Suns Offseason Thread 4: Where's Terrence Williams?

[rsavaj]

I like Gallo a LOT, but I'd be hesitant moving Kieff for him. If you view Gallo as a better player than Kieff, I don't think you could argue that he's so much better that it warrants trading a productive player we have locked up on a great contract for a guy who could get some crazy stupid max deal next summer from a team that's desperate for above-average free agents(Sacramento, anyone?).

Still, Gallo makes a ton of sense. I'm not so concerned about his health issues with our training staff, and the Chandler/Len duo at Center alleviates a lot of my concerns about Gallo getting demolished playing the 4.

I wouldn't do that deal UNLESS Markieff really wants to get the hell out of here after we dumped his bro. If he comes to training camp ticked off and he's clearly not giving his best effort, then I'll drive him to Sky Harbor myself if it meant Gallo coming here.

[AtheJ415]

Again, to get Gallo the Suns would have to move about $7.5M in salary, which means we would have to trade Markieff, Len, Warren or Bledsoe. It's not happening. We can stop talking about it.

Not from what I read on Brightside. Are you including McNeal, who is going to be cut? We'd need about 6.5, meaning Tucker's 5.3 or so plus 1.2 or so in filler.

Nope.

Bledsoe $13.5M
Chandler $13.0M
Keef $8.0M
Tucker $5.5M
Teletovic $5.5M
Len $3.8M
Booker $2.1M
Warren $2.1M
Goodwin $1.1M
Leuer $1.0M
Beasley $0.8M
(Knight $8.9M)
(incomplete roster charge $0.5M)

TOTAL $65,9M
Cap space $4.1M

Gallinari $11.5M

11.5 - 4.1 = 7.4

Nope. Updated today. Check Brightside. Claiming $6 mil in cap space with ability to add $6 mil more than sent out in a trade.

[AtheJ415]

I like Gallo a LOT, but I'd be hesitant moving Kieff for him. If you view Gallo as a better player than Kieff, I don't think you could argue that he's so much better that it warrants trading a productive player we have locked up on a great contract for a guy who could get some crazy stupid max deal next summer from a team that's desperate for above-average free agents(Sacramento, anyone?).

Still, Gallo makes a ton of sense. I'm not so concerned about his health issues with our training staff, and the Chandler/Len duo at Center alleviates a lot of my concerns about Gallo getting demolished playing the 4.

I wouldn't do that deal UNLESS Markieff really wants to get the hell out of here after we dumped his bro. If he comes to training camp ticked off and he's clearly not giving his best effort, then I'll drive him to Sky Harbor myself if it meant Gallo coming here.

I don't think we'd have to trade Markieff for him. I think we could trade Tucker and filler, plus picks.

[rsavaj]

I like Gallo a LOT, but I'd be hesitant moving Kieff for him. If you view Gallo as a better player than Kieff, I don't think you could argue that he's so much better that it warrants trading a productive player we have locked up on a great contract for a guy who could get some crazy stupid max deal next summer from a team that's desperate for above-average free agents(Sacramento, anyone?).

Still, Gallo makes a ton of sense. I'm not so concerned about his health issues with our training staff, and the Chandler/Len duo at Center alleviates a lot of my concerns about Gallo getting demolished playing the 4.

I wouldn't do that deal UNLESS Markieff really wants to get the hell out of here after we dumped his bro. If he comes to training camp ticked off and he's clearly not giving his best effort, then I'll drive him to Sky Harbor myself if it meant Gallo coming here.

I don't think we'd have to trade Markieff for him. I think we could trade Tucker and filler, plus picks.

Well, if that's all it would take, sign me up!

[AtheJ415]

McNeal's contract becomes fully guaranteed if not waived today.

Brightside is saying July 21st, which makes sense because it would be after summer league. Not sure why we'd guarantee it today, but if so he has to be cut. Nice guy but he's been outplayed by just about every PG I've watched across summer league.

[Djedefre]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/IAmDPick/status/621281505042661376[/tweet]

I' struggling to find words to describe those waves of anger when i see Pick's tweets.

'...if Bogdan has another monster season...'

Wait. This means two things - the first is that Bogdan had a 'monster' 2014/2015 season which is nor statistically, nor visually true (Fener did poor results in terms of what were the goals before the season, and Bogdan had much much less protagonism than last year in Partizan. Defense improved, but overall not mind blowing production on offense) and the second is that putting huge numbers is mandatory to give him the entering card for Suns/NBA like all the other Euro players were molesting the opponents before going overseas.

[jcsunsfan]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/IAmDPick/status/621281505042661376[/tweet]

I' struggling to find words to describe those waves of anger when i see Pick's tweets.

'...if Bogdan has another monster season...'

Wait. This means two things - the first is that Bogdan had a 'monster' 2014/2015 season which is nor statistically, nor visually true (Fener did poor results in terms of what were the goals before the season, and Bogdan had much much less protagonism than last year in Partizan. Defense improved, but overall not mind blowing production on offense) and the second is that putting huge numbers is mandatory to give him the entering card for Suns/NBA like all the other Euro players were molesting the opponents before going overseas.

OK. A few things here. First, thanks for posting. Obviously English is not your first language, yet you are jumping right into the discussion. You probably have a perspective that most of here do not. So thank you.

Second, I would think that being named as the European Rising Star two years in a row would count as being "monster." I get the impression that statistical comparisons are lower in Europe because of the style of play and especially for younger players because of the fact that it is much harder for younger players to get minutes on the floor.

Third. I highly doubt that having huge numbers is the primary reason why Bogdan would come to the NBA. The primary issue will be skill development and effectiveness.

[gaspar]

McNeal's contract becomes fully guaranteed if not waived today.

Brightside is saying July 21st, which makes sense because it would be after summer league. Not sure why we'd guarantee it today, but if so he has to be cut. Nice guy but he's been outplayed by just about every PG I've watched across summer league.

Oh well, Bobby Marks was wrong again. Sorry for the misinformation.

[gaspar]

Not from what I read on Brightside. Are you including McNeal, who is going to be cut? We'd need about 6.5, meaning Tucker's 5.3 or so plus 1.2 or so in filler.

Nope.

Bledsoe $13.5M
Chandler $13.0M
Keef $8.0M
Tucker $5.5M
Teletovic $5.5M
Len $3.8M
Booker $2.1M
Warren $2.1M
Goodwin $1.1M
Leuer $1.0M
Beasley $0.8M
(Knight $8.9M)
(incomplete roster charge $0.5M)

TOTAL $65,9M
Cap space $4.1M

Gallinari $11.5M

11.5 - 4.1 = 7.4

Nope. Updated today. Check Brightside. Claiming $6 mil in cap space with ability to add $6 mil more than sent out in a trade.

How? What am I missing?

[Djedefre]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/IAmDPick/status/621281505042661376[/tweet]

I' struggling to find words to describe those waves of anger when i see Pick's tweets.

'...if Bogdan has another monster season...'

Wait. This means two things - the first is that Bogdan had a 'monster' 2014/2015 season which is nor statistically, nor visually true (Fener did poor results in terms of what were the goals before the season, and Bogdan had much much less protagonism than last year in Partizan. Defense improved, but overall not mind blowing production on offense) and the second is that putting huge numbers is mandatory to give him the entering card for Suns/NBA like all the other Euro players were molesting the opponents before going overseas.

OK. A few things here. First, thanks for posting. Obviously English is not your first language, yet you are jumping right into the discussion. You probably have a perspective that most of here do not. So thank you.

Second, I would think that being named as the European Rising Star two years in a row would count as being "monster." I get the impression that statistical comparisons are lower in Europe because of the style of play and especially for younger players because of the fact that it is much harder for younger players to get minutes on the floor.

Third. I highly doubt that having huge numbers is the primary reason why Bogdan would come to the NBA. The primary issue will be skill development and effectiveness.

Do you remember the last time when Pick was actually right? He puts a tons of posts with that magical 'sources say' and how many of them happen to be true eventually? He has questionable credibility, at least.

You're just two clicks away from Bogdan's stats in EL this season. There is nothing 'monster' there. He simply didn't get the ball as much as he liked. Combo with Goudelock hit the wall as these two demand exactly the same - ball and space to create (Goudelock almost only for himslef, Bogdan for his teammates too). He certainly had more than a few really good games on both ends of the floor, but the whole season went to adapting and finding a role for himself. How Pick put it, it seems that Suns are expecting very much just to give him a chance to try his luck in the NBA, and that's ridiculous because almost 3/4 of draftees take two or more years in the league to step up.

This European rising star award is a special story - what is the point of awarding the same player two years in a row? He already established himself as a young star in previous year and EL should have looked at other young players who just got those minutes to show their potential.

[aIvin adams]

I like Gallo a LOT, but I'd be hesitant moving Kieff for him. If you view Gallo as a better player than Kieff, I don't think you could argue that he's so much better that it warrants trading a productive player we have locked up on a great contract for a guy who could get some crazy stupid max deal next summer from a team that's desperate for above-average free agents(Sacramento, anyone?).

Still, Gallo makes a ton of sense. I'm not so concerned about his health issues with our training staff, and the Chandler/Len duo at Center alleviates a lot of my concerns about Gallo getting demolished playing the 4.

I wouldn't do that deal UNLESS Markieff really wants to get the hell out of here after we dumped his bro. If he comes to training camp ticked off and he's clearly not giving his best effort, then I'll drive him to Sky Harbor myself if it meant Gallo coming here.

cool somebody put all my thoughts together coherently and as a bonus...used correct capitalization and grammar

thx mang

[aIvin adams]

I' struggling to find words to describe those waves of anger when i see Pick's tweets.

'...if Bogdan has another monster season...'

Wait. This means two things - the first is that Bogdan had a 'monster' 2014/2015 season which is nor statistically, nor visually true (Fener did poor results in terms of what were the goals before the season, and Bogdan had much much less protagonism than last year in Partizan. Defense improved, but overall not mind blowing production on offense) and the second is that putting huge numbers is mandatory to give him the entering card for Suns/NBA like all the other Euro players were molesting the opponents before going overseas.

OK. A few things here. First, thanks for posting. Obviously English is not your first language, yet you are jumping right into the discussion. You probably have a perspective that most of here do not. So thank you.

Second, I would think that being named as the European Rising Star two years in a row would count as being "monster." I get the impression that statistical comparisons are lower in Europe because of the style of play and especially for younger players because of the fact that it is much harder for younger players to get minutes on the floor.

Third. I highly doubt that having huge numbers is the primary reason why Bogdan would come to the NBA. The primary issue will be skill development and effectiveness.

Do you remember the last time when Pick was actually right? He puts a tons of posts with that magical 'sources say' and how many of them happen to be true eventually? He has questionable credibility, at least.

You're just two clicks away from Bogdan's stats in EL this season. There is nothing 'monster' there. He simply didn't get the ball as much as he liked. Combo with Goudelock hit the wall as these two demand exactly the same - ball and space to create (Goudelock almost only for himslef, Bogdan for his teammates too). He certainly had more than a few really good games on both ends of the floor, but the whole season went to adapting and finding a role for himself. How Pick put it, it seems that Suns are expecting very much just to give him a chance to try his luck in the NBA, and that's ridiculous because almost 3/4 of draftees take two or more years in the league to step up.

This European rising star award is a special story - what is the point of awarding the same player two years in a row? He already established himself as a young star in previous year and EL should have looked at other young players who just got those minutes to show their potential.

i understand that the EL Rising Star award is voted on by head coaches.

mirotic also won back to back a cpl years ago.

[saintEscaton]

Bogdan is probably our starting SG of the future. Bank on it

[aIvin adams]

Bogdanovic won his first MVP of the week honor after Top 16 Round 11 when he torched EA7 Emporio Armani Milan for 25 points, 4 assists and 2 steals and a performance index rating of 32 in a 98-77 victory that clinched Fenerbahce’s first playoff berth since 2008. ... He was also among the top three in scoring (10.7 ppg., third), three-pointers made (second), assists (first), steals (0.8 spg., second) and fouls drawn (2.5, third) among all Rising Star Trophy-eligible players this season.

http://www.euroleague.net/news/i/5xr5u88astihvwuj/euroleague-rising-star-trophy-bogdan-bogdanovic-fenerbahce-ulker-istanbul


looks legit to me

[NavLDO]

And that's not true, anyway. The two are within 2/100ths of a % ... [lots of random box score stats].

I have a hard time with a player comparison that's entirely composed of box score stats...even though you're using the good ones. I believe in combining more than one of the following:

1. Some version of APM/RAPM
2. Lineup analysis
3. Per possession* and/or advanced box score stats
4. Eye test

* I don't think per game box score stats are even worth looking at.

I feel like using just 3, just 4, or even a combo of just 3 & 4, is mostly a waste of time. 3 and 4 can definitely be helpful, but you've gotta have some of #1 and/or #2 in there to paint a full picture.

Ok, so here are some 2015 RAPM numbers to get started.

• Gallinari +1.77
• Teletovic -1.04

This version of multi-year RAPM has Gallo as a plus on both offense and defense, and has Telly as a minus on both offense and defense. That difference, 2.81, is a little bit bigger than the difference between Kevin Garnett and Glen Davis...or the difference between Derrick Rose and Michael Carter-Williams...or the difference between Marc Gasol and Jeff Withey.

Now, let's all agree that no version of RAPM is perfect/has all the answers. But let's also agree that a case based on a few box score numbers from a couple of playoff series does not automatically trump multiple years worth of RAPM data that shows a LARGE gap in on-court effectiveness. You gotta have more than that.

So Tony Allen (4.45), Mike Dunleavy (3.69), George Hill (3.65), Ricky Rubio (4.24), Nick Collison (4.45), Patty Mills (3.94), Matt Barnes (3.81), etc., are also about that much better than Gallinari, right??? And not only that, but they are better than Duncan (3.04), Butler (2.83), Melo, Love, Wall, etc. Heck, Anthony Tolliver scored a 2.74...why are we wasting time with Gallinari at almost $12M at 1.77, when we could have Tolliver at 2.74 for $3M?

So, I'll be looking at stats that actually reflect the players play, not on some formula that attempts to take in all sorts of fators to compute some random number, that doesn't tell me anymore than what individual players stats tell me. Because, according to this list you provided, you've got guys that are barely starters, or heck, barely 2nd team bench guys that are scoring higher than Cousins. Are you really trying to ell me that Gllinari has more effect on a team's success than Cousins? Gasol? Noah? Smart? Beal? Rose? Dragic? The list goes on and on. Or guys like Reggie Evans, Tucker, Thompson, Gobert, etc., are all 'negative'

Sorry, but I, along with many others, are not buying it. These super advanced metrics are not all what they are cracked up to be, so just because you can attribute some stats to these metrics in some cases, they don't correlate in others.

The fact is, I, and others, would rather have Mirza than Gallinari on this team. So in response to Sabrestar, sure Gallinari is likely a better player, but I said its not OBVIOUS that he is, as they play two different positions, have different NBA experience/background, etc. And Mirza, at $6M less next season, is a much better option for us. And yes Sabrestar, our team needs better players, but we don't need $11.55M added to our roster/cap, because Gallinari is not a difference maker. Adding him to the team hurts us more than helps us, IMO. There is a reason he's on the trading block in Denver--it's because he's not worth $11.55M this season. Next season? Sure, that's about the right value for him, but not this season. We can try to get him next season in FA, if he's needed, but Gallinari is not the difference between this team making the plaoffs and not--not IMO.

[rsavaj]

I' struggling to find words to describe those waves of anger when i see Pick's tweets.

'...if Bogdan has another monster season...'

Wait. This means two things - the first is that Bogdan had a 'monster' 2014/2015 season which is nor statistically, nor visually true (Fener did poor results in terms of what were the goals before the season, and Bogdan had much much less protagonism than last year in Partizan. Defense improved, but overall not mind blowing production on offense) and the second is that putting huge numbers is mandatory to give him the entering card for Suns/NBA like all the other Euro players were molesting the opponents before going overseas.

OK. A few things here. First, thanks for posting. Obviously English is not your first language, yet you are jumping right into the discussion. You probably have a perspective that most of here do not. So thank you.

Second, I would think that being named as the European Rising Star two years in a row would count as being "monster." I get the impression that statistical comparisons are lower in Europe because of the style of play and especially for younger players because of the fact that it is much harder for younger players to get minutes on the floor.

Third. I highly doubt that having huge numbers is the primary reason why Bogdan would come to the NBA. The primary issue will be skill development and effectiveness.

Do you remember the last time when Pick was actually right? He puts a tons of posts with that magical 'sources say' and how many of them happen to be true eventually? He has questionable credibility, at least.

You're just two clicks away from Bogdan's stats in EL this season. There is nothing 'monster' there. He simply didn't get the ball as much as he liked. Combo with Goudelock hit the wall as these two demand exactly the same - ball and space to create (Goudelock almost only for himslef, Bogdan for his teammates too). He certainly had more than a few really good games on both ends of the floor, but the whole season went to adapting and finding a role for himself. How Pick put it, it seems that Suns are expecting very much just to give him a chance to try his luck in the NBA, and that's ridiculous because almost 3/4 of draftees take two or more years in the league to step up.

This European rising star award is a special story - what is the point of awarding the same player two years in a row? He already established himself as a young star in previous year and EL should have looked at other young players who just got those minutes to show their potential.

Well, Pick did report LMA to SAS before anybody else. And he also reported Weems to PHX before anybody else.

Lotta state-side reporters think of him as the Euro Woj. He hasn't said anything too outrageous yet, unlike a guy like Broussard.

[Djedefre]

Bogdanovic won his first MVP of the week honor after Top 16 Round 11 when he torched EA7 Emporio Armani Milan for 25 points, 4 assists and 2 steals and a performance index rating of 32 in a 98-77 victory that clinched Fenerbahce’s first playoff berth since 2008. ... He was also among the top three in scoring (10.7 ppg., third), three-pointers made (second), assists (first), steals (0.8 spg., second) and fouls drawn (2.5, third) among all Rising Star Trophy-eligible players this season.

http://www.euroleague.net/news/i/5xr5u88astihvwuj/euroleague-rising-star-trophy-bogdan-bogdanovic-fenerbahce-ulker-istanbul


looks legit to me

Take the rookie of the year award for example - you are a rookie when you enter the league and only for that season. Or most improved player - you're showing promise, elevating your game and even making into all-NBA team. All these means that next year you are out of question for MIP.
The same should be with Rising Star and that is the reason why it can only be considered as indicator that potential is there. Bogdan deserved it (when he is eligible for it and that's my main reproach) but it doesn't mean that much for him in this phase of his career and fans shouldn't fetishize it.

[aIvin adams]

wow.... i mean... mirza is a role player and might be a very good one. but Gallo has all-star talent. he can do everything-- shoot, dribble, drive, score at the rim... he's basically good at everything on offense with and without the ball (except, maybe, passing which i think he's OK at and i don't think he's ever been asked to do)

the rooster has elite talent at getting to the FT line. that's the kind of skill you can build an offense around. mirza can spread the floor at the four spot, which is the kind of skill you look for once you already have a player like gallo. Gallo has also shown the ability to play very good defense on elite wing scorers in this league. he doesn't get steals bc he plays old school in-your-teeth man defense and doesn't gamble.

basically he's just a bundle of injury problems that has prevented him from breeaking out. he's probably average at the stuff he's worst at (rebounding, passing) but he's got top tier ability as a scorer and defender

[jcsunsfan]

Bogdan is probably our starting SG of the future. Bank on it

I would not bet on Bogdan over Booker.

[jcsunsfan]

OK. A few things here. First, thanks for posting. Obviously English is not your first language, yet you are jumping right into the discussion. You probably have a perspective that most of here do not. So thank you.

Second, I would think that being named as the European Rising Star two years in a row would count as being "monster." I get the impression that statistical comparisons are lower in Europe because of the style of play and especially for younger players because of the fact that it is much harder for younger players to get minutes on the floor.

Third. I highly doubt that having huge numbers is the primary reason why Bogdan would come to the NBA. The primary issue will be skill development and effectiveness.

Do you remember the last time when Pick was actually right? He puts a tons of posts with that magical 'sources say' and how many of them happen to be true eventually? He has questionable credibility, at least.

You're just two clicks away from Bogdan's stats in EL this season. There is nothing 'monster' there. He simply didn't get the ball as much as he liked. Combo with Goudelock hit the wall as these two demand exactly the same - ball and space to create (Goudelock almost only for himslef, Bogdan for his teammates too). He certainly had more than a few really good games on both ends of the floor, but the whole season went to adapting and finding a role for himself. How Pick put it, it seems that Suns are expecting very much just to give him a chance to try his luck in the NBA, and that's ridiculous because almost 3/4 of draftees take two or more years in the league to step up.

This European rising star award is a special story - what is the point of awarding the same player two years in a row? He already established himself as a young star in previous year and EL should have looked at other young players who just got those minutes to show their potential.

Well, Pick did report LMA to SAS before anybody else. And he also reported Weems to PHX before anybody else.

Lotta state-side reporters think of him as the Euro Woj. He hasn't said anything too outrageous yet, unlike a guy like Broussard.

Yup. He knew LMA was going to SAS and not the Suns BEFORE LMA himself knew. That's not reporting, that's guessing.