Suns Offseason Thread 3: Spurned for the Spurs

[DRK]

Len isnt untouchable. No one in the league is üntouchable" except for the obvious such as AD and Curry etc.


Value is relative. If Len is traded, we should be getting at least equal value for him, while also taking into account his potential.
There is a slim chance that someone would offer a package of similar value to us for Len, and a slim chance that we would move Len anyway. However we cannot rule out any possibility of trading Len and labelling him "Untouchable," because it's simply not true.

[DRK]

Ugh people acting as if 22 year old Len is a finished product. It's not even worth talking about

everyone just needs to shut up and wait till he like 25, then any criticism would be valid

There isnt even an argument here. Nobody has even stated that Sullinger for Len is a fair trade. TASTIC was just using it as an example of what he thinks MAY happen. Whether we like it or not, McD isnt taking our personal opinions into account when he makes deals.

Not that I think it'll happen anyway.

[bwgood77]

You keep repeating the same thing, the issue I have isn't that I think Len should be untouchable

The issue is that you or your **** projection of McD's mind or whatever would consider Sullinger being a viable return

Giving up on Len's great potential for Jared "I'm so **** fat and my back hurts so much that I can't get off the couch" Sullinger

That's the issue

Dude, calm down. I don't think McD would trade him for Sullinger either but there is ZERO need for you to say to someone that he wrote "the stupidest thing you've ever read" or "**** projection".

You can disagree with a little or A LOT more tact.

[Mr-Al]

Hold up - you'd be fine trading Kieff AND a pick for Sully? Despite all the issues you listed? We've got Kieff locked up on a deal that's HALF what Reggie Jackson is getting paid, we don't have to trade him anywhere, and certainly not for a guy who hasn't shown he's an upgrade over Kieff.

I'm curious what people think about Len's trade value is, because he CAN be traded. Regardless of whether you think he should, he could be traded at any point.

I was bullish on Robin Lopez early on as well, and he's turned out to be a pretty decent starting C.

I'm more optimistic with Len than I was with RoLo, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't trade him if the right deal came along.

Who does everyone hold in higher value out of these guys? Essentially if that team rung up and said 1 for 1, would you trade them RIGHT now for Len?

Bradley Beal
Rudy Gobert
Jusuf Nurkic
Jonas Valanciunas
Nikola Mirotic
Enes Kanter
Jared Sullinger
Andrew Wiggins
Nerlens Noel
Ben McLemore
Giannis Antetokounmpo
Jabari Parker

There's 11 guys who are 22 or under and Mirotic (23). The guys in bold, I WOULD trade Len for, straight up 1 for 1. The others I think have similar value - except Kanter is going to lose that when he gets cashed up, and Jonas is also overpaid as of now.

Whether the other team would isn't the question, I just want to know who people value Len around, compared to other 22 and under type guys.

I didn't list some obvious guys like Davis, Kyrie, Oladipo and Drummond...

You keep repeating the same thing, the issue I have isn't that I think Len should be untouchable

The issue is that you or your **** projection of McD's mind or whatever would consider Sullinger being a viable return

Giving up on Len's great potential for Jared "I'm so **** fat and my back hurts so much that I can't get off the couch" Sullinger

That's the issue

People can have more than one point, so quit dancing round my question cos I want to know what YOU think Len's value is. You've said he's "such a naturally talented, long, and agile 7'1" player", so how high do you value that?

I've shown where I think he rates, now enlighten me with yours please...

And come on - you're telling me Ainge rings McD and says 'Sullinger and 3x 1sts, you pick which ones' - you'd say no? He apparently offered 6x 1sts for Kaminsky!!

You're damn straight I would say no.


Rudy Gobert
Andrew Wiggins
Giannis Antetokounmpo
Jabari Parker

Those are the guys I value more than Len out of that first group

Many of the listed players offer more current on court production, but players with Len's youth, length, agility, and two way potential are ridiculously rare. You'd be a fool to not wait that out and see if he reaches his ceiling

What's Jared Sullinger's ceiling imagining that his numerous red flags don't exist? Maybe a Rich man's Kieff with better rebounding

That doesn't even scrape what Len could be when he's 25 or 26

Chandler was just an attempt at LMA, now he maybe scrapes together a couple more wins to get us to the 8th seed

Trade Len and congratulations, you've just traded away the future. I can't believe we're even wasting time talking about this

[Mr-Al]

You keep repeating the same thing, the issue I have isn't that I think Len should be untouchable

The issue is that you or your **** projection of McD's mind or whatever would consider Sullinger being a viable return

Giving up on Len's great potential for Jared "I'm so **** fat and my back hurts so much that I can't get off the couch" Sullinger

That's the issue

Dude, calm down. I don't think McD would trade him for Sullinger either but there is ZERO need for you to say to someone that he wrote "the stupidest thing you've ever read" or "**** projection".

You can disagree with a little or A LOT more tact.

Sorry dude. It just grinded my gears

[carey]

And come on - you're telling me Ainge rings McD and says 'Sullinger and 3x 1sts, you pick which ones' - you'd say no? He apparently offered 6x 1sts for Kaminsky!!

It's because none of the picks are any good. You'd trade Len for 3 mid-round 1sts? Those are generally fringe starters or 6th man types. Very rarely can you land a star there.

[Mr-Al]

And come on - you're telling me Ainge rings McD and says 'Sullinger and 3x 1sts, you pick which ones' - you'd say no? He apparently offered 6x 1sts for Kaminsky!!

It's because none of the picks are any good. You'd trade Len for 3 mid-round 1sts? Those are generally fringe starters or 6th man types. Very rarely can you land a star there.

Yeah that deal was overhyped, apparently it was for Winslow actually. It was probably Sullinger and those mediocre picks

Apparently if Charlotte thought that deal wasn't good enough for Kaminsky, it's a good enough deal for the Suns to trade Len according to Tastic

[TASTIC]

And come on - you're telling me Ainge rings McD and says 'Sullinger and 3x 1sts, you pick which ones' - you'd say no? He apparently offered 6x 1sts for Kaminsky!!

It's because none of the picks are any good. You'd trade Len for 3 mid-round 1sts? Those are generally fringe starters or 6th man types. Very rarely can you land a star there.

If Ainge rung us and said 'here, choose 3x 1st rounders and take Sullinger, we want Len' - then yeah, call me crazy I take the 23yr old 13/7 guy and three 1sts...

[Barkley6]

Are we seeing a different player when we watch Alex Len? Because to ask some people on this board, he's the second coming of Hakeem Olajuwon.

Right now, what I see is that he's a 6 and 6 player who is wildly inconsistent and injury prone. For me, he's running out of time and excuses to put it together, and I think the management feels the same way as signaled by signing Tyson Chandler.

I just don't get why people think Len is SO damn good. In his second year in the league Jake Tsakilidis averaged 7.3 and 5.6 in similar minutes to Len. So, why are we all over someone who hasn't even definitively proven himself to be better than Big Jake?

[TASTIC]

And come on - you're telling me Ainge rings McD and says 'Sullinger and 3x 1sts, you pick which ones' - you'd say no? He apparently offered 6x 1sts for Kaminsky!!

It's because none of the picks are any good. You'd trade Len for 3 mid-round 1sts? Those are generally fringe starters or 6th man types. Very rarely can you land a star there.

Yeah that deal was overhyped, apparently it was for Winslow actually. It was probably Sullinger and those mediocre picks

Apparently if Charlotte thought that deal wasn't good enough for Kaminsky, it's a good enough deal for the Suns to trade Len according to Tastic

Mate people are allowed other opinions than you - this is a forum, i.e. people come here to have an opinion without getting called names and being sworn at.

No need for that stuff, this isn't a me vs you thing - I'm keen to hear what others think as well regarding Len's value.

I think if you started a thread on the trade board about Len's value, one of the best options would be something like Sullinger + multiple 1sts. Of course that's IF Boston fans think they'd even do it, which I doubt, because every team's fans value their own prospects higher, not just the Suns.

[Barkley6]

And come on - you're telling me Ainge rings McD and says 'Sullinger and 3x 1sts, you pick which ones' - you'd say no? He apparently offered 6x 1sts for Kaminsky!!

It's because none of the picks are any good. You'd trade Len for 3 mid-round 1sts? Those are generally fringe starters or 6th man types. Very rarely can you land a star there.

Think about what you just said. Alex Len. ONE player, for three fringe starters/6th man types? So, you're telling me I can get three rotation guys for one guy who, btw, is a fringe starter himself? DONE. AND DONE. Oh wait, AND I get a player in the deal who is also a rotation player? So I get four rotation players for one? Where do I sign? Am I dreaming? Is this real life?

[jcsunsfan]

OK. Before anyone considers trading Len. Watch this. Notice the jumper. Len is unstoppable, he just doesn't know it yet.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6i22QtHWRU

[rsavaj]

While you guys are arguing about Len, I'm sitting here wishing Yuta Tabuse was still our backup PG. Couldn't finish amongst the trees, couldn't shoot over anybody because of his height, but he was quick, he could pass, and he was pesky. He was the Japanese Ish Smith.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d1TMsAmdD6g[/youtube]

[carey]

While you guys are arguing about Len, I'm sitting here wishing Yuta Tabuse was still our backup PG. Couldn't finish amongst the trees, couldn't shoot over anybody because of his height, but he was quick, he could pass, and he was pesky. He was the Japanese Ish Smith.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d1TMsAmdD6g[/youtube]

Lol.

[krishanson]

As much as I like Len, there's not a huge precedent for centers to magically become substantially better in their 3rd or 4th year. He'll probably never be the 2nd or maybe even 3rd best player on a playoff team and I doubt he ever develops an offensive game.

He has the potential to be a starter on a good team but I'd be shocked if he ever averages more than 12 points a game, even if he plays 30-35 minutes.

But I do agree, trading Len for additional assets seems silly. He's still a great backup C and is already a nice asset to have on the roster.

[jcsunsfan]

As much as I like Len, there's not a huge precedent for centers to magically become substantially better in their 3rd or 4th year. He'll probably never be the 2nd or maybe even 3rd best player on a playoff team and I doubt he ever develops an offensive game.

He has the potential to be a starter on a good team but I'd be shocked if he ever averages more than 12 points a game, even if he plays 30-35 minutes.

But I do agree, trading Len for additional assets seems silly. He's still a great backup C and is already a nice asset to have on the roster.

Um. You are wrong on all levels. Centers usually do not really develop until age 25 or so. His offensive potential is through the roof.

[JMac1]

And come on - you're telling me Ainge rings McD and says 'Sullinger and 3x 1sts, you pick which ones' - you'd say no? He apparently offered 6x 1sts for Kaminsky!!

It's because none of the picks are any good. You'd trade Len for 3 mid-round 1sts? Those are generally fringe starters or 6th man types. Very rarely can you land a star there.

If Ainge rung us and said 'here, choose 3x 1st rounders and take Sullinger, we want Len' - then yeah, call me crazy I take the 23yr old 13/7 guy and three 1sts...

Insane.... We already complain about having "earned" these picks year after year and you want more?

[WTFsunsFTW]

As much as I like Len, there's not a huge precedent for centers to magically become substantially better in their 3rd or 4th year. He'll probably never be the 2nd or maybe even 3rd best player on a playoff team and I doubt he ever develops an offensive game.

He has the potential to be a starter on a good team but I'd be shocked if he ever averages more than 12 points a game, even if he plays 30-35 minutes.

But I do agree, trading Len for additional assets seems silly. He's still a great backup C and is already a nice asset to have on the roster.

Gonna save this quote for 2 years from now when he is an AllStar

[JMac1]

Are we seeing a different player when we watch Alex Len? Because to ask some people on this board, he's the second coming of Hakeem Olajuwon.

Right now, what I see is that he's a 6 and 6 player who is wildly inconsistent and injury prone. For me, he's running out of time and excuses to put it together, and I think the management feels the same way as signaled by signing Tyson Chandler.

I just don't get why people think Len is SO damn good. In his second year in the league Jake Tsakilidis averaged 7.3 and 5.6 in similar minutes to Len. So, why are we all over someone who hasn't even definitively proven himself to be better than Big Jake?

Because when healthy and given the ball on offense (the very few times) he looks very good. He has displayed the penchant to have a good jump shot and finish. He is 7'1 with a 7'4 wing span. He is only 22 years old. He is mobile. He has all of the tools to be good. He doesn't need to be Hakeem. He needs to play defense and shoot 55 percent from the floor; and he has shown he can do that at 21 years old.

He is a foundational building block. He had some fluke injuries that had nothing to do with his old Maryland injury. We are trying to build a team, but people here keep playing musical chairs with everyone that is not an Anthony Davis type. Len is a solid C/PF moving forward, lets focus on another position.

You guys kill me with the over reaction..........acting just like women. Women panic, men don't!!

[krishanson]

Um. You are wrong on all levels. Centers usually do not really develop until age 25 or so. His offensive potential is through the roof.

Other than Hussein Whiteside miraculously developing this year, can you name a single player that went on to make an All-Star team that averaged 2ppg/2.4rbs in their rookie year, then went on to average 6.3ppg/6.6rbs in their second year? Or what about a guy that had a PER of 13.5 in their second year?

I spent a while looking this up a while ago. There's absolutely no precedent that centers develop by age 25. Every great center in the NBA right now had really nice rookie seasons and were nearly dominate by their second season. And a lot of mediocre centers in the NBA had much better centers than Len had in his second season.

If you can find another player in NBA history that started as slow as Len and then went on to be a great player, I'd love to know his name.