Masai Ujiri: Raptors Will Change Defensive Scheme For JV

[Saciid11]

His advance stats show that he can be more than a "good complementary player" and already is, his situation is similar to what Harden was for OKC, playing a limited role but people expected more out of him. The issue is Harden was never thrown under the bus by Scott Brooks like Casey does for Jonas.

Yes the focus of the NBA has moved to the 1-3 spots now. But San Antonio still won championships with an old Tim Duncan, Cavaliers almost won with immobile Mozgov. Fact is, a good big man will always get you far, despite everyone trying to play small.

If you want to get more out of Jonas, Casey is not the coach to do it, he never was for Davis, Acy, Ross, Bruno, Jonas or any other young guy we had under his tenure. Not advocating him as Franchise player but Jonas is currently being wasted.

He is nothing like the Harden situation. And JV was never thrown under the bus by DC, this is a fallacy.

So youre saying we should emulate Movgoz with JV? Or youre just listing starting big men for good teams??

Davis had his best years under DC, Bruno is a very raw rookie, Ross is inconsistent.

Alot of BS in this post IMO.

My main question is what advanced stats show hes more than a good complimentary player? his TS%? again he shoots 90% of his shots from < 10ft, ofcourse he should be hyper efficient, as are all bigs who do the same.

To be fair to Bankai, Casey hasn't developed a player beyond - or even up to - his potential. He also hasn't been very trusting of his rookies and has been stubborn in his way during his entire tenure, which I believe was a point of contention with him in Minnesota as well.

Though I agree that this isn't like the Harden situation. Harden had already shown what he could do, he just needed a bigger role. JV still has gaps in his game that he needs to fill before his role is wholly expanded - I do believe he needs a larger role at his current production, but not to the extreme a la Harden.

What more development do you need then starting job... Ross has been starting for this team for year and half, JV has been starter basically since he arrived here. If they can't show what they are capable of with all that playing time, then are they scrubs. Look at Gobert, he gets opportunity off the bench and earns his starting position... that forced JAzz trade a young big they invested allot.

Casey when it comes to opportunity, he has been the best coach...

[curryking3]

Finally!!!

[Johnny Bball]

JVs problem is he doesn't/can't hedge and plays too far back. There is no change here beyond forcing it to the sides instead of the middle. Another year of bad pnr defense coming.

[Saciid11]

JVs problem is he doesn't/can't hedge and plays too far back. There is no change here beyond forcing it to the sides instead of the middle. Another year of bad pnr defense coming.

This franchise never learns..

[curryking3]

JVs problem is he doesn't/can't hedge and plays too far back. There is no change here beyond forcing it to the sides instead of the middle. Another year of bad pnr defense coming.

This franchise never learns..

We have to see whether or not the defensive guards and SF can do their job first.

If they start playing better man-to-man defense with the current roster, and start trying to use ICE on the pick and roll sometimes, we might get better results.

All the defensive collapses last year were due to dribble penetrations for drives or drive and kicks.

So yea we'll see.

[Johnny Bball]

JVs problem is he doesn't/can't hedge and plays too far back. There is no change here beyond forcing it to the sides instead of the middle. Another year of bad pnr defense coming.

This franchise never learns..

We have to see whether or not the defensive guards and SF can do their job first.

If they start playing better man-to-man defense with the current roster, and start trying to use ICE on the pick and roll sometimes, we might get better results.

All the defensive collapses last year were due to dribble penetrations for drives or drive and kicks.

So yea we'll see.

The penetration starts with the pnr. The bigs are the ones hanging our perimeter defender out by not helping on it. Im not convinced JV is smart enough or quick enough if they ICE defenders with him. That also does move him out to the perimeter more. If they do switch and play ICE with JV, at least its somehting different than what was clearly not working. but that does not sound like what was described.

[MikeM]

JV is a good player but his quickness is a big problem. It's hard to design a defensive scheme for a plodding C nowadays. There needs to be an adjustment from Casey but there also needs to be an adjustment from JV. The two go hand in hand.

[Bankai]

Yes Casey has thrown Jonas under the bus, it was the most evident with all of his end of the season quotes and press conferences.

[Mack11]

remember last year when they said they were gonna change the offensive schemes to accommodate JV? that worked out swimmingly

[vini_vidi_vici]

His advance stats show that he can be more than a "good complementary player" and already is, his situation is similar to what Harden was for OKC, playing a limited role but people expected more out of him. The issue is Harden was never thrown under the bus by Scott Brooks like Casey does for Jonas.

Yes the focus of the NBA has moved to the 1-3 spots now. But San Antonio still won championships with an old Tim Duncan, Cavaliers almost won with immobile Mozgov. Fact is, a good big man will always get you far, despite everyone trying to play small.

If you want to get more out of Jonas, Casey is not the coach to do it, he never was for Davis, Acy, Ross, Bruno, Jonas or any other young guy we had under his tenure. Not advocating him as Franchise player but Jonas is currently being wasted.

He is nothing like the Harden situation. And JV was never thrown under the bus by DC, this is a fallacy.

So youre saying we should emulate Movgoz with JV? Or youre just listing starting big men for good teams??

Davis had his best years under DC, Bruno is a very raw rookie, Ross is inconsistent.

Alot of BS in this post IMO.

My main question is what advanced stats show hes more than a good complimentary player? his TS%? again he shoots 90% of his shots from < 10ft, ofcourse he should be hyper efficient, as are all bigs who do the same.

To be fair to Bankai, Casey hasn't developed a player beyond - or even up to - his potential. He also hasn't been very trusting of his rookies and has been stubborn in his way during his entire tenure, which I believe was a point of contention with him in Minnesota as well.

Though I agree that this isn't like the Harden situation. Harden had already shown what he could do, he just needed a bigger role. JV still has gaps in his game that he needs to fill before his role is wholly expanded - I do believe he needs a larger role at his current production, but not to the extreme a la Harden.

JV has gotten better, or improved on things every year hes been in the league.

KL had his best years under DC, etc..

What youre saying is your subjective expectation of what you think a player is capable of, thats not entirely fair to put on DC either.

I think there is merit he should get (not deserves) more offensive touches, but when you consider his defensive deficiencies, I think its also fair to say hes getting more USG/PT than hes probably earned. Thats again not even considering how much the league has evolved over the last few years away from inside games (unless its penetration) and to more ball movement (something that JV moreso than anyone on the roster lacks, as evidenced with his ASTr/etc..).

[vini_vidi_vici]

Yes Casey has thrown Jonas under the bus, it was the most evident with all of his end of the season quotes and press conferences.

You realize, he regressed pretty badly in the POs. If it werent for KL sh*tting the bed, it would be more pronounced.

Beyond that, provide these quotes he was thrown under the bus with?

[ForeverTFC]

Yes Casey has thrown Jonas under the bus, it was the most evident with all of his end of the season quotes and press conferences.

You realize, he regressed pretty badly in the POs. If it werent for KL sh*tting the bed, it would be more pronounced.

Beyond that, provide these quotes he was thrown under the bus with?

I have to ask VVV, what do you like about Casey and what do you think he does very well? What do you think are his deficiencies?

Not putting you on the spot, actually curious and want to hear you out to see if it changes my outlook in any way. I remember that you used to despise Sam Mitchell.

[Hero]

What, we're building around our young potential franchise centre? That's silly. Instead we should continue playing no perimeter D and increase our chucking of long twos.

JV isn't a potential franchise center. What has he shown to believe he can ever be that ?

[vini_vidi_vici]

Yes Casey has thrown Jonas under the bus, it was the most evident with all of his end of the season quotes and press conferences.

You realize, he regressed pretty badly in the POs. If it werent for KL sh*tting the bed, it would be more pronounced.

Beyond that, provide these quotes he was thrown under the bus with?

I have to ask VVV, what do you like about Casey and what do you think he does very well? What do you think are his deficiencies?

Not putting you on the spot, actually curious and want to hear you out to see if it changes my outlook in any way. I remember that you used to despise Sam Mitchell.

I despised Smitch largely because of ignorance. Since then ive evolved due to reading studies/etc.. that have gone on to influence my rationale. From again the Berri study/harvard study, to the various articles (like the Seth partnow one I constantly reference), etc..

I dont know what DC does well, I do know that the coaching staff/FO as a whole have emphasized the same things. Which is clearly a good thing for this franchise, even if you disagree with the direction (more ISOs/etc..).

I dont have access to principles/philosophies that he and the rest of the franchise implore apart from pressers/tweets/48 mins of game play. Its difficult to evaluate someone on their inherent strengths and weaknesses, with such incomplete information and be as definitive as these posters.

I have said since 2013 that DC isnt some great coach just average like 90% or coaches, just that largely the complaints levied against him or purely on subjective reasoning and frequently lilttle more than anecdotes on their perception of things. They use nebulous terms that they cant quantify (rotations/etc..), and cite it as some sort of gospel, and thats where my argument begins and ends. We arent privy to all the going ons.

FWIW I appreciate the dialogue and that youre not trying to antagonize me, but im never trying to convince anyone im right or wrong, just that their complaints are largely shared among even the greatest coaches (I spammed Spurstalk quotes of criticisms of "Popped" earlier this year, the exact same narratives levied against him are used against DC) and that its hardly an indictment on him.

What I do think is this is a players league, and their development, improvements, regressions are largely on themselves.

[Double Helix]

There's no doubt that JV still isn't prepared to be the kind of C Casey wanted him to be defensively. The Raptors were better with 2Pat and Amir out there but both guys are older and fit into Casey's preferred approach better.

With Amir gone I think it's wise that they are trying to think of a better way to approach defence with JV playing big minutes. Another year older, I'm hoping for increased defensive awareness, better game prep, better use of video tape sessions, and comfort from JV. You combine that with superior defence at the SF position, super defence at the backup PG position over last year and hopefully a new defensive philosophy that plays more to the new group's strengths and hopefully we can make it work. I really believe he has a lot of growth left on both ends. It's coming slowly but he's nowhere near a finished product yet. Cs tend to continue to develop late into their twenties. I haven't read through this entire threat yet but I saw somebody mentioned Mozgov. We'll, he's nearly 30 now and improved considerably from when he was 22 and outside of the NBA. Same for Marc Gasol. Does anybody really think he'd have the ability, the knowledge, the experience or the patience to be a DPOY winner if he had been in the NBA at age 22? He was still overseas learning. Patience, folks.


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[DreamTeam09]

When we played BK in the PO first 3 games JV beasted. Dominant actually. Real presence. Get him to that consistent wise. JV definitely has showed flashes and glimpses of being star C or big. That shouldn't be questioned.

The other things maybe.

[vini_vidi_vici]

There's no doubt that JV still isn't prepared to be the kind of C Casey wanted him to be defensively. The Raptors were better with 2Pat and Amir out there but both guys are older and fit into Casey's preferred approach better.

With Amir gone I think it's wise that they are trying to think of a better way to approach defence with JV playing big minutes. Another year older, I'm hoping for increased defensive awareness, better game prep, better use of video tape sessions, and comfort from JV. You combine that with superior defence at the SF position and hopefully a new defensive philosophy that plays more to the new group's strengths and hopefully we can make it work. I really believe he has a lot of growth left on both ends. It's coming slowly but he's nowhere near a finished product yet.


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I dont understand what kind of C you think DC wants him to be? What does this mean??

I also admit its disconcerting on the surface to have to change the way the defense is playing for 1 player. Having said that, until I see some results/changes, I dont know if we can assume it will be better. I agree though its better to have a more consistent defender in DMC in the SL.

As for his growth, im unsure how much more you will see. I think hes already hyper efficient given his role offensively (OREBs/close to the basket/etc..), I think the real progression is going to come from his passing game offensively. He was also a good rim protector last year, but got killed in PnR and vs PnP bigs specifically, unless he becomes more mobile like the aforementioned AJ/PP, its tough to see alot of growth in those departments too. Having said that, projecting improvements/regressions is a tough avenue to take with almost any young player, its almost a crap shoot.

[Double Helix]

There's no doubt that JV still isn't prepared to be the kind of C Casey wanted him to be defensively. The Raptors were better with 2Pat and Amir out there but both guys are older and fit into Casey's preferred approach better.

With Amir gone I think it's wise that they are trying to think of a better way to approach defence with JV playing big minutes. Another year older, I'm hoping for increased defensive awareness, better game prep, better use of video tape sessions, and comfort from JV. You combine that with superior defence at the SF position and hopefully a new defensive philosophy that plays more to the new group's strengths and hopefully we can make it work. I really believe he has a lot of growth left on both ends. It's coming slowly but he's nowhere near a finished product yet.


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I dont understand what kind of C you think DC wants him to be? What does this mean??

I also admit its disconcerting on the surface to have to change the way the defense is playing for 1 player. Having said that, until I see some results/changes, I dont know if we can assume it will be better. I agree though its better to have a more consistent defender in DMC in the SL.

As for his growth, im unsure how much more you will see. I think hes already hyper efficient given his role offensively (OREBs/close to the basket/etc..), I think the real progression is going to come from his passing game offensively. He was also a good rim protector last year, but got killed in PnR and vs PnP bigs specifically, unless he becomes more mobile like the aforementioned AJ/PP, its tough to see alot of growth in those departments too. Having said that, projecting improvements/regressions is a tough avenue to take with almost any young player, its almost a crap shoot.

I think he wishes he was Tyson Chandler who he had in Dallas. It's obvious he's not that level of athlete.

But even Chandler wasn't the Chandler we know now right away. Note his BPM. It wasn't until his 4th year he was a net positive. He took a big step up in year 4.

And as I said about Marc Gasol, who isn't exactly uber athletic, he wasn't an NBA net positive until he was 25.

I understand you are concerned about JV because you are looking at what he is now more than you are trying to project where he might end up. I'm more concerned with the latter given his age and the growth I've seen from him annually in different areas of the game.

I'm heading out for the day so I won't be able to respond beyond this but I hope JV steps up big this season so that you and others are more excited about his future with this team.


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[vini_vidi_vici]

When we played BK in the PO first 3 games JV beasted. Dominant actually. Real presence. Get him to that consistent wise. JV definitely has showed flashes and glimpses of being star C or big. That shouldn't be questioned.

The other things maybe.

Meh, his rim protection that series was fairly mediocre (51 FG% against). He had a +4.5 DFG% differential. -0.3 DPBM. I dont know why it shouldnt be questioned.

FWIW, almost every player shows glimpses of being a star, im not sure thats a fair way to evaluate players. TR scored 50+ points in a game, I dont think anyone thinks hes going to be some elite scorer.

[Clementine9]

Team's DefRtg with JV on court: 105.6
Off court: 104.0

The change in scheme is barely about JV, though Masai said it was. The whole team sucked on defense.

This is even more interesting:
Those same stats from January-April 15th...
On court: 104.0
Off court: 107.0

Jonas had a really bad part of November, all of December, and a little into January, which skew his numbers (I'm pretty sure those were the months).

I don't think we're adjusting just to try and hide or somehow work with JV's weaknesses. Right now, from what I see, he's not detrimental to our defense. He's non-impactful, essentially neutral. Not much changes with him on or off the floor. Even if we only look at January-April we go from bad team defense with him on the floor to more bad defense with him off. Probably a bigger problem is his role in the offense, which runs much better with him off the floor. He doesn't really play a part on that end and I hope that changes or else he's useless to us.

During that second half of the season here are the team's OffRtg on/off numbers for JV:
Team OffRtg on court: 102.0
Team OffRtg off court: 109.7

I think they're hoping that he can anchor the defense as a big man in the next few years, and they're setting up a defensive scheme they think he's most likely to grow better in. They want him to go from irrelevant on defense, to a big part of it. BUT ALSO, this fits more in line with how the rest of our team is able to play defense (and how a lot of the league plays). If it doesn't work, we'll just be a bad defensive team again and it will be far from JV's fault. He'll just be another guy on the team who doesn't really make a difference defensively.