OKC Thunder Offseason 2015

[bondom34]

But again, that same poor franchise with a bad system had no problem as soon as he left. And you just listed the Grizzlies who were a bad franchise getting Z Bo and the Mavs who were a terrible franchise then getting Dirk.

You mean that 20 game stretch?
The same 20 game stretch we see crap teams do well in every single year?

Didnt we have this conversation about the Raptors two seasons ago?
"Oh, the raptors were best in the NBA offensively and defenseively post AS break... you cant say they are just a 1 and done PO team, thats stupid".

Come on.
We see this every year from bad teams. The last 20 games of the schedule they do well, why? Who knows? Teams are settling in to play off positions? Resting players? POs are mostly set? Numerous reasons. But its literally something we see every single year and "for some reason" that success never translates to an 82 game season.

Oh, and i listed the Grizzlies who became contenders because of ZBo and the Mavs, who won a title with one ofthe worst defenders in the game.

Again, the Grizzlies didn't become contenders b/c of that, they did because they got a great deal out of Gasol and some solid guards who could defend around ZBo. And you're again saying we can't take any negative information from 20 games, but the same games show us all the positives. You have to look at both and in the end a guy who's at best marginally better than Adams being paid 17 mil is insane. I'm sure they match, and I'll talk myself into it, but for right now it isn't too sensible.

[Bravenewworld]

Again, the Grizzlies didn't become contenders b/c of that, they did because they got a great deal out of Gasol and some solid guards who could defend around ZBo. And you're again saying we can't take any negative information from 20 games, but the same games show us all the positives. You have to look at both and in the end a guy who's at best marginally better than Adams being paid 17 mil is insane. I'm sure they match, and I'll talk myself into it, but for right now it isn't too sensible.

ZBo was the Grizzlies most productive player.. im not saying he was the sole reason for contention, but he was obviously top 2 in roles. But again, you want to glide over the point made with semantics.

And again, im saying the last 20 games for the Jazz, mean nothing at all to us. Its not reflective of anything of value for us. The best we can say is they could not get Kanter to work for them. You can put that on Kanter you can put that on them, but personally im not going to put it on Kanter when i see a franchise that has not made one good move or had one good year since Sloan left. If you want to put that on him, fine. But from my view, or yours, it does not suggest how he will work with us.

The only value we could derive from last season would be the 20 games he spent with us. But those 20 games we had an entirely different roster, many many injuries, and now a new coach. So that pretty much negates any value we could gather from those games and project on the upcoming season.

[bondom34]

Again, the Grizzlies didn't become contenders b/c of that, they did because they got a great deal out of Gasol and some solid guards who could defend around ZBo. And you're again saying we can't take any negative information from 20 games, but the same games show us all the positives. You have to look at both and in the end a guy who's at best marginally better than Adams being paid 17 mil is insane. I'm sure they match, and I'll talk myself into it, but for right now it isn't too sensible.

ZBo was the Grizzlies most productive player.. im not saying he was the sole reason for contention, but he was obviously top 2 in roles. But again, you want to glide over the point made with semantics.

And again, im saying the last 20 games for the Jazz, mean nothing at all to us. Its not reflective of anything of value for us. The best we can say is they could not get Kanter to work for them. You can put that on Kanter you can put that on them, but personally im not going to put it on Kanter when i see a franchise that has not made one good move or had one good year since Sloan left.

The only value we could derive from last season would be the 20 games he spent with us. But those 20 games we had an entirely different roster, many many injuries, and now a new coach. So that pretty much negates any value we could gather from those games.

So in essence, just throwing 70 million dollars blindly and hoping its worth it. That's comforting.

[Bravenewworld]

Again, the Grizzlies didn't become contenders b/c of that, they did because they got a great deal out of Gasol and some solid guards who could defend around ZBo. And you're again saying we can't take any negative information from 20 games, but the same games show us all the positives. You have to look at both and in the end a guy who's at best marginally better than Adams being paid 17 mil is insane. I'm sure they match, and I'll talk myself into it, but for right now it isn't too sensible.

ZBo was the Grizzlies most productive player.. im not saying he was the sole reason for contention, but he was obviously top 2 in roles. But again, you want to glide over the point made with semantics.

And again, im saying the last 20 games for the Jazz, mean nothing at all to us. Its not reflective of anything of value for us. The best we can say is they could not get Kanter to work for them. You can put that on Kanter you can put that on them, but personally im not going to put it on Kanter when i see a franchise that has not made one good move or had one good year since Sloan left.

The only value we could derive from last season would be the 20 games he spent with us. But those 20 games we had an entirely different roster, many many injuries, and now a new coach. So that pretty much negates any value we could gather from those games.

So in essence, just throwing 70 million dollars blindly and hoping its worth it. That's comforting.

No, in "essence" we are throwing 70 mill at a 23 year old that we saw put up 20-10 in under 30 minutes. A guy, even those numbers aside, possibly willd evelop the best low post offense in the game within a couple years. There are not many players with his low post skills dude.... there's just not. And when you have a chance to get one, you do so and hold on to them.

[Waynearchetype]

Heat and Bosh

????????

Are you confused?
Has Bosh ever been anything more than an energy guy on defense?
Because last i checked they had to bring in guys like Battier to work around that guys lack of defense.. and of course, when that ship sailed, Bosh failed miserably defensively.... ask the Spurs how that worked for them.

This is some fine revisionist history to try to make your point, which you're failing at. At this point it sort of appears you are just throwing stuff at a wall and trying to see what sticks. And it isn't a lot.

You're throwing out a lot of guys who aren't good defenders, but none of them are nearly as bad (Statistically) as Enes Kanter. What you're failing to see is that Kanters value stems purely from his Offense. You got to see that offense when he was given his way on offense, because KD was out. You'll see this year that those numbers won't translate as well when he is 3rd/4th fiddle. For a 3rd/4th fiddle, you typically want them to be able to play defense.

I'll go ahead and say it now. He'll look lack luster when he isn't getting so many shots, and mid season fans will start to notice the team does much better with Adams out there. Next offseason comes around and you're wishing you'd had money for a role player to entice Durant. A role player whose role actually fits with what you need.

[bondom34]

ZBo was the Grizzlies most productive player.. im not saying he was the sole reason for contention, but he was obviously top 2 in roles. But again, you want to glide over the point made with semantics.

And again, im saying the last 20 games for the Jazz, mean nothing at all to us. Its not reflective of anything of value for us. The best we can say is they could not get Kanter to work for them. You can put that on Kanter you can put that on them, but personally im not going to put it on Kanter when i see a franchise that has not made one good move or had one good year since Sloan left.

The only value we could derive from last season would be the 20 games he spent with us. But those 20 games we had an entirely different roster, many many injuries, and now a new coach. So that pretty much negates any value we could gather from those games.

So in essence, just throwing 70 million dollars blindly and hoping its worth it. That's comforting.

No, in "essence" we are throwing 70 mill at a 23 year old that we saw put up 20-10 in under 30 minutes. A guy, even those numbers aside, possibly willd evelop the best low post offense in the game within a couple years. There are not many players with his low post skills dude.... there's just not. And when you have a chance to get one, you do so and hold on to them.

With terrible defense.

[bondom34]

????????

Are you confused?
Has Bosh ever been anything more than an energy guy on defense?
Because last i checked they had to bring in guys like Battier to work around that guys lack of defense.. and of course, when that ship sailed, Bosh failed miserably defensively.... ask the Spurs how that worked for them.

This is some fine revisionist history to try to make your point, which you're failing at. At this point it sort of appears you are just throwing stuff at a wall and trying to see what sticks. And it isn't a lot.

You're throwing out a lot of guys who aren't good defenders, but none of them are nearly as bad (Statistically) as Enes Kanter. What you're failing to see is that Kanters value stems purely from his Offense. You got to see that offense when he was given his way on offense, because KD was out. You'll see this year that those numbers won't translate as well when he is 3rd/4th fiddle. For a 3rd/4th fiddle, you typically want them to be able to play defense.

I'll go ahead and say it now. He'll look lack luster when he isn't getting so many shots, and mid season fans will start to notice the team does much better with Adams out there. Next offseason comes around and you're wishing you'd had money for a role player to entice Durant. A role player whose role actually fits with what you need.

This.

Oh, and they'd have cap space along with Durant's cap hold to add said player.

[Bravenewworld]

So in essence, just throwing 70 million dollars blindly and hoping its worth it. That's comforting.

No, in "essence" we are throwing 70 mill at a 23 year old that we saw put up 20-10 in under 30 minutes. A guy, even those numbers aside, possibly willd evelop the best low post offense in the game within a couple years. There are not many players with his low post skills dude.... there's just not. And when you have a chance to get one, you do so and hold on to them.

With terrible defense.

Yah. In a defensive system and in a game that is not 1v1.

[bondom34]

No, in "essence" we are throwing 70 mill at a 23 year old that we saw put up 20-10 in under 30 minutes. A guy, even those numbers aside, possibly willd evelop the best low post offense in the game within a couple years. There are not many players with his low post skills dude.... there's just not. And when you have a chance to get one, you do so and hold on to them.

With terrible defense.

Yah. In a defensive system and in a game that is not 1v1.

And the team defense was terrible too.

[Soonerule]

This is from Larry Coons CBA FAQ , under #44 Restricted Free Agency

If a team matches an offer sheet and retains its free agent, then for one year they cannot trade him without his consent, and during that year cannot trade him at all to the team that signed him to the offer sheet. They also can't trade the player in a sign-and-trade transaction (see question number 91). A restricted free agent's resulting contract (whether with the new team or the contract is matched by the player's prior team) cannot be amended in any manner for one year.

http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm

nice work TH, the key words that jump out "without his consent". Interesting.

[Bravenewworld]

????????

Are you confused?
Has Bosh ever been anything more than an energy guy on defense?
Because last i checked they had to bring in guys like Battier to work around that guys lack of defense.. and of course, when that ship sailed, Bosh failed miserably defensively.... ask the Spurs how that worked for them.

This is some fine revisionist history to try to make your point, which you're failing at. At this point it sort of appears you are just throwing stuff at a wall and trying to see what sticks. And it isn't a lot.

You're throwing out a lot of guys who aren't good defenders, but none of them are nearly as bad (Statistically) as Enes Kanter. What you're failing to see is that Kanters value stems purely from his Offense. You got to see that offense when he was given his way on offense, because KD was out. You'll see this year that those numbers won't translate as well when he is 3rd/4th fiddle. For a 3rd/4th fiddle, you typically want them to be able to play defense.

I'll go ahead and say it now. He'll look lack luster when he isn't getting so many shots, and mid season fans will start to notice the team does much better with Adams out there. Next offseason comes around and you're wishing you'd had money for a role player to entice Durant. A role player whose role actually fits with what you need.

Sure.
How about you go back to Gary Payton's speech on why Bosh was not a max player. His horrific defense... in fact.. "determent on defense" is what i believe he said, is mentioned.

Again, all i did was point out bad defenders that ended up working in systems. Their level of poor defense varies, but the point is we've seen this from the worst of the worst. Including Nash, Dirk, ZBo and KMart on our own team.

[Bravenewworld]

With terrible defense.

Yah. In a defensive system and in a game that is not 1v1.

And the team defense was terrible too.

Our defense?
No, our defense has never been terrible.

[bondom34]

Yah. In a defensive system and in a game that is not 1v1.

And the team defense was terrible too.

Our defense?
No, our defense has never been terrible.

So you just missed last season then.

[Andre Roberstan]

Yah. In a defensive system and in a game that is not 1v1.

And the team defense was terrible too.

Our defense?
No, our defense has never been terrible.

I can't any more. I'm out.

[Thunderhead]

Royce is saying, and he says he's confident about this, that Kanter will be the sixth man, thus somewhat negating his defensive shortcoming.

[bondom34]

Royce is saying, and he says he's confident about this, that Kanter will be the sixth man, thus somewhat negating his defensive shortcoming.

[Bravenewworld]

And the team defense was terrible too.

Our defense?
No, our defense has never been terrible.

So you just missed last season then.

Again... what the flying **** does last season have to do with next season?
If we were healthy, with a set roster and the same coach... okay.
That was not the case was it? It was not even close to the case was it? I mean..... if "the case" was earth, then last year, would be planet X (300 million light years for the non-astronomy ppl).

[Waynearchetype]

Sure.
How about you go back to Gary Payton's speech on why Bosh was not a max player. His horrific defense... in fact.. "determent on defense" is what i believe he said, is mentioned.

Again, all i did was point out bad defenders that ended up working in systems. Their level of poor defense varies, but the point is we've seen this from the worst of the worst. Including Nash, Dirk, ZBo and KMart on our own team.

Gary Payton was a great defender and his opinion is valuable but he is not the sole decider on a subject. Stats aren't the end all be all when it comes to defense, but they go against what Paytons opinion is. Bosh has played 12 seasons. He has had 3 seasons (the latest season included) where he had a negative defensive +/-. Of those negative seasons, his worst was roughly HALF as bad as Enes Kanters best. On average, Bosh has positive defensive +/-.

[bondom34]

Our defense?
No, our defense has never been terrible.

So you just missed last season then.

Again... what the flying **** does last season have to do with next season?
If we were healthy, with a set roster and the same coach... okay.
That was not the case was it? It was not even close to the case was it? I mean..... if "the case" was earth, then last year, would be planet X (300 million light years for the non-astronomy ppl).

So again, if last season means nothing, and his career in Utah means nothing, this is 70 million dollars with zero proof. That's not good.

[Bravenewworld]

Sure.
How about you go back to Gary Payton's speech on why Bosh was not a max player. His horrific defense... in fact.. "determent on defense" is what i believe he said, is mentioned.

Again, all i did was point out bad defenders that ended up working in systems. Their level of poor defense varies, but the point is we've seen this from the worst of the worst. Including Nash, Dirk, ZBo and KMart on our own team.

Gary Payton was a great defender and his opinion is valuable but he is not the sole decider on a subject. Stats aren't the end all be all when it comes to defense, but they go against what Paytons opinion is. Bosh has played 12 seasons. He has had 3 seasons (the latest season included) where he had a negative defensive +/-. Of those negative seasons, his worst was roughly HALF as bad as Enes Kanters best. On average, Bosh has positive defensive +/-.

No he's not. But if we are going by qualified, he is above anyone on these boards.
But its also not like we cant see these things for ourselves. Bosh had a horrible def. eff. for most of his career.