Zach Lowe article on Suns and Sixers rebuild going in different directions

[Stoked]

I see the Sixers as how not to build thru the draft.

If you want to see how to build thru the draft look at teams like the Spurs and Jazz.

one of those doesnt look like the other, jazz recent draft history:

2010- hayward. great value for 9th pick. A
2011- kanter- traded for a 2017 protected pick. C-
2011- Burks- decent role player- C+
2012- none
2013- traded dieng and shabazz for trey burke, who are both better than burke- F
2013- traded for gobert - A
2014- exum- As expected he struggled his rookie year since hes raw and needs time to develop, but right now all his potential hinders on if he can actually finish or that first step is useless- INCOMPLETE
2014- hood- log jammed behind burks- INCOMPLETE
2015-trey lyles- INCOMPLETE

the jazz aren't awful at drafting, but i wouldn't say they're on the spurs level either

also how is the sixers way not how to build through the draft? acquire as many high draft picks as possible, draft BPA. more likely than not you'll hit than bust

Because it is going to take them forever to build off it and the guys they first drafted in this rebuild are being traded off or will be able to bolt. Plus they have drafter the same position multiple drafts in a row.

Spurs have the end results of building thru the draft, their history, and the Jazz are at a much younger stage of it. Clearly there is a level of difference. But the 76ers should roughly be where Utah is and they are no where even close to Utah.

As for your grades:

I'd give the Hood draft an A. He was the steal of that draft. He played at a very high level to finish the season and toyed with the SL guys.

Exum I'd give a C+ at this point but I think that will turn into a solid B this season.

Gobert Id give an A++

Agree on Burke. But the Jazz have Corbin to thank for that.

[HartfordWhalers]

Len also was injured for a decent chunk of that time, and his plus/minus numbers still were better than Noel. I'd take Noel over him, but its not a "blow him out of the water, no debate" kind of thing.

Plus minus is a pretty misleading stat when you're comparing a bottom 5 record team to a near playoff team in the west

A better stat is how much better/worse the team is when player x is on the floor

I believe the sixers were +5 better with NN on the floor, not sure about alex len

Yeah, don't know how to do on/off by month, but for the season Noel was plus 0.3 net rating, Len plus 0.8.

I wouldn't really focus on doing the work for an on-off on a monthly basis when it is going to be noisy as is.

But for the post all star break period:
Phx was 3.7 PP round trip possession better with Len than without him.
Philly was 3.8 PP round trip possession better with Noel than without him.

And each team had similar margins in general, with Phx getting outscored by 4.9 points per game, while Philly was by 5.8.

Where it gets interesting is if you look at something like the Oratings and Dratings of the players computed for that time.

Len: 93.4 Orating, 102.4 Drating -9.0 difference
Noel: 105.7 Orating, 96.5 Drating + 9.2 difference

Links for those that need em:
http://basketball.realgm.com/nba/teams/Phoenix-Suns/23/stats/2015/Advanced_Stats/Qualified/ediff/All/desc/1/Post-All-Star_Game
http://basketball.realgm.com/nba/teams/Philadelphia-Sixers/22/stats/2015/Advanced_Stats/Qualified/ediff/All/desc/1/Post-All-Star_Game

A really detailed analysis of the two players should probably fit better on teh player comparison board, but it is worth noting that when just lumping this year together and blindly comparing them that the factors of age/experience/learning curve/teammates should be accounted for.

Noel is a full year younger, and didn't get the 400 minute burn last year that Len did. And both players had awful scoring stats in their first 400 minutes in the league. {Noel's could arguably have been made worse by not playing a meaningful game in over a year and a half.}

But taking just this years stats and comparing them eliminates the first awkward adjustment period for Len and doesn't for Noel.

Similarly to above if you look at the splits an focus on that offense of Len's

Len had a 44.5% TS% post all star game (8.5 points per 36 pace adjusted)
Noel had a 52.8% TS% post all star game (14.4 points per 36 pace adjusted)

Around the same time there were serious pg changes for both teams. And both players score off others to similar amounts:
Len: 66.9% assisted baskets
Noel: 67.2% assisted baskets

[bondom34]

Plus minus is a pretty misleading stat when you're comparing a bottom 5 record team to a near playoff team in the west

A better stat is how much better/worse the team is when player x is on the floor

I believe the sixers were +5 better with NN on the floor, not sure about alex len

Yeah, don't know how to do on/off by month, but for the season Noel was plus 0.3 net rating, Len plus 0.8.

I wouldn't really focus on doing the work for an on-off on a monthly basis when it is going to be noisy as is.

But for the post all star break period:
Phx was 3.7 PP round trip possession better with Len than without him.
Philly was 3.8 PP round trip possession better with Noel than without him.

And each team had similar margins in general, with Phx getting outscored by 4.9 points per game, while Philly was by 5.8.

Where it gets interesting is if you look at something like the Oratings and Dratings of the players computed for that time.

Len: 93.4 Orating, 102.4 Drating -9.0 difference
Noel: 105.7 Orating, 96.5 Drating + 9.2 difference

Links for those that need em:
http://basketball.realgm.com/nba/teams/Phoenix-Suns/23/stats/2015/Advanced_Stats/Qualified/ediff/All/desc/1/Post-All-Star_Game
http://basketball.realgm.com/nba/teams/Philadelphia-Sixers/22/stats/2015/Advanced_Stats/Qualified/ediff/All/desc/1/Post-All-Star_Game

A really detailed analysis of the two players should probably fit better on teh player comparison board, but it is worth noting that when just lumping this year together and blindly comparing them that the factors of age/experience/learning curve/teammates should be accounted for.

Noel is a full year younger, and didn't get the 400 minute burn last year that Len did. And both players had awful scoring stats in their first 400 minutes in the league. {Noel's could arguably have been made worse by not playing a meaningful game in over a year and a half.}

But taking just this years stats and comparing them eliminates the first awkward adjustment period for Len and doesn't for Noel.

Similarly to above if you look at the splits an focus on that offense of Len's

Len had a 44.5% TS% post all star game (8.5 points per 36 pace adjusted)
Noel had a 52.8% TS% post all star game (14.4 points per 36 pace adjusted)

Around the same time there were serious pg changes for both teams. And both players score off others to similar amounts:
Len: 66.9% assisted baskets
Noel: 67.2% assisted baskets

Just as a point on this, its still missing that Len had an injured ankle and didn't play a bunch of games as well.

[HartfordWhalers]

Yeah, don't know how to do on/off by month, but for the season Noel was plus 0.3 net rating, Len plus 0.8.

I wouldn't really focus on doing the work for an on-off on a monthly basis when it is going to be noisy as is.

But for the post all star break period:
Phx was 3.7 PP round trip possession better with Len than without him.
Philly was 3.8 PP round trip possession better with Noel than without him.

And each team had similar margins in general, with Phx getting outscored by 4.9 points per game, while Philly was by 5.8.

Where it gets interesting is if you look at something like the Oratings and Dratings of the players computed for that time.

Len: 93.4 Orating, 102.4 Drating -9.0 difference
Noel: 105.7 Orating, 96.5 Drating + 9.2 difference

Links for those that need em:
http://basketball.realgm.com/nba/teams/Phoenix-Suns/23/stats/2015/Advanced_Stats/Qualified/ediff/All/desc/1/Post-All-Star_Game
http://basketball.realgm.com/nba/teams/Philadelphia-Sixers/22/stats/2015/Advanced_Stats/Qualified/ediff/All/desc/1/Post-All-Star_Game

A really detailed analysis of the two players should probably fit better on teh player comparison board, but it is worth noting that when just lumping this year together and blindly comparing them that the factors of age/experience/learning curve/teammates should be accounted for.

Noel is a full year younger, and didn't get the 400 minute burn last year that Len did. And both players had awful scoring stats in their first 400 minutes in the league. {Noel's could arguably have been made worse by not playing a meaningful game in over a year and a half.}

But taking just this years stats and comparing them eliminates the first awkward adjustment period for Len and doesn't for Noel.

Similarly to above if you look at the splits an focus on that offense of Len's

Len had a 44.5% TS% post all star game (8.5 points per 36 pace adjusted)
Noel had a 52.8% TS% post all star game (14.4 points per 36 pace adjusted)

Around the same time there were serious pg changes for both teams. And both players score off others to similar amounts:
Len: 66.9% assisted baskets
Noel: 67.2% assisted baskets

Just as a point on this, its still missing that Len had an injured ankle and didn't play a bunch of games as well.

Not sure where that is missing from. I noted that his first year was that ~400 minutes (362).

[bondom34]

I wouldn't really focus on doing the work for an on-off on a monthly basis when it is going to be noisy as is.

But for the post all star break period:
Phx was 3.7 PP round trip possession better with Len than without him.
Philly was 3.8 PP round trip possession better with Noel than without him.

And each team had similar margins in general, with Phx getting outscored by 4.9 points per game, while Philly was by 5.8.

Where it gets interesting is if you look at something like the Oratings and Dratings of the players computed for that time.

Len: 93.4 Orating, 102.4 Drating -9.0 difference
Noel: 105.7 Orating, 96.5 Drating + 9.2 difference

Links for those that need em:
http://basketball.realgm.com/nba/teams/Phoenix-Suns/23/stats/2015/Advanced_Stats/Qualified/ediff/All/desc/1/Post-All-Star_Game
http://basketball.realgm.com/nba/teams/Philadelphia-Sixers/22/stats/2015/Advanced_Stats/Qualified/ediff/All/desc/1/Post-All-Star_Game

A really detailed analysis of the two players should probably fit better on teh player comparison board, but it is worth noting that when just lumping this year together and blindly comparing them that the factors of age/experience/learning curve/teammates should be accounted for.

Noel is a full year younger, and didn't get the 400 minute burn last year that Len did. And both players had awful scoring stats in their first 400 minutes in the league. {Noel's could arguably have been made worse by not playing a meaningful game in over a year and a half.}

But taking just this years stats and comparing them eliminates the first awkward adjustment period for Len and doesn't for Noel.

Similarly to above if you look at the splits an focus on that offense of Len's

Len had a 44.5% TS% post all star game (8.5 points per 36 pace adjusted)
Noel had a 52.8% TS% post all star game (14.4 points per 36 pace adjusted)

Around the same time there were serious pg changes for both teams. And both players score off others to similar amounts:
Len: 66.9% assisted baskets
Noel: 67.2% assisted baskets

Just as a point on this, its still missing that Len had an injured ankle and didn't play a bunch of games as well.

Not sure where that is missing from. I noted that his first year was that ~400 minutes (362).

I meant Len missed time post all star this year. That likely hurt his numbers a bit. As I've said, I still take Noel over him, but its not entirely cut and dry.

[aIvin adams]

I'd take Noel over Len right now but hey... I'm glad to have one of them

[HartfordWhalers]

Just as a point on this, its still missing that Len had an injured ankle and didn't play a bunch of games as well.

Not sure where that is missing from. I noted that his first year was that ~400 minutes (362).

I meant Len missed time post all star this year. That likely hurt his numbers a bit. As I've said, I still take Noel over him, but its not entirely cut and dry.

Wasn't his missed time with a nose injury?
How would that effect per 36 minute pace adjusted stats?

[bondom34]

Not sure where that is missing from. I noted that his first year was that ~400 minutes (362).

I meant Len missed time post all star this year. That likely hurt his numbers a bit. As I've said, I still take Noel over him, but its not entirely cut and dry.

Wasn't his missed time with a nose injury?
How would that effect per 36 minute pace adjusted stats?

He missed a few toward the end with a nose injury, but also ankles. And I'd expect that would effect a lot of mobility.

[bwgood77]

The Suns haven't made the playoffs in 5 years my man ..possibly going on 6.... The 6ers have been to the post season more recent than your team ....yet ...you are celebrating being able to get the 13th pick in the draft better than another team?


That's quite strange ...

True, yet it was the east conference getting one of the last two seeds by winning 41 or 35 games. The last time Philly had a record as good as the Suns did last year was in 2002-03. Not terribly impressive.

#1 that franchise has had a MUCH richer and more successful history than the Suns if you really want to get into a back and forth about records and accomplishments ....I really don't think you want tongi down that path of brining up extended history ...


#2 sticking to what we're actually talking about here ...I'd like to know if essentially what you are trying to infer is that winning regular season games >>>> getting to watch your team go to the playoffs


If so ....I'd say that it would be very telling in regards to the general psyche of a Suns fan

Well, if you are only going by the championship metric, then Philly would have the 2-0 advantage, though of course those were 30+ years ago. However, the Suns have been much more of a winning franchise overall, having won over 55% of their games, where the Sixers have been about a 500 team.

It still doesn't change the fact that the last time Philly had as good of a record as the Suns did just last year, was in 2002-03.

#2 - That's a ridiculous question. You want to win regular season games to get into the playoffs. The Suns would have been seeded higher than the Sixers had they had the record they had last year in the east, the last two times the Sixers made the playoffs.

Getting to the playoffs a few years back for the Sixers was great, I suppose, but I don't know if bragging about getting the 7th or 8th seed in the east makes sense, when those were simply worse teams than last year's Suns.

[bondom34]

I'd take Noel over Len right now but hey... I'm glad to have one of them

And really, this.

[Philly_3]

How did this thread turn into Phoenix vs Philly? ugh!
I guess we didn't have enough people who hate us already.

[JDizzel3000]

1. I think so too, but they've still got 2 very good core players maybe 3 if Rubio counts. Wiggins/KAT/Rubio? Could be good, maybe not, though more likely they are.

2. Again, offense is half the game. I never said what you're saying I did. I said overall they've shown similar production. Offense + defense.

3. Well, Phoenix has a pretty good looking rookie too, so there's that as well.

4. I take CP3, Curry, Westbrook, Irving, Wall all over him for sure. He's close to Lillard/Conley/Lowry/Teague/Dragic. One of the best defensive PGs in the game and a crazy athlete, doesn't put up eye popping box score stats but is capable of it at times, he's certainly in the mix.

5. They got Chandler? And what targets did Philly whiff on? They were a bit worse off huh?

6. Knight got hurt....though it doesn't seem you paid much actual attention to the Suns, you just enjoy critiquing them.

7. Future picks can still be used as current currency. Hence "why does it matter". Those picks are just as valuable as any other, as you said they can be traded. You can use that asset before 5 years from now.

8. As a fan I'd be miserable watching a team with very little cohesiveness win 25 games a year and prior to that be a treadmill level team the years before.

1.Sounds like you're on the fence there

2.like I said ..I don't really see a discernible difference in offensive production ..as I illustrated with the post ASG stats ..I do however see on in regards to Noel's defensive impact

3.You talking about Booker? I like him ..wouldn't put him in the OK4 KAT tier tho ..


4. Like I said ...I'll take all those guys over Bledsoe (and I like Bledsoe a lot actually)

5. What players did the 6ers target? How were they a bit worse off if their objective was never to chase free agents? I mean where do you get this idea that a team is obligated to chase after the biggest name in free agency year in year out? That's a very strange point that your attempting to make ...the 6ers are developing the young talent not bringing in 33 year old vets to get in the way of that young talent ...more interesting may be the fact the Suns felt the need to go get Chandler in th first place .... That doesn't sound like a team too confident in their young big man if you ask me ...

6.He played terrible while he was there ...am I supposed to just ignore that as its convenient to your argument? He was hurt ok ....annnnddd???

at the most if you wanted to be objective we would say who knows what that back court duo will look like ...but that's not what you've been saying ..you're saying that with that backcourt combo they're playoff contenders ...which is interesting because nothing from them playing together last year would support that claim


7. Sure future picks can be used as current currency ...but saying that those picks are just as valuable as the 6ers top 3 pick in next years draft is fallacious.... You don't know what that pick is or where it will be ...if I'm a prospective trade partner your not convincing me that a pick down the road in 5 years holds the same value as a top 3 pick next season ...that's just ....silly ....furthermore taking the trade option off the table ...how do you consider a pick that's 5 years down the road just as valuable to the CURRENT rebuilding of the Suns team as the 4 first round picks the sixers own next season? Those will be converted into 4 players that will help the sixers get better in the now ... How does a 2021 pick help the Suns get better in the now unless it's used as trade bait?

8.Again ..5 straight years of missing the playoffs and a team that just regressed last season would not only make me feel miserable ... i'd be frightened

[Latrell]

How did this thread turn into Phoenix vs Philly? ugh!
I guess we didn't have enough people who hate us already.

We don't hate you. We hate your GM.

And it's not because fans of other teams are 'threatened' by your tanking. Its because your doing it so blatantly its offensive to the league and game of basketball.

Its within the rules though, so more power to ya I guess.

[bondom34]

1. I think so too, but they've still got 2 very good core players maybe 3 if Rubio counts. Wiggins/KAT/Rubio? Could be good, maybe not, though more likely they are.

2. Again, offense is half the game. I never said what you're saying I did. I said overall they've shown similar production. Offense + defense.

3. Well, Phoenix has a pretty good looking rookie too, so there's that as well.

4. I take CP3, Curry, Westbrook, Irving, Wall all over him for sure. He's close to Lillard/Conley/Lowry/Teague/Dragic. One of the best defensive PGs in the game and a crazy athlete, doesn't put up eye popping box score stats but is capable of it at times, he's certainly in the mix.

5. They got Chandler? And what targets did Philly whiff on? They were a bit worse off huh?

6. Knight got hurt....though it doesn't seem you paid much actual attention to the Suns, you just enjoy critiquing them.

7. Future picks can still be used as current currency. Hence "why does it matter". Those picks are just as valuable as any other, as you said they can be traded. You can use that asset before 5 years from now.

8. As a fan I'd be miserable watching a team with very little cohesiveness win 25 games a year and prior to that be a treadmill level team the years before.

1.Sounds like you're on the fence there

2.like I said ..I don't really see a discernible difference in offensive production ..as I illustrated with the post ASG stats ..I do however see on in regards to Noel's defensive impact

3.You talking about Booker? I like him ..wouldn't put him in the OK4 KAT tier tho ..


4. Like I said ...I'll take all those guys over Bledsoe (and I like Bledsoe a lot actually)

5. What players did the 6ers target? How were they a bit worse off if their objective was never to chase free agents? I mean where do you get this idea that a team is obligated to chase after the biggest name in free agency year in year out? That's a very strange point that your attempting to make ...the 6ers are developing the young talent not bringing in 33 year old vets to get in the way of that young talent ...more interesting may be the fact the Suns felt the need to go get Chandler in th first place .... That doesn't sound like a team too confident in their young big man if you ask me ...

6.He played terrible while he was there ...am I supposed to just ignore that as its convenient to your argument? He was hurt ok ....annnnddd???

at the most if you wanted to be objective we would say who knows what that back court duo will look like ...but that's not what you've been saying ..you're saying that with that backcourt combo they're playoff contenders ...which is interesting because nothing from them playing together last year would support that claim


7. Sure future picks can be used as current currency ...but saying that those picks are just as valuable as the 6ers top 3 pick in next years draft is fallacious.... You don't know what that pick is or where it will be ...if I'm a prospective trade partner your not convincing me that a pick down the road in 5 years holds the same value as a top 3 pick next season ...that's just ....silly ....furthermore taking the trade option off the table ...how do you consider a pick that's 5 years down the road just as valuable to the CURRENT rebuilding of the Suns team as the 4 first round picks the sixers own next season? Those will be converted into 4 players that will help the sixers get better in the now ... How does a 2021 pick help the Suns get better in the now unless it's used as trade bait?

8.Again ..5 straight years of missing the playoffs and a team that just regressed last season would not only make me feel miserable ... i'd be frightened

1. Yeah, said Minny was close.

2. I do.

3. Yep, Booker. And Philly has exactly zero guards so honestly that's an issue.

4. I wouldn't.

5. The Sixers couldn't target anyone. That's a problem when nobody cares enough to talk to you and seemingly many players don't consider them at all.

6. Knight was injured. I don't know what can even be said.

7. The Sixers got a top 3 pick already? And who knows who the Sixers are drafting? Who knows where guys fall next year in the draft?

8. Why focus on 5 years when if you expand it a few more it kills your argument? Oh, wait...

[bondom34]

How did this thread turn into Phoenix vs Philly? ugh!
I guess we didn't have enough people who hate us already.

I like you guys and what you're doing. I just right now would rather be in the Suns spot, but that's me.

[gaspar]

Plus minus is a pretty misleading stat when you're comparing a bottom 5 record team to a near playoff team in the west

A better stat is how much better/worse the team is when player x is on the floor

I believe the sixers were +5 better with NN on the floor, not sure about alex len

Yeah, don't know how to do on/off by month, but for the season Noel was plus 0.3 net rating, Len plus 0.8.

I wouldn't really focus on doing the work for an on-off on a monthly basis when it is going to be noisy as is.

But for the post all star break period:
Phx was 3.7 PP round trip possession better with Len than without him.
Philly was 3.8 PP round trip possession better with Noel than without him.

And each team had similar margins in general, with Phx getting outscored by 4.9 points per game, while Philly was by 5.8.

Where it gets interesting is if you look at something like the Oratings and Dratings of the players computed for that time.

Len: 93.4 Orating, 102.4 Drating -9.0 difference
Noel: 105.7 Orating, 96.5 Drating + 9.2 difference

Links for those that need em:
http://basketball.realgm.com/nba/teams/Phoenix-Suns/23/stats/2015/Advanced_Stats/Qualified/ediff/All/desc/1/Post-All-Star_Game
http://basketball.realgm.com/nba/teams/Philadelphia-Sixers/22/stats/2015/Advanced_Stats/Qualified/ediff/All/desc/1/Post-All-Star_Game

A really detailed analysis of the two players should probably fit better on teh player comparison board, but it is worth noting that when just lumping this year together and blindly comparing them that the factors of age/experience/learning curve/teammates should be accounted for.

Noel is a full year younger, and didn't get the 400 minute burn last year that Len did. And both players had awful scoring stats in their first 400 minutes in the league. {Noel's could arguably have been made worse by not playing a meaningful game in over a year and a half.}

But taking just this years stats and comparing them eliminates the first awkward adjustment period for Len and doesn't for Noel.

Similarly to above if you look at the splits an focus on that offense of Len's

Len had a 44.5% TS% post all star game (8.5 points per 36 pace adjusted)
Noel had a 52.8% TS% post all star game (14.4 points per 36 pace adjusted)

Around the same time there were serious pg changes for both teams. And both players score off others to similar amounts:
Len: 66.9% assisted baskets
Noel: 67.2% assisted baskets

Well, NBA.com shows totally different numbers than RealGM. With all due respect for RealGM, but I trust NBA.com much more.

Post all-star game:
Len 98.4 OffRtg, 101.0 DefRtg, -2.6 NetRtg (Suns -5.0)
Noel 94.5 OffRtg, 100.5 DefRtg, -6.0 NetRtg (Philly -6.9)

And I'm not sure why are you focusing on the post ASG numbers instead of the bigger sample size (full season), especially considering that Len missed some time during that stretch and played significantly less minutes than Noel.

[JDizzel3000]

They've barely missed the playoffs. The Sixers barely won 20 games.

I'll ask again since you seem to have either missed or avoided my question ...


Contending for what? They haven't made the playoffs in 5 years and finished 5 or 6 games out of the playoff race ...

OK. This is a simple point that honestly can't even get over your head...

The Suns, by virtue of winning, having a young roster, cap space, and assets, can be seen by free agents as somewhere to be considered to go to. The Sixers last major signing was in 2008. The Suns just signed Tyson Chandler and nearly got Aldridge (they didn't get him, but was he giving Philly a meeting I missed?). You add one top free agent to that team and they're likely top 4 in the west. That's a contender. Philly won't be able to do that because no free agent will even look at them until they're respectable which is at least 3 years off. So you're hoping to get a few good young players good enough to get a free agent to go there in 3 years. The Suns are through the first part, on to the second.

Again you are touting failure .....it's a bizarre point ...you continue to say that they almost got LMA ...this isn't horseshoes bro ...almost has 0 value none nada nothing ....yet you continue to run with this point as if it means something ...it doesn't ....how many times do you have to watch them fail to get their target before you realize the tactic isn't working? We all sat here and criticized and laughed at the lakers for swinging and missing the past two seasons on their fa targets yet were supposed to laud the Suns ....stop it ...this is ridiculous


The sixers are not trying to build the free agency so your point of contention here is really irrelevant

[bondom34]

I'll ask again since you seem to have either missed or avoided my question ...


Contending for what? They haven't made the playoffs in 5 years and finished 5 or 6 games out of the playoff race ...

OK. This is a simple point that honestly can't even get over your head...

The Suns, by virtue of winning, having a young roster, cap space, and assets, can be seen by free agents as somewhere to be considered to go to. The Sixers last major signing was in 2008. The Suns just signed Tyson Chandler and nearly got Aldridge (they didn't get him, but was he giving Philly a meeting I missed?). You add one top free agent to that team and they're likely top 4 in the west. That's a contender. Philly won't be able to do that because no free agent will even look at them until they're respectable which is at least 3 years off. So you're hoping to get a few good young players good enough to get a free agent to go there in 3 years. The Suns are through the first part, on to the second.

Again you are touting failure .....it's a bizarre point ...you continue to say that they almost got LMA ...this isn't horseshoes bro ...almost has 0 value none nada nothing ....yet you continue to run with this point as if it means something ...it doesn't ....how many times do you have to watch them fail to get their target before you realize the tactic isn't working? We all sat here and criticized and laughed at the lakers for swinging and missing the past two seasons on their fa targets yet were supposed to laud the Suns ....stop it ...this is ridiculous


The sixers are not trying to build the free agency so your point of contention here is really irrelevant

No they're not. And honestly they've so far built nothing.

[HartfordWhalers]

Yeah, don't know how to do on/off by month, but for the season Noel was plus 0.3 net rating, Len plus 0.8.

I wouldn't really focus on doing the work for an on-off on a monthly basis when it is going to be noisy as is.

But for the post all star break period:
Phx was 3.7 PP round trip possession better with Len than without him.
Philly was 3.8 PP round trip possession better with Noel than without him.

And each team had similar margins in general, with Phx getting outscored by 4.9 points per game, while Philly was by 5.8.

Where it gets interesting is if you look at something like the Oratings and Dratings of the players computed for that time.

Len: 93.4 Orating, 102.4 Drating -9.0 difference
Noel: 105.7 Orating, 96.5 Drating + 9.2 difference

Links for those that need em:
http://basketball.realgm.com/nba/teams/Phoenix-Suns/23/stats/2015/Advanced_Stats/Qualified/ediff/All/desc/1/Post-All-Star_Game
http://basketball.realgm.com/nba/teams/Philadelphia-Sixers/22/stats/2015/Advanced_Stats/Qualified/ediff/All/desc/1/Post-All-Star_Game

A really detailed analysis of the two players should probably fit better on teh player comparison board, but it is worth noting that when just lumping this year together and blindly comparing them that the factors of age/experience/learning curve/teammates should be accounted for.

Noel is a full year younger, and didn't get the 400 minute burn last year that Len did. And both players had awful scoring stats in their first 400 minutes in the league. {Noel's could arguably have been made worse by not playing a meaningful game in over a year and a half.}

But taking just this years stats and comparing them eliminates the first awkward adjustment period for Len and doesn't for Noel.

Similarly to above if you look at the splits an focus on that offense of Len's

Len had a 44.5% TS% post all star game (8.5 points per 36 pace adjusted)
Noel had a 52.8% TS% post all star game (14.4 points per 36 pace adjusted)

Around the same time there were serious pg changes for both teams. And both players score off others to similar amounts:
Len: 66.9% assisted baskets
Noel: 67.2% assisted baskets

Well, NBA.com shows totally different numbers than RealGM. With all due respect for RealGM, but I trust NBA.com much more.

Post all-star game:
Len 98.4 OffRtg, 101.0 DefRtg, -2.6 NetRtg (Suns -5.0)
Noel 94.5 OffRtg, 100.5 DefRtg, -6.0 NetRtg (Philly -6.9)

And I'm not sure why are you focusing on the post ASG numbers instead of the bigger sample size (full season), especially considering that Len missed some time during that stretch and played significantly less minutes than Noel.

I wrote why. It is quoted above.

[Latrell]

I'll ask again since you seem to have either missed or avoided my question ...


Contending for what? They haven't made the playoffs in 5 years and finished 5 or 6 games out of the playoff race ...

OK. This is a simple point that honestly can't even get over your head...

The Suns, by virtue of winning, having a young roster, cap space, and assets, can be seen by free agents as somewhere to be considered to go to. The Sixers last major signing was in 2008. The Suns just signed Tyson Chandler and nearly got Aldridge (they didn't get him, but was he giving Philly a meeting I missed?). You add one top free agent to that team and they're likely top 4 in the west. That's a contender. Philly won't be able to do that because no free agent will even look at them until they're respectable which is at least 3 years off. So you're hoping to get a few good young players good enough to get a free agent to go there in 3 years. The Suns are through the first part, on to the second.

Again you are touting failure .....it's a bizarre point ...you continue to say that they almost got LMA ...this isn't horseshoes bro ...almost has 0 value none nada nothing ....yet you continue to run with this point as if it means something ...it doesn't ....how many times do you have to watch them fail to get their target before you realize the tactic isn't working? We all sat here and criticized and laughed at the lakers for swinging and missing the past two seasons on their fa targets yet were supposed to laud the Suns ....stop it ...this is ridiculous


The sixers are not trying to build the free agency so your point of contention here is really irrelevant

But striking out on Aldridge does have value. Striking out is better than having no at-bat at all. Am I wrong?