PC Board OT thread

[bondom34]

And what really sucks is how many other guys it works on too. Would Lopez be signing in NY? Hibbert traded to LA? Heck Kanter may have gotten an offer from someone even.

Considering NY got RoLo to agree with an understanding that he'd be signed only if they missed out on DJ and LA made that trade before DJ picked I'd say chances are both still go through.

Yeah, RoLo I think may have stayed, but rumor was Dallas was possibly trading for Hibbert, which would make some sense b/c they could sign and trade Monta then as well. Dunno though I forgot about the timing of it all.

[E-Balla]

And what really sucks is how many other guys it works on too. Would Lopez be signing in NY? Hibbert traded to LA? Heck Kanter may have gotten an offer from someone even.

Considering NY got RoLo to agree with an understanding that he'd be signed only if they missed out on DJ and LA made that trade before DJ picked I'd say chances are both still go through.

Yeah, RoLo I think may have stayed, but rumor was Dallas was possibly trading for Hibbert, which would make some sense b/c they could sign and trade Monta then as well. Dunno though I forgot about the timing of it all.

If true that's major. I remember the Hibbert trade being announced shortly before the DJ signing so maybe they made the trade after already knowing before the public found out.

[bondom34]

Considering NY got RoLo to agree with an understanding that he'd be signed only if they missed out on DJ and LA made that trade before DJ picked I'd say chances are both still go through.

Yeah, RoLo I think may have stayed, but rumor was Dallas was possibly trading for Hibbert, which would make some sense b/c they could sign and trade Monta then as well. Dunno though I forgot about the timing of it all.

If true that's major. I remember the Hibbert trade being announced shortly before the DJ signing so maybe they made the trade after already knowing before the public found out.

Just checked and the Hibbert news came out on the 4th, so not sure when DJ was, but it was around the same time.

[Doctor MJ]

Now see Doc, this is bush-league free agency stuff:

[tweet]https://twitter.com/ESPNSteinLine/status/618818662523387904[/tweet]

Funny how all this happened since our last exchanges.

My take in general here:

The DeAndre stuff doesn't actually bother me as much because the answer is pretty clear: DeAndre isn't really an adult. You've probably seen me say it before: I don't think he was anywhere near a DPOY or All-D level player this year because his defense consists of striving for individual numbers (blocks and rebounds). Guys who do that are guys who aren't smart enough to understand how the game of basketball actually works. My disrespect for his game also mean I have more patience for him here. The wavering we see where he picks one team and then picks another, and is too afraid to call Cuban himself. This isn't some master plan. This isn't someone getting off on attention, this is just some kid who doesn't know how to think things through.

And I understand that he's 26 and that's well above the age of consent and responsibility. I certainly would have held myself to higher standards than this, but to me this is just what you're going to get sometimes when you're betting hundreds of millions of dollars on making guys happy who their entirely life have been allowed to simply focus on their body and not not their mind.

To be clear: I'm not saying with my lack of outrage here that I respect DeAndre higher than LaMarcus. I have vastly more respect for LaMarcus, and that's the things I've seen lately bother me. He seems immature and not very self-aware relative to his mental capabilities. There's nothing "relative" about DeAndre here. He really is "bush-league" in the sense that mentally he's a guppy in a room full of sharks.

I'll also add: People are drawing comparisons to Carlos Boozer. It's not at all the same thing. Back then the Cavs had Boozer under contract and asked him straight out: "Look, if you get hurt right now, you're never going to be rich. We'd be willing to let you out of this deal if you promise to sign this new deal which will make you very rich." Boozer said yes and then signed with another team instead. That's not's a mistake of the moment. Boozer knew going into the meeting with Utah that even talking to them went against what he'd already promised. He just didn't care.

So that outraged me considerably more than DeAndre or LaMarcus. If we characterized these guys as birds, Boozer's a vulture, Aldridge may be a peacock, and DeAndre is a turkey.

Still - I really feel bad for Mav fans. It just plain sucks.

[Doctor MJ]

Reading on Twitter that he's pretty much going back to the Clips at this point.

Hopefully this changes the whole "moratorium" on new signings rule.

THIS. Exactly this.

[PaulieWal]

Yeah, RoLo I think may have stayed, but rumor was Dallas was possibly trading for Hibbert, which would make some sense b/c they could sign and trade Monta then as well. Dunno though I forgot about the timing of it all.

If true that's major. I remember the Hibbert trade being announced shortly before the DJ signing so maybe they made the trade after already knowing before the public found out.

Just checked and the Hibbert news came out on the 4th, so not sure when DJ was, but it was around the same time.

Also, for a while there were rumors of Dallas helping Clippers get Hibbert. The point is that the Pacers wanted to get rid of Hibbert at any cost and an Ellis S&T would have been helpful for both parties.

I still can't believe that he didn't have the balls to text or call Cuban and tell him he's out lol. Just amazing.

[Doctor MJ]

my guess is the 2nd meeting with the Lakers was probably a favor to his agent--especially in light of the reports that got out about LMA hating the Lakers' presentation. His agent is going to have to work with the Lakers in the future and probably wanted to keep that relationship in a good place.

I think people really underestimate just how much influence these agents have. I mean we might as well call Dallas the Fegans instead of the Mavericks for instance. I could easily see LMA giving the Lakers a 2nd meeting as a favor to his agent. I mean he met with several teams I don't think he was ever seriously considering--again including my Mavs. I don't think poorly of him for it. Just like I didn't with Dwight or Melo or Deron or any of the big-time FA's we struck out on.

Regardless of whether Jordan signs with Dallas or re-signs with Los Angeles the actions of the last few hours have proven you correct that Jordan’s agent was pushing him hard to sign with Dallas.

Agents perform a vital service as most athletes are similar to most people in being god awful negotiators. Agents still should act on their client’s desires if it disagrees with what the agent perceives to be in their best interest. They should urge them to reconsider if their goal is illogical but it is the player’s decision in the end.

In this case it appears Fagan was determined to get Jordan in Dallas regardless of whether Deandre wanted to go there in the first place.

Los Angeles remains a legitimate contender if they can get him to return. Los Angeles not making the CF the last few years is mainly a product of them getting brutally unlucky in their post-season draw. I ran the number on this a while ago and no team in NBA history has been more unlucky with regards to caliber of teams they face in the first few rounds after taking into account regular season performance. Despite this they have not been decisively outplayed in any series over the last two years and knocked out the team that won the title the year before and the title the year after.

This club could win a title with Deandre. It is a shame they get labeled pretenders due to the lopsided conferences. It reminds of when people would sleep on Dallas for most of the last decade.

I find this very interesting and perhaps quite insightful. What you say makes sense, but I don't feel confident enough to say it myself at this point, so if you could elaborate I'd appreciate that.

But what I'll say is: Your answer answers the obvious question of "Why didn't DeAndre sleep on it if he wasn't 100% sure?" The agent should be PUSHING for their clients to do that in these situations if they actually care about their clients making the right decisions for themselves.

I can't know that the agent didn't do exactly that, but I would expect that a player like DeAndre would sleep on it in a situation like this, not simply because it's wise, but because it emphasizes his importance and how lucky teams are to get him.

[E-Balla]

Now see Doc, this is bush-league free agency stuff:

[tweet]https://twitter.com/ESPNSteinLine/status/618818662523387904[/tweet]

Funny how all this happened since our last exchanges.

My take in general here:

The DeAndre stuff doesn't actually bother me as much because the answer is pretty clear: DeAndre isn't really an adult. You've probably seen me say it before: I don't think he was anywhere near a DPOY or All-D level player this year because his defense consists of striving for individual numbers (blocks and rebounds). Guys who do that are guys who aren't smart enough to understand how the game of basketball actually works. My disrespect for his game also mean I have more patience for him here. The wavering we see where he picks one team and then picks another, and is too afraid to call Cuban himself. This isn't some master plan. This isn't someone getting off on attention, this is just some kid who doesn't know how to think things through.

And I understand that he's 26 and that's well above the age of consent and responsibility. I certainly would have held myself to higher standards than this, but to me this is just what you're going to get sometimes when you're betting hundreds of millions of dollars on making guys happy who their entirely life have been allowed to simply focus on their body and not not their mind.

To be clear: I'm not saying with my lack of outrage here that I respect DeAndre higher than LaMarcus. I have vastly more respect for LaMarcus, and that's the things I've seen lately bother me. He seems immature and not very self-aware relative to his mental capabilities. There's nothing "relative" about DeAndre here. He really is "bush-league" in the sense that mentally he's a guppy in a room full of sharks.

I'll also add: People are drawing comparisons to Carlos Boozer. It's not at all the same thing. Back then the Cavs had Boozer under contract and asked him straight out: "Look, if you get hurt right now, you're never going to be rich. We'd be willing to let you out of this deal if you promise to sign this new deal which will make you very rich." Boozer said yes and then signed with another team instead. That's not's a mistake of the moment. Boozer knew going into the meeting with Utah that even talking to them went against what he'd already promised. He just didn't care.

So that outraged me considerably more than DeAndre or LaMarcus. If we characterized these guys as birds, Boozer's a vulture, Aldridge may be a peacock, and DeAndre is a turkey.

Still - I really feel bad for Mav fans. It just plain sucks.

[Doctor MJ]

I am not sure why this grown man comment means Jordan is doing something dishonorable here. Reversing decisions based on further contemplation is a regular part of adulthood. I think all of us have done that since reaching legal age and will continue to do so in the future.

The idea that one's handshake means something isn't actually supposed to be just about honesty, it's supposed to say something about a man knowing his own mind. And in a case like this, other people are making huge decisions based entirely on the assumption that you mean what you say. So yeah, it's a huge problem.

Also, just to emphasize, for the most part when those of us in this room make decisions, the ramifications are probably a lot smaller. Most people don't have the ability to make decisions that will cause billion dollar organizations to totally change their strategy. So DeAndre's handshake not meaning what it's supposed to mean now has huge consequences to many other people who he had no intention to mislead. He SHOULD feel bad about that.

But on the other hand as I said in other posts: The mistake was probably about as honest as you could get, and precisely the type of mistake that the NBA has to recognize will happen when so much power goes to people for reasons other than their brains. It's fine for Cuban to be mad right now, but on the whole owner should be shaking their head at their collective stupidity for now doing more to keep this type of thing from happening.

[E-Balla]

Now that I got that out my system I'll say Booz is 100% worse than both of them. He actually deceived them into declining his option which they were doing to help him out. Brand is also worse since he supposedly opted out to help LA get some help, personally called Baron Davis to convince him to sign in LA, and left them the second Philly got some cap space.

Still there's something to be said when he hasn't answered any of Cuban's calls and texts in days.

[Doctor MJ]

Yep, I like Paulie's analogy to taking one job and backing out. I went to the trade board and missed the convo here now.

Something I'll add here is that this type of stuff is something I've thought a lot about when I've switched jobs, and that a move quite like this proved key in my dad's career - the place he went to thrive and saw him rise up quickly, the place he went back on his word on went out of business, and his thoughts about these possibilities were key to why he sacrificed his integrity for it, and why he still felt bad about it decades later even though it was the right move.

I don't feel completely right about my track record dealing with past employers, and this comes despite the fact that I agonized over decisions from multiple perspectives before I made them, and I've made it a point to tell people face to face whenever I had disappointing news. So yeah, to me, if you're 100% doing things right, it's a very high standard, and hiding behind legal rights as if legality and ethics were the same thing is something done either out of poor ethics or poor something else.

[Doctor MJ]

On another note

What about Gentry wanting to get davis to shoot more threes.

Is that " Smallball fool gonna ruin the next great big man" ?

Or like me are you less than worried about it?

I'm not worried. To me a young talent like Davis needs to explore his gifts and only then will he and his coach settle on the optimal attack. I'd be more worried if Gentry said "Davis is a dominant big man, those belong by the rim." because it would make clear he didn't understand that those rules exist for lesser talents who are being slotted into systems, whereas a guy like Davis needs to come first before the system.

[bondom34]

Yep, I like Paulie's analogy to taking one job and backing out. I went to the trade board and missed the convo here now.

Something I'll add here is that this type of stuff is something I've thought a lot about when I've switched jobs, and that a move quite like this proved key in my dad's career - the place he went to thrive and saw him rise up quickly, the place he went back on his word on went out of business, and his thoughts about these possibilities were key to why he sacrificed his integrity for it, and why he still felt bad about it decades later even though it was the right move.

I don't feel completely right about my track record dealing with past employers, and this comes despite the fact that I agonized over decisions from multiple perspectives before I made them, and I've made it a point to tell people face to face whenever I had disappointing news. So yeah, to me, if you're 100% doing things right, it's a very high standard, and hiding behind legal rights as if legality and ethics were the same thing is something done either out of poor ethics or poor something else.

Yeah, I've never switched jobs quite like this, always was with notice, but had a situation like this happen at my current job a few months ago. A person started then 2 days in just emailed and didn't show up. Needless to say its a big black mark on your resume, where DJ isn't getting that at all.

[Doctor MJ]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/ramonashelburne/status/618939738930724864[/tweet]
[tweet]https://twitter.com/ESPNSteinLine/status/618941220182560769[/tweet]
Story is bordering on bizarre.

This furthers my "grown man" comment about DJ. What in the world is this lol?

He really is a child in a man's body. If he wants to meet with Dallas then he should meet with them or simply call Cuban and tell him to leave him alone.

[tweet]https://twitter.com/espn_macmahon/status/618952484912939008[/tweet]

This is just too much. Have 0 respect for DJ right now not that it matters one iota to him.

The sad thing is that it probably does matter to him. What we're seeing here isn't happening simply because other people are smarter than him, it's happening because he cares a lot what people think. He very clearly wants to be a loved superstar...

And now he never will be. He's going to be hated everywhere outside of LA, and even in LA, we're going to pat him on the head and say "Good job!" every 5 seconds while he eventually realizes he's being looked down on. Choosing the Clippers over the Mavs may or may not have been the best thing for him, but choosing the Clippers like THIS is far, far worse than if he'd just signed with them at the start.

I'll also add that if he had come to Dallas, I'd expect endorsements to follow at the very least locally.

Now were I such a company, I wouldn't touch him with a 10 foot pole.

[Doctor MJ]

This is seriously the most awesome thing to ever happen in NBA free agency. I mean hiding in your house?

It's definitely surreal. Seems like it should be on a TV show.

[PaulieWal]

Yep, I like Paulie's analogy to taking one job and backing out. I went to the trade board and missed the convo here now.

Something I'll add here is that this type of stuff is something I've thought a lot about when I've switched jobs, and that a move quite like this proved key in my dad's career - the place he went to thrive and saw him rise up quickly, the place he went back on his word on went out of business, and his thoughts about these possibilities were key to why he sacrificed his integrity for it, and why he still felt bad about it decades later even though it was the right move.

I don't feel completely right about my track record dealing with past employers, and this comes despite the fact that I agonized over decisions from multiple perspectives before I made them, and I've made it a point to tell people face to face whenever I had disappointing news. So yeah, to me, if you're 100% doing things right, it's a very high standard, and hiding behind legal rights as if legality and ethics were the same thing is something done either out of poor ethics or poor something else.

Yeah, I've never switched jobs quite like this, always was with notice, but had a situation like this happen at my current job a few months ago. A person started then 2 days in just emailed and didn't show up. Needless to say its a big black mark on your resume, where DJ isn't getting that at all.

Agreed. And sometimes different companies will have different standards for reference checks. Some require you to give any previous managers or some will specifically will ask you to give a reference from your last job which can be problematic if you act like DJ.

Professionally this is a pretty unacceptable practice. What really surprises me is that not even Doc or CP told him to simply call Cuban and tell him he's back to LA. You would think of all the Clips' people there CP and Doc would have a sense of professionalism. And then you have Blake tweeting those troll pics which is fine as a joke but the President of the Players' Union and a well-respected coach can't even tell him to end the drama. I am pretty sure if DJ simply told Cuban he's out the whole saga would have ended right there and then.

[Doctor MJ]

So Doc MJ how you feeling about DeAndre?

Funny hitting all this after the conversation happened. Clearly you can read my posts to see what I think.

Clearly also I think, it's not what people expected. So am I biased? I'll be interested to see what people say.

[Doctor MJ]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/blakegriffin32/status/618960135050825729[/tweet]

Sigh. Blake is pretty smart, and he's hilarious, but I wish he'd think through some of his things a bit more before he made them public. DeAndre probably laughs at this joke right along with everyone else, but DeAndre also doesn't fully understand what he's going to face going forward. It won't be pretty, and jokes like this from his best friend don't help.

[PaulieWal]

The sad thing is that it probably does matter to him. What we're seeing here isn't happening simply because other people are smarter than him, it's happening because he cares a lot what people think. He very clearly wants to be a loved superstar...

And now he never will be. He's going to be hated everywhere outside of LA, and even in LA, we're going to pat him on the head and say "Good job!" every 5 seconds while he eventually realizes he's being looked down on. Choosing the Clippers over the Mavs may or may not have been the best thing for him, but choosing the Clippers like THIS is far, far worse than if he'd just signed with them at the start.

I'll also add that if he had come to Dallas, I'd expect endorsements to follow at the very least locally.

Now were I such a company, I wouldn't touch him with a 10 foot pole.

Yup, this is an example where playing in the NBA is a much better deal than working in the "real world". Most of us working can't afford to piss off companies like this or risk getting a reputation for being this flip-floppy. In DJ's case if his game ages well (which I have my doubts about) he will teams lining up again to buy his services in 3 or 4 years.

[Doctor MJ]

Even if you disliked the joke there was nothing mean spirited about it at all.

It's not so simple. Things rarely are.

For me it was actually not simply a good joke, but an excellent one. The problem is in how the joke lands on DeAndre. Granted it's just one more thing landing on DeAndre - else the joke wouldn't work - but things are going to be rough for DeAndre in ways he doesn't realize, and if Griffin put as much effort into thinking about others' emotions as he does into being funny, he'd realize this too.