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Suns Offseason Thread 4: Where's Terrence Williams?

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Re: Suns Offseason Thread 4: Where's Terrence Williams? 

Post#101 » by JTrain » Tue Jul 14, 2015 6:54 am

SF88 wrote:
LV-Suns wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
Interesting. Personally that doesn't matter to me...he is on his off time and in Vegas. I might be doing the same. But sometimes guys with DUI's might think about changing their habits if it impacts their job (and it has with him).


He wasn't out of control or anything. Him, his few friends and girls had a cabana and enjoying a little bit of Vegas. He is definitely a big guy. But I was shocked how out of shape he looked for a NBA player, that was almost Diaw esque.

Tucker played most of last season out of shape. I think quite a few of us noticed it and commented on it in the first couple months of the season but then later we had bigger things to worry about so it was kind of forgotten or he worked himself into shape.


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Re: Suns Offseason Thread 4: Where's Terrence Williams? 

Post#102 » by AtheJ415 » Tue Jul 14, 2015 7:00 am

If the nets are really serious about getting more money off the books, we should offer PJ and a 2nd for Jarrett Jack and Rondae
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Re: Suns Offseason Thread 4: Where's Terrence Williams? 

Post#103 » by bwgood77 » Tue Jul 14, 2015 7:04 am

AtheJ415 wrote:If the nets are really serious about getting more money off the books, we should offer PJ and a 2nd for Jarrett Jack and Rondae


They are obviously unloading vets to rebuild and traded Mason for Rondae...if they traded him I would be shocked.
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Re: Suns Offseason Thread 4: Where's Terrence Williams? 

Post#104 » by Qwigglez » Tue Jul 14, 2015 7:06 am

Mason was young too though, I don't know why they traded him. He didn't play bad last year. Plus they just signed Brook Lopez to a max deal. I honestly don't know what the Nets are doing.
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Re: Suns Offseason Thread 4: Where's Terrence Williams? 

Post#105 » by AtheJ415 » Tue Jul 14, 2015 7:25 am

bwgood77 wrote:
AtheJ415 wrote:If the nets are really serious about getting more money off the books, we should offer PJ and a 2nd for Jarrett Jack and Rondae


They are obviously unloading vets to rebuild and traded Mason for Rondae...if they traded him I would be shocked.


I'm not sure they're really rebuilding so much as trying to save money. For instance, there are conflicting reports on what they will do with Quincy Miller, who is 22 and should be a guy you unquestionably bring in when you have no cap space and Boston has all your future picks.
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Re: Suns Offseason Thread 4: Where's Terrence Williams? 

Post#106 » by gaspar » Tue Jul 14, 2015 8:07 am

AtheJ415 wrote:Well, he dropped multiple career highs playing the 4 in the 2nd half of this season (40 and 47 respectively).

He played PF in only one of those games and in the second one (loss vs Mavs) he was abused on defense by Richard Jefferson IIRC.

And I think he's better offensively.

That's disputable IMO.

Kieff has a better post game, but that's it.

And that's a HUGE advantage in Keef's favor, since none of our remaining bigs has any post moves at all. Gallinari in big part replicates Teletovic's skillset.

Galinari's the better shooter,

Only from three (31.8% vs 35.5%). Keef is better from mid range (44.5% vs 38.8%)

more versatile scorer,

That's debatable. Last season he shot more threes than twos. That's not something you would expect from a versatile scorer. And Keef is versatile too. He can post up, face up and shoot threes.

can pass much better,

Can he?

Assists per 100 possessions:
Markieff career: 3.3
Markieff 2014/2015: 3.7
Gallinari career: 3.1
Gallinari 2014/2015: 2.9

has a better handle.

Yup.

Neither rebound or defend well.

And Markieff is still much, MUCH better than Gallo. Gallinari is a below average rebounder even for a small forward.

Rebounds per 100 possessions
Markieff career: 10.8
Markieff 2014/2015: 9.8
Gallinari career: 7.5
Gallinari 2014/2015: 7.6

DRPM:
Markieff 3.03
Gallinari -0.07

Defensive Rating:
Markieff 101.4
Gallinari 103.3

Opponents PPP on post-ups:
Markieff 0.81 (194 poss)
Gallinari 1.00 (61 poss)

If Gallo had to defend big men in the post as often as Keef does, his body would completely break down after 15 games.

Galinari can play the 3 also, which adds value. Kieff can't really play the 5 even though we stuck him there at times last year.

I'd rather have Keef playing C than Gallo PF, but that's just me.

I think you could argue Kieff with his contract and being a few months younger makes him the guy you want.

For me that's not even a question.
But Gallinari is the player with more potential imo,

Why? Because he's not wearing the Suns uniform? That's how it usually works on this forum.

and he's also the better fit.

Is he really? I think we need a big who can score in the post much more than we need a stretch PF. As I said earlier, I think Teletovic largely replicates what Gallo brings to the table.

I'm pretty torn on it. That's why I'd just trade Tucker and keep Kieff. Brightside said we still have about 4.5-5.5 to use in a trade. Add Tucker's 5 and that should come close to Galinari's salary.

There's no question to me that for a team wanting to win in the long-run Tucker is the worst value of the 3 players in question. And we have the other assets to get him without dropping Kieff. Even if you trade a pick, it's for a 26 year old, so that's not really a big deal.

I definitely wouldn't mind Gallo as our starting SF, but we can't trade for him without losing Keef, Len or Warren, so that's a non-starter for me.
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Re: Suns Offseason Thread 4: Where's Terrence Williams? 

Post#107 » by asudevil » Tue Jul 14, 2015 8:18 am

Qwigglez wrote:I would do Kieff/Mirza(or Tucker) for Gallinari/Faried though.


If there is a trade i'd do it would be Kieff/Tucker for Galli/Faried. We've have to include someone like Thorton as part of it in a S&T, and a pick to make it a little better.

Maybe

Suns trade: Kieff/Tucker//2016 Cleveland First/Thorton (S&T 2 year $9mil) Thorton is needed for salary purposes
Suns get: Faried/Galli

I see that team as a legit playoff contender. It has defense and 3pt shooting, and the combinations of players is crazy. Teams would have a very hard time matching up with us.

Chander/Len
Faried/Tele
Galli/Warren/Weems
Bledsoe/Goodwin/Boo
Knight/Bledsoe/McConnel

Nugs trade: Faried/Galli
Nugs get: Kieff/Tucker/2016 Cleveland First/Haywood (releaed)

With the roster they have assembled i dont see them contending for anything. And i dont see them locking up Galli after this season either (I could be wrong, they just locked up WIlson Chandler). Here they get a versatile PF in Kieff, and an outside 3D guy in Tucker.

Cavs trade: Haywood
Cavs get: Thorton (S&T 2 year $9mil)

Cavs get a cheap replacement for JR. With JR looking at something stupid like 3/24, Thorton gives them a cheap alternative.
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Re: Suns Offseason Thread 4: Where's Terrence Williams? 

Post#108 » by gaspar » Tue Jul 14, 2015 8:37 am

asudevil wrote:
Qwigglez wrote:I would do Kieff/Mirza(or Tucker) for Gallinari/Faried though.


If there is a trade i'd do it would be Kieff/Tucker for Galli/Faried. We've have to include someone like Thorton as part of it in a S&T, and a pick to make it a little better.

Maybe

Suns trade: Kieff/Tucker//2016 Cleveland First/Thorton (S&T 2 year $9mil) Thorton is needed for salary purposes
Suns get: Faried/Galli

I see that team as a legit playoff contender. It has defense and 3pt shooting, and the combinations of players is crazy. Teams would have a very hard time matching up with us.

Chander/Len
Faried/Tele
Galli/Warren/Weems
Bledsoe/Goodwin/Boo
Knight/Bledsoe/McConnel

Nugs trade: Faried/Galli
Nugs get: Kieff/Tucker/2016 Cleveland First/Haywood (releaed)

With the roster they have assembled i dont see them contending for anything. And i dont see them locking up Galli after this season either (I could be wrong, they just locked up WIlson Chandler). Here they get a versatile PF in Kieff, and an outside 3D guy in Tucker.

Cavs trade: Haywood
Cavs get: Thorton (S&T 2 year $9mil)

Cavs get a cheap replacement for JR. With JR looking at something stupid like 3/24, Thorton gives them a cheap alternative.

Thornton signed with the Rockets yesterday.

Faried is a train wreck defensively, has no range beyond 5 ft from the basket and his teammates hate him.

IMO Keef and Tucker complement each other much better than Gallo and Faried. They also have much better contracts.
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Re: Suns Offseason Thread 4: Where's Terrence Williams? 

Post#109 » by asudevil » Tue Jul 14, 2015 8:55 am

gaspar wrote:Thornton signed with the Rockets yesterday.

Faried is a train wreck defensively, has no range beyond 5 ft from the basket and his teammates hate him.

IMO Keef and Tucker complement each other much better than Gallo and Faried. They also have much better contracts.


Well balls...didnt see that in the wiretap.

I feel like Faried is one of those help defenders, which would have been nice next to Chandler/Len.

I woudnt trade either or Faried/Galli for Markieff straight up though.
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Re: Suns Offseason Thread 4: Where's Terrence Williams? 

Post#110 » by Mulhollanddrive » Tue Jul 14, 2015 9:07 am

Morris blocks, rebounds and attempts within 3 feet were at career lows last season.

He needs to not become just a streaky mid range shooter. Be a factor around the rim on defence and offense.

I think he can do it, if he's willing to do the actual dirty work, not starting fights and getting techs.

If he does that he can be very valuable, maybe even Paul Millsap in the future, if not then his ceiling is a starter on a mediocre team who needs a star C to protect him.
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Re: Suns Offseason Thread 4: Where's Terrence Williams? 

Post#111 » by thamadkant » Tue Jul 14, 2015 9:44 am

Faried has nice W/S per 48 numbers, he also passes the eye test. I really like his hustle defensively and on the offensive boards.
And will suit a fast tempo game. He is owed 12 million a year though.

Mirotic's numbers are very close to Morris, but he is a better fit for the Suns IMO... due to his 3pt abilities.
Some here thinks Bulls wont do it, but give them Morris and Tucker, they may reconsider.... I would take back Mirotic and a filler contract. Heck, if they dont want Tucker, maybe give them a first rounder with Morris.
I think with starter minutes, Mirotic will blow up, especially in a fast tempo offense.
Bulls need help scoring in isolation situations, Morris will be better off there, as proven when Gasol got injured, they lacked that big man who can score individually.... their tempo also allows Morris to post up and get his positioning.
I think its a good trade for both.
McDermott is also looking nice in the summer league and with Thibs gone, I think McDermott will play SF minutes for Bulls hence fixing their 3pt specialist needs.
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Re: Suns Offseason Thread 4: Where's Terrence Williams? 

Post#112 » by batsmasher » Tue Jul 14, 2015 10:12 am

Y'all are talking like used car salesmen lol. Every player not on our team is a god and our team is full of scrubs apparently.

Here's the problem I have with all this trade talk: seldom do you find players at market value who become better versions of themselves at the Suns. Beas was supposed to be our $7 million man in 2012. IT was supposed to be our superstar 6th man last year.

All the "good" signings and trades have all been more or less lucky. Goran signed for $7.5 mill in rather low key circumstances, and turned into an All-NBA'er. PJ came from the obscure setting of Euro-MVP and turned into a starter. Gerald came from buried in the bench at the Pacers and turned into a key guy off the bench for us. The only exception to this rule is Bled, who everyone knew was a star in the making, but somehow joined the Suns way under value thanks to the Clippers cap situation.

All the value lies in the "unknown quantities", not the guys like Danilo or Faried. That's why I'm rather optimistic about Weems' chances to surprise us Suns fans this year. He's been out of the eye of intense critique for 4 years, which means he really could be anything.

You're not going to find "good" value in the trade market unless you're trading for a star or a player in an exceptional circumstance (eg Bled and the Clips). Established players don't suddenly excel because they come to a new team. A different coach and a fresh start doesn't suddenly make a guy play better defense (see: Kanter) or become less of a liability offensively (see: Asik). In summary: the really critical trades and signings this team makes are the ones that the fans initially go "meh" to. But over time, they grow, and we grow to love them. They're the way you jump ahead of the pack (think Draymond with GSW)

As an aside: no way McD trades Kieff, the guy he is so high on whilst his value is this low. The Mirza signing gives us a great deal more flexibility in when we need to trade Kieff. There is no urgency to the matter. McD will wait until all the dust settles and the assault case is resolved, at a minimum, before he even considers trading Kieff. Because until then, the offers he'll be getting from GMs around the league will be way below what McD rates Kieff at.
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Re: Suns Offseason Thread 4: Where's Terrence Williams? 

Post#113 » by Frank Lee » Tue Jul 14, 2015 10:23 am

bwgood77 wrote:
LV-Suns wrote:On a random note.. PJ Tucker was at the pool that I worked at today drinking all day :D

The whole sixers team were there too, too bad none of them were 21 to go up to the adult only pool.


Interesting. Personally that doesn't matter to me...he is on his off time and in Vegas. I might be doing the same. But sometimes guys with DUI's might think about changing their habits if it impacts their job (and it has with him).



As long as he doesn't Drink and Dive, I have no problem with it
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Re: Suns Offseason Thread 4: Where's Terrence Williams? 

Post#114 » by DRK » Tue Jul 14, 2015 12:12 pm

LV-Suns wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
LV-Suns wrote:On a random note.. PJ Tucker was at the pool that I worked at today drinking all day :D

The whole sixers team were there too, too bad none of them were 21 to go up to the adult only pool.


Interesting. Personally that doesn't matter to me...he is on his off time and in Vegas. I might be doing the same. But sometimes guys with DUI's might think about changing their habits if it impacts their job (and it has with him).


He wasn't out of control or anything. Him, his few friends and girls had a cabana and enjoying a little bit of Vegas. He is definitely a big guy. But I was shocked how out of shape he looked for a NBA player, that was almost Diaw esque.


Totally shoulda spiked his drink with some banned substance so he gets banned for a season and Horny is forced to play Warren and Goodwin 30 minutes a night.

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Re: Suns Offseason Thread 4: Where's Terrence Williams? 

Post#115 » by Kerrsed » Tue Jul 14, 2015 12:57 pm

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Re: Suns Offseason Thread 4: Where's Terrence Williams? 

Post#116 » by TASTIC » Tue Jul 14, 2015 1:05 pm

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Re: Suns Offseason Thread 4: Where's Terrence Williams? 

Post#117 » by batsmasher » Tue Jul 14, 2015 1:05 pm

Lowe with a ripper article about rebuilding: Suns vs Philly style.

http://grantland.com/the-triangle/a-tale-of-two-cities-phoenix-and-philly-plot-different-courses-to-contention/

Lots of nuggets of new info too.
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Re: Suns Offseason Thread 4: Where's Terrence Williams? 

Post#118 » by BobbieL » Tue Jul 14, 2015 1:29 pm

Kerrsed wrote:Image


Too bad can't figure a way to use PJ tucker for Brendon Haywood and flip Haywood for Novak and Perry Jones
Novak can shoot the ball. Both players are on one year deals so opens cap space with Tuckers contract for the next year

As for trading Keiff for Danilo - not a fan of that trade. I think for this team, Kieff is better for this team. He has mid range game and should rebound more
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Re: Suns Offseason Thread 4: Where's Terrence Williams? 

Post#119 » by BobbieL » Tue Jul 14, 2015 1:31 pm

batsmasher wrote:Lowe with a ripper article about rebuilding: Suns vs Philly style.

http://grantland.com/the-triangle/a-tale-of-two-cities-phoenix-and-philly-plot-different-courses-to-contention/

Lots of nuggets of new info too.


Interesting read. I had a feeling Sarvers impatience could be a problematic. Making Ryan do moves he shouldn't

I do agree with HOrnacek - if this team got Aldridge for Markieff, top 4 team in the West

I still think they are much better than last year. 39 wins a year ago with crappy chemistry, too many "I" guys and not enough "team" guys and they lost 18 games by 5 points or less and three games (Middleton, Griffn and Cousins) on buzzer beaters on shots that were lucky. I think if Kieff improves without his brother, they are top 6 team. Don't crown the Spurs yet - they have lost a lot of talent. And if anything, are older, not younger.
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Re: Suns Offseason Thread 4: Where's Terrence Williams? 

Post#120 » by nevetsov » Tue Jul 14, 2015 1:47 pm

Gallinari at PF has the failed Hedo Turkoglu experiment written all over it.

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