandre and Blake, but both are bigs, no super athletic wings to speak of.

WAS- Wall of course, Porter and Beal are athletic but not incredibly so.

CHI- Rose used to be, Butler is a very good athlete, most of their wings are shooters.

I may be dim, but I see more Frank Kaminskys on these teams than I see Justise Winslows. There are very few uber athletic lottery picks on these rosters. The "elite athlete" wings are all laboring away on the lottery teams trying to figure out how to shoot. I dont work for the NBA, and Im not an expert, but it seems to me that very few athletes pan out very well, with a few exceptions of course. Seems to ME that bball IQ and shooting is more important in todays NBA than how high one can jump.

I guess we will see what happens in the future, but Id rather look at positives and be hopeful than jump ship when something doesnt jive with what everyone is saying.

[Flip Murray]

I think this all comes down to your definition of the word athlete.

[mrknowitall215]

Good thread substance 'CatgutStitches'. I think too many people get caught up in athleticism over actual basketball skills. The two players that went #1-2 in the MVP voting this year (Curry & Harden) were/are both considered unathletic

[yosemiteben]

Agreed good topic. Would be interested to hear some counter arguments.

[martymane]

I'm one of the few who liked the Frank pick from the very beginning... Here is a good write-up for those still questioning why we would take him over Winslow: http://baselinebuzz.com/2015/frank-kaminsky-and-the-2012-nba-draft/

I agree with you. I think it's hilarious people are up in arms for us taking arguably the best/most dominant player in all of college basketball last season who literally does a little bit of everything at 7 feet tall.

Then those same people complain when we don't resign our "athletic" big in Biz who hasn't caught a ball in 3 years and makes more boneheaded plays than he blocks shots/rebounds/contributes to the team. He was a project for 3 years and drafted in the lottery b/c of athleticism when there was a slew of better basketball players we could have taken that year.

People are complaining about rim protection and all this BS when it really hasn't been a problem the last few years. We are better on the wings now and have addressed our poor shooting, while also cutting the biggest cancer to the team which was Lance.

At the end of the day, Winslow will have the same problem MKG is still working on. Making people respect his jump shot... We didn't need a 3 inches shorter version of MKG. There was a reason Winslow fell to us b/c he isn't the superstar a lot of people are making him out to be. Please tell me how many 6'4 shooting guards with average jumpers are excelling in the NBA?

I'll wait...

[X Over]

I wanted to be the devils advocate and note down reasons why the original post was incorrect, however, it is 100% spot on. Spatial awareness, peripheral vision, timing and ability to read play are the traits that make an elite player elite. In MJ and LeBron's case they both had/have it all, but for the rest, it's hard to find someone who can make claim as being one of the best ever without these traits.

You have to be athletic, no doubt, but the level is what makes the difference. You cannot be a slob and expect to play at the highest level.

[predators]

GS - Isn't winning a championship without Iggy& Barnes. With the exception of Curry, their entire team is long as hell for their position which is a form of Athleticism IMO. They just happen to also be good basketball players.
Clev - LBJ is still the main reason they made finals.
Clips - Wings are the weak link to their team. If they had Iggy\Green instead of Barnes\Big Baby they'd probably be holding the O'Brien Trophy.
ATL - Teague, The German PG, Carrol, and Sefolosha are all pretty damn athletic. They also had no answer for LBJ in the playoffs.
Hou - Didn't really support your argument at all. No Howard no conference finals. He is still a top 5 athlete at his position.
Mem - Conley\Allen are pretty integral to their success. They also have a team full of long wing spans to make up for their lack of "athleticism". They also have one of the few centers in the league that is actually a good basketball player, and also not a bum on the defensive end.
Chi - Taj Gibson? Also without rose\Butler\thibs they'd be fighting for the 8th seed.

Also how do you ignore OKC.

I get your point though.

[CatgutStitches]

Your points are valid, and Im certainly not saying being athletic is a BAD thing, what Im more getting at is how many of these "high upside" or "project" super athletic guys actually end up developing into elite players?

Sure it happens, but not with much frequency. Seems to me the guys who actually know how to play basketball are more likely to overcome their non-athletic hurdles than the athletes are to learn to play basketball effectively.

Most of those athletes you listed bring more to the table than just athletisism and always have. Lets look at individual accolades and see how these guys fair.

Out of the 28 players on the All Star roster whos main marketable skill coming out in the draft was athletisism? My view personally is Wall, Griffin, Davis and Westbrook. There are a lot more guys on those teams that I wouldnt put in the top half of athletes at their positions but know how to play the game.

Lets look at our Hornets. Henderson was an elite athlete that never became much more than a "meh" player. Zeller, while still developing, is hardly elite and doesnt appear to have that kind of ceiling. Even MKG, while flashing elite defensive potential, is probably never going to be a world beater on the offensive end and he was the 2nd pick in the draft.

Just thought it was an interesting topic to bring up and discuss. Ive always fell in love with "upside" too, but I may be changing my toon after actually seeing who develops into what. Appreciate everyones interest, interested in hearing from others!

[Braggins]

Good post, although Winslow actually isn't really an elite athlete. He is a good athlete who is also a good basketball player. My only problem is that I worry that we have pushed things too far in one direction. We had too many athletes and not enough skilled players, but now I feel like we have too many unathletic players with overlapping skills and not enough athleticism. This is especially bad in our frontcourt. Al is as bad an athlete as you will find in the NBA and offers literally nothing outside of post scoring. Hawes is basically an older poor man's version of Kaminsky. Marvin is undersized and a bad athlete and isn't above average at anything. Zeller is our only big that can move and has remotely decent size. If Zeller goes down our frontcourt is toast.

[MKGsMotor]

This is all fairly interpretive. Zeller is an elite athlete by his combine numbers. But not really by how he playa. Harden is an elite athlete and skill player. While its possible to not be an elite athlete but a great player, like Larry bird, I think its better off to look for an elite athelete that has the tools to further grow their skills. Because there's a lower ceiling for skill players that are not the beast athletes. The draft is a crapshoot, but you want to increase your chances to get the best player possible.

[yosemiteben]

Good post, although Winslow actually isn't really an elite athlete.

[mrknowitall215]

This is all fairly interpretive. Zeller is an elite athlete by his combine numbers. But not really by how he playa. Harden is an elite athlete and skill player. While its possible to not be an elite athlete but a great player, like Larry bird, I think its better off to look for an elite athelete that has the tools to further grow their skills. Because there's a lower ceiling for skill players that are not the beast athletes. The draft is a crapshoot, but you want to increase your chances to get the best player possible.

I don't know if James Harden would qualify as an elite athlete. One of the knocks on him coming out of Arizona State was that he didn't have elite athleticism because he had somewhat of a old man's game

[JDR720]

i think "elite" is a very overused word. seems like just about everyone is elite at something.

I dont think Winslow is elite, he is a very good athlete but isn't elite.

definition of elite:

1 (often used with a plural verb) the choice or best of anything considered collectively, as of a group or class of persons.

guys like Westbrook, LeBron, prime D-Rose. those are elite athletes.

[Braggins]

Good post, although Winslow actually isn't really an elite athlete.

We might have slightly different interpretation of elite athlete. Winslow is a damn good athlete, but when I think elite athlete I think Lebron, Westbrook, Wall, etc. I consider Winslow to be on a similar level athletically as MKG, but I personally wouldn't call them elite. Just really good.