Zach Lowe article on Suns and Sixers rebuild going in different directions

MrMiyagi · Post #161 » by **MrMiyagi** » Wed Jul 15, 2015 11:10 am

How many players on the Sixers 25 years old and under are better than players on the Suns 25 years old and under? If you were to rank players from both squads, what would that look like?

I'd bet Okafor is high on a lot of lists, but you've got to be kidding yourself if you have anyone else above Bledsoe, Knight and Markieff. Len and Nerlens are a wash. And if anyone says Embiid, you've lost your damn mind. I'd also bet that Archie Goodwin, TJ Warren and Devin Booker are just as good, if not better than most of the remaining guys on the Sixers roster.

Snotbubbles · Post #162 » by **Snotbubbles** » Wed Jul 15, 2015 11:41 am

loserX wrote:
Snotbubbles wrote:
loserX wrote:
That's totally fine, and it's your right. The problem is that a lot of people do care. From the article:

Some fans may be willing to wait forever. Some fans are surely not. But if the *players* aren't willing to put up with it then that strategy may be asking for trouble.

The Knicks already have a star, and the Lakers are still the Lakers...and we've seen what's happened to those teams in free agency this year. The Sixers (or any other team) can still try to build by losing, but the margin of error gets a lot smaller in an NBA where every team has cap space and players want to win.

I'm trying hard to understand your point. The whole point of Philly's rebuild is to land a star. There are three ways to land a star: 1.) Free agency; 2.) Trade; or 3.) Draft.

Start with #1. If LA and NY couldn't land a star player in FA, why would Philly want to rely on that avenue being in a less attractive market? I love Philly, but being realistic, it's not LA, NY or Miami. So it would be absolutely foolish for Philly to try and build a team on the hopes of landing a star through Free Agency. I won't say impossible, but probably extremely difficult.

Next is #2. If the Sixers want to land a star through a trade they are going to need certain things. Those things are called assets. Assets can be players, picks or cap space. So wouldn't it make sense for a team who is trying to acquire a star through trade to accumulate assets so that when a star becomes available they can make the best offer?

Finally #3. If the Sixers want to land a star, the most probable way to do it is to draft that star.

My point was that one fan saying "I'm okay with waiting forever" is fine, even numerous fans saying it is fine. But if the *players* aren't okay with it, then the team is going to have to come with a Plan B pretty darn fast. As in the quote Lowe provided, you already have guys wanting out.

Yes, you can get a star in the draft. Then what? The Knicks already have one, so everything must be peaches and cream, right? That didn't mean much to free agents, because the team doesn't seem ready to win. Any team that tries to build through losing needs to have an endgame in mind. BNelley24 might be happy to wait forever but that's not a plausible solution.

You seem to think winning and having a winning atmosphere is some kind of aphrodisiac to players and free agents. It's not. People want to leave teams for a myriad of different reasons. The Portland Trailblazers had back to back 50 win seasons, that didn't stop their free agents from wanting out and leaving.

Now your Knicks point. Yes, they have a star, but they didn't accumulate any additional assets to put around the star. They tried, and continue to try to do the save cap space to lure a FA method. Big difference to what the Sixers are doing.

Snotbubbles · Post #163 » by **Snotbubbles** » Wed Jul 15, 2015 12:00 pm

MrMiyagi wrote:How many players on the Sixers 25 years old and under are better than players on the Suns 25 years old and under? If you were to rank players from both squads, what would that look like?

I'd bet Okafor is high on a lot of lists, but you've got to be kidding yourself if you have anyone else above Bledsoe, Knight and Markieff. Len and Nerlens are a wash. And if anyone says Embiid, you've lost your damn mind. I'd also bet that Archie Goodwin, TJ Warren and Devin Booker are just as good, if not better than most of the remaining guys on the Sixers roster.

This is an unfair comparison TBH. Most of the Suns players are 24-25 and have seasoning in the NBA. The Sixers core is 19-22 and don't have NBA seasoning. Then how do you rate draft picks or players overseas?

I look at the Sixers assets:

Okafor
Noel
Embiid
Saric
2016 1st (most likely top 5)
Lakers 1st (most likely top 10 in 2016)
Miami 1st (around 20 in 2016?)
OKC 1st (around 25 in 2016?)
Sac 1st (2018 1-10 protected, 2019 unprotected)
Swap rights with Sacramento for 2016 and 2017

Right now, there are a bunch of possibilities, that's it. All of that might amount to nothing, or it might become one of the deepest, most talented teams in NBA history. It's hard to compare an already assembled to team to a projection. Also, if you think Len and Noel are a wash, you need to give your head a shake.

Post #164 » by **bwgood77** » Wed Jul 15, 2015 12:03 pm

JMac1 wrote:
mksp wrote:
MrMiyagi wrote:I love how everyone is idolizing Philly who has won......... what exactly? They haven't even won the draft lottery..... I'll take my Suns any day, thanks.

And the Suns have won....what, exactly?

Yeah, that's the point.

Cognitive dissonance is a b****.

I would never try to rationalize with a guy who thinks this way.....waste of time.

All this thread as informed me of is it is full of people who enjoying losing and living in "what we are going to do in the future land." which cannot be proven, so why argue with "we are going to" people?

Fact is Suns are better than the Jazz, Lakers, Minny, Sixers, Knicks, and a host of others.......those are the facts. So saying you rather root for a team that sucks more......congrats!! Until you start winning, your plan and draft picks mean jack when comparing them to the Suns. Treadmill, no title or whatever, when my team is better than your team, all the other stuff you are talking is just hope and means absolutely jack.

10 years of sucking......on purpose?!!?! is okay?

I'd give some credence to you guys on this discussion, but we are a young team. Being on the cusp of the playoffs with a young team is a bad thing? Wow!

Laker, Sixers, Timberwolves fans, after you start winning we can start talking about who is in a better position (core of Clarkson, Randle, and Russell....you have got to be kidding) but until then, keep living on that dream. Jazz are actually winning......so, good for them.

You fans of LOSERS!! Keep enjoying a team that tries to lose.......for the next 10 years And to be okay with that crap.....incredible!!

True, Suns could have had Noel, but they passed for more of a true center with offensive skills who can also protect the rim. Then they ended up with TJ Warren instead of Joel Embid? What a travesty. Okafor looks pretty legit though, now that Embiid looks like a bad pick. But the Suns, with the center and small forward in place, got the best shooting guard in the draft. Their point guards and PF are pretty good too, and in the first or second years off their rookie deals. Not a bad core, and could turn into a great one. Easily take it over Noel, Okafor and Saric.

Post #165 » by **bwgood77** » Wed Jul 15, 2015 12:10 pm

JDizzel3000 wrote:The Suns haven't made the playoffs in 5 years my man ..possibly going on 6.... The 6ers have been to the post season more recent than your team ....yet ...you are celebrating being able to get the 13th pick in the draft better than another team?

That's quite strange ...

True, yet it was the east conference getting one of the last two seeds by winning 41 or 35 games. The last time Philly had a record as good as the Suns did last year was in 2002-03. Not terribly impressive.

Post #166 » by **bwgood77** » Wed Jul 15, 2015 12:19 pm

JDizzel3000 wrote:
garrick wrote:
JDizzel3000 wrote:
Yes, in the first year of each of their rebuild, two summers ago, where the Suns had the 5th pick and the Sixers traded Holiday for the 6th pick, that was year one of the rebuild, and they were both expected to win fewer the 20 games. The Suns traded all their older vets that summer (Gortat for a pick, Scola for Green/Plumlee, and Dudley for Bledsoe). These are ALL rebuilding moves. They hired a coach that led them to 48 wins, all with 80-90% extremely young players. It's not like they were guys in their 30s going finishing in 9th.

Then this year, they traded another one of two of their oldest players (Dragic and Thomas) for three first rounders. These are not treadmill moves, but rebuilding moves. They had huge roster turnover and quite a few injuries this year to regress a bit, but go even younger.

Due to lack of leadership and maturity, they then decided they needed a vet to bring in for leadership and mentoring the younger guys. When you are on the cusp of the playoffs, despite being incredibly young, you want to take another step forward, not more steps back. If the Sixers suddenly got to the cusp of the playoffs in two years, should they trade all their guys in their young 20s for a bunch of more picks? That would seem counterintuitive to me, yet it seems like many fans are arguing that would be the way to go instead of pressing forward three years from now to try to make the playoffs.

The Suns haven't made the playoffs in 5 years my man ..possibly going on 6.... The 6ers have been to the post season more recent than your team ....yet ...you are celebrating being able to get the 13th pick in the draft better than another team?

That's quite strange ...

Making the playoffs as a lower seed in the East is a joke and nothing to be proud about and the Suns have had more wins than the sixers in recent years despite playing in the stacked Western conference.
The Sixers have gone without a playoff run for 4 seasons and the Suns 5, your point about the Sixers making the playoffs more recently is grasping.

Grasping? Lol ...did they make the playoffs or not? It's a very simple thing to comprehend ...you've got Suns fans in hear bragging about winning regular season games that have netted them nothing not even a playoff birth ..yet I'm the one grasping?? Lol ....I find that interesting

Anyhow ...now that it has been established that the sixers have had more success making it to the postseason over the past 5 years than the Suns ...can someone please explain to me just exactly how they're doing this rebuild thing "better" than the so called "tank king" sixers ...?? I mean ...yikes

MrMiyagi · Post #167 » by **MrMiyagi** » Wed Jul 15, 2015 12:21 pm

Snotbubbles wrote:
MrMiyagi wrote:How many players on the Sixers 25 years old and under are better than players on the Suns 25 years old and under? If you were to rank players from both squads, what would that look like?

I'd bet Okafor is high on a lot of lists, but you've got to be kidding yourself if you have anyone else above Bledsoe, Knight and Markieff. Len and Nerlens are a wash. And if anyone says Embiid, you've lost your damn mind. I'd also bet that Archie Goodwin, TJ Warren and Devin Booker are just as good, if not better than most of the remaining guys on the Sixers roster.

This is an unfair comparison TBH. Most of the Suns players are 24-25 and have seasoning in the NBA. The Sixers core is 19-22 and don't have NBA seasoning. Then how do you rate draft picks or players overseas?

I look at the Sixers assets:

Okafor
Noel
Embiid
Saric
2016 1st (most likely top 5)
Lakers 1st (most likely top 10 in 2016)
Miami 1st (around 20 in 2016?)
OKC 1st (around 25 in 2016?)
Sac 1st (2018 1-10 protected, 2019 unprotected)
Swap rights with Sacramento for 2016 and 2017

Right now, there are a bunch of possibilities, that's it. All of that might amount to nothing, or it might become one of the deepest, most talented teams in NBA history. It's hard to compare an already assembled to team to a projection. Also, if you think Len and Noel are a wash, you need to give your head a shake.

According to the Sixer fans, anything outside of the top 5 picks are worthless, so don't count any of them besides the Sixers own pick. If Saric is an asset, so is Bogdan Bogdanovic for the Suns.

Also, Noel and Len's numbers from last season: http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=lenal01&y1=2015&p2=noelne01&y2=2015&p3=&p4=&p5=&p6=

If you're gonna say those numbers aren't similar, then there is no helping you.

Snotbubbles · Post #168 » by **Snotbubbles** » Wed Jul 15, 2015 12:56 pm

MrMiyagi wrote:
Snotbubbles wrote:
MrMiyagi wrote:How many players on the Sixers 25 years old and under are better than players on the Suns 25 years old and under? If you were to rank players from both squads, what would that look like?

I'd bet Okafor is high on a lot of lists, but you've got to be kidding yourself if you have anyone else above Bledsoe, Knight and Markieff. Len and Nerlens are a wash. And if anyone says Embiid, you've lost your damn mind. I'd also bet that Archie Goodwin, TJ Warren and Devin Booker are just as good, if not better than most of the remaining guys on the Sixers roster.

This is an unfair comparison TBH. Most of the Suns players are 24-25 and have seasoning in the NBA. The Sixers core is 19-22 and don't have NBA seasoning. Then how do you rate draft picks or players overseas?

I look at the Sixers assets:

Okafor
Noel
Embiid
Saric
2016 1st (most likely top 5)
Lakers 1st (most likely top 10 in 2016)
Miami 1st (around 20 in 2016?)
OKC 1st (around 25 in 2016?)
Sac 1st (2018 1-10 protected, 2019 unprotected)
Swap rights with Sacramento for 2016 and 2017

Right now, there are a bunch of possibilities, that's it. All of that might amount to nothing, or it might become one of the deepest, most talented teams in NBA history. It's hard to compare an already assembled to team to a projection. Also, if you think Len and Noel are a wash, you need to give your head a shake.

According to the Sixer fans, anything outside of the top 5 picks are worthless, so don't count any of them besides the Sixers own pick. If Saric is an asset, so is Bogdan Bogdanovic for the Suns.

Also, Noel and Len's numbers from last season: http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=lenal01&y1=2015&p2=noelne01&y2=2015&p3=&p4=&p5=&p6=

If you're gonna say those numbers aren't similar, then there is no helping you.

Like I said unfair to compare since the Suns players are 3-5 years older than the Sixers core. In 4 or 5 years, most of the Sixers will be the age the Suns players are now.

As far as Noel and Len. If you look at the numbers when viewed as a whole for the season, at first glance they appear similar. When you provide context, they're not even close. Noel's numbers and advanced stats indicate an improvement as the season progressed. Len's numbers remained consistent throughout the year. So yeah, a guy just pulling up some numbers might think they are the same without actually looking a bit deeper. No need to really go into it, just look at the monthly splits, it's really telling just how much better Noel got and how much Len just stayed the same.

JMac1 · Post #169 » by **JMac1** » Wed Jul 15, 2015 1:04 pm

JDizzel3000 wrote:
JMac1 wrote:
mksp wrote:
And the Suns have won....what, exactly?

Yeah, that's the point.

Cognitive dissonance is a b****.

I would never try to rationalize with a guy who thinks this way.....waste of time.

All this thread as informed me of is it is full of people who enjoying losing and living in "what we are going to do in the future land." which cannot be proven, so why argue with "we are going to" people?

Fact is Suns are better than the Jazz, Lakers, Minny, Sixers, Knicks, and a host of others.......those are the facts. So saying you rather root for a team that sucks more......congrats!! Until you start winning, your plan and draft picks mean jack when comparing them to the Suns. Treadmill, no title or whatever, when my team is better than your team, all the other stuff you are talking is just hope and means absolutely jack.

10 years of sucking......on purpose?!!?! is okay?

I'd give some credence to you guys on this discussion, but we are a young team. Being on the cusp of the playoffs with a young team is a bad thing? Wow!

Laker, Sixers, Timberwolves fans, after you start winning we can start talking about who is in a better position (core of Clarkson, Randle, and Russell....you have got to be kidding) but until then, keep living on that dream. Jazz are actually winning......so, good for them.

You fans of LOSERS!! Keep enjoying a team that tries to lose.......for the next 10 years And to be okay with that crap.....incredible!!

The Suns haven't made the playoffs in 5 years my man ..possibly going on 6.... The 6ers have been to the post season more recent than your team ....yet ...you are celebrating being able to get the 13th pick in the draft better than another team?

That's quite strange ...

Again trying to rationalize with the irrational.... They competed up until game 75 last year and game 82 the year before that, so that meant I ENJOYED watching my team play the entire season my man. So what they lost at the end of the day EVERYONE'S team did except SAS and GS for those years. That means everyone fan felt like Suns fan at the end of the day, but these sucking teams have NO chance in October, year after year.

No going to the bar and rooting for your team to win with your friends ever.....for the entire year!! When was the last time you celebrated at the end of the season my man?! 20 years ago.

Please do me a favor and don't try to rationalize that into a bad thing, being relevant and playing for something. You have been totally brainwashed and do not understand how to watch sports.....It is entertainment!! If you are not being entertained, why watch?

joyeuxnoel · Post #170 » by **joyeuxnoel** » Wed Jul 15, 2015 1:05 pm

Alex Len is nowhere near the player NN is on defense

JMac1 · Post #171 » by **JMac1** » Wed Jul 15, 2015 1:22 pm

JDizzel3000 wrote:
garrick wrote:
JDizzel3000 wrote:

The Suns haven't made the playoffs in 5 years my man ..possibly going on 6.... The 6ers have been to the post season more recent than your team ....yet ...you are celebrating being able to get the 13th pick in the draft better than another team?

That's quite strange ...

Making the playoffs as a lower seed in the East is a joke and nothing to be proud about and the Suns have had more wins than the sixers in recent years despite playing in the stacked Western conference.
The Sixers have gone without a playoff run for 4 seasons and the Suns 5, your point about the Sixers making the playoffs more recently is grasping.

Grasping? Lol ...did they make the playoffs or not? It's a very simple thing to comprehend ...you've got Suns fans in hear bragging about winning regular season games that have netted them nothing not even a playoff birth ..yet I'm the one grasping?? Lol ....I find that interesting

Anyhow ...now that it has been established that the sixers have had more success making it to the postseason over the past 5 years than the Suns ...can someone please explain to me just exactly how they're doing this rebuild thing "better" than the so called "tank king" sixers ...?? I mean ...yikes

No one is celebrating anything except GS fans I hope. Suns fans are here wondering how can you look down on someone when you are underneath them?

And when you are called out on it, you get upset.

If you are not a SAS, GS, Cavs, OKC, or Rockets' fan, you have your own business to take care of.....Maybe the Clippers,

6ersfolife · Post #172 » by **6ersfolife** » Wed Jul 15, 2015 1:25 pm

Talk about sounding butthurt. I see alot of anger from you suns fans. Ask any GM in the league what team and circumstances he would want, and I guarantee it is not the suns middle of the pack talent. No need to argue with you, because you want to justify your team playing in the west and being competetive til game 75. I want a championship and I'll take our rebuild and tanking over your enjoyment of a mediocre team all day! Just because you continue to post a ton of your opinions with anger doesn't change where your team is.

Post #173 » by **bondom34** » Wed Jul 15, 2015 1:28 pm

6ersfolife wrote:Talk about sounding butthurt. I see alot of anger from you suns fans. Ask any GM in the league what team and circumstances he would want, and I guarantee it is not the suns middle of the pack talent. No need to argue with you, because you want to justify your team playing in the west and being competetive til game 75. I want a championship and I'll take our rebuild and tanking over your enjoyment of a mediocre team all day! Just because you continue to post a ton of your opinions with anger doesn't change where your team is.

Neutral fan.

I'd rather be the Suns.

Post #174 » by **HartfordWhalers** » Wed Jul 15, 2015 1:39 pm

garrick wrote:Making the playoffs as a lower seed in the East is a joke and nothing to be proud about and the Suns have had more wins than the sixers in recent years despite playing in the stacked Western conference.
The Sixers have gone without a playoff run for 4 seasons and the Suns 5, your point about the Sixers making the playoffs more recently is grasping.

Might want to count the years again.

Suns were last in the playoffs 6 years ago. So that makes it 5 years without a playoff run as you say.
Sixers were last in the playoffs 4 years ago. So that makes it (not 4) years without a playoff run.

Post #175 » by **HartfordWhalers** » Wed Jul 15, 2015 1:44 pm

JMac1 wrote:Again trying to rationalize with the irrational.... They competed up until game 75 last year and game 82 the year before that, so that meant I ENJOYED watching my team play the entire season my man. So what they lost at the end of the day EVERYONE'S team did except SAS and GS for those years. That means everyone fan felt like Suns fan at the end of the day, but these sucking teams have NO chance in October, year after year.

No going to the bar and rooting for your team to win with your friends ever.....for the entire year!! When was the last time you celebrated at the end of the season my man?! 20 years ago.

Please do me a favor and don't try to rationalize that into a bad thing, being relevant and playing for something. You have been totally brainwashed and do not understand how to watch sports.....It is entertainment!! If you are not being entertained, why watch?

Posts like this are why the GB gets a horrible reputation.

Need to try and make a point without anything else -- try all caps that will make the point stronger!
Guy disagrees with you -- throw out that they don't understand how to watch sports cause otherwise they would agree with you!
But most of all, start with an inherently contradictory thesis -- So what that my team lost at the end, it was enjoyable while your team was not enjoyable because they lost!

Post #176 » by **Goudelock** » Wed Jul 15, 2015 1:48 pm

6ersfolife wrote:Talk about sounding butthurt. I see alot of anger from you suns fans. Ask any GM in the league what team and circumstances he would want, and I guarantee it is not the suns middle of the pack talent. No need to argue with you, because you want to justify your team playing in the west and being competetive til game 75. I want a championship and I'll take our rebuild and tanking over your enjoyment of a mediocre team all day! Just because you continue to post a ton of your opinions with anger doesn't change where your team is.

You do understand that you're going to have to go through some .500 seasons after you get done tanking, right? And that there's a good chance that the Sixers will end up being a treadmill team anyways.

ImChillin01 · Post #177 » by **ImChillin01** » Wed Jul 15, 2015 2:04 pm

PockyCandy wrote:
6ersfolife wrote:Talk about sounding butthurt. I see alot of anger from you suns fans. Ask any GM in the league what team and circumstances he would want, and I guarantee it is not the suns middle of the pack talent. No need to argue with you, because you want to justify your team playing in the west and being competetive til game 75. I want a championship and I'll take our rebuild and tanking over your enjoyment of a mediocre team all day! Just because you continue to post a ton of your opinions with anger doesn't change where your team is.

You do understand that you're going to have to go through some .500 seasons after you get done tanking, right? And that there's a good chance that the Sixers will end up being a treadmill team anyways.

Treadmill = Playoff team with no chance to win Finals and arent progressing.

I think 76ers fans expect transition from horrendous to treadmill to contender

EricAnderson · Post #178 » by **EricAnderson** » Wed Jul 15, 2015 2:05 pm

koogiking wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
BNelley24 wrote:
The goal is not to have a solid team. The goal is to have a TITLE CONTENDING TEAM.

Sure that is the ultimate goal, and everyone wants it, but there are a ton of fans, especially casual ones, who watch their local team to be entertained, and they just want to have a team that plays hard and gives them a good game to watch, and perhaps plays a great style. MANY Suns fans LOVED the KJ days, watching those teams from 88 to 95, even though there were heartbreaking series to the Blazers, Bulls and Rockets.

Same with the 2005-2010 Suns days. The Suns picked up TONS of new fans with the Barkley years and the Nash years, so obviously those new fans just loved how entertaining the Suns were to watch.

For many, it's not just championship or bust. It's also for entertainment.

And not only that, sometimes a good team in the playoffs can get lucky and win the whole thing. Anything can happen once your in the playoffs. Maybe other players stars get injured, maybe the competing team can go on a hot streak. Maybe a team that has been consistently in the playoffs year in year out eventually gains enough chemistry and experience they ccan eventually win a championship like the Mavs did.

And competing year in year out gives you the opportunity to sign free agents. Players want to go to teams that compete and win and have a good culture.

Also, when you tank, even if you hit on your draft pick and pick a franchise player, there is no guarantee that you'll even make the playoffs let alone be title contenders. The Timberwolves had Kevin Love and never made the playoffs. The Cavs had Kyrie and didn't make the playoffs until Lebron decided to come back home. Kevin Garnett couldn't even make the playoffs on many of those terrible wolves teams.

I disagree with the make the playoffs and anything can happen thing..the nba is by far the most predictable playoff where only a few teams have a legit shot to win it all

JMac1 · Post #179 » by **JMac1** » Wed Jul 15, 2015 2:38 pm

joyeuxnoel wrote:Alex Len is nowhere near the player NN is on defense

That's your Opinion and you are entitled to it. What does that mean to me? Nothing.

JMac1 · Post #180 » by **JMac1** » Wed Jul 15, 2015 2:44 pm

BigCuz wrote:The draft isn't a sure thing. to rely on that is nuts

the clippers and warriors did that for YEARS

For years......? Forever!!