Discussing Other Teams' Moves Part 5

[Rafael122]

Joseph's contract is insane. Posters on the general board keep using the "well the cap is going to rise" as the justification to hand out these awful contracts. Carroll and Joseph are going to take up what...20% of the cap next season?

[willbcocks]

I think Thompson was custom built for that Cavs team. The one where there wasn't team cutting, or team ball movement, or team pick and rolling. There was just Lebron taking on the defense and either finding a shooter for a 3 or shooting himself. All thompson had to do on offense was crash the boards. Luckily for him, that's all he can do. Now maybe that's all he'll be asked or need to do in Cleveland's normal offense once they have all their players back, but I have a more difficult time imaging it. On defense, he's not anything special. If the Wizards had the chance to sign him, I wouldn't pay him anything near what Cleveland gave him--I'd offer something like 5/6 million to be a backup energy big, because that's all he would be to this team. He's either the perfect fit for that team, or he was the perfect fit for a playoffs and his payday will be regretted in the future.

[Kanyewest]

Clarkson is arguably as good or better than Beal.

My friend, that's going to end up on someone's signature at some point.

Clarkson is decent scorer and an embarrassingly bad defender who made his awful team 3 points worse when he was on the floor. He benefited from jacking up shots in perpetual garbage time against teams who didn't even bother to scout him. He shouldn't be mentioned in the same sentence as Bradley Beal who put up James Harden like numbers in two playoff series while absolutely swallowing DeRozan and Korver on defense.

Also, Beal is two years younger than Clarkson.

[payitforward]

Cory Joseph and the Toronto Raptors have agreed upon a four-year, $30 million deal. Joseph has a player option for Year 4.

Joseph was a first round pick by the San Antonio Spurs in 2011 out of Texas.

The Spurs rescinded their qualifying offer to Joseph to create cap space for LaMarcus Aldridge.

Joseph is a native of Canada.

That's pretty pricey for a backup PG

Indeed. I thought Joseph would be a good target as a low-cost under-the-radar signing by someone. I guess not. I'm not sure what to think of Toronto's offseason. I loved the Vasquez trade and the Biyombo signing, but I think they've way overpaid for Carroll and Joseph.

I like Joseph a lot. I think this and the Biyombo moves show that Ujiri is -- as usual -- a step ahead.

Agreed. Cory Joseph is very good, and they also took Delon Wright in the draft. They have their PG succession set up.

Did Ujiri pick up Luke Ridnour's option? If so, he may have in mind to deal Lowry, who has a lot of trade value.

Biyombo is a young Amir Johnson. Great pick up for them. They have a terrific young roster.

[LyricalRico]

Joseph's contract is insane. Posters on the general board keep using the "well the cap is going to rise" as the justification to hand out these awful contracts. Carroll and Joseph are going to take up what...20% of the cap next season?

Was just about to post the same. And it's not a knock on Joseph, he's got solid numbers for a backup PG:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/josepco01.html

But I don't care how high the cap goes, that kind of money for a backup PG will never be okay. And it's not like he can have a huge role because Lowry/Carroll/DeRozan all need their minutes.

[LyricalRico]

Agreed. Cory Joseph is very good, and they also took Delon Wright in the draft. They have their PG succession set up.

Did Ujiri pick up Luke Ridnour's option? If so, he may have in mind to deal Lowry, who has a lot of trade value.

A Lowry trade would make the Joseph deal look a lot better, assuming he doesn't regress in a larger role (some guys are better as low-usage supporting pieces). Dallas needs a starting PG, although I'm not sure what they have to offer.

[payitforward]

Clarkson is arguably as good or better than Beal.

My friend, that's going to end up on someone's signature at some point.

Clarkson is decent scorer and an embarrassingly bad defender who made his awful team 3 points worse when he was on the floor. He benefited from jacking up shots in perpetual garbage time against teams who didn't even bother to scout him. He shouldn't be mentioned in the same sentence as Bradley Beal who put up James Harden like numbers in two playoff series while absolutely swallowing DeRozan and Korver on defense.

Also, Beal is two years younger than Clarkson.

Ok, that's an overstatement from CCJ in some important sense, but he did say "arguably." And his statement reflects his justifiable frustration (which I share) that an asset as valuable as Clarkson was lost by Ernie for next to nothing.

I don't see a reason to follow suit by dinging Jordan Clarkson, who may not have Beal's high ceiling but is w/o doubt an outstanding prospect.

In fact, comparing the two guys' numbers this year, they were extremely close -- except that Clarkson's were better overall. The two guys score at almost exactly the same rate. Their ball possession stats are extremely close (boards/TOs/steals). Beal is a much better 3-point shooter, but Clarkson is a better 2-pt. shooter, gets to the line more often, and shoots a higher % from the line. His overall TS% was .53 to Beal's .52.

Nate, you refer to him as "an embarrassingly bad defender", citing his +/-, but do you have other evidence for that? I.e. it's easy to find good defenders who look bad on that stat; it's "dirty" because its significance can't be separated easily from the effect of the other players on the floor. I haven't seen him enough to make any judgement.

I'd sure like to have him on our team -- which doesn't mean that we'd have picked him had we not sold the pick. But it does reflect well on the Lakers' FO to have gotten him at #46 in the draft!

[dckingsfan]

So, who in the east has drastically improved themselves? I guess the Heat just from being healthy. I guess the Cavs since they will be used to playing with each other. The Bucks with depth. The Knicks - but maybe not enough to make the playoffs.

I see the east as still being somewhat weak compared to the West. What have I missed?

[Rafael122]

So, who in the east has drastically improved themselves? I guess the Heat just from being healthy. I guess the Cavs since they will be used to playing with each other. The Bucks with depth. The Knicks - but maybe not enough to make the playoffs.

I see the east as still being somewhat weak compared to the West. What have I missed?

Yeah unless Cleveland is fully healthy and the West team is absolutely exhausted from running through the gauntlet, I don't see how an East team will win it all next season. A lot of people and rightfully so are focusing on the Warriors or Spurs and even Dallas, but if OKC is healthy, they have a a legit chance at 70 wins.

[nate33]

So, who in the east has drastically improved themselves? I guess the Heat just from being healthy. I guess the Cavs since they will be used to playing with each other. The Bucks with depth. The Knicks - but maybe not enough to make the playoffs.

I see the east as still being somewhat weak compared to the West. What have I missed?

Yeah unless Cleveland is fully healthy and the West team is absolutely exhausted from running through the gauntlet, I don't see how an East team will win it all next season. A lot of people and rightfully so are focusing on the Warriors or Spurs and even Dallas, but if OKC is healthy, they have a a legit chance at 70 wins.

I'm not that optimistic about OKC. I really hate how that team is constructed. It's nothing but Ibaka and offensive-minded ball-dominators. Westbrook, Waiters and Kanter all on the same team as Durant is really just a poor utilization of resources. If Ibaka stays healthy, they have a chance, but if he doesn't, I don't think that team can defend well enough to get through the playoffs.

We'll have to see how well Billy Donovan can get Westbrook and Durant to buy into playing defense.

[dckingsfan]

So, who in the east has drastically improved themselves? I guess the Heat just from being healthy. I guess the Cavs since they will be used to playing with each other. The Bucks with depth. The Knicks - but maybe not enough to make the playoffs.

I see the east as still being somewhat weak compared to the West. What have I missed?

Yeah unless Cleveland is fully healthy and the West team is absolutely exhausted from running through the gauntlet, I don't see how an East team will win it all next season. A lot of people and rightfully so are focusing on the Warriors or Spurs and even Dallas, but if OKC is healthy, they have a a legit chance at 70 wins.

I'm not that optimistic about OKC. I really hate how that team is constructed. It's nothing but Ibaka and offensive-minded ball-dominators. Westbrook, Waiters and Kanter all on the same team as Durant is really just a poor utilization of resources. If Ibaka stays healthy, they have a chance, but if he doesn't, I don't think that team can defend well enough to get through the playoffs.

We'll have to see how well Billy Donovan can get Westbrook and Durant to buy into playing defense.

But no team in the east has made a terrific jump?

[Kanyewest]

My friend, that's going to end up on someone's signature at some point.

Clarkson is decent scorer and an embarrassingly bad defender who made his awful team 3 points worse when he was on the floor. He benefited from jacking up shots in perpetual garbage time against teams who didn't even bother to scout him. He shouldn't be mentioned in the same sentence as Bradley Beal who put up James Harden like numbers in two playoff series while absolutely swallowing DeRozan and Korver on defense.

Also, Beal is two years younger than Clarkson.

Ok, that's an overstatement from CCJ in some important sense, but he did say "arguably." And his statement reflects his justifiable frustration (which I share) that an asset as valuable as Clarkson was lost by Ernie for next to nothing.

I don't see a reason to follow suit by dinging Jordan Clarkson, who may not have Beal's high ceiling but is w/o doubt an outstanding prospect.

In fact, comparing the two guys' numbers this year, they were extremely close -- except that Clarkson's were better overall. The two guys score at almost exactly the same rate. Their ball possession stats are extremely close (boards/TOs/steals). Beal is a much better 3-point shooter, but Clarkson is a better 2-pt. shooter, gets to the line more often, and shoots a higher % from the line. His overall TS% was .53 to Beal's .52.

Nate, you refer to him as "an embarrassingly bad defender", citing his +/-, but do you have other evidence for that? I.e. it's easy to find good defenders who look bad on that stat; it's "dirty" because its significance can't be separated easily from the effect of the other players on the floor. I haven't seen him enough to make any judgement.

I'd sure like to have him on our team -- which doesn't mean that we'd have picked him had we not sold the pick. But it does reflect well on the Lakers' FO to have gotten him at #46 in the draft!

I would like to have him on the Wizards too, but I would rather have Beal.

[Rafael122]

Yeah unless Cleveland is fully healthy and the West team is absolutely exhausted from running through the gauntlet, I don't see how an East team will win it all next season. A lot of people and rightfully so are focusing on the Warriors or Spurs and even Dallas, but if OKC is healthy, they have a a legit chance at 70 wins.

I'm not that optimistic about OKC. I really hate how that team is constructed. It's nothing but Ibaka and offensive-minded ball-dominators. Westbrook, Waiters and Kanter all on the same team as Durant is really just a poor utilization of resources. If Ibaka stays healthy, they have a chance, but if he doesn't, I don't think that team can defend well enough to get through the playoffs.

We'll have to see how well Billy Donovan can get Westbrook and Durant to buy into playing defense.

But no team in the east has made a terrific jump?

I don't think so. Love and Irving have injury questions attached to them, Lebron will probably start to decline soon. I buy Milwaukee as a 48-50 win team, but looking at their roster, they have like 2 guys who can hit an outside shot. Every team has question marks, Cleveland is the defacto favorites b/c they have the best player in the world. I will say that Orlando improving, New York putting out a respectable team...the bottom of the East are no longer automatic wins.

[nate33]

Irving and Love will probably have their injuries, but with the depth that they have, I think they'll do a better job of managing those injuries. As long as at least one of Irving or Love are healthy in the playoffs, they should be better than they were last year, and last year, they crushed all the competition in the East.

Let's not forget how good Cleveland has been ever since the Mosgov/Smith/Shumpert acquisitions. They are without a peer in the East. The rest of us are battling for 2nd place.

[Induveca]

If the Cavs really do acquire Joe Johnson, that's going to be a frightening squad.

James
Irving
Johnson
Love
Mozgov

or alternatively.....

Irving
Shumpert
James
Johnson
Love

Either of those lineups would blow away traditional or "small ball" lineups IMO.

[nate33]

If the Cavs really do acquire Joe Johnson, that's going to be a frightening squad.

James
Irving
Johnson
Love
Mozgov

or alternatively.....

Irving
Shumpert
James
Johnson
Love

Either of those lineups would blow away opposing squads. Of course, health is an issue for any team.

I think they should start Shumpert and bring Johnson off the bench. Shumpert doesn't need the ball, which will allow Irving, Lebron and Love to get their touches. Johnson can be a primary option on the second unit (with at least one of the Big Three staggering their rotation to play with the 2nd unit as well). Basically, he would handle the JR Smith role, with more intelligence and less crazy.

[Induveca]

If the Cavs really do acquire Joe Johnson, that's going to be a frightening squad.

James
Irving
Johnson
Love
Mozgov

or alternatively.....

Irving
Shumpert
James
Johnson
Love

Either of those lineups would blow away opposing squads. Of course, health is an issue for any team.

I think they should start Shumpert and bring Johnson off the bench. Shumpert doesn't need the ball, which will allow Irving, Lebron and Love to get their touches. Johnson can be a primary option on the second unit (with at least one of the Big Three staggering their rotation to play with the 2nd unit as well). Basically, he would handle the JR Smith role, with more intelligence and less crazy.

I don't disagree, there are just so many lineups Blatt can throw out there. Thompson/Dellavadova/Jones make things very interesting as role players.

[dckingsfan]

I'm not that optimistic about OKC. I really hate how that team is constructed. It's nothing but Ibaka and offensive-minded ball-dominators. Westbrook, Waiters and Kanter all on the same team as Durant is really just a poor utilization of resources. If Ibaka stays healthy, they have a chance, but if he doesn't, I don't think that team can defend well enough to get through the playoffs.

We'll have to see how well Billy Donovan can get Westbrook and Durant to buy into playing defense.

But no team in the east has made a terrific jump?

I don't think so. Love and Irving have injury questions attached to them, Lebron will probably start to decline soon. I buy Milwaukee as a 48-50 win team, but looking at their roster, they have like 2 guys who can hit an outside shot. Every team has question marks, Cleveland is the defacto favorites b/c they have the best player in the world. I will say that Orlando improving, New York putting out a respectable team...the bottom of the East are no longer automatic wins.

So we should be respectable sans injuries running out - and then going for the Durant sweepstakes.
Wall/Sessions
Beal/Neal
Porter/Dudley
Humphries/Gooden
Gortat/Nene

[LyricalRico]

I'm not that optimistic about OKC. I really hate how that team is constructed. It's nothing but Ibaka and offensive-minded ball-dominators. Westbrook, Waiters and Kanter all on the same team as Durant is really just a poor utilization of resources. If Ibaka stays healthy, they have a chance, but if he doesn't, I don't think that team can defend well enough to get through the playoffs.

We'll have to see how well Billy Donovan can get Westbrook and Durant to buy into playing defense.

But no team in the east has made a terrific jump?

I don't think so. Love and Irving have injury questions attached to them, Lebron will probably start to decline soon. I buy Milwaukee as a 48-50 win team, but looking at their roster, they have like 2 guys who can hit an outside shot. Every team has question marks, Cleveland is the defacto favorites b/c they have the best player in the world. I will say that Orlando improving, New York putting out a respectable team...the bottom of the East are no longer automatic wins.

Agree. Cleveland is top dog. Assuming healthy, I'd probably put Miami as a semi-clear 2nd and 3-6 is some combo of WAS/ATL/CHI/MIL. Toronto will be worse, Brooklyn retained guys but didn't add anyone, and teams like DET/CHA/NYK did add guys but they are unproven at this point. Boston still has the assets to make a surprise move, but right now they haven't improved a ton either (aside from their in-house guys getting better) and their roster is uneven IMO.

I do think the entire conference is better from top to bottom. And the gap with the West may even have closed a bit after since LAC and POR will take steps back. Next season should be pretty good, might upgrade my cable to get NBATV again to see more games. Also hope TNT/ESPN have more variety and don't just show the same teams every week like they usually do.

[nate33]

I don't rank Miami as a "clear" #2. They're in the mix, but it's not a sure thing by any stretch. Wade is still playing on one leg, Whiteside has durability issues and a very short track record, Deng isn't really a good player anymore, and the rest of their bench is suspect. Who is going to play defense for them for the 2000 minutes that Whiteside isn't on the court?

I love Dragic though. And I really like Bosh too.