Zach Lowe article on Suns and Sixers rebuild going in different directions

[saintEscaton]

btw, that gif with the treadmill was more about Embiid, who could become a super stud, but it encapulates the franchise of the sixers.

Injury prone bigs busting their knees during rehab. Sounds about right. Jk . I'm wishing a speedy recovery for Embiid as I've been anxious to see him make his debut and justify the hype

[Revived]

Which one has a higher success rate to land a superstar? A small market team stealing a superstar via FA or a top 3 pick?

Suns came close to landing LMA like 2 weeks ago...

[76ciology]

Which one has a higher success rate to land a superstar? A small market team stealing a superstar via FA or a top 3 pick?

Suns came close to landing LMA like 2 weeks ago...

Yup, but did they land him?

You look at the Sixers right now, they have Jah, Biid and projected top 5 picks next year as candidates (please don't assume I'm thinking to be star/superstar. The probability for success is much higher.

[76ciology]

http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/sixers/20150715_Here_s_why_Hinkie_s_plan_for_76ers_could_work.html

It's embarrassing, even unethical, for a proud NBA franchise to tank.

The results over Hinkie's first two seasons as GM have been ugly: 37 victories, 127 losses, a conga line of marginal NBA players dancing into and out of the Wells Fargo Center. In truth, though, those results haven't been much uglier than the Sixers' recent history. Over the 10 years before Hinkie's arrival, the Sixers had two winning seasons and won one playoff series. From 1999 through 2003 - the five seasons that comprise the apex of the Allen Iverson era - the Sixers advanced beyond the second round just once, reaching the 2001 Finals and getting smashed by the Lakers. Before that stretch, they missed the playoffs for seven consecutive years, averaging 26 wins a season, and that was when they were trying to win.

As for the ethics, I find it difficult to criticize the Sixers for tanking when the NBA's system to acquire new talent - an amateur draft in which the worst teams have the greatest likelihood of getting the best players, who in turn can have outsized impacts on teams' fortunes - incentivizes tanking.

Come on. You don't have to tank to build a terrific NBA team.

No, but you have to be bad, at least for a little while, and even then you have to have great timing and/or luck. Since 1983, the last time the Sixers won the NBA title, just nine teams have won the league's 32 championships. The NBA has been top-heavy for a long time, because once a team acquires a transcendent player, it tends to stay great while that player is there. You have to get those kinds of athletes. Sometimes you stumble into them.

OK, so why can't you put a competitive team on the floor and try stumbling?

You could. The Sixers did for years, and it got them trapped in the NBA's netherworld: rarely bad enough to secure a high lottery pick, never good enough to challenge for a championship. A team might build itself into a contender by mining mid-to-late first-round picks and second-round picks, but the odds of that approach working are much slimmer compared to the fortuitousness of obtaining a top-five pick and having the draftee develop into a superstar. Hinkie has tried to maximize those odds, both by stripping the Sixers to bones and by hoarding draft picks. Remember: They will likely have four in next year's first round.

Fine, but you still have to hit on those picks.

Agreed, and it seems Hinkie has missed on two big ones so far. Drafting Embiid was a calculated risk, a swing for the fences, and if Embiid never becomes the franchise cornerstone the Sixers hoped he would be, Hinkie will have made the wrong decision for the right reasons. The other mistake was Michael Carter-Williams, and by trading Carter-Williams to Milwaukee, Hinkie effectively admitted that he erred in drafting him.

So you acknowledge the plan might not work?

Of course. But that's not the point. No rebuilding plan is assured of working. The point is that Hinkie's plan could work, in a big way, and even if it doesn't, the Sixers can't be worse off than they were before he showed up. We'll just have to see how everything turns out.

[76ciology]

There are two ways to build a team, non-superstar type build (LB's Pistons) or a team with a superstar. Higher probability is a team with a superstar.

Now what's the highest success rate to get a superstar for a non-LA/NY team?

Stealing a superstar thru FA, trade mediocre assets for a superstar (quantity for quality), land a superstar with a non top 5 pick or draft a superstar with a top 5 pick.

For me, Sixers choose landing a superstar with a top 5 pick route. But then since most rebuilding program takes 3 years atleast, then they make sure they get as many and as high of picks as possible to get the most chances in acquiring a superstar at the most limited time. Worst case? Trade those valuable non-superstar assets and cap space for a superstar.

Losing culture? http://nba.derekbodner.com/2015/04/21/the-sixers-won-their-biggest-game-of-the-year-the-culture-war/

It was one criticism of the Sam Hinkie plan that sounded scary. That sounded legitimate.
How could the Sixers develop good habits while playing losing basketball? How could Brett Brown possibly keep the locker room together while losing game after game after game?
With the exception of some minor bickering between since-departed Michael Carter-Williams and Nerlens Noel over ball movement, the Sixers locker room has been extremely tight, and as close as any 18 win team you’ll find.
“The attitude was great, the guys were great, guys got along. It was a great locker room,” Luc Mbah a Moute, one of the two real veterans on the roster, said after the final game of the season. “I love it here. I like what they’re doing in trying to develop guys, and I see the pieces that they’re putting together.
‘It was way easier. I thought it would be really hard,” Luc Mbah a Moute said about his expectations after being traded to the Sixers. “I definitely think that’s something I want to be a part of.”
The answer was something you wouldn’t expect from Mbah a Moute, who will turn 29 by the start of next season and is firmly in his physical prime.
But, as the season wore on it was a theme that became increasingly obvious, especially among the two veterans that the Sixers had on their roster.
“I’ve been on bad teams, losing teams, where guys are just counting down the days to go home,” Jason Richardson said. “Nobody was coming in and talking about summer vacation [here]
“I’ve been on bad teams, losing teams, where guys are just counting down the days to go home,” Jason Richardson said. “Nobody was coming in and talking about summer vacation [here]. That’s a good testament to the type of guys that are in this locker room and how much they care about this organization.
“It was a great experience for me. I really like being around these guys. The guys like to be around each other,” Richardson said.
The first step in being able to maintain a positive culture came from Sam Hinkie. It was one benefit of the design of the team and the types of personalities he pursued.
There was much talk about the necessity of veteran presence on the team, and certainly experience from a peer is a good teaching tool for young players looking to develop in their craft. But having a roster comprised entirely of people looking to prove themselves helped promote consistent effort, even in the face of losing.
When you look at the 9 players who logged the most minutes for the Sixers this season, 4 of them were rookies with no NBA experience entering the season. Others, such as Henry Sims and Hollis Thompson, may have played last season, but they still had plenty to prove. Robert Covington, who played the second most minutes on the Sixers this season, was in the D-League when the season started.
Even the old guys on the roster, Jason Richardson and Luc Mbah a Moute, had plenty to prove.
Richardson, who was working his way back from 2 ankle injuries and a fracture in his foot, had to prove he was still an NBA player.
“The foot fracture, that was the one that I was like “I’m done. There’s no way [I’m coming back]’,” Richardson told me after the season. “I worked my butt off, I did everything I was supposed to do.
“It was like a blessing in disguise, though, because my knee really wasn’t as strong as it [needed to be],” Richardson concluded.
Luc Mbah a Moute, more known for his defensive presence, was given a green light on the offensive end that he had never previously enjoyed in his career, and with that green light came a desire to prove that he could extend his game out to the three point line with consistency.
“Any time you have a coach that believes in you, you want to give 150%,” Mbah a Moute said, explaining the team’s consistent effort. “That’s what coach [Brown] does. He believes in his players. He believes in developing them and allowing them to play to their full potential.”
While Sam Hinkie’s controversial roster construction helped keep the Sixers effort level high, it’s head coach Brett Brown who deserves the lions share of the credit.
“It’s more than just basketball,” Luc Mbah a Moute said about Brown as a coach. “We’re still human beings. We still have to live, we’re not just basketball players. I think he does more than just draw X’s and O’s.
“It’s probably one of the best experiences I’ve had with a coach,” Mbah a Moute said.
That effort became one of the calling cards for a club consistently on the wrong end of a large talent discrepancy.
The Sixers had the best defensive rating in the league (98.1) in the 4th quarter. They forced the 2nd most 4th quarter turnovers in the league, averaging 4.2 turnovers forced per 4th quarter, behind only Dallas’ 4.4. Both are signs that the Sixers effort level remained high*.
“I never had that from a coach in this league, to make me feel comfortable when I mess up.”
“The fact that he talks to me is just a big difference right there,” Thomas Robinson, the former 5th overall draft pick turned NBA vagabond, said when asked how Brown was different. “I never had that from a coach in this league, to make me feel comfortable when I mess up.”
It’s that attention, the attention to detail, the attention to the needs of his young players, that may separate Brown from the crowd. Hired in large part as a result of his pedigree as a player development coach with San Antonio, Brown’s ability to engage with his young squad and get them focused on behavior, on repeated behaviors that turn into habits, may be his calling card.
Beyond effort, Brown also scored well on a personal level.
“Everybody feeds off of him a little bit. He’s not a yeller, he’s more like a teacher,” Luc Mbah a Moute said. “He works for guys, he develops guys, and he’s patient. He’s been great this year.”

[BudTugly]

Michael Jordan is the worst thing that ever happened to basketball. The Sixers and their childish "plan" is just another symptom of the sickness that has pervaded the sport since his Airness.

[Ponchos]

Michael Jordan is the worst thing that ever happened to basketball. The Sixers and their childish "plan" is just another symptom of the sickness that has pervaded the sport since his Airness.

Uhhhh...

[loserX]

There are two ways to build a team, non-superstar type build (LB's Pistons) or a team with a superstar. Higher probability is a team with a superstar.

Now what's the highest success rate to get a superstar for a non-LA/NY team?

Stealing a superstar thru FA, trade mediocre assets for a superstar (quantity for quality), land a superstar with a non top 5 pick or draft a superstar with a top 5 pick.

For me, Sixers choose landing a superstar with a top 5 pick route. But then since most rebuilding program takes 3 years atleast, then they make sure they get as many and as high of picks as possible to get the most chances in acquiring a superstar at the most limited time.

I'm generally with you up to this point.

Worst case? Trade those valuable non-superstar assets and cap space for a superstar.

Lost me here. No, the "worst case" scenario is *not* that you end up with a superstar anyway. There are actually quite a few case scenarios worse than that.

I imagine the worst case scenario is that none of those assets turn out to be worth much and/or no team is willing to trade you a superstar (ask Ainge how that's going), and you end up treading water again, possibly at a lower level than you were going in.

[Ponchos]

There are two ways to build a team, non-superstar type build (LB's Pistons) or a team with a superstar. Higher probability is a team with a superstar.

Now what's the highest success rate to get a superstar for a non-LA/NY team?

Stealing a superstar thru FA, trade mediocre assets for a superstar (quantity for quality), land a superstar with a non top 5 pick or draft a superstar with a top 5 pick.

For me, Sixers choose landing a superstar with a top 5 pick route. But then since most rebuilding program takes 3 years atleast, then they make sure they get as many and as high of picks as possible to get the most chances in acquiring a superstar at the most limited time.

I'm generally with you up to this point.

Worst case? Trade those valuable non-superstar assets and cap space for a superstar.

Lost me here. No, the "worst case" scenario is *not* that you end up with a superstar anyway. There are actually quite a few case scenarios worse than that.

I imagine the worst case scenario is that none of those assets turn out to be worth much and/or no team is willing to trade you a superstar (ask Ainge how that's going), and you end up treading water again, possibly at a lower level than you were going in.

Last time Ainge had a top-5 pick he turned it into Ray Allen. Currently he's trying to move 15-30 picks for real players, and it isn't working out.

But I agree with you in principle, however it is much easier to move top-5 picks for established stars.

[76ciology]

Worst case? Trade those valuable non-superstar assets and cap space for a superstar.

Lost me here. No, the "worst case" scenario is *not* that you end up with a superstar anyway. There are actually quite a few case scenarios worse than that.

I imagine the worst case scenario is that none of those assets turn out to be worth much and/or no team is willing to trade you a superstar (ask Ainge how that's going), and you end up treading water again, possibly at a lower level than you were going in.

My thinking is more in line of the KG, Harden or KLove deals.

[loserX]

Worst case? Trade those valuable non-superstar assets and cap space for a superstar.

Lost me here. No, the "worst case" scenario is *not* that you end up with a superstar anyway. There are actually quite a few case scenarios worse than that.

I imagine the worst case scenario is that none of those assets turn out to be worth much and/or no team is willing to trade you a superstar (ask Ainge how that's going), and you end up treading water again, possibly at a lower level than you were going in.

My thinking is more in line of the KG, Harden or KLove deals.

Sure, but those were the confluence of some extenuating circumstances and to an extent, luck. It certainly wasn't the "worst case" scenario for those teams to land those players. That's all I was trying to say. There is no plan where the "worst case" scenario is that you get a superstar anyway.

EDIT -- if I may, I think maybe what you meant to say was "Plan B". Which is fine, but is very different from a worst case scenario!

[BudTugly]

Michael Jordan is the worst thing that ever happened to basketball. The Sixers and their childish "plan" is just another symptom of the sickness that has pervaded the sport since his Airness.

Uhhhh...

Uhwhat? League has been dominated with the philosophy of acquiring generational talent based upon this ridiculous assumption that said talent will just appear right when you tank. Like San Antonio!

Trouble is, almost never do these prospects turn into Jordan. Or Duncan.

Those 2 guys carried their franchises and allowed said franchises to achieve what they did. So Okay, tank like a boss so you can get Duncan or Jordan.

Uhh. Sorry, but there just isn't one this year. Maybe tank another year? Yes? Awesome!


No. The reality is teams have to commit to long term plans well before game changing players show up as rookies.

NO will be lucky if they actually retain AD. They better get something going over there. Otherwise he's gone to win.

And that's the blueprint for every NBA franchise. Gl boys. Real organizational competence is better than multiple high picks.

[ryst]

Michael Jordan is the worst thing that ever happened to basketball. The Sixers and their childish "plan" is just another symptom of the sickness that has pervaded the sport since his Airness.

Uhhhh...

Uhwhat? League has been dominated with the philosophy of acquiring generational talent based upon this ridiculous assumption that said talent will just appear right when you tank. Like San Antonio!

Trouble is, almost never do these prospects turn into Jordan. Or Duncan.

Those 2 guys carried their franchises and allowed said franchises to achieve what they did. So Okay, tank like a boss so you can get Duncan or Jordan.

Uhh. Sorry, but there just isn't one this year. Maybe tank another year? Yes? Awesome!


No. The reality is teams have to commit to long term plans well before game changing players show up as rookies.

NO will be lucky if they actually retain AD. They better get something going over there. Otherwise he's gone to win.

And that's the blueprint for every NBA franchise. Gl boys. Real organizational competence is better than multiple high picks.

they just retained AD for 5 more years

[Ponchos]

Michael Jordan is the worst thing that ever happened to basketball. The Sixers and their childish "plan" is just another symptom of the sickness that has pervaded the sport since his Airness.

Uhhhh...

Uhwhat? League has been dominated with the philosophy of acquiring generational talent based upon this ridiculous assumption that said talent will just appear right when you tank. Like San Antonio!

Trouble is, almost never do these prospects turn into Jordan. Or Duncan.

Those 2 guys carried their franchises and allowed said franchises to achieve what they did. So Okay, tank like a boss so you can get Duncan or Jordan.

Uhh. Sorry, but there just isn't one this year. Maybe tank another year? Yes? Awesome!


No. The reality is teams have to commit to long term plans well before game changing players show up as rookies.

NO will be lucky if they actually retain AD. They better get something going over there. Otherwise he's gone to win.

And that's the blueprint for every NBA franchise. Gl boys. Real organizational competence is better than multiple high picks.

I imagine the teams you think have real organizational competence are the ones that landed Jordan, Duncan, Kobe, LeBron, Wade.. etc.

[asudevil]

the problem with the sixers:

You need to tank at the right time, and draft a star. then build around that star through FA. The sixers have gone the route of tanking, and drafting a start, but they havent gone the next step and build around them through FA. I'm 100% sure that the Sixers could have built a playoff contender this offseason, but have refused to take the next step and use cap space to field a team that wants to win. What does that do to the youth they've accumulated? It tells them that winning is secondary to making money. THAT SUCKS.

the problem with the suns:

You can build a solid core around secondary players, without the promise of taking it to the next step. Without that star stud you draft, their is always promise of contending...but without that star player you solidify your fan base in the hope of something special without having to promise it. the suns have one of the most promising secondary youth cores, but without a star player, the fan base can hope for something special, but its not expected. THAT SUCKS.

the rebuild needs to be a combination of the two. Build promising youth through the draft, and add these secondary talents.

The sixers have done the first part, without the second.....the suns have done the second without the first.

[BullyKing]

I'm 100% sure that the Sixers could have built a playoff contender this offseason,

Go on... But remember, its not just building a playoff contender that's the point so don't waste our time with signing Rondo, trading for Jeff Green type stuff.

[perezident]

You got to love the irony of a Kings fan talking about free agents not wanting to play in Philly.

Rondo was a free agent....an All star tripple double machine

But the real irony is Philly fans bashing the Kings and their already broken glass house can't take any more stones

Sorry, didn't realize we were pretending this was 2010. Congrats on beating out CSKA Moscow for Rondo's services.

I know it hurts seeing the Kings clawing back into relevance.

Hope you don't eat crow when Rondo plays like the Rondo you and countless fans wish not to see....

[wickedwrister]

Rondo was a free agent....an All star tripple double machine

But the real irony is Philly fans bashing the Kings and their already broken glass house can't take any more stones

Sorry, didn't realize we were pretending this was 2010. Congrats on beating out CSKA Moscow for Rondo's services.

I know it hurts seeing the Kings clawing back into relevance.

Hope you don't eat crow when Rondo plays like the Rondo you and countless fans wish not to see....

Hey guys Vivek is on Realgm!!!!!!!

[perezident]

Sorry, didn't realize we were pretending this was 2010. Congrats on beating out CSKA Moscow for Rondo's services.

I know it hurts seeing the Kings clawing back into relevance.

Hope you don't eat crow when Rondo plays like the Rondo you and countless fans wish not to see....

Hey guys Vivek is on Realgm!!!!!!!

How did you know Ty? You catch wifi in the slammer?

[BudTugly]

I imagine the teams you think have real organizational competence are the ones that landed Jordan, Duncan, Kobe, LeBron, Wade.. etc.

Heat yes Cavs no. The Bulls were special in that they landed a generational coach right after catching the best player ever. But their ownership has been questionable forever which is why they never recovered from Jordan retiring. Spurs have done a ton right besides one year of getting lucky.

My own Jazz had massive problems when the owner was sick or incompetent. Once Greg promoted KOC and hired Lindsay effectively taking himself out of operations the Jazz started moving in a sane direction.

It's ridiculous to believe that winning the lottery is better than having excellent management. Absolutely stupid.