Zach Lowe article on Suns and Sixers rebuild going in different directions

[Latrell]

We don't hate you. We hate your GM.

And it's not because fans of other teams are 'threatened' by your tanking. Its because your doing it so blatantly its offensive to the league and game of basketball.

Its within the rules though, so more power to ya I guess.

I still think this is the silliest argument. A lot of teams tank and just because you do it blatantly makes no difference. If it's a wrong it's a wrong.

Honestly it's fine. I'm just saying fans and other GM's/players don't like Hinkie because of the degree he's tanking. I'm not saying its right or wrong. It's within the rules so what he's doing is fine with me. If he thinks this is the best way to build a winner, hats off to him for sticking to his guns. I actually respect that. I'm actually very intrigued on how it will turn out.

[ryst]

We don't hate you. We hate your GM.

And it's not because fans of other teams are 'threatened' by your tanking. Its because your doing it so blatantly its offensive to the league and game of basketball.

Its within the rules though, so more power to ya I guess.

I still think this is the silliest argument. A lot of teams tank and just because you do it blatantly makes no difference. If it's a wrong it's a wrong.

It makes a big difference on how players perceive your team though.

are you a player or an agent? I assume not

so first of all why do you care and second of all you have no idea what players and agents think

I think young players love Hinkie because he is the only GM in the league who give a fair shot to undrafted or D league players, much better in my opinion then to sign over 30 in the back hand of the career players.

signing the likes of Carlos Boozer ,Pablo whats his name from Houston , Javale McGee and others will do nothing for your team
what is so wrong in giving young players a shot?

[Latrell]

I still think this is the silliest argument. A lot of teams tank and just because you do it blatantly makes no difference. If it's a wrong it's a wrong.

It makes a big difference on how players perceive your team though.

are you a player or an agent? I assume not

so first of all why do you care and second of all you have no idea what players and agents think

I think young players love Hinkie because he is the only GM in the league who give a fair shot to undrafted or D league players, much better in my opinion then to sign over 30 in the back hand of the career players.

signing the likes of Carlos Boozer ,Pablo whats his name from Houston , Javale McGee and others will do nothing for your team
what is so wrong in giving young players a shot?

I'm not an agent or a player but how do you know I don't know any personally? Maybe I do.

[ryst]

It makes a big difference on how players perceive your team though.

are you a player or an agent? I assume not

so first of all why do you care and second of all you have no idea what players and agents think

I think young players love Hinkie because he is the only GM in the league who give a fair shot to undrafted or D league players, much better in my opinion then to sign over 30 in the back hand of the career players.

signing the likes of Carlos Boozer ,Pablo whats his name from Houston , Javale McGee and others will do nothing for your team
what is so wrong in giving young players a shot?

I'm not an agent or a player but how do you know I don't know any personally? Maybe I do.

you are correct . I apologize.

do you know any player or Agent who will refuse to play or sign with the Sixers?

[Latrell]

are you a player or an agent? I assume not

so first of all why do you care and second of all you have no idea what players and agents think

I think young players love Hinkie because he is the only GM in the league who give a fair shot to undrafted or D league players, much better in my opinion then to sign over 30 in the back hand of the career players.

signing the likes of Carlos Boozer ,Pablo whats his name from Houston , Javale McGee and others will do nothing for your team
what is so wrong in giving young players a shot?

I'm not an agent or a player but how do you know I don't know any personally? Maybe I do.

you are correct . I apologize.

do you know any player or Agent who will refuse to play or sign with the Sixers?

Yes. And I'll end it right there.

[bondom34]

At this point your talking in circles lol ....the sixers are not building thru free agency because the have clearly chose to develop thru the draft ...brandon knight was trash when he played for the team ...the sixers in all like hood will get a top 3 pick after all if they don't won't that mean they are winning game thus this whole argument would be for nothing anyways? Lol


Why stop at 5 years?? we would only then start talking about the 6ers championships in comparison to the Suns .....uhhhhh ...their uhhhh...Ohhh that's right they haven't done that .... "But but but ....we gotta put a time cap on anything before the year 2002 because my argument would fall apart if we don't"...lol

I'm saying why stop at 5 years ago and count 30 years ago, but nothing between matters. The Sixers haven't won in 30 years. Neither have the Suns. My argument hasn't fallen apart and you're just running around in circles here. Yeah, Philly's building through the draft. Its gonna take forever and by then they likely lose some guys they picked and are alienated by free agents who won't want to go there. Phoenix is a step ahead and hasn't alienated anyone. lol back at ya. And the entire first paragraph you just wrote makes no sense at all, it is literally giberish.

5 years was simply the last time the Suns made the playoffs which is what I would consider a marginally successful season ...that was my original point to another poster before you and others hopped in with this nonsense ..it wasn't some arbitrary number it was used to illustrate that in the same time frame that has elapsed since the Suns were actually in a post season game the sixers have been in the postseason twice ...thus ..trying to make an argument that one team has been resoundingly more "successful" than the other particularly in recent history (which is what the poster I originally responded to insisted) is rather contrived and silly .. In addition to that ...trying to double down on that nonsense by arbitrarily using 2002 as the time capsule mark to evaluate each teams comparative success (which another poster attempted to do) Is equally silly

-At this point your talking in circles lol

-the sixers are not building thru free agency as they have clearly chose to develop thru the draft

-brandon knight was trash when he played for the Suns regardless of your excuses

-The sixers in all likelihood will get a top 3 pick after all if they don't get a high pick wont that mean the team is winning games and this whole argument over them sucking year in and year out would be for nothing anyways? Lol

^^^ No gibberish all facts ....


Smh @ alienating people that you aren't attempting to target .....this point you're attempting literally makes 0 sense


Smh @ the Suns being "a step ahead" because they haven't alienated players ...yet the only result of their actions yielded a 33 year old road block to developing their young talent ....Woah!!! what a catch ....great move by the Suns ...I can see Chandler taking them to the next level no doubt!!



Ohhhh brother

Believe whatever you'd like. You've shown me about how much sense your thought process makes, so I've seen enough. But I'd rather be in the Suns shoes than Philly or any other east team outside Milwaukee, Cleveland, and maybe Atlanta.

[bwgood77]

Well, if you are only going by the championship metric, then Philly would have the 2-0 advantage, though of course those were 30+ years ago. However, the Suns have been much more of a winning franchise overall, having won over 55% of their games, where the Sixers have been about a 500 team.

It still doesn't change the fact that the last time Philly had as good of a record as the Suns did just last year, was in 2002-03.

Again your using an arbitrary time cap to attempt to make an irrelevant point ...your grasping for straws ... Your team has never won anything of consequence ..it's not as successful as the 6ers on any level ....these are facts ..


But then again it has become apparent to me that Suns fans have an affinity for being regular season Warriors ..so ...I've learned something new in this thread ...so thank you for that

#2 - That's a ridiculous question. You want to win regular season games to get into the playoffs. The Suns would have been seeded higher than the Sixers had they had the record they had last year in the east, the last two times the Sixers made the playoffs.

Getting to the playoffs a few years back for the Sixers was great, I suppose, but I don't know if bragging about getting the 7th or 8th seed in the east makes sense, when those were simply worse teams than last year's Suns.

Bragging about making the playoffs >>>>> bragging about not making the playoffs



I mean ..just logically right??

Logically yes, though there has been a pretty big outcry with people saying they should take the top 16 teams. You might have heard about that.

I mentioned earlier in this thread, while the Suns ultimate goal is to win a championship, and I'd love for that to happen, I watch basketball for entertainment purposes. I wouldn't get a ring or anything if they won it all. It would be fun, but that's about it.

The Suns provided me with great entertainment during KJ's time, Nash's time, Kidd's time, and last year. It's been rare they had to go through a long rebuild...actually they never really have had to, at least not since the 70s. Last year was their first year. This year was their second. I love watching the young guys grow and get better. I never would have thought two summers ago, that they would have won 39 games this year. And they did it with a ton of roster turnover and more injuries than usual.

But like I said, for me personally, I want to watch good, fun basketball first and foremost. Championships are extremely rare. Even for teams with stars, they are still hard to come by. I can enjoy watching sports without winning a championship.

Having a good AZ Wildcat team this year that I will enjoy winning matters FAR more to me right now than bragging about winning the National title in 97. The past is the past.

I don't represent all Suns fans either. There are some who think championship or bust. But many just want to be entertained as well and of course hope for a championship but know that the stars pretty much have to align for that to happen.

[JMac1]

But the difference is: Phoenix theoretical has a shot for the title. Their fans hope for the playoffs and when it happens to be next season, it is there. it is unrealistic, but in secret and wet dreams the possibility is there.

i don't know if i would be interested in the next jazz season, hadn't they made that big step after the allstarbreak. now the hope is playoffs and who knows? slim chances, but why not take a shot at a setup for the ages

philly has to hope that Okafor is the real deal. he shows potential, but has no midrange shot and is bad at freethrows. the last franchise changer with this weaknesses was shaq, and i'm not sure that Okafor is that dominant. Noel is "only" a defensive changer, like Gobert, really important, but stranded without proper teammates.
next years draft seems to be not that strong. embiid going to have a hard time coming back. so all philly fans could go through a lot more years of pain. don't forget that they create a losing culture. hard to get over this hump.

because of that, [b]fighting for the playoffs with mini title chances is the better for the fans in my opinio[/b]n.

I agree with you. I don't think it is inconceivable for us to pass Dallas or Portland or New Orleans though. It depends on how the players have grown.

[mtron929]

The problem with the Suns is that while they have good players, they do not have a top 30 player in the NBA. And more importantly, it is becoming quite apparent that none of their current core players will ever become a top 30 player in the NBA. And you just cannot win a title without a top 30 player.

[mtron929]

As for the sixers, it is conceivable that 4-5 years down the line, they do not become a contender. If that happens, it does not necessarily mean that the plan had failed. I actually think that the Sixer's strategy would be judged by whether they can maintain their "stars" once their rookie contract ends. For example, let's say that Noel becomes one of the best defensive players in the league and the Sixers are becoming a formidable team in year 2018-2019. If Noel then signs with another team, then we can conclusively say that the Sixers experiment has failed because they created a bad environment which led to their star's departure.

[Sixerscan]

We don't hate you. We hate your GM.

And it's not because fans of other teams are 'threatened' by your tanking. Its because your doing it so blatantly its offensive to the league and game of basketball.

Its within the rules though, so more power to ya I guess.

I still think this is the silliest argument. A lot of teams tank and just because you do it blatantly makes no difference. If it's a wrong it's a wrong.

Honestly it's fine. I'm just saying fans and other GM's/players don't like Hinkie because of the degree he's tanking. I'm not saying its right or wrong. It's within the rules so what he's doing is fine with me. If he thinks this is the best way to build a winner, hats off to him for sticking to his guns. I actually respect that. I'm actually very intrigued on how it will turn out.

I don't really get this, other than the fact that players/agents want Hinkie to spend more money so that they get the money.

Which is perfectly fine, but let's get off the moral high horses here.

If there are GMs really don't like what Hinkie is doing, well that's just hilarious. What could be better for the other 29 teams than 1 of the teams not competing to sign talent with them? You think Masai wished that the Sixers were bidding for Carroll with him? The other GMs should love what the Sixers are doing if they understand how markets work.

[DreDay]

I wonder why the people listing Aldridge rejecting the Suns a positive do not even consider that Dragic (their best player) wanted out so they had to trade him?

[Sark]

[quote="Sixerscan"]

I don't really get this, other than the fact that players/agents want Hinkie to spend more money so that they get the money.

Which is perfectly fine, but let's get off the moral high horses here.

If there are GMs really don't like what Hinkie is doing, well that's just hilarious. What could be better for the other 29 teams than 1 of the teams not competing to sign talent with them? You think Masai wished that the Sixers were bidding for Carroll with him? The other GMs should love what the Sixers are doing if they understand how markets work.[/quote]

The NBA does not work like normal markets. In a normal market the Sixers would go out of business with their approach.

[HartfordWhalers]

The NBA does not work like normal markets. In a normal market the Sixers would go out of business with their approach.

The team makes money. Why would they go out of business?

[Sark]

The NBA does not work like normal markets. In a normal market the Sixers would go out of business with their approach.

The team makes money. Why would they go out of business?

Is that before of after the TV money they get from the NBA?

[suns91fan]

I wonder why the people listing Aldridge rejecting the Suns a positive do not even consider that Dragic (their best player) wanted out so they had to trade him?

I wouldn't blame the Suns FO for what happened concerning Dragic wanting out. I wouldn't blame Dragic either. Statistically, Suns played their best basketball when they had two out of three PGs at all times on the floor. That would automatically mean that each one of those guards would handle a ball a lot less.

So basically for Dragic, it was, between the two options. Do i want the team to be the best possible, or do i want myself to be a lot more impactful even though it might not be the best for the team? He actually wanted both, but he knew about his upcoming FA, and knew that his statistical drop might impact what money he'll get in the summer. So he chose to demand a trade. As i said i don't blame him, it was understandable, concerning the fact that his next contract would be the biggest one of his career.

From the Suns FO standpoint, they made a mistake when they promised him last summer, that nothing would change, and that it would still be the same as 13/14. Which obviously wasn't the same, but as i said, they only wanted what was best for the team, and not what was best for the player. In the end, they traded him to Miami, which seemed to be his most preferred destination. So they respected his wishes, and in the end both sides got more than they could hope for, concerning the situation they were in.

[HartfordWhalers]

The NBA does not work like normal markets. In a normal market the Sixers would go out of business with their approach.

The team makes money. Why would they go out of business?

Is that before of after the TV money they get from the NBA?

The national money that everyone in the league gets an equal amount of? Or the local money that is shared unequally?

Divorcing an NBA team from the national contract doesn't make sense, especially as its a multi-year contract which includes years that teams are good and years that they are bad. And the local revenue has been discussed, with the Sixers getting none of any other teams deals.

Altogether the team at last estimate made more than over half the league.

[Sixerscan]

I don't really get this, other than the fact that players/agents want Hinkie to spend more money so that they get the money.

Which is perfectly fine, but let's get off the moral high horses here.

If there are GMs really don't like what Hinkie is doing, well that's just hilarious. What could be better for the other 29 teams than 1 of the teams not competing to sign talent with them? You think Masai wished that the Sixers were bidding for Carroll with him? The other GMs should love what the Sixers are doing if they understand how markets work.

The NBA does not work like normal markets. In a normal market the Sixers would go out of business with their approach.

Why does another team's GM care about our franchise's business model?

Raptors offered Carroll $15 million a year. Sixers offer him $17 million a year. Raptors have to counter by offering $17 million a year.

How is that good for the Raptors? Does Masai want someone to outbid him so he can overpay Carroll?

[Sark]

The team makes money. Why would they go out of business?

Is that before of after the TV money they get from the NBA?

The national money that everyone in the league gets an equal amount of? Or the local money that is shared unequally?

Divorcing an NBA team from the national contract doesn't make sense, especially as its a multi-year contract which includes years that teams are good and years that they are bad. And the local revenue has been discussed, with the Sixers getting none of any other teams deals.

Altogether the team at last estimate made more than over half the league.

Divorcing it from the shared money makes perfect sense, because the shared money is what makes it not act like a normal market.

Normal market forces don't apply at all with sports leagues. If a team does well, they are not allowed to expand. Likewise if a team loses money for 10 years, they are not allowed to shut down and go out of business. My point was to not compare NBA teams with any free market principles.

[Sixerscan]

Is that before of after the TV money they get from the NBA?

The national money that everyone in the league gets an equal amount of? Or the local money that is shared unequally?

Divorcing an NBA team from the national contract doesn't make sense, especially as its a multi-year contract which includes years that teams are good and years that they are bad. And the local revenue has been discussed, with the Sixers getting none of any other teams deals.

Altogether the team at last estimate made more than over half the league.

Divorcing it from the shared money makes perfect sense, because the shared money is what makes it not act like a normal market.

Normal market forces don't apply at all with sports leagues. If a team does well, they are not allowed to expand. Likewise if a team loses money for 10 years, they are not allowed to shut down and go out of business. My point was to not compare NBA teams with any free market principles.

This argument has nothing to do with my post btw

You're talking about business models of the franchises themselves and I am talking about how GMs interact with each other in free agency.