Zach Lowe article on Suns and Sixers rebuild going in different directions

[joyeuxnoel]

Just curious if 76ers fans think they'll be instant contenders after their 'plan' is finished?

Or will they have some .500 ish seasons in there? So will they tank when they get to .500 again?

Since that would be "tread milling" right?

its hard to predict the future, but the goal is not have .500ish seasons.

however, just because a team is over .500 doesnt make them instant contenders. It really depends on how the sixers get their star player, if they develop him via drafting him then it will take some growing pains. If they trade for him, they will see a more rapid rise in terms of W-L

but the plan isn't to just get one star player hence why the asset accumulation process takes the longest

[JDizzel3000]

True, yet it was the east conference getting one of the last two seeds by winning 41 or 35 games. The last time Philly had a record as good as the Suns did last year was in 2002-03. Not terribly impressive.

#1 that franchise has had a MUCH richer and more successful history than the Suns if you really want to get into a back and forth about records and accomplishments ....I really don't think you want tongi down that path of brining up extended history ...


#2 sticking to what we're actually talking about here ...I'd like to know if essentially what you are trying to infer is that winning regular season games >>>> getting to watch your team go to the playoffs


If so ....I'd say that it would be very telling in regards to the general psyche of a Suns fan

Why would the 76ers history matter? I don't really care they were good in the 80s, they've been to the conference finals 3 times since 2000, Phoenix has the same. They made the finals once, Phoenix didn't. So that's the "success" they've had over the Suns.

What happened in 2000 is just as irrelevant as what happened in 1980 or 1970 and that was my point a point that was only a response to Bwgood77 bringing up the fact that the 6ers haven't won more games than the Suns in a single season since the early 2000's ...it was an irrelevant point he made ...so I told him that if he wanted to talk about extended history it would not favor his franchise ....simple

[bondom34]

Underneath them? Lmao ......Suns fans having this kind of hubris is adorable to me ....you have done nothing and accomplished less than that team and YOUR trying to rationalize to me why in your mind that's ok ..yet I'm the irrational one?? Lol ...my question is how many years of missing the playoffs in a row do Suns fans find to be acceptable?? I guess it's just a different mentality for teams that have won the whole enchilada and teams that never have ...I suppose when you don't know that feeling of achievement subconsciously your willing to accept anything as a victory ....claiming that 5 straight years of non playoff basketball has been entertaining to you is bizarre to me ....but hey ....that's your prerogative



This sounds like projection ...we're on a sports forum talking about a game we all love ....relax




We'll be alright ...i can walk and chew gum at the same time

Honestly, I don't think many teams are in a better spot than the Suns. And I'd rather be them than a middling east team as well.

Interesting...

I'd take


Magic
Sixers
Bucks
T'wolves
Jazz
Pistons


All over the Suns ...in regards to young teams with a chance to rebuild into contenders ...there's very few rebuilding teams that I see the Suns having the advantage on actually ...

Wow, there's no way I'd take Detroit, I wouldn't take Philly either. The Magic are close, and the Wolves I don't know enough yet. I'd probably take the Bucks and Jazz but need more of a sample to see the Jazz are as good as the last 20 games were showing first. Phoenix has the following:

A roster younger than the Wolves and Pistons. All of their own picks (Minnesota owes one, not sure on Detroit). Plus 3 extra firsts including a few from Miami right around when I'd say Wade is retiring. A top 5-10 PG signed long term, a big man who's close in ability to Noel, great flexibility, and was about a day away from luring LMA there. One free agent and they could be top 4 in the west to me. That's where I'd rather be.

[bondom34]

#1 that franchise has had a MUCH richer and more successful history than the Suns if you really want to get into a back and forth about records and accomplishments ....I really don't think you want tongi down that path of brining up extended history ...


#2 sticking to what we're actually talking about here ...I'd like to know if essentially what you are trying to infer is that winning regular season games >>>> getting to watch your team go to the playoffs


If so ....I'd say that it would be very telling in regards to the general psyche of a Suns fan

Why would the 76ers history matter? I don't really care they were good in the 80s, they've been to the conference finals 3 times since 2000, Phoenix has the same. They made the finals once, Phoenix didn't. So that's the "success" they've had over the Suns.

What happened in 2000 is just as irrelevant as what happened in 1980 or 1970 and that was my point a point that was only a response to Bwgood77 bringing up the fact that the 6ers haven't won more games than the Suns in a single season since the early 2000's ...it was an irrelevant point he made ...so I told him that if he wanted to talk about extended history it would not favor his franchise ....simple

Well then I just don't get your point.

[JDizzel3000]

Why would the 76ers history matter? I don't really care they were good in the 80s, they've been to the conference finals 3 times since 2000, Phoenix has the same. They made the finals once, Phoenix didn't. So that's the "success" they've had over the Suns.

What happened in 2000 is just as irrelevant as what happened in 1980 or 1970 and that was my point a point that was only a response to Bwgood77 bringing up the fact that the 6ers haven't won more games than the Suns in a single season since the early 2000's ...it was an irrelevant point he made ...so I told him that if he wanted to talk about extended history it would not favor his franchise ....simple

Well then I just don't get your point.

You don't "get" how bringing up what happened in 2000 is just as irrelevant to the conversation about the Suns vs 6ers recent successes as brining up what happened in the 80's??

So putting an arbitrary time cap on how far back in history you look to measure each teams success makes sense to you and serves as a pertinent point in regards to the conversation we've been having?



Interesting

[bondom34]

What happened in 2000 is just as irrelevant as what happened in 1980 or 1970 and that was my point a point that was only a response to Bwgood77 bringing up the fact that the 6ers haven't won more games than the Suns in a single season since the early 2000's ...it was an irrelevant point he made ...so I told him that if he wanted to talk about extended history it would not favor his franchise ....simple

Well then I just don't get your point.

You don't "get" how bringing up what happened in 2000 is just as irrelevant to the conversation about the Suns vs 6ers recent successes as brining up what happened in the 80's??

So putting an arbitrary time cap on how far back in history you look to measure each teams success makes sense to you and serves as a pertinent point in regards to the conversation we've been having?



Interesting

Cut it off wherever you'd like to, ultimately it doesn't matter to me that right now, the Suns have built a pretty solid team who are on the verge of contention. The Sixers (as much as I respect and understand their plan) don't have any foreseeable winning in the near future. I can't honestly look at that team and say in 3 years they'll be winning anything.

[sixerswillrule]

Just curious if 76ers fans think they'll be instant contenders after their 'plan' is finished?

Or will they have some .500 ish seasons in there? So will they tank when they get to .500 again?

Since that would be "tread milling" right?

Seriously?

No, it wouldn't be "tread milling". That's when it doesn't look like your team has much room to grow and is stuck in the middle. If your young guys improve and take you to some .500 ish seasons, and you expect that those young guys will continue to improve to take you to further levels, that's progression. Golden State went from 47 wins to 51 wins to 67 wins. Their young guys kept improving.

[mksp]

It's funny, this time last year when this exact same conversation was happening, Noel was an "injury-prone uknown", Okafor was "just a draft pick" and "WTF is Philly doing LOL????"

Now Noel is an objectively good, young and ascending defensive anchor and Okafor is a legit building block (this is a near universal opinion - we don't know his ceiling obviously, but he's clearly a young, talented big man), while Philly also acquired Nik Stauskas (who this time last year, everyone wanted Philly to draft). Philly will also likely have two more top-10 picks next year, plus two more 1st round picks, plus Dario Saric, and *maybe* Joel Embiid, but it's still "WTF is Philly doing LOL????"

You guys notice how those "unknown, unproven, *just* draft picks" turn into real players? It's pretty rad.

You can only only use the "potential" angle as a negative for so long before that potential is realized and you're staring at a young, fun, up and coming team, which is exactly what Hinkie is trying to build.

Like, what are you guys going to say about Philly next year, if the following team is taking the floor at the start of the 2016-17 season:

1 - Kris Dunn (LAL Pick) / Demetrius Jackson (MIA Pick)
2 - Nik Stauskas
3 - Ben Simmons (PHI or SAC Pick) / Robert Covington / Jerami Grant
4 - Nerlens Noel / Dario Saric
5- Jahlil Okafor / Joel Embiid

It doesn't have to be Ben Simmons either. Subsitute Jaylen Brown or Brandon Ingram if you want, turns out the top of the draft is pretty strong at a position of need for PHI next year.

If that's the team PHI is rolling out for 2016-17, then absolutely, these three total seasons of "tanking" / asset accumulation were worth it.

What will the popular narrative be then? Wait, I know the answer. It will be "those guys are just *potentially* good players, they're unproven, etc." Have fun with that.

[Latrell]

Just curious if 76ers fans think they'll be instant contenders after their 'plan' is finished?

Or will they have some .500 ish seasons in there? So will they tank when they get to .500 again?

Since that would be "tread milling" right?

Seriously?

No, it wouldn't be "tread milling". That's when it doesn't look like your team has much room to grow and is stuck in the middle. If your young guys improve and take you to some .500 ish seasons, and you expect that those young guys will continue to improve to take you to further levels, that's progression. Golden State went from 47 wins to 51 wins to 67 wins. Their young guys kept improving.

No yeah, I agree with you. It's just that some people have weird definitions for treadmill.I'm not a fan of the term as it is.

[rsavaj]

I'm not sure what the average age of the RealGM poster is, but as I've gotten a bit older, the "championship or bust" mentality has grown less attractive to me. As a fan of the NBA's winningest franchise without a title/the 4th highest winning percentage in NBA history, winning a title sure would be grand, but I don't think the team is an absolute failure if they never win a championship. 29 teams don't win a title every year; does that mean that their fans shouldn't watch them? Shouldn't attend their games?

Sports are supposed to be fun. Watching the Suns lose isn't very fun at all. I don't know if I would continue watching the Suns if they decided to lose 60 or 70 games every year. Now that I'm closer to 30 than 20, I don't have the time/patience anymore to stress about the Suns potentially never winning a title. My priorities as a fan have shifted. Watching basketball is one of my favorite diversions when I need to check out of the real world for a bit. When I come home from work, I want to watch a fun, competitive team filled with guys I like rooting for.

Sure, I understand the logic behind "you need superstars to win a title-->one of the easiest ways to get a superstar is to get a top 3 pick-->let's lose for 5 years and get enough top 3 picks that we're bound to get a superduperstar!", but man...those would be 5 miserable years for me as a fan.

Maybe Philly wins a title before Phoenix does, maybe they don't, but I like the idea of watching a squad that has a reasonable shot at winning more games than they lose. Might not win Phoenix any titles, but it sure as hell makes my day a bit better.

[SexDrugsPnR]

Sports are supposed to be fun. Watching the Suns lose isn't very fun at all. I don't know if I would continue watching the Suns if they decided to lose 60 or 70 games every year. Now that I'm closer to 30 than 20, I don't have the time/patience anymore to stress about the Suns potentially never winning a title. My priorities as a fan have shifted. Watching basketball is one of my favorite diversions when I need to check out of the real world for a bit. When I come home from work, I want to watch a fun, competitive team filled with guys I like rooting for.

turns out rooting for wroten, noel, okafor and covington is just as much fun (if not more) as rooting for hawes, jrue, turner or kwame. sure the latter team might win some more games, but what's the difference really? you said winning a championship is not important, so winning a few more games is? the sixers have quite a likeable bunch of young guys most of whom have potential to improve significantly. what's wrong with rooting for them?

[JDizzel3000]

Wow, there's no way I'd take Detroit, I wouldn't take Philly either. The Magic are close, and the Wolves I don't know enough yet. I'd probably take the Bucks and Jazz but need more of a sample to see the Jazz are as good as the last 20 games were showing first. Phoenix has the following:

I don't see why you wouldn't take Detroit ...if your comparing the two teams I'd take Drummond as having a better future than anyone on the Suns and Reggie Jackson is definitely on the level of the Suns guards ....then you throw in Stanley Johnson and the fact that another top ten pick is more than likely on its way and I really don't get your logic behind that


The Wolves? That's debatable to you? Wiggins,Lavine,Shabazz,KAT .....really??

Philly has 4 first round picks next season ...Big Jah who I fell will be better than anyone on the Suns roster moving forward NN who put up some historically great defensive numbers during the second half of the season ...again I don't get your point

A roster younger than the Wolves and Pistons.

This is disingenuous argumentation ...the wolves core is much younger than the Suns ...guys like Kevin Garnett who will not be apart of their future artificially inflate the teams average age

All of their own picks (Minnesota owes one, not sure on Detroit). Plus 3 extra firsts including a few from Miami right around when I'd say Wade is retiring. A top 5-10 PG signed long term, a big man who's close in ability to Noel, great flexibility, and was about a day away from luring LMA there. One free agent and they could be top 4 in the west to me. That's where I'd rather be.

#1 - who's there top 5 PG who speak of?

#2 - 3 extra first? You realize that one of those doesn't come until 2021? That's 5 years away my guy? The team may not even be intact as it is currently constructed by that time...a big man close to Noel? Are you serious?? I don't know where your getting your information from ...but you might want to do some actual research on the season that Noel had last season ....here's a great grantland article on it

http://grantland.com/the-triangle/nerlens-noel-the-other-rookie-of-the-year/

Len is about as much of Nerleans Noel as Eddy Curry was "BABY SHAQ" lol

Lastly I'm trying to understand how LOSING out on a prime free agent is somehow being spun as a good thing ...that is amazing to me ...so they strike out on LeBron last year ...they strike out on LMA this year and your telling me that that's good and that's where you'd want to be ...?? I'm sorry man that ...is simply insane to me...no offense


The interesting thing about this is over the past 2 seasons the Suns have actually regressed record wise ...yet I'm being told they have a better future than these other teams?


Interesting.

[gaspar]

Words can't describe how happy I'm that the Suns didn't go the Sixers route. Sure, high draft picks and dreams about future championships is fun and all, but watching your team (with actual NBA players on the rosters, not some random D-Leaguers) compete against the best teams in the league is much, MUCH better.

[joyeuxnoel]

I'm not sure what the average age of the RealGM poster is, but as I've gotten a bit older, the "championship or bust" mentality has grown less attractive to me. As a fan of the NBA's winningest franchise without a title/the 4th highest winning percentage in NBA history, winning a title sure would be grand, but I don't think the team is an absolute failure if they never win a championship. 29 teams don't win a title every year; does that mean that their fans shouldn't watch them? Shouldn't attend their games?

Sports are supposed to be fun. Watching the Suns lose isn't very fun at all. I don't know if I would continue watching the Suns if they decided to lose 60 or 70 games every year. Now that I'm closer to 30 than 20, I don't have the time/patience anymore to stress about the Suns potentially never winning a title. My priorities as a fan have shifted. Watching basketball is one of my favorite diversions when I need to check out of the real world for a bit. When I come home from work, I want to watch a fun, competitive team filled with guys I like rooting for.

Sure, I understand the logic behind "you need superstars to win a title-->one of the easiest ways to get a superstar is to get a top 3 pick-->let's lose for 5 years and get enough top 3 picks that we're bound to get a superduperstar!", but man...those would be 5 miserable years for me as a fan.

Maybe Philly wins a title before Phoenix does, maybe they don't, but I like the idea of watching a squad that has a reasonable shot at winning more games than they lose. Might not win Phoenix any titles, but it sure as hell makes my day a bit better.

i totally see your point, now let me show you mine.

most sixers fans would tell you the sixers havent won a championship for almost 40 years and who cares if the sixers suck for 4-5 years if it potentially makes them a contender. I get their point too, but that's not the reason why i'm watching

what satisfies people in life? Money, that new shiny iphone, cars, buying a home, a promotion at work? No. It's the path they chose that they ultimately reflect back on. Once you get that iphone, car, house, etc eventually it becomes stale and you move on to the next big thing that you covet.

in the NBA, the ultimate path, the ultimate prize, is a championship. Until you win one, and then the thirst for another quickly outgrows the joy of winning the previous one. And then you want a dynasty, to win multiple championships. But the path you took to win that championship, now that is what is truly interesting.

Chances are what hinkie is doing will never amount to anything, that's simple probability. His plan however is different/the road less taken because he got the green light from ownership to do whatever the hell he wants. Most GMs in the NBA, scratch that ALL SPORTS are content with trotting out a team that is at least respectable so they don't have to look behind their shoulder every second wondering when they'll be fired.

In sports, if you sport a team with an awful record, you're canned. But not the sixers, they want to lose, they want to be so bad so they can get as many assets/draft picks as possible in hope they'll hit on enough picks and eventually they'll have enough talent to win a championship.

That's the boring part. The interesting part is seeing the players develop, seeing if this will be either an epic success story or an epic failure. There is no middle ground here. It truly is championship or bust which you're not a fan of, but that's not the fun part, its seeing the process that excites me, not the result

[Higga]

Stockpiling picks is nice but teams full of 20-23 year olds don't just win. At some point you gotta get some veterans and commit to winning. I think OKC was the only exception but they basically drafted THREE guys who ended up winning MVPs or being legitimate MVP candidates.

[JDizzel3000]

Well then I just don't get your point.

You don't "get" how bringing up what happened in 2000 is just as irrelevant to the conversation about the Suns vs 6ers recent successes as brining up what happened in the 80's??

So putting an arbitrary time cap on how far back in history you look to measure each teams success makes sense to you and serves as a pertinent point in regards to the conversation we've been having?



Interesting

Cut it off wherever you'd like to, ultimately it doesn't matter to me that right now, the Suns have built a pretty solid team who are on the verge of contention. The Sixers (as much as I respect and understand their plan) don't have any foreseeable winning in the near future. I can't honestly look at that team and say in 3 years they'll be winning anything.

The verge of contention?


Huh??


Contending for what? They haven't made the playoffs in 5 years guy

[bondom34]

Wow, there's no way I'd take Detroit, I wouldn't take Philly either. The Magic are close, and the Wolves I don't know enough yet. I'd probably take the Bucks and Jazz but need more of a sample to see the Jazz are as good as the last 20 games were showing first. Phoenix has the following:

I don't see why you wouldn't take Detroit ...if your comparing the two teams I'd take Drummond as having a better future than anyone on the Suns and Reggie Jackson is definitely on the level of the Suns guards ....then you throw in Stanley Johnson and the fact that another top ten pick is more than likely on its way and I really don't get your logic behind that


The Wolves? That's debatable to you? Wiggins,Lavine,Shabazz,KAT .....really??

Philly has 4 first round picks next season ...Big Jah who I fell will be better than anyone on the Suns roster moving forward NN who put up some historically great defensive numbers during the second half of the season ...again I don't get your point

A roster younger than the Wolves and Pistons.

This is disingenuous argumentation ...the wolves core is much younger than the Suns ...guys like Kevin Garnett who will not be apart of their future artificially inflate the teams average age

All of their own picks (Minnesota owes one, not sure on Detroit). Plus 3 extra firsts including a few from Miami right around when I'd say Wade is retiring. A top 5-10 PG signed long term, a big man who's close in ability to Noel, great flexibility, and was about a day away from luring LMA there. One free agent and they could be top 4 in the west to me. That's where I'd rather be.

#1 - who's there top 5 PG who speak of?

#2 - 3 extra first? You realize that one of those doesn't come until 2021? That's 5 years away my guy? The team may not even be intact as it is currently constructed by that time...a big man close to Noel? Are you serious?? I don't know where your getting your information from ...but you might want to do some actual research on the season that Noel had last season ....here's a great grantland article on it

http://grantland.com/the-triangle/nerlens-noel-the-other-rookie-of-the-year/

Len is about as much of Nerleans Noel as Eddy Curry was "BABY SHAQ" lol

Lastly I'm trying to understand how LOSING out on a prime free agent is somehow being spun as a good thing ...that is amazing to me ...so they strike out on LeBron last year ...they strike out on LMA this year and your telling me that that's good and that's where you'd want to be ...?? I'm sorry man that ...is simply insane to me...no offense


The interesting thing about this is over the past 2 seasons the Suns have actually regressed record wise ...yet I'm being told they have a better future than these other teams?


Interesting.

1. Yep, Wolves I still debate. Towns hasn't played a game, Lavine really wasn't great, and Wiggins is looking good.

2. Len put up similar defensive numbers to Noel, and is better offensively, so don't know where you're going there.

3. Okafor has yet to play a game.

4. Eric Bledsoe is somewhere in the 5-10 range.

5. Noel vs. Len, where to begin (and saying this I like Noel too)...
RPM: Noel is a -1.5, Len a -.74, so Len wins. Also, he wins in RAPM.

Rim Protection: Len 1.13 points saved/36, Noel 1.51, Noel wins.

Box Scores:
http://bkref.com/tiny/W9NgM

Len wins in most offensive metrics, Noel defensive. Its not far off at all.

5. Being considered by a prime free agent is a good thing. I can't remember Philly having that happen, and don't see it happening soon.

6. They regressed record wise because they decided to keep the young core intact and trade an older PG for 2 future firsts.

7. Why does it matter when a pick is conveyed? Its an asset, used as such. If I put money into a retirement fund, its still money, its still mine. It doesn't "not count" because its further in the future.

8. As a fan, I'd be miserable as a Sixers fan right now and this is even with the understanding of their logic. The Suns have a pretty talented young core. The Sixers have the pieces to potentially someday get one.

[bondom34]

You don't "get" how bringing up what happened in 2000 is just as irrelevant to the conversation about the Suns vs 6ers recent successes as brining up what happened in the 80's??

So putting an arbitrary time cap on how far back in history you look to measure each teams success makes sense to you and serves as a pertinent point in regards to the conversation we've been having?



Interesting

Cut it off wherever you'd like to, ultimately it doesn't matter to me that right now, the Suns have built a pretty solid team who are on the verge of contention. The Sixers (as much as I respect and understand their plan) don't have any foreseeable winning in the near future. I can't honestly look at that team and say in 3 years they'll be winning anything.

The verge of contention?


Huh??


Contending for what? They haven't made the playoffs in 5 years guy

They've barely missed the playoffs. The Sixers barely won 20 games.

[rsavaj]

Sports are supposed to be fun. Watching the Suns lose isn't very fun at all. I don't know if I would continue watching the Suns if they decided to lose 60 or 70 games every year. Now that I'm closer to 30 than 20, I don't have the time/patience anymore to stress about the Suns potentially never winning a title. My priorities as a fan have shifted. Watching basketball is one of my favorite diversions when I need to check out of the real world for a bit. When I come home from work, I want to watch a fun, competitive team filled with guys I like rooting for.

turns out rooting for wroten, noel, okafor and covington is just as much fun (if not more) as rooting for hawes, jrue, turner or kwame. sure the latter team might win some more games, but what's the difference really? you said winning a championship is not important, so winning a few more games is? the sixers have quite a likeable bunch of young guys most of whom have potential to improve significantly. what's wrong with rooting for them?

Nothing at all.

[joyeuxnoel]

Cut it off wherever you'd like to, ultimately it doesn't matter to me that right now, the Suns have built a pretty solid team who are on the verge of contention. The Sixers (as much as I respect and understand their plan) don't have any foreseeable winning in the near future. I can't honestly look at that team and say in 3 years they'll be winning anything.

The verge of contention?

Huh??

Contending for what? They haven't made the playoffs in 5 years guy

They've barely missed the playoffs. The Sixers barely won 20 games.

They went 10-18 without dragic and IT

Also Noel went from the worst offensive big in beginning of year to a plus player offensively after the Allstar break

His offensive metrics are better than len's the 2nd half