Political Roundtable - Part VII

[dckingsfan]

And interestingly enough, many nations seem to disagree with President Carter's assessment.

Well at least the citizens of those nations do....


http://www.businessinsider.com/obamas-approval-ratings-around-world-2015-6

glad 2 hear president obama is doing great. how's america doing?

I would say pretty good considering where we were not that long ago. You know...banking melt down, housing melt down, auto melt down, stock market melt down and the dollar in serious threat of not being the default currency.

Does anyone remember the call to buy Gold and buy the Franc by some posters ? Well if you want to buy gold, you might want to look now, its at its lowest point since April 2010

Fast forward and oil is way down, gas is down, dollar has been strong, economy stabilized with steady constant growth, fed finally thinking about raising rates.

Things could be better. They always can be. But they could be way worse.

Are we out of the woods. No. But first you stabilize the patient.

Now things could be much better if the House would have lifted even one finger to help, but they haven't.

Debt to GDP has stabilized but debt to taxes collected is still an issue. And to fix that, everything needs to be on the table. No one thing will fix it.

meh - one of your usual obfuscations... are things bad, yes - but they could always be worse. Hence your party (or team) of choice is doing great. That is as damning as Carter statement.

[Zonkerbl]

glad 2 hear president obama is doing great. how's america doing?

I would say pretty good considering where we were not that long ago. You know...banking melt down, housing melt down, auto melt down, stock market melt down and the dollar in serious threat of not being the default currency.

Does anyone remember the call to buy Gold and buy the Franc by some posters ? Well if you want to buy gold, you might want to look now, its at its lowest point since April 2010

Fast forward and oil is way down, gas is down, dollar has been strong, economy stabilized with steady constant growth, fed finally thinking about raising rates.

Things could be better. They always can be. But they could be way worse.

Are we out of the woods. No. But first you stabilize the patient.

Now things could be much better if the House would have lifted even one finger to help, but they haven't.

Debt to GDP has stabilized but debt to taxes collected is still an issue. And to fix that, everything needs to be on the table. No one thing will fix it.

meh - one of your usual obfuscations... are things bad, yes - but they could always be worse. Hence your party (or team) of choice is doing great. That is as damning as Carter statement.

General question for the board: In what way is the U.S. doing badly now, I'm curious? Other than having an African American president, which makes racists angry, what exactly is going so wrong? And among those things going wrong, what is your claim about what Obama should be doing about it?

Let's make it challenging. Provide me something that takes longer than thirty seconds to rebut.

[dobrojim]

I'd say we are doing badly in coming up with creative ideas to fix what many believe is now
a largely dysfunctional political system where entrenched interests are able to grease enough
palms so as to impede, at least for the near to medium term, necessary and largely popular changes.

[dckingsfan]

I would say that we don't have the growth to provide new jobs to our college graduates.

[dckingsfan]

I would say that we have too large a debt burden on our college graduates.

[dckingsfan]

I would say that we aren't investing enough in infrastructure.

[dckingsfan]

I would say that our entitlement payment system is out of whack and unsustainable.

[dckingsfan]

I would say at the local level, we have many municipalities that are essentially bankrupt.

[dckingsfan]

I would say that we haven't had a good foreign policy in 20+ years.

[dckingsfan]

I would say that we spend too much on defense and have no way of reigning in those expenditures.

[popper]

I would say almost everything.

The former Attorney General was held in contempt of congress on a bipartisan vote.

The IRS’s Lois Lerner pleads the fifth so as not to incriminate herself.

The VA is a disaster.

Obama drags his feet on appointing Inspectors General. It takes him twice as long as previous presidents to fill these important positions. I think the State Dept was without one for five years.

ACA – Obama lied repeatedly about keeping your doctor and keeping your plan to get ACA passed. He lied to Stephanopoulos when he argued that the ACA penalty was not a tax, and then when challenged in court, argued before SCOTUS that it was, in fact, a tax. As the law began to take effect, he delayed implementation of key parts to bolster his chances for reelection (many argue this action was a gross violation of federal law and is now being litigated).

Illegal Immigration – Obama has taken executive action in a number of areas (many believe in violation of federal law) that are now being litigated. His latest action has been frozen by a federal judge and upheld by an appeals court in New Orleans pending a full hearing.

More than two hundred American cities provide sanctuary to illegal immigrants. The cities are in clear violation of federal immigration law. Obama has turned a blind eye to this usurpation of federal authority. Thus, many American citizens have been killed, raped, molested and robbed as criminal aliens are released back onto our streets.

The Russian reset was an abject failure. They invaded Ukraine. Further moves into the Baltic States are anticipated.

The president bragged that Iraq was a stable success story and pulled all remaining troops out and the resulting vacuum was filled by ISIS and Iran.

Obama’s “Red Line” in Syria was crossed and our inaction facilitated the expansion of ISIS.

We attacked Libya and overthrew its leader and now that country is ungovernable.

National debt will have roughly doubled in Obama’s term in office.

Labor participation rates are an embarrassment.

Race relations are as bad as I have ever seen them.

China is building military islands in the South China Sea to control those important shipping lanes.

OPM was hacked and now China has the intimate details of 21 million Americans, including those in sensitive defense and intelligence positions. His appointee, a former political director/hack, resigned under bipartisan duress.

I could go on and on but it’s too depressing.

[TGW]

You know what popper...I spent about 20 minutes literally rebutting every thing you brought up. Then I thought about it...why bother. You're just going to continue crying about a bunch of stuff, find a way to blame Obama for it, and then go to your right wing blogs to cry some more. No point debating against a bunch of talking points, because most Fox viewers like yourself, complain about stuff but have ABSOLUTELY NO SOLUTIONS FOR ANYTHING. And that's what the republican party represents...no solutions...just whining.

[popper]

You know what popper...I spent about 20 minutes literally rebutting every thing you brought up. Then I thought about it...why bother. You're just going to continue crying about a bunch of stuff, find a way to blame Obama for it, and then go to your right wing blogs to cry some more. No point debating against a bunch of talking points, because most Fox viewers like yourself, complain about stuff but have ABSOLUTELY NO SOLUTIONS FOR ANYTHING. And that's what the republican party represents...no solutions...just whining.

I can see how several of my bullet points are debatable. For instance, maybe Russia would have attacked Ukraine no matter who was president. Maybe China would have pushed into the South China Sea regardless of our leadership. I'll concede that. I'm sure there are a few other items as well. I try to be a fair minded person so I'm open to your opinions on the matter.

What troubles me most about this administration is the "ends justify the means" approach to governance and the appointment of federal judges (especially Supreme) who believe, as the president does, that the Constitution is a "living document". With the former, we lose our soul as a country, with the latter, the rule of law takes a back seat to raw political power.

[DCZards]

What troubles me most about this administration is the "ends justify the means" approach to governance and the appointment of federal judges (especially Supreme) who believe, as the president does, that the Constitution is a "living document". With the former, we lose our soul as a country, with the latter, the rule of law takes a back seat to raw political power.

Popper, the last thing you should complain about is Supreme Court appointments. Presidents from both parties have operated pretty much the exact same way when it comes to these appointments. When there's a Republican president he typically appoints SC justices whose interpretation of the Constitution is consistent with the views of conservatives. (Do you have a problem with those appointments?) The Obama administration is simply doing the same from the progressive/liberal perspective.

That's the nature of the beast...and it's also one of the reasons why presidential elections are so important. To the victor goes the spoils.

[TGW]

What troubles me most about this administration is the "ends justify the means" approach to governance and the appointment of federal judges (especially Supreme) who believe, as the president does, that the Constitution is a "living document". With the former, we lose our soul as a country, with the latter, the rule of law takes a back seat to raw political power.

Popper, the last thing you should complain about is Supreme Court appointments. Presidents from both parties have operated pretty much the exact same way when it comes to these appointments. When there's a Republican president he typically appoints SC justices whose interpretation of the Constitution is consistent with the views of conservatives. (Do you have a problem with those appointments?) The Obama administration is simply doing the same from the progressive/liberal perspective.

That's the nature of the beast...and it's also one of the reasons why presidential elections are so important. To the victor goes the spoils.

Exactly..the narrative that Obama is an "imperial president" with "Czars" is simply ludicrous and killed any type of productive dialog. And this is what the right is pushing...that somehow Obama is doing something differently than what previous presidents have done. It's counterproductive and downright silly to accuse a sitting president of being a dictator when he's (a) using the power of the executive branch as given to him by the forefathers and (b) he was democratically elected by a majority of Americans.

[popper]

What troubles me most about this administration is the "ends justify the means" approach to governance and the appointment of federal judges (especially Supreme) who believe, as the president does, that the Constitution is a "living document". With the former, we lose our soul as a country, with the latter, the rule of law takes a back seat to raw political power.

Popper, the last thing you should complain about is Supreme Court appointments. Presidents from both parties have operated pretty much the exact same way when it comes to these appointments. When there's a Republican president he typically appoints SC justices whose interpretation of the Constitution is consistent with the views of conservatives. (Do you have a problem with those appointments?) The Obama administration is simply doing the same from the progressive/liberal perspective.

That's the nature of the beast...and it's also one of the reasons why presidential elections are so important. To the victor goes the spoils.

I don't have a problem with justices of any party provided they interpret the Constitution in a originalist fashion. In fact for the first 130 years of our existence most Dem appointed Supremes did so. Dems understood sometime ago that the American public would not support much of their progressive agenda and so the "living Constitution" movement took hold. That way they could expand federal authority without going through the amendment process (where their chances of success were dubious at best). I've disagreed with interpretations of some R justices as well when they try to read in to the constitution meaning that doesn't exist.

We should all fight hard to ensure that your last observation regarding victors and spoils is rejected and that honest and fair govt. triumphs in the end. I'm not holding my breath.

[TheSecretWeapon]

I looked up exactly one item from popper's list -- the first one. And even that is kinda iffy. Yes, Holder was held in contempt by "bipartisan" vote. Seventeen Democrats voted to hold Holder in contempt -- 16 of whom had received previous endorsements from the NRA, and the 17th represented a conservative district in upstate New York and voted regularly with Republcans on an array of issues (including repealing ACA, in favor of the House GOP budget plan, and Boehner's debt-reduction bill).

Not having the time (or willingness) to look up the rest, I'm going to figure they're probably iffy as well.

[dobrojim]

1. I would say that we don't have the growth to provide new jobs to our college graduates.

2. I would say that we have too large a debt burden on our college graduates.

3. I would say that we aren't investing enough in infrastructure.

4. I would say that our entitlement payment system is out of whack and unsustainable.

5. I would say at the local level, we have many municipalities that are essentially bankrupt.

6. I would say that we haven't had a good foreign policy in 20+ years.

7. I would say that we spend too much on defense and have no way of reigning in those expenditures.

Not a bad list DCK -
1. austerity hasn't been shown to be very effective in promoting growth. Where has it
actually and conclusively worked?

2. college needs to be more affordable. The generally higher wages earned by degree'd
folks will promote a more virtuous cycle, more broadly shared prosperity, than the system
in place now. If not college, which I am not saying is for everyone, than trade/vocational
schools. Young people can see what is around them. If the opportunities are scarce, then
optimism and motivation are more difficult to sustain.

3. Couldn't agree more. Number 2 is just human infrastructure as opposed to physical entities.
Both are deserving of greater investment. Both will pay off long term.

[I lay 1-3 at the feet of the Grover Norquist acolytes who sincerely believe the govt
is incapable of doing anything right and therefore are reflexively opposed to
all taxes and especially any new taxes. I have a somewhat more nuanced and certainly
more optimistic view than they do.]

4. Agree but I would say it's not as far out of whack as many believe. A modest increase in
the current cap threshold on paying into the system would make it solvent for the foreseeable
future. Soc Sec has been the most successful anti-poverty program in the history of the world.
Relatively minor adjustments would sustain it indefinitely or at least as far out as we can
accurately predict.

5. Improvements in addressing items 1-3 would help here.

6. 20 + 45 years; basically since the rise of the defense/congressional military industrial complex
post WWII. We need to be more rational when it comes to assessing what constitutes a genuine
threat. We don't need military bases in over 100 foreign countries or military spending greater
than the combined total of the next umpteen countries. We need to stop letting private
commercial interests drive a militarist foreign policy. And we need to stop letting the loudest,
most terrified screamers scare the rest of us into "solutions" that leave us long term in the same
place as we had been but only more broke.

7. see #6. Very interconnected.

[popper]

I looked up exactly one item from popper's list -- the first one. And even that is kinda iffy. Yes, Holder was held in contempt by "bipartisan" vote. Seventeen Democrats voted to hold Holder in contempt -- 16 of whom had received previous endorsements from the NRA, and the 17th represented a conservative district in upstate New York and voted regularly with Republcans on an array of issues (including repealing ACA, in favor of the House GOP budget plan, and Boehner's debt-reduction bill).

Not having the time (or willingness) to look up the rest, I'm going to figure they're probably iffy as well.

Huh. Look up first bullet point and declare it accurate and then conclude that subsequent bullet points must be iffy. I'm scratching my head.

[dobrojim]

I think he said it was accurate but when looked at in detail was misleading. If you define 17 or ~10% or less
of one party as going along as bi-partisan, it was accurate. To be fair to you popper, I think politicians
throw the term around pretty loosely for self-serving interests. I think most of us would expect the meaning
to reflect a more broadly shared agreement.