Zach Lowe article on Suns and Sixers rebuild going in different directions

[MrMiyagi]

I love how everyone is idolizing Philly who has won......... what exactly? They haven't even won the draft lottery..... I'll take my Suns any day, thanks.

[Mr Puddles]

Your definition of treadmill doesn't really line up with what I think the consensus definition is. Philly are tankers, not "really slow treadmillers". It's called a treadmill because those teams are too good to get transformative draft picks, yet are not real title contenders.

When the playoffs start, if you have a legit shot at the title, you're not a treadmill team.

Everybody has a different definition of what a treadmill team is. GS obviously had a shot when the playoffs started but before the season, I guarantee there were people calling them a treadmill team. A team like the Dallas Mavericks were the definition of a treadmill team before the 10-11 season with 4 or 5 first round exits in a row and Bam, add a player like Tyson Chandler and they win the Championship.

The 2004 Pistons were a solid playoff team coming into the season with ZERO shot to win a championship any time soon, find a way to add that missing piece in Sheed and the rest is history. Wonder how many people would have wanted to blown that team up?

Meanwhile, The Spurs tank for Tim Duncan 20 years ago and it worked so now everyone thinks its the way to go. What they probably don't remember is the Spurs were already a good team and organization who had a down year. They weren't a terrible team who decided to get more terrible.

Even Miami was decent if I remember correctly in the years leading up to Wade and only started to suck when ZO got sick and had one, maybe 2 down years.

Great post. You never know what a team might be capable of. If they go 5 years or so with the same results with an aging roster, I think it is rare they change. Dallas did, but they also had a top 5 player at the time. Any team with a superstar has that chance.

Agree, good post.

also on:

The Spurs tank for Tim Duncan 20 years ago and it worked so now everyone thinks its the way to go. What they probably don't remember is the Spurs were already a good team and organization who had a down year.

They also beat incredible odds to get the number 1 pick over the Celtics. In a way, the Duncan pick shows that the tanking ISN't the way to go. The Celtics not only had the best odds of winning the draft with their own pick, but a second lottery pick as well giving them a 36 percent chance of getting the #1 - and all they had to show for it in the end was 50 games of Chauncey Billups and Ron Mercer. Always find it interesting how often that gets left out in the whole "spurs build a championship team by tanking for Duncan" story.

[mksp]

I love how everyone is idolizing Philly who has won......... what exactly? They haven't even won the draft lottery..... I'll take my Suns any day, thanks.

And the Suns have won....what, exactly?

Yeah, that's the point.

Cognitive dissonance is a b****.

[Ponchos]

Everybody has a different definition of what a treadmill team is. GS obviously had a shot when the playoffs started but before the season, I guarantee there were people calling them a treadmill team. A team like the Dallas Mavericks were the definition of a treadmill team before the 10-11 season with 4 or 5 first round exits in a row and Bam, add a player like Tyson Chandler and they win the Championship.

The 2004 Pistons were a solid playoff team coming into the season with ZERO shot to win a championship any time soon, find a way to add that missing piece in Sheed and the rest is history. Wonder how many people would have wanted to blown that team up?

Meanwhile, The Spurs tank for Tim Duncan 20 years ago and it worked so now everyone thinks its the way to go. What they probably don't remember is the Spurs were already a good team and organization who had a down year. They weren't a terrible team who decided to get more terrible.

Even Miami was decent if I remember correctly in the years leading up to Wade and only started to suck when ZO got sick and had one, maybe 2 down years.

Great post. You never know what a team might be capable of. If they go 5 years or so with the same results with an aging roster, I think it is rare they change. Dallas did, but they also had a top 5 player at the time. Any team with a superstar has that chance.

Agree, good post.

also on:

The Spurs tank for Tim Duncan 20 years ago and it worked so now everyone thinks its the way to go. What they probably don't remember is the Spurs were already a good team and organization who had a down year.

They also beat incredible odds to get the number 1 pick over the Celtics. In a way, the Duncan pick shows that the tanking ISN't the way to go. The Celtics not only had the best odds of winning the draft with their own pick, but a second lottery pick as well giving them a 36 percent chance of getting the #1 - and all they had to show for it in the end was 50 games of Chauncey Billups and Ron Mercer. Always find it interesting how often that gets left out in the whole "spurs build a championship team by tanking for Duncan" story.

How does it show that tanking isn't the way to go? It came down to Celts Spurs Philly and a couple other teams. Whoever won that draw got a generational player. If the Spurs decided to win instead of tank that year they wouldn't have any championships. Zero.

[TeamTragic]

Sixers vs. Suns. I say we turn this into a rivalry. First to make it to the play-offs wins. What do you guys think?

[James40]

Sixers vs. Suns. I say we turn this into a rivalry. First to make it to the play-offs wins. What do you guys think?

If I thought our GM was going to use those "assets" anytime soon, I would easily say the Sixers, but there's a better chance of a zombie apocalypse.

[Mr Puddles]

Sixers vs. Suns. I say we turn this into a rivalry. First to make it to the play-offs wins. What do you guys think?

If I thought our GM was going to use those "assets" anytime soon, I would easily say the Sixers, but there's a better chance of a zombie apocalypse.

Let's make it the first one to win a championship wins, seems more appropriate since the criticism of the Suns is that they're a perennial 9th seed - moving up one spot doesn't necessarily mean the Suns improved as a team, it could simply mean an injury to AD.

Meanwhile, the reasoning behind the Sixers strategy is that they're stockpiling talent to build a championship team - sacrificing the short term for the long term good.

So let's make it the following: "first team to win a championship wins the bet... GO!!!"

[JMac1]

I love how everyone is idolizing Philly who has won......... what exactly? They haven't even won the draft lottery..... I'll take my Suns any day, thanks.

And the Suns have won....what, exactly?

Yeah, that's the point.

Cognitive dissonance is a b****.

I would never try to rationalize with a guy who thinks this way.....waste of time.

All this thread as informed me of is it is full of people who enjoying losing and living in "what we are going to do in the future land." which cannot be proven, so why argue with "we are going to" people?

Fact is Suns are better than the Jazz, Lakers, Minny, Sixers, Knicks, and a host of others.......those are the facts. So saying you rather root for a team that sucks more......congrats!! Until you start winning, your plan and draft picks mean jack when comparing them to the Suns. Treadmill, no title or whatever, when my team is better than your team, all the other stuff you are talking is just hope and means absolutely jack.

10 years of sucking......on purpose?!!?! is okay?



I'd give some credence to you guys on this discussion, but we are a young team. Being on the cusp of the playoffs with a young team is a bad thing? Wow!

Laker, Sixers, Timberwolves fans, after you start winning we can start talking about who is in a better position (core of Clarkson, Randle, and Russell....you have got to be kidding) but until then, keep living on that dream. Jazz are actually winning......so, good for them.

You fans of LOSERS!! Keep enjoying a team that tries to lose.......for the next 10 years And to be okay with that crap.....incredible!!

[Mr Puddles]

Great post. You never know what a team might be capable of. If they go 5 years or so with the same results with an aging roster, I think it is rare they change. Dallas did, but they also had a top 5 player at the time. Any team with a superstar has that chance.

Agree, good post.

also on:

The Spurs tank for Tim Duncan 20 years ago and it worked so now everyone thinks its the way to go. What they probably don't remember is the Spurs were already a good team and organization who had a down year.

They also beat incredible odds to get the number 1 pick over the Celtics. In a way, the Duncan pick shows that the tanking ISN't the way to go. The Celtics not only had the best odds of winning the draft with their own pick, but a second lottery pick as well giving them a 36 percent chance of getting the #1 - and all they had to show for it in the end was 50 games of Chauncey Billups and Ron Mercer. Always find it interesting how often that gets left out in the whole "spurs build a championship team by tanking for Duncan" story.

How does it show that tanking isn't the way to go? It came down to Celts Spurs Philly and a couple other teams. Whoever won that draw got a generational player. If the Spurs decided to win instead of tank that year they wouldn't have any championships. Zero.

Because the Spurs beat crazy odds, you can't use the Spurs as and example and then ignore the Celtics - as they were out-tanking the Spurs. Landing a guy like Tim Duncan is sheer luck, you have to have the ping pong balls drop in your favor during a year that a generational talent is available - and then hope he doesn't turn out to be Greg Oden.

Also, the Spurs won multiple championships because of good drafting, not necessarily high drafting. Guys like Parker, Ginobili, Kawhi Leonard didn't just fall into their laps like Duncan did. The same can be said for many other dynasties, the Bulls for example were build a team around a #3 pick, but traded to get their other key players like Pippen, Rodman, Harper etc., while also finding gems in the draft like Horace Grant, Toni Kukoc and BJ Armstrong.

If building a championship team was as easy as being terrible season after season, the Clippers would have had more banners than the Celtics right now.

[Ponchos]

Agree, good post.

also on:



They also beat incredible odds to get the number 1 pick over the Celtics. In a way, the Duncan pick shows that the tanking ISN't the way to go. The Celtics not only had the best odds of winning the draft with their own pick, but a second lottery pick as well giving them a 36 percent chance of getting the #1 - and all they had to show for it in the end was 50 games of Chauncey Billups and Ron Mercer. Always find it interesting how often that gets left out in the whole "spurs build a championship team by tanking for Duncan" story.

How does it show that tanking isn't the way to go? It came down to Celts Spurs Philly and a couple other teams. Whoever won that draw got a generational player. If the Spurs decided to win instead of tank that year they wouldn't have any championships. Zero.

Because the Spurs beat crazy odds, you can't use the Spurs as and example and then ignore the Celtics - as they were out-tanking the Spurs. Landing a guy like Tim Duncan is sheer luck, you have to have the ping pong balls drop in your favor during a year that a generational talent is available - and then hope he doesn't turn out to be Greg Oden.

Also, the Spurs won multiple championships because of good drafting, not necessarily high drafting. Guys like Parker, Ginobili, Kawhi Leonard didn't just fall into their laps like Duncan did. The same can be said for many other dynasties, the Bulls for example were build a team around a #3 pick, but traded to get their other key players like Pippen, Rodman, Harper etc., while also finding gems in the draft like Horace Grant, Toni Kukoc and BJ Armstrong.

If building a championship team was as easy as being terrible season after season, the Clippers would have had more banners than the Celtics right now.

Nobody said losing was all there was to it, but without those top-3 picks for Duncan and Jordan, neither team is winning squat.

It begins with the draft.

[bondom34]

I get what Philly is doing, and see the reasoning.

That said, if you're saying PHX is stuck and treadmilling, I don't get it. They're young, have a bunch of draft picks, good players signed, and literally came closer to being true contenders in a 2 day span than Philly did in 3 years when they went out and got Chandler and nearly LMA. That's why they did what they did, because ultimately they can find a free agent willing to go there sometime. To add to that possibility they still have picks, including those Heat ones that could be good. The Suns are not a treadmill team, they're a really good rebuilding team who may be in the playoffs this season.

[TeamTragic]

I get what Philly is doing, and see the reasoning.

That said, if you're saying PHX is stuck and treadmilling, I don't get it. They're young, have a bunch of draft picks, good players signed, and literally came closer to being true contenders in a 2 day span than Philly did in 3 years when they went out and got Chandler and nearly LMA. That's why they did what they did, because ultimately they can find a free agent willing to go there sometime. To add to that possibility they still have picks, including those Heat ones that could be good. The Suns are not a treadmill team, they're a really good rebuilding team who may be in the playoffs this season.

[Big A All Day]

**** are really in this thread popping ****?

we suck and have no way of knowing if things will work out. One of our biggest pieces to our dynasty literally may never suit up for us. We cannot look down on other teams right now. ATM we are no better off than anyone. Lets wait and see how it plays out before popping bottles

Dynasty?

[CoreyGallagher]

**** are really in this thread popping ****?

we suck and have no way of knowing if things will work out. One of our biggest pieces to our dynasty literally may never suit up for us. We cannot look down on other teams right now. ATM we are no better off than anyone. Lets wait and see how it plays out before popping bottles

Dynasty?

I'm not sure how much more obvious sarcasm could possibly be.

[JDizzel3000]

I love how everyone is idolizing Philly who has won......... what exactly? They haven't even won the draft lottery..... I'll take my Suns any day, thanks.

And the Suns have won....what, exactly?

Yeah, that's the point.

Cognitive dissonance is a b****.

I would never try to rationalize with a guy who thinks this way.....waste of time.

All this thread as informed me of is it is full of people who enjoying losing and living in "what we are going to do in the future land." which cannot be proven, so why argue with "we are going to" people?

Fact is Suns are better than the Jazz, Lakers, Minny, Sixers, Knicks, and a host of others.......those are the facts. So saying you rather root for a team that sucks more......congrats!! Until you start winning, your plan and draft picks mean jack when comparing them to the Suns. Treadmill, no title or whatever, when my team is better than your team, all the other stuff you are talking is just hope and means absolutely jack.

10 years of sucking......on purpose?!!?! is okay?



I'd give some credence to you guys on this discussion, but we are a young team. Being on the cusp of the playoffs with a young team is a bad thing? Wow!

Laker, Sixers, Timberwolves fans, after you start winning we can start talking about who is in a better position (core of Clarkson, Randle, and Russell....you have got to be kidding) but until then, keep living on that dream. Jazz are actually winning......so, good for them.

You fans of LOSERS!! Keep enjoying a team that tries to lose.......for the next 10 years And to be okay with that crap.....incredible!!

The Suns haven't made the playoffs in 5 years my man ..possibly going on 6.... The 6ers have been to the post season more recent than your team ....yet ...you are celebrating being able to get the 13th pick in the draft better than another team?


That's quite strange ...

[SF_Warriors]

cool. thank you.
Looks like they are going to get LAo's, MIA's and OKC's picks next draft. Don't see them swapping picks with the kings but nice option to have considering they gave up nothing for that option.

I am rooting for the lakers to miss the playoffs but also not get a top 3 pick hope you guys get that one!!
I dont hate the lakers but they are a western conf and pacific div opponent

I doubt the swap will happen but we did get the Kings ping pong balls for the next two draft lotteries. There's a very small chance, but there is potential for the Sixers Kings trade to be one of the most lopsided in NBA history.

The best case of this trade is: Mitrovic and Gudaitis and $20 million in cap relief for:
-Stauskas
-Kings implode and win lottery. Philadelphia swaps and takes Ben Simmons with the first overall pick.
-Kings are terrible in 2017 and win lottery. A rising Philadelphia team loaded with Okafor/Noel/Embiid/Saric/two top-ten 2016 lottery picks swaps with the Kings and select Joshua Jackson with the first overall pick.
- 2018 top ten protected pick from Kings goes to Philly and if they keep it, we have a 2019 unprotected pick in the draft the year after Boogie's contract ends.

Highly unlikely but the potential is absolutely there.

haha yea i actually am a believer in tanking as a viable rebuilding strategy which is causing me to root for the sixers...to lose heavily for the next couple of drafts lol jk.

no but seriously..the frontcourt is shaping up nicely..and what could be at worst 2 top ten picks for next season and a couple more first rounders
i feel philly is on the right track...stauskas if he can become a rotation player will be. huge bonus..sucks about embiid though and sixers fo will eventually have to decide btwn him and jahlil unless jahlil can play pf

[knicksfan974]

The most important thing to realize - and this has been said in this thread before - is that the goal is to build a championship contender. Not am average team or a playoff-team, but a true championship contender. That being said, as a Knicks fan I don't care how long it would take for the Knicks to finally build a championship contender, as long as they eventually do it. I have seen too many times Knicks management trying to rush things with bad trades and contracts. I much rather see the team being build patiently and smartly, with piece by piece.

[garrick]

And the Suns have won....what, exactly?

Yeah, that's the point.

Cognitive dissonance is a b****.

I would never try to rationalize with a guy who thinks this way.....waste of time.

All this thread as informed me of is it is full of people who enjoying losing and living in "what we are going to do in the future land." which cannot be proven, so why argue with "we are going to" people?

Fact is Suns are better than the Jazz, Lakers, Minny, Sixers, Knicks, and a host of others.......those are the facts. So saying you rather root for a team that sucks more......congrats!! Until you start winning, your plan and draft picks mean jack when comparing them to the Suns. Treadmill, no title or whatever, when my team is better than your team, all the other stuff you are talking is just hope and means absolutely jack.

10 years of sucking......on purpose?!!?! is okay?



I'd give some credence to you guys on this discussion, but we are a young team. Being on the cusp of the playoffs with a young team is a bad thing? Wow!

Laker, Sixers, Timberwolves fans, after you start winning we can start talking about who is in a better position (core of Clarkson, Randle, and Russell....you have got to be kidding) but until then, keep living on that dream. Jazz are actually winning......so, good for them.

You fans of LOSERS!! Keep enjoying a team that tries to lose.......for the next 10 years And to be okay with that crap.....incredible!!

The Suns haven't made the playoffs in 5 years my man ..possibly going on 6.... The 6ers have been to the post season more recent than your team ....yet ...you are celebrating being able to get the 13th pick in the draft better than another team?


That's quite strange ...

Making the playoffs as a lower seed in the East is a joke and nothing to be proud about and the Suns have had more wins than the sixers in recent years despite playing in the stacked Western conference.
The Sixers have gone without a playoff run for 4 seasons and the Suns 5, your point about the Sixers making the playoffs more recently is grasping.

[KingFox]

The draft isn't a sure thing. to rely on that is nuts

the clippers and warriors did that for YEARS

[JDizzel3000]

I would never try to rationalize with a guy who thinks this way.....waste of time.

All this thread as informed me of is it is full of people who enjoying losing and living in "what we are going to do in the future land." which cannot be proven, so why argue with "we are going to" people?

Fact is Suns are better than the Jazz, Lakers, Minny, Sixers, Knicks, and a host of others.......those are the facts. So saying you rather root for a team that sucks more......congrats!! Until you start winning, your plan and draft picks mean jack when comparing them to the Suns. Treadmill, no title or whatever, when my team is better than your team, all the other stuff you are talking is just hope and means absolutely jack.

10 years of sucking......on purpose?!!?! is okay?



I'd give some credence to you guys on this discussion, but we are a young team. Being on the cusp of the playoffs with a young team is a bad thing? Wow!

Laker, Sixers, Timberwolves fans, after you start winning we can start talking about who is in a better position (core of Clarkson, Randle, and Russell....you have got to be kidding) but until then, keep living on that dream. Jazz are actually winning......so, good for them.

You fans of LOSERS!! Keep enjoying a team that tries to lose.......for the next 10 years And to be okay with that crap.....incredible!!

The Suns haven't made the playoffs in 5 years my man ..possibly going on 6.... The 6ers have been to the post season more recent than your team ....yet ...you are celebrating being able to get the 13th pick in the draft better than another team?


That's quite strange ...

Making the playoffs as a lower seed in the East is a joke and nothing to be proud about and the Suns have had more wins than the sixers in recent years despite playing in the stacked Western conference.
The Sixers have gone without a playoff run for 4 seasons and the Suns 5, your point about the Sixers making the playoffs more recently is grasping.

Grasping? Lol ...did they make the playoffs or not? It's a very simple thing to comprehend ...you've got Suns fans in hear bragging about winning regular season games that have netted them nothing not even a playoff birth ..yet I'm the one grasping?? Lol ....I find that interesting

Anyhow ...now that it has been established that the sixers have had more success making it to the postseason over the past 5 years than the Suns ...can someone please explain to me just exactly how they're doing this rebuild thing "better" than the so called "tank king" sixers ...?? I mean ...yikes