Political Roundtable - Part VII

[popper]

I doubt the average person realizes that the progressive leadership promotes the bulk of their policy agenda using the “Five Basic Rules of Propaganda” template.
( described in Norman Davies book “Europe, a History”, Oxford University Press, 1996, pp 500-501)

Try it out for yourself. It’s fun. Take any popular progressive cause and load it into the propaganda template below to understand how the masses are manipulated.

1. The rule of simplification: reducing all data to a simple confrontation between 'Good and Bad', 'Friend and Foe'.

2. The rule of disfiguration: discrediting the opposition by crude smears and parodies.

3. The rule of transfusion: manipulating the consensus values of the target audience for one’s own ends.

4. The rule of unanimity: presenting one's viewpoint as if it is the unanimous opinion of all right-thinking people; including drawing doubting individuals into agreement by the appeal of star-performers, social pressure and by ‘psychological contagion, aka psy-ops.

5. The rule of orchestration: endlessly repeating the same message; in different variations and combinations."

[TheSecretWeapon]

I looked up exactly one item from popper's list -- the first one. And even that is kinda iffy. Yes, Holder was held in contempt by "bipartisan" vote. Seventeen Democrats voted to hold Holder in contempt -- 16 of whom had received previous endorsements from the NRA, and the 17th represented a conservative district in upstate New York and voted regularly with Republcans on an array of issues (including repealing ACA, in favor of the House GOP budget plan, and Boehner's debt-reduction bill).

Not having the time (or willingness) to look up the rest, I'm going to figure they're probably iffy as well.

Huh. Look up first bullet point and declare it accurate and then conclude that subsequent bullet points must be iffy. I'm scratching my head.

Oh yeah, looking it up and typing that post between calls led me to neglect mentioning that ~100 Democrats walked off the House floor and called the vote an "illegitimate" charade.

[TheSecretWeapon]

I doubt the average person realizes that the progressive leadership promotes the bulk of their policy agenda using the “Five Basic Rules of Propaganda” template.
( described in Norman Davies book “Europe, a History”, Oxford University Press, 1996, pp 500-501)

Try it out for yourself. It’s fun. Take any popular progressive cause and load it into the propaganda template below to understand how the masses are manipulated.

1. The rule of simplification: reducing all data to a simple confrontation between 'Good and Bad', 'Friend and Foe'.

2. The rule of disfiguration: discrediting the opposition by crude smears and parodies.

3. The rule of transfusion: manipulating the consensus values of the target audience for one’s own ends.

4. The rule of unanimity: presenting one's viewpoint as if it is the unanimous opinion of all right-thinking people; including drawing doubting individuals into agreement by the appeal of star-performers, social pressure and by ‘psychological contagion, aka psy-ops.

5. The rule of orchestration: endlessly repeating the same message; in different variations and combinations."

Are you aware that the conservative leadership does the same thing?

[DCZards]

I doubt the average person realizes that the progressive leadership promotes the bulk of their policy agenda using the “Five Basic Rules of Propaganda” template.
( described in Norman Davies book “Europe, a History”, Oxford University Press, 1996, pp 500-501)

Try it out for yourself. It’s fun. Take any popular progressive cause and load it into the propaganda template below to understand how the masses are manipulated.

1. The rule of simplification: reducing all data to a simple confrontation between 'Good and Bad', 'Friend and Foe'.

2. The rule of disfiguration: discrediting the opposition by crude smears and parodies.

3. The rule of transfusion: manipulating the consensus values of the target audience for one’s own ends.

4. The rule of unanimity: presenting one's viewpoint as if it is the unanimous opinion of all right-thinking people; including drawing doubting individuals into agreement by the appeal of star-performers, social pressure and by ‘psychological contagion, aka psy-ops.

5. The rule of orchestration: endlessly repeating the same message; in different variations and combinations."

Popper, you can't really believe that there is any difference between progressive leaders and conservative leaders when it comes to using this "propaganda" template.

[dobrojim]

One might wonder if there was something specific that happened today that set off anyone.

[dckingsfan]

1. I would say that we don't have the growth to provide new jobs to our college graduates.

2. I would say that we have too large a debt burden on our college graduates.

3. I would say that we aren't investing enough in infrastructure.

4. I would say that our entitlement payment system is out of whack and unsustainable.

5. I would say at the local level, we have many municipalities that are essentially bankrupt.

6. I would say that we haven't had a good foreign policy in 20+ years.

7. I would say that we spend too much on defense and have no way of reigning in those expenditures.

Not a bad list DCK -
1. austerity hasn't been shown to be very effective in promoting growth. Where has it
actually and conclusively worked?

2. college needs to be more affordable. The generally higher wages earned by degree'd
folks will promote a more virtuous cycle, more broadly shared prosperity, than the system
in place now. If not college, which I am not saying is for everyone, than trade/vocational
schools. Young people can see what is around them. If the opportunities are scarce, then
optimism and motivation are more difficult to sustain.

3. Couldn't agree more. Number 2 is just human infrastructure as opposed to physical entities.
Both are deserving of greater investment. Both will pay off long term.

[I lay 1-3 at the feet of the Grover Norquist acolytes who sincerely believe the govt
is incapable of doing anything right and therefore are reflexively opposed to
all taxes and especially any new taxes. I have a somewhat more nuanced and certainly
more optimistic view than they do.]

4. Agree but I would say it's not as far out of whack as many believe. A modest increase in
the current cap threshold on paying into the system would make it solvent for the foreseeable
future. Soc Sec has been the most successful anti-poverty program in the history of the world.
Relatively minor adjustments would sustain it indefinitely or at least as far out as we can
accurately predict.

5. Improvements in addressing items 1-3 would help here.

6. 20 + 45 years; basically since the rise of the defense/congressional military industrial complex
post WWII. We need to be more rational when it comes to assessing what constitutes a genuine
threat. We don't need military bases in over 100 foreign countries or military spending greater
than the combined total of the next umpteen countries. We need to stop letting private
commercial interests drive a militarist foreign policy. And we need to stop letting the loudest,
most terrified screamers scare the rest of us into "solutions" that leave us long term in the same
place as we had been but only more broke.

7. see #6. Very interconnected.

Yep, dob - and the problem with the list is that neither party has very good answers. I don't see good answers, sustainable answers coming from either party. Watching so many municipalities heading two Detroit is really disturbing.

And remember, this is in response to the "America is doing great, doesn't have any major problems, head in the sand response".

[dobrojim]

I see entrenched interests with money that pays off handsomely to invest as being a major impediment.
Then you have the whole issue of gerrymandering where politics has been turned on its head and politicians
pick voters instead of vice versa. All that said, we're way better off than a lot of places although not as
well off as some others when it comes to analyzing our problems and implementing effective solutions.

[TheSecretWeapon]

I see entrenched interests with money that pays off handsomely to invest as being a major impediment.
Then you have the whole issue of gerrymandering where politics has been turned on its head and politicians
pick voters instead of vice versa. All that said, we're way better off than a lot of places although not as
well off as some others when it comes to analyzing our problems and implementing effective solutions.

One of the more amusing political conversations I've had semi-recently was with a Canadian business executive. I was attempting to explain the concept of "gerrymandering" to him, but the whole concept of partisans creating electoral districts was foreign to him. He told me that in Canada, the election boundaries are drawn by independent commissions, and go through a public review/comment process before being finalized.

When I did some reading on the subject, I did find a case maybe 10 years ago where a province government rejected the boundary commission's electoral district and proposed a different map that gave every incumbent member of the governing party a safe seat to run in. The commission's original map would have forced some incumbents to run against each other.

[Induveca]

One might wonder if there was something specific that happened today that set off anyone.

No ****. Some of the most intelligent posters on the board have descended into puppet string controlled boisterous party advocates today.

At least it's a fun read.

[Induveca]

I see entrenched interests with money that pays off handsomely to invest as being a major impediment.
Then you have the whole issue of gerrymandering where politics has been turned on its head and politicians
pick voters instead of vice versa. All that said, we're way better off than a lot of places although not as
well off as some others when it comes to analyzing our problems and implementing effective solutions.

One of the more amusing political conversations I've had semi-recently was with a Canadian business executive. I was attempting to explain the concept of "gerrymandering" to him, but the whole concept of partisans creating electoral districts was foreign to him. He told me that in Canada, the election boundaries are drawn by independent commissions, and go through a public review/comment process before being finalized.

When I did some reading on the subject, I did find a case maybe 10 years ago where a province government rejected the boundary commission's electoral district and proposed a different map that gave every incumbent member of the governing party a safe seat to run in. The commission's original map would have forced some incumbents to run against each other.

I assure you, Quebec is very much party focused and corrupt as hell . English speaking Canada, no clue.

http://www.nationalpost.com/m/wp/blog.html?b=news.nationalpost.com//full-comment/sam-allison-quebecs-gerrymandered-riding-map

[dobrojim]

I'm sure there are people who are also voters who are blissfully unaware of the
careful research that is done in drawing political boundaries. That is actually
one of the biggest differences between now and 50 or 100 years ago. The people
charged with doing this for their respective parties have much more sophisticated
tools than was ever imagined in years past.

[popper]

I doubt the average person realizes that the progressive leadership promotes the bulk of their policy agenda using the “Five Basic Rules of Propaganda” template.
( described in Norman Davies book “Europe, a History”, Oxford University Press, 1996, pp 500-501)

Try it out for yourself. It’s fun. Take any popular progressive cause and load it into the propaganda template below to understand how the masses are manipulated.

1. The rule of simplification: reducing all data to a simple confrontation between 'Good and Bad', 'Friend and Foe'.

2. The rule of disfiguration: discrediting the opposition by crude smears and parodies.

3. The rule of transfusion: manipulating the consensus values of the target audience for one’s own ends.

4. The rule of unanimity: presenting one's viewpoint as if it is the unanimous opinion of all right-thinking people; including drawing doubting individuals into agreement by the appeal of star-performers, social pressure and by ‘psychological contagion, aka psy-ops.

5. The rule of orchestration: endlessly repeating the same message; in different variations and combinations."

Popper, you can't really believe that there is any difference between progressive leaders and conservative leaders when it comes to using this "propaganda" template.

I do DCZ. I've seen individual R's use some form of the template but it has almost no effect when applied on an isolated ad hoc basis. D's coordinate the messaging much more effectively than R's and are able to apply their agenda to the template using a corrupt media and academia to deepen the manipulation. IMO it's an orchestrated tactic that's very effective in influencing public opinion. Not sure why the R's don't jump on board -- maybe the fact that approx. 80% of media and academia are progressives has something to do with it.

[crackhed]

General question for the board: In what way is the U.S. doing badly now, I'm curious? Other than having an African American president, which makes racists angry, what exactly is going so wrong? And among those things going wrong, what is your claim about what Obama should be doing about it?

Let's make it challenging. Provide me something that takes longer than thirty seconds to rebut.

zonk actually the conversation began with a specific quote from Carter - noting that he couldn't think of a place in the world where our diplomatic standing had improved since the president came into office.

i would say cuba, but feel free to have at it if u like

[hands11]

What troubles me most about this administration is the "ends justify the means" approach to governance and the appointment of federal judges (especially Supreme) who believe, as the president does, that the Constitution is a "living document". With the former, we lose our soul as a country, with the latter, the rule of law takes a back seat to raw political power.

Popper, the last thing you should complain about is Supreme Court appointments. Presidents from both parties have operated pretty much the exact same way when it comes to these appointments. When there's a Republican president he typically appoints SC justices whose interpretation of the Constitution is consistent with the views of conservatives. (Do you have a problem with those appointments?) The Obama administration is simply doing the same from the progressive/liberal perspective.

That's the nature of the beast...and it's also one of the reasons why presidential elections are so important. To the victor goes the spoils.

I don't have a problem with justices of any party provided they interpret the Constitution in a originalist fashion. In fact for the first 130 years of our existence most Dem appointed Supremes did so. Dems understood sometime ago that the American public would not support much of their progressive agenda and so the "living Constitution" movement took hold. That way they could expand federal authority without going through the amendment process (where their chances of success were dubious at best). I've disagreed with interpretations of some R justices as well when they try to read in to the constitution meaning that doesn't exist.

We should all fight hard to ensure that your last observation regarding victors and spoils is rejected and that honest and fair govt. triumphs in the end. I'm not holding my breath.

You mean like... corporations are people and money equals free speach ?

Two of the most destructive things to our democracy and the major reason the government is so bought by their corporate and trillionaire over lords and the military industrial complex.

[hands11]

I doubt the average person realizes that the progressive leadership promotes the bulk of their policy agenda using the “Five Basic Rules of Propaganda” template.
( described in Norman Davies book “Europe, a History”, Oxford University Press, 1996, pp 500-501)

Try it out for yourself. It’s fun. Take any popular progressive cause and load it into the propaganda template below to understand how the masses are manipulated.

1. The rule of simplification: reducing all data to a simple confrontation between 'Good and Bad', 'Friend and Foe'.

2. The rule of disfiguration: discrediting the opposition by crude smears and parodies.

3. The rule of transfusion: manipulating the consensus values of the target audience for one’s own ends.

4. The rule of unanimity: presenting one's viewpoint as if it is the unanimous opinion of all right-thinking people; including drawing doubting individuals into agreement by the appeal of star-performers, social pressure and by ‘psychological contagion, aka psy-ops.

5. The rule of orchestration: endlessly repeating the same message; in different variations and combinations."

Popper... That is exactly what right wing/fox tabloid news have been doing for 25 years. And the way they get away with it is sickening..

They convince you its the other side doing it by actually directing you to the very thing they are doing themselves. Up is down. Down it up. Just keep telling a lie long enough and people will believe it. No substance. Just spin and Propaganda. That is the Republican party.

Listen to Rush for just 10 mins.. Its all he does.

Its been a while since i have been in here. Seems no progress has been made in here. Still going in circles over the same stuff.

Meanwhile, real social progress is being made in the country. And with little to no help from the Republicans who have fought, delay, tricked, schemed and power grabbed at every turn against progress. But eventually, progress happens anyway.

But Democracy wins the day. States still do retain their power and they are exercising it. Stupid government/human assets wasting programs like criminalizing marijuana are ending. Abominations of civil decency like that Confederate flag hanging in state capitol building are being taken down. Facts like climate change are sinking in. Even to Republicans.

Nothing speaks louder of the state of the Republicans Party then the Donald leading in their polls. That party makes a circus of our political process every presidential election cycle. They make our electoral process into a reality tv show. Honey Bo Bo.

The Republican party is still in total turmoil. Donald Trump.. So he quit his show for a big reality tv show.. Trumps comedy tour...I'm running for President.. This is what a Republican looks like... ba dump..

I mean Trump is amazing... he tweated he had 15000 people in PHx.. Bigger then Berney Sanders 10,000 people crowd. I mean, getting 15000 people in a hall that max hold 4200 is something only The Donald can do.

But never let facts get in the way. it only matters what you tell people the truth is. Like there is no climate change. And the new voter law aren't to discriminate against minorities. And that decriminalizing weed means you are promoting it. And you know, the Confederate Flag is about Southern Heritage, not racism.

[hands11]

I doubt the average person realizes that the progressive leadership promotes the bulk of their policy agenda using the “Five Basic Rules of Propaganda” template.
( described in Norman Davies book “Europe, a History”, Oxford University Press, 1996, pp 500-501)

Try it out for yourself. It’s fun. Take any popular progressive cause and load it into the propaganda template below to understand how the masses are manipulated.

1. The rule of simplification: reducing all data to a simple confrontation between 'Good and Bad', 'Friend and Foe'.

2. The rule of disfiguration: discrediting the opposition by crude smears and parodies.

3. The rule of transfusion: manipulating the consensus values of the target audience for one’s own ends.

4. The rule of unanimity: presenting one's viewpoint as if it is the unanimous opinion of all right-thinking people; including drawing doubting individuals into agreement by the appeal of star-performers, social pressure and by ‘psychological contagion, aka psy-ops.

5. The rule of orchestration: endlessly repeating the same message; in different variations and combinations."

Popper, you can't really believe that there is any difference between progressive leaders and conservative leaders when it comes to using this "propaganda" template.

I do DCZ. I've seen individual R's use some form of the template but it has almost no effect when applied on an isolated ad hoc basis. D's coordinate the messaging much more effectively than R's and are able to apply their agenda to the template using a corrupt media and academia to deepen the manipulation. IMO it's an orchestrated tactic that's very effective in influencing public opinion. Not sure why the R's don't jump on board -- maybe the fact that approx. 80% of media and academia are progressives has something to do with it.

Amazingly interesting to see something like that written. The Republican party had been a machine for 40 years.

Admittedly, that machine is falling apart because it ran itself off a cliff of fear mongering, war, whiteness and southern strategy racism and over stepping the role of born again Christian values in government.

Scott Walker will be the R Candidate this year. This country is never going to elect another Bush. Just not going to happen.

Walker is a conservative. Lets see how the country takes to him once they learn who he is. He is a less fat version of Chris Christy.

I suspect its more like Hilary is your next president. The country is moving toward being more constitutionally sound which is all about civil rights, equal treatment and separation of church and state. Democrat have more cred economically then Republicans do and Clinton was a good president. We just had our first black president and he was very successful. I think the country will elect its first women next.

[Zonkerbl]

Popper you are hilarious. How can someone who does nothing but regurgitate conservative propaganda in this thread claim anything about progressive propaganda? You have absolutely no credibility on this subject. None.

Have you heard the expression "the pot calling the kettle black"?

[Zonkerbl]

I would say almost everything.

The former Attorney General was held in contempt of congress on a bipartisan vote.

The IRS’s Lois Lerner pleads the fifth so as not to incriminate herself.

The VA is a disaster.

Obama drags his feet on appointing Inspectors General. It takes him twice as long as previous presidents to fill these important positions. I think the State Dept was without one for five years.

ACA – Obama lied repeatedly about keeping your doctor and keeping your plan to get ACA passed. He lied to Stephanopoulos when he argued that the ACA penalty was not a tax, and then when challenged in court, argued before SCOTUS that it was, in fact, a tax. As the law began to take effect, he delayed implementation of key parts to bolster his chances for reelection (many argue this action was a gross violation of federal law and is now being litigated).

Illegal Immigration – Obama has taken executive action in a number of areas (many believe in violation of federal law) that are now being litigated. His latest action has been frozen by a federal judge and upheld by an appeals court in New Orleans pending a full hearing.

More than two hundred American cities provide sanctuary to illegal immigrants. The cities are in clear violation of federal immigration law. Obama has turned a blind eye to this usurpation of federal authority. Thus, many American citizens have been killed, raped, molested and robbed as criminal aliens are released back onto our streets.

The Russian reset was an abject failure. They invaded Ukraine. Further moves into the Baltic States are anticipated.

The president bragged that Iraq was a stable success story and pulled all remaining troops out and the resulting vacuum was filled by ISIS and Iran.

Obama’s “Red Line” in Syria was crossed and our inaction facilitated the expansion of ISIS.

We attacked Libya and overthrew its leader and now that country is ungovernable.

National debt will have roughly doubled in Obama’s term in office.

Labor participation rates are an embarrassment.

Race relations are as bad as I have ever seen them.

China is building military islands in the South China Sea to control those important shipping lanes.

OPM was hacked and now China has the intimate details of 21 million Americans, including those in sensitive defense and intelligence positions. His appointee, a former political director/hack, resigned under bipartisan duress.

I could go on and on but it’s too depressing.

You failed the homework assignment, Popper. Reading comprehension is key. What should Obama have done? Quit being a coward and stand forward with some of your own proposals. What does your conservative propaganda machine have to say about how Obama should have reacted in Syria? Libya? ISIS? Would a GoP president have prevented the OPM hack?

Do any of these things have a direct impact on your life Popper? Is your life worse because Russia invaded Ukraine? Or is it none of your damn business and you should stop beating the conservative military adventure war drum?

ISIS is ****ing Saudi Arabia's problem. The EU's problem. They have the money - let them ****ing fix it.

[popper]

Popper you are hilarious. How can someone who does nothing but regurgitate conservative propaganda in this thread claim anything about progressive propaganda? You have absolutely no credibility on this subject. None.

Have you heard the expression "the pot calling the kettle black"?

IMO you're deceiving yourself if you don't recognize that my previous post on the propaganda template is true. You and others can argue that R's use it as well. That's fine, but I don't think that's accurate.

[popper]

I would say almost everything.

The former Attorney General was held in contempt of congress on a bipartisan vote.

The IRS’s Lois Lerner pleads the fifth so as not to incriminate herself.

The VA is a disaster.

Obama drags his feet on appointing Inspectors General. It takes him twice as long as previous presidents to fill these important positions. I think the State Dept was without one for five years.

ACA – Obama lied repeatedly about keeping your doctor and keeping your plan to get ACA passed. He lied to Stephanopoulos when he argued that the ACA penalty was not a tax, and then when challenged in court, argued before SCOTUS that it was, in fact, a tax. As the law began to take effect, he delayed implementation of key parts to bolster his chances for reelection (many argue this action was a gross violation of federal law and is now being litigated).

Illegal Immigration – Obama has taken executive action in a number of areas (many believe in violation of federal law) that are now being litigated. His latest action has been frozen by a federal judge and upheld by an appeals court in New Orleans pending a full hearing.

More than two hundred American cities provide sanctuary to illegal immigrants. The cities are in clear violation of federal immigration law. Obama has turned a blind eye to this usurpation of federal authority. Thus, many American citizens have been killed, raped, molested and robbed as criminal aliens are released back onto our streets.

The Russian reset was an abject failure. They invaded Ukraine. Further moves into the Baltic States are anticipated.

The president bragged that Iraq was a stable success story and pulled all remaining troops out and the resulting vacuum was filled by ISIS and Iran.

Obama’s “Red Line” in Syria was crossed and our inaction facilitated the expansion of ISIS.

We attacked Libya and overthrew its leader and now that country is ungovernable.

National debt will have roughly doubled in Obama’s term in office.

Labor participation rates are an embarrassment.

Race relations are as bad as I have ever seen them.

China is building military islands in the South China Sea to control those important shipping lanes.

OPM was hacked and now China has the intimate details of 21 million Americans, including those in sensitive defense and intelligence positions. His appointee, a former political director/hack, resigned under bipartisan duress.

I could go on and on but it’s too depressing.

You failed the homework assignment, Popper. Reading comprehension is key. What should Obama have done? Quit being a coward and stand forward with some of your own proposals. What does your conservative propaganda machine have to say about how Obama should have reacted in Syria? Libya? ISIS? Would a GoP president have prevented the OPM hack?

Do any of these things have a direct impact on your life Popper? Is your life worse because Russia invaded Ukraine? Or is it none of your damn business and you should stop beating the conservative military adventure war drum?

ISIS is ****ing Saudi Arabia's problem. The EU's problem. They have the money - let them ****ing fix it.

Russia's invasion of Ukraine is our business because ...................

The Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances is a political agreement signed in Budapest, Hungary on 5 December 1994, providing security assurances by its signatories relating to Ukraine's accession to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons. The Memorandum was originally signed by three nuclear powers, the Russian Federation, the United States of America, and the United Kingdom. China and France gave somewhat weaker individual assurances in separate documents.[1]

The memorandum included security assurances against threats or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Ukraine as well as those of Belarus and Kazakhstan. As a result Ukraine gave up the world's third largest nuclear weapons stockpile between 1994 and 1996,[2][3] of which Ukraine had physical though not operational control.[citation needed] The use of the weapons was dependent on Russian-controlled electronic Permissive Action Links and the Russian command and control system.[4][5]