OKC Thunder Offseason 2015

[Bravenewworld]

I've never used anything to argue what every professional understands. Every one understands he's an awful, terrible, horrendous sieve on defense. And the fact that an entire career of evidence that points to this is worrisome, and signing him to a 70 mil contract and blindly saying "its different now" is wild to me.

But you are doing this. You seem to be suggesting that you've figured something out that the people giving him 70 million dollars.... 70 million dollars... have not. You seem to be ignoring that these are no issues for them, or that they feel they can work around those issues, and even with those issues they have no problem parting with.......... 70 million dollars. These are not light decisions being made and you're acting like they're just tossing it around without considering possibilities. Without paying attention to the fact that the upside that weknow he can provide, beats out his downside that we know he is at. But that downside, they still feel they can address. And why not? Hes 23.

[bondom34]

I've never used anything to argue what every professional understands. Every one understands he's an awful, terrible, horrendous sieve on defense. And the fact that an entire career of evidence that points to this is worrisome, and signing him to a 70 mil contract and blindly saying "its different now" is wild to me.

But you are doing this. You seem to be suggesting that you've figured something out that the people giving him 70 million dollars.... 70 million dollars... have not. You seem to be ignoring that these are no issues for them, or that they feel they can work around those issues, and even with those issues they have no problem parting with.......... 70 million dollars.

They can do as they please with their money. Its theirs, as is any owner's, I just don't know if it is wise.

[Podirk]

There is a very simple explanation why Kanter's defense.... or total lack of defense is very relevant. He is a center and listed solely as a center. I have seen the excuse used that Utah misused him by playing him at power forward instead of his natural position on this very board. There is nothing behind a bad defensive center but pay-dirt for opposing teams.

Zach Randolph and Chris Bosh are listed as center/PF, ZBo spends the vast majority of his time on the floor primarily playing the 4 with an elite defensive center behind him. I'm not entirely sure why Bosh is even mentioned because he has a career BPM of 1.4 that is well below what his BPM average was at Toronto which negates the argument that Kanter's numbers will improve when KD returns. Defensively, Bosh is no Marc Gasol, but he is better than Kanter and his career -3.1 BPM. When Bosh went from being the man in Toronto to #3 in the pecking order in Miami, his numbers went down, not up. Doesn't exactly strengthen the argument that Kanter's numbers will be better with all the kids back together.

I literally watched Kanter play PF last year...so I really don't care what he is listed solely as...

[Waynearchetype]

Let's go with some examples from last year.

DET W/ Smith
DET W/O Smith

GSW playing Lee
GSW Not playing Lee

Mavs W/ Rondo
Mavs W/O Rondo.

On / Off numbers do directly impact teams win totals. Sometimes removing a single weak link can make the whole team stronger.

HOW DID I LITERALLY FORGET THE MOST APPROPRIATE EXAMPLE?

Utah W/ Kanter
Utah W/O Kanter

[Bravenewworld]

I've never used anything to argue what every professional understands. Every one understands he's an awful, terrible, horrendous sieve on defense. And the fact that an entire career of evidence that points to this is worrisome, and signing him to a 70 mil contract and blindly saying "its different now" is wild to me.

But you are doing this. You seem to be suggesting that you've figured something out that the people giving him 70 million dollars.... 70 million dollars... have not. You seem to be ignoring that these are no issues for them, or that they feel they can work around those issues, and even with those issues they have no problem parting with.......... 70 million dollars.

They can do as they please with their money. Its theirs, as is any owner's, I just don't know if it is wise.

Right.
And as i stated, you are not even beginning to apply the things they are and its why you're coming to this "i just dont know if it is wise" outcome.

[Bravenewworld]

There is a very simple explanation why Kanter's defense.... or total lack of defense is very relevant. He is a center and listed solely as a center. I have seen the excuse used that Utah misused him by playing him at power forward instead of his natural position on this very board. There is nothing behind a bad defensive center but pay-dirt for opposing teams.

Zach Randolph and Chris Bosh are listed as center/PF, ZBo spends the vast majority of his time on the floor primarily playing the 4 with an elite defensive center behind him. I'm not entirely sure why Bosh is even mentioned because he has a career BPM of 1.4 that is well below what his BPM average was at Toronto which negates the argument that Kanter's numbers will improve when KD returns. Defensively, Bosh is no Marc Gasol, but he is better than Kanter and his career -3.1 BPM. When Bosh went from being the man in Toronto to #3 in the pecking order in Miami, his numbers went down, not up. Doesn't exactly strengthen the argument that Kanter's numbers will be better with all the kids back together.

I literally watched Kanter play PF last year...so I really don't care what he is listed solely as...

I seem to remember when he played PF, they did quite well and Adams at the low post defender, ended up not being an issue at all.
Its not something they can run for longer than....12 minutes a game but whatever.

[Waynearchetype]

Right.
And as i stated, you are not even beginning to apply the things they are and its why you're coming to this "i just dont know if it is wise" outcome.

The reality of the situation is that there are no more additions possible. You can choose Kanter, or you can choose Augustin/PJ3/Novak.

Kanter may be the better option, but it is still a bitter pill to swallow. Don't dress it up all fancy and you won't be let down.

[bondom34]

But you are doing this. You seem to be suggesting that you've figured something out that the people giving him 70 million dollars.... 70 million dollars... have not. You seem to be ignoring that these are no issues for them, or that they feel they can work around those issues, and even with those issues they have no problem parting with.......... 70 million dollars.

They can do as they please with their money. Its theirs, as is any owner's, I just don't know if it is wise.

Right.
And as i stated, you are not even beginning to apply the things they are and its why you're coming to this "i just dont know if it is wise" outcome.

Nor do you, and remember the time when a GM and owner thought it wise to trade away their future for a core of Deron Williams, Joe Johnson, and KG. This isn't that bad, but people make bad choices, this certainly has that potential.

[Podirk]

There is a very simple explanation why Kanter's defense.... or total lack of defense is very relevant. He is a center and listed solely as a center. I have seen the excuse used that Utah misused him by playing him at power forward instead of his natural position on this very board. There is nothing behind a bad defensive center but pay-dirt for opposing teams.

Zach Randolph and Chris Bosh are listed as center/PF, ZBo spends the vast majority of his time on the floor primarily playing the 4 with an elite defensive center behind him. I'm not entirely sure why Bosh is even mentioned because he has a career BPM of 1.4 that is well below what his BPM average was at Toronto which negates the argument that Kanter's numbers will improve when KD returns. Defensively, Bosh is no Marc Gasol, but he is better than Kanter and his career -3.1 BPM. When Bosh went from being the man in Toronto to #3 in the pecking order in Miami, his numbers went down, not up. Doesn't exactly strengthen the argument that Kanter's numbers will be better with all the kids back together.

I literally watched Kanter play PF last year...so I really don't care what he is listed solely as...

I seem to remember when he played PF, they did quite well and Adams at the low post defender, ended up not being an issue at all.
Its not something they can run for longer than....12 minutes a game but whatever.

So there is half of Kanters minutes...easy and attainable.

[Bravenewworld]

Let's go with some examples from last year.

DET W/ Smith
DET W/O Smith

GSW playing Lee
GSW Not playing Lee

Mavs W/ Rondo
Mavs W/O Rondo.

On / Off numbers do directly impact teams win totals. Sometimes removing a single weak link can make the whole team stronger.

HOW DID I LITERALLY FORGET THE MOST APPROPRIATE EXAMPLE?

Utah W/ Kanter
Utah W/O Kanter

So what exactly do you think you're demonstrating here?
It seems to me that this list is just showing what we already know. Not every player is effective in every system.

[Andre Roberstan]

I've never used anything to argue what every professional understands. Every one understands he's an awful, terrible, horrendous sieve on defense. And the fact that an entire career of evidence that points to this is worrisome, and signing him to a 70 mil contract and blindly saying "its different now" is wild to me.

But you are doing this. You seem to be suggesting that you've figured something out that the people giving him 70 million dollars.... 70 million dollars... have not. You seem to be ignoring that these are no issues for them, or that they feel they can work around those issues, and even with those issues they have no problem parting with.......... 70 million dollars. These are not light decisions being made and you're acting like they're just tossing it around without considering possibilities. Without paying attention to the fact that the upside that weknow he can provide, beats out his downside that we know he is at. But that downside, they still feel they can address. And why not? Hes 23.

Billy King gave Joe Johnson 25 million dollars a year. /thread

EDIT: Traded for JJ's 25 mil a year, whoops. Not sure which is worse.

[Podirk]

They can do as they please with their money. Its theirs, as is any owner's, I just don't know if it is wise.

Right.
And as i stated, you are not even beginning to apply the things they are and its why you're coming to this "i just dont know if it is wise" outcome.

Nor do you, and remember the time when a GM and owner thought it wise to trade away their future for a core of Deron Williams, Joe Johnson, and KG. This isn't that bad, but people make bad choices, this certainly has that potential.

I'm sorry but all 3 had longer contracts, higher maxes on a lesser cap. Trading away the future for the current..and a poor current at that.

This is a shorter contract, lesser max, on a cap that is GINORMOUS!!!! They are in fact investing in this player/contract and the future.

[Andre Roberstan]

I literally watched Kanter play PF last year...so I really don't care what he is listed solely as...

I seem to remember when he played PF, they did quite well and Adams at the low post defender, ended up not being an issue at all.
Its not something they can run for longer than....12 minutes a game but whatever.

So there is half of Kanters minutes...easy and attainable.

Probably only doable with 3 shooters on the floor. That stretch coincided with Russ's numbers taking a big efficiency drop, which I think can be partly traced back to the much worse spacing.

[bondom34]

Right.
And as i stated, you are not even beginning to apply the things they are and its why you're coming to this "i just dont know if it is wise" outcome.

Nor do you, and remember the time when a GM and owner thought it wise to trade away their future for a core of Deron Williams, Joe Johnson, and KG. This isn't that bad, but people make bad choices, this certainly has that potential.

I'm sorry but all 3 had longer contracts, higher maxes on a lesser cap. Trading away the future for the current..and a poor current at that.

This is a shorter contract, lesser max, on a cap that is GINORMOUS!!!! They are in fact investing in this player/contract and the future.

And all three were probably still better players, we currently don't have any evidence that Kanter is more than a backup quality big man.

[bondom34]

Right.
And as i stated, you are not even beginning to apply the things they are and its why you're coming to this "i just dont know if it is wise" outcome.

Nor do you, and remember the time when a GM and owner thought it wise to trade away their future for a core of Deron Williams, Joe Johnson, and KG. This isn't that bad, but people make bad choices, this certainly has that potential.

I'm sorry but all 3 had longer contracts, higher maxes on a lesser cap. Trading away the future for the current..and a poor current at that.

This is a shorter contract, lesser max, on a cap that is GINORMOUS!!!! They are in fact investing in this player/contract and the future.

And all three were probably still better players, we currently don't have any evidence that Kanter is more than a backup quality big man.

[Waynearchetype]

So what exactly do you think you're demonstrating here?
It seems to me that this list is just showing what we already know. Not every player is effective in every system.

I don't want to be condescending and say things like "This is an ultra basic even before ultra basic concept" but...

You keep saying that it is a team game and a single players deficiencies can be masked by the teams strengths. I've provided you with examples where a single players deficiencies could not be masked by their teams strengths, and the teams only excelled when they stopped playing those players.

[Bravenewworld]

Right.
And as i stated, you are not even beginning to apply the things they are and its why you're coming to this "i just dont know if it is wise" outcome.

The reality of the situation is that there are no more additions possible. You can choose Kanter, or you can choose Augustin/PJ3/Novak.

Kanter may be the better option, but it is still a bitter pill to swallow. Don't dress it up all fancy and you won't be let down.

I mean....it seems to me that its the pill most expected and were fine with.

[Podirk]

Nor do you, and remember the time when a GM and owner thought it wise to trade away their future for a core of Deron Williams, Joe Johnson, and KG. This isn't that bad, but people make bad choices, this certainly has that potential.

I'm sorry but all 3 had longer contracts, higher maxes on a lesser cap. Trading away the future for the current..and a poor current at that.

This is a shorter contract, lesser max, on a cap that is GINORMOUS!!!! They are in fact investing in this player/contract and the future.

And all three were probably still better players, we currently don't have any evidence that Kanter is more than a backup quality big man.

I don't care if he is a backup or starter...in the NBA you pay heavy for offense...you pay heavy for big men...and in the increased cap era everything looks heavy right now. We have all 3 right here.

Default "we need this sized contract for the future is a huge reason to do this" addition to the post.

[bondom34]

I'm sorry but all 3 had longer contracts, higher maxes on a lesser cap. Trading away the future for the current..and a poor current at that.

This is a shorter contract, lesser max, on a cap that is GINORMOUS!!!! They are in fact investing in this player/contract and the future.

And all three were probably still better players, we currently don't have any evidence that Kanter is more than a backup quality big man.

I don't care if he is a backup or starter...in the NBA you pay heavy for offense...you pay heavy for big men...and in the increased cap era everything looks heavy right now. We have all 3 right here.

Default "we need this sized contract for the future is a huge reason to do this" addition to the post.

Or, you don't and have cap space next year for a possibly much better player. They'd have a bunch of it even with KD's cap hold (I wanna say like 15 mil ballpark).

[Bravenewworld]

They can do as they please with their money. Its theirs, as is any owner's, I just don't know if it is wise.

Right.
And as i stated, you are not even beginning to apply the things they are and its why you're coming to this "i just dont know if it is wise" outcome.

Nor do you, and remember the time when a GM and owner thought it wise to trade away their future for a core of Deron Williams, Joe Johnson, and KG. This isn't that bad, but people make bad choices, this certainly has that potential.

.......we could sign DHoward for 1 million dollars and something could go wrong and it end up being a bad choice... wtf is your point?
In this scenario, the pro's far outweigh the con's.