Are the Suns a treadmill team?

[Frank Lee]

Having trouble acknowledging the perpetual rebuild ?

McDuh is still searching for a 'core'.

I'd bet we've had 25 different Suns come in the revolving locker room door in the McDuh era. ****, we couldn't even keep the FAs he hand selected last yr. Too much tinkering can lead to tankering. BTW, my comments are based on observations, not some tea-leafing told ya sos.

[bwgood77]

McDuh cleaned house beginning 13-14.
cleaned house beginning of / during 14-15
and cleaned house for this yr

he's a regular gd janitor.

Frank, it's really starting to sound like you want to live in a perfect world where nothing can go wrong, that or you'd just rather hold on to the problems we've had in the past. Either way, you're more delusional than any "starry eyed dreamer"

Hey, he might be a bit older and not realize it might take more than one offseason to turn over the roster. I think we have to attempt to be patient with the impatient old soul.

[MrMiyagi]

Having trouble acknowledging the perpetual rebuild ?

McDuh is still searching for a 'core'.

I'd bet we've had 25 different Suns come in the revolving locker room door in the McDuh era. ****, we couldn't even keep the FAs he hand selected last yr. Too much tinkering can lead to tankering. BTW, my comments are based on observations, not some tea-leafing told ya sos.

We've only ever gotten rid of 1 of our 'core' and that was Dragic, and we replaced him with Knight. Bled/Knight/Kieff/Len/Archie/TJ/Booker are our core. That is what is being considered when we make additions/subtractions. I thought you would've picked that up with your attentive observations.

[lilfishi22]

I'd consider it a rebuild if we had moved Bledsoe, Len or Warren. I believe these guys are our core going forward and seeing as we have kept these guys while adding veteran leadership, toughness, defense and rebounding, I don't see this as a rebuild at all. I don't see how it could be seen in anyway as a rebuild. Consider this, if we had landed LMA, there would be zero talk of us being a treadmill team. But the fact that we did miss out on him even though we were within a hair width of signing him, shows we don't have a treadmill mindset.

I loved that we moved Mook (although not at the expense of who it costs to jettison him, Granger/Bullock), I've come around on the Chandler signing and I loved the Weems/Telly signing. I think we're back to moving forward in the right direction.

[Revived]

McDuh cleaned house beginning 13-14.
cleaned house beginning of / during 14-15
and cleaned house for this yr

he's a regular gd janitor.

Frank, it's really starting to sound like you want to live in a perfect world where nothing can go wrong, that or you'd just rather hold on to the problems we've had in the past. Either way, you're more delusional than any "starry eyed dreamer"

Dude gtfo. So he's more "delusional" than you because he disagrees with you that everything is fine with this team? I'm pretty sure that if Suns miss playoffs and keep picking at #13 for the next 5 years, you'll still be here talking about the glamorous position that the Suns are in. Heck, probably even 10 years at that. "Problems we had in the past", lmao yea you mean the problems that we had like idk 6 months ago? Yea that's sooooooooo far in the past.

You are more than welcome to have homeristic views on whatever this team is doing and call it being "optimistic" rather than calling an ace what it is...an ace and you can continue to do your typing green font posts which is the only rebuttal you ever bring but no buddy, no ones delusional because they don't share your viewpoint. You don't have the perfect viewpoint and if I had to address why, it would take me 3-4 pages worth of posts and it's not worth my time. And it's not like Frank is the only one thinking otherwise either....21 of the 43 people that voted agree with him which means nearly 50% share his "delusional" poor of view.

So stick to this when you want to insult people since it's less noticeable because I know you will never be convinced on why many in this "delusional" world doesn't share your viewpoint for this team.

[MrMiyagi]

McDuh cleaned house beginning 13-14.
cleaned house beginning of / during 14-15
and cleaned house for this yr

he's a regular gd janitor.

Frank, it's really starting to sound like you want to live in a perfect world where nothing can go wrong, that or you'd just rather hold on to the problems we've had in the past. Either way, you're more delusional than any "starry eyed dreamer"

Dude gtfo. So he's more "delusional" than you because he disagrees with you that everything is fine with this team? I'm pretty sure that if Suns miss playoffs and keep picking at #13 for the next 5 years, you'll still be here talking about the glamorous position that the Suns are in. Heck, probably even 10 years at that. "Problems we had in the past", lmao yea you mean the problems that we had like idk 6 months ago? Yea that's sooooooooo far in the past.

You are more than welcome to have homeristic views on whatever this team is doing and call it being "optimistic" rather than calling an ace what it is...an ace and you can continue to do your typing green font posts which is the only rebuttal you ever bring but no buddy, no ones delusional because they don't share your viewpoint. You don't have the perfect viewpoint and if I had to address why, it would take me 3-4 pages worth of posts and it's not worth my time. And it's not like Frank is the only one thinking otherwise either....21 of the 43 people that voted agree with him which means nearly 50% share his "delusional" poor of view.

So stick to this when you want to insult people since it's less noticeable because I know you will never be convinced on why many in this "delusional" world doesn't share your viewpoint for this team.

Frank is simultaneously complaining about last season's roster not being good enough and criticizing this season's roster moves as being too much roster overturn. It is two contradictory point of view to have. It's like having a car with worn out tires, replacing the tires, and then complaining that the you have four new tires. That to me is delusional.

[suns91fan]

I bet more than half of those 21 (currently) votes were votes from 76ers fans who just want to prove how their way is the right way. From this board, there are 6-7 loudest guys who share their point of view and that's about it. No need to name them, every member of this board who spent more than a few days here, can easily notice their constant bashing just about everything. I follow a few other Suns boards and this board here is the harshest one by far. Having said that, i firmly believe majority of Suns fans around the world are aware that GM job in real life isn't the same as the one in video games.

[lilfishi22]

Dude gtfo. So he's more "delusional" than you because he disagrees with you that everything is fine with this team? I'm pretty sure that if Suns miss playoffs and keep picking at #13 for the next 5 years, you'll still be here talking about the glamorous position that the Suns are in. Heck, probably even 10 years at that. "Problems we had in the past", lmao yea you mean the problems that we had like idk 6 months ago? Yea that's sooooooooo far in the past.

You are more than welcome to have homeristic views on whatever this team is doing and call it being "optimistic" rather than calling an ace what it is...an ace and you can continue to do your typing green font posts which is the only rebuttal you ever bring but no buddy, no ones delusional because they don't share your viewpoint. You don't have the perfect viewpoint and if I had to address why, it would take me 3-4 pages worth of posts and it's not worth my time. And it's not like Frank is the only one thinking otherwise either....21 of the 43 people that voted agree with him which means nearly 50% share his "delusional" poor of view.

So stick to this when you want to insult people since it's less noticeable because I know you will never be convinced on why many in this "delusional" world doesn't share your viewpoint for this team.

No need for that

People get too fixated on the range we are picking while simultaneously reducing a whole season of development on where we pick in the draft to determine how we are going. That's completely nonsensical to me. In our first season in the full rebuild, we won a paltry 25 games and we drafted Alex Len. After winning 48 games in the 2nd year of our rebuild, we drafted TJ Warren who I think the vast majority of the fanbase love. This past season we saw a dip in our win column as a result of trades and chemistry issues and we took Devin Booker.

These players are not superstars in the making but they are part of our rebuild and are helping the team. Stop reducing our entire season on draft position and instead look at the players we've drafted that can help this team. No, not everything is fine with this team but it is a process. To think we can turn this boat around in one or two seasons is the delusional part.

[Frank Lee]

Too many here have 'anointed' a core....that has yet to play together and contains youngsters who have not contributed enough to even know how long they will be in the league. Len was our 'core' last yr... and he is a second stringer this yr. Knight was barely here... and who knows the outcome of KeifMo and Tucker. Personally, I'd be surprised if they remain. Odds are against Booker and Goodwin

from McDuh's first yr, we have Bled, Goodwin, Len, Keif, and Tucker
From his second yr, we added Warren
Hardly a foundation to build upon.

Sure, now we have added Chandler, Weems, Telet, Booker, and who knows who else.... but its the same ol same ol presumptions on the outlook for the up-comer. You can probably go back and find similar wishfuls when we added Tolliver, IT, CusMo etc.

Not bashing here, this is pretty much fact. As far as I am concerned, we are starting over. McDuh and co F-d it up last yr and I'm one who isn't buying their spin. From here out, they should get judged on results. 2014-15 was a mess, and the mustard is on McDuh's chin.

[Revived]

Dude gtfo. So he's more "delusional" than you because he disagrees with you that everything is fine with this team? I'm pretty sure that if Suns miss playoffs and keep picking at #13 for the next 5 years, you'll still be here talking about the glamorous position that the Suns are in. Heck, probably even 10 years at that. "Problems we had in the past", lmao yea you mean the problems that we had like idk 6 months ago? Yea that's sooooooooo far in the past.

You are more than welcome to have homeristic views on whatever this team is doing and call it being "optimistic" rather than calling an ace what it is...an ace and you can continue to do your typing green font posts which is the only rebuttal you ever bring but no buddy, no ones delusional because they don't share your viewpoint. You don't have the perfect viewpoint and if I had to address why, it would take me 3-4 pages worth of posts and it's not worth my time. And it's not like Frank is the only one thinking otherwise either....21 of the 43 people that voted agree with him which means nearly 50% share his "delusional" poor of view.

So stick to this when you want to insult people since it's less noticeable because I know you will never be convinced on why many in this "delusional" world doesn't share your viewpoint for this team.

No need for that

People get too fixated on the range we are picking while simultaneously reducing a whole season of development on where we pick in the draft to determine how we are going. That's completely nonsensical to me. In our first season in the full rebuild, we won a paltry 25 games and we drafted Alex Len. After winning 48 games in the 2nd year of our rebuild, we drafted TJ Warren who I think the vast majority of the fanbase love. This past season we saw a dip in our win column as a result of trades and chemistry issues and we took Devin Booker.

These players are not superstars in the making but they are part of our rebuild and are helping the team. Stop reducing our entire season on draft position and instead look at the players we've drafted that can help this team. No, not everything is fine with this team but it is a process. To think we can turn this boat around in one or two seasons is the delusional part.

So you don't have a problem with a poster calling another poster delusional since it's a "optimistic/homer" poster that's doing it but if someone responds throwing a less insulting remark then it's a ? K, got it.

And if your point is that Warren is a better prospect than Len, fine it's a valid point to make. But if your point is to use that and say "See we might get prospects at #14 than #5" then it's a poor one.

Why? Because the draft that Len was drafted in may end up being the worst draft major sports in America. Not even just the NBA, but overall in sports, that will likely end up as the worst draft ever.

So that's an exception. If we had a top 5 pick in the draft which followed, we would all be doing cart wheels around here. Imagine a top 2 pick and getting Parker or Wiggins. Heck even Smart, Exum, Randle are all players with insanely high ceilings and the GMs for those teams with these players wouldn't trade them to us straight up if we offered Len or Warren for them. Not a knock on Len or Warren as much to show how highly regarded those players are.

[lilfishi22]

So you don't have a problem with a poster calling another poster delusional since it's a "optimistic/homer" poster that's doing it but if someone responds throwing a less insulting remark then it's a ? K, got it.

What does telling someone to get the f**k out contribute to anything? The delusional part is with regards to expecting a turnaround with no hiccups in a span of 1-2 seasons during a rebuild.

And if your point is that Warren is a better prospect than Len, fine it's a valid point to make. But if your point is to use that and say "See we might get prospects at #14 than #5" then it's a poor one.

Why? Because the draft that Len was drafted in may end up being the worst draft major sports in America. Not even just the NBA, but overall in sports, that will likely end up as the worst draft ever.

That wasn't my point at all. My point is that, we've drafted players who most of the fanbase think can help our team in the future, regardless of where they were drafted. We drafted Len at #5 who I think can be a very good C for us in the future and similarly we drafted a TJ at #14, who I also think is going to be a baller for us. You see, I couldn't care less where they were drafted, I care about who we used our draft picks on. I like the Len pick, I like the Warren pick and I'm coming around on the Booker pick. My point, is, whether it's a good draft or not, if you pick a guy that can help you, then you've done well. Not every draft is going to have Lebron's, Wiggins and Davis' and we're certainly not going to time when we're going to suck just to get in on the year blue-chip prospects hit the draft.

So rather than focusing on the range we're picking, I'm more focused on who we're drafting and if they can help improve the team now or in the future.

[Sunsdeuce]

Too many here have 'anointed' a core....that has yet to play together and contains youngsters who have not contributed enough to even know how long they will be in the league. Len was our 'core' last yr... and he is a second stringer this yr. Knight was barely here... and who knows the outcome of KeifMo and Tucker. Personally, I'd be surprised if they remain. Odds are against Booker and Goodwin

from McDuh's first yr, we have Bled, Goodwin, Len, Keif, and Tucker
From his second yr, we added Warren
Hardly a foundation to build upon.

Sure, now we have added Chandler, Weems, Telet, Booker, and who knows who else.... but its the same ol same ol presumptions on the outlook for the up-comer. You can probably go back and find similar wishfuls when we added Tolliver, IT, CusMo etc.

Not bashing here, this is pretty much fact. As far as I am concerned, we are starting over. McDuh and co F-d it up last yr and I'm one who isn't buying their spin. From here out, they should get judged on results. 2014-15 was a mess, and the mustard is on McDuh's chin.

Have to agree. There is pretty much no core. A core is in reference to "players to build around." Suns do not have a core. Suns have some very nice role players.

Bledsoe has proven that he can play 1 out of every 10 games. Everyone brings up the OKc game. You know why this game gets brought up because that's the only memorable game he had. That's what role players do. They have a memorable game here and there. Knight (as much as I think he can contribute) has done nothing. Tucker is on his way out. Len might qualify as a core player but all he has proven is that he is a fragile player and I'm a Len fan. Chandler is not a core player (definitely not at 33 years old).

Booker has shown some great play in the summer league. But this is the same league Seth Curry just won the MVP. Seth, the same guy who couldn't even earn a contract last year with the Suns. The summer league is also the league Marcus banks was a legend. We all know how that ended. So as much as I like booker, I take absolutely NOTHING from the summer league.

Archie hasn't improved in 3 years. I don't see him resigned. He isn't even a role player at this point. Which is hugely disappointing. He is all hype and no substance.

And can keep going but the point is if your an outsider looking in, the Suns current roster doesn't scream "loaded" with talent. This team is maybe an 8th seed at best. Basically nothing has changed in three years. I got this team at exactly .500. Right now, there just isn't talent to get overly excited about.


Here is a scary thought. Lakers in just two years (through tanking) now have more of a future core than do the Suns. Russell has star written all over him. While the Suns keep fishing in the 13 range year after year. That area of the lake nobody wants to fish at because you never catch anything but we think we can outsmart everyone and keep going there and keep coming up empty.

[suns91fan]

Too many here have 'anointed' a core....that has yet to play together and contains youngsters who have not contributed enough to even know how long they will be in the league. Len was our 'core' last yr... and he is a second stringer this yr. Knight was barely here... and who knows the outcome of KeifMo and Tucker. Personally, I'd be surprised if they remain. Odds are against Booker and Goodwin

from McDuh's first yr, we have Bled, Goodwin, Len, Keif, and Tucker
From his second yr, we added Warren
Hardly a foundation to build upon.

Sure, now we have added Chandler, Weems, Telet, Booker, and who knows who else.... but its the same ol same ol presumptions on the outlook for the up-comer. You can probably go back and find similar wishfuls when we added Tolliver, IT, CusMo etc.

Not bashing here, this is pretty much fact. As far as I am concerned, we are starting over. McDuh and co F-d it up last yr and I'm one who isn't buying their spin. From here out, they should get judged on results. 2014-15 was a mess, and the mustard is on McDuh's chin.

Have to agree. There is pretty much no core. A core is in reference to "players to build around." Suns do not have a core. Suns have some very nice role players.

Bledsoe has proven that he can play 1 out of every 10 games. Everyone brings up the OKc game. You know why this game gets brought up because that's the only memorable game he had. That's what role players do. They have a memorable game here and there. Knight (as much as I think he can contribute) has done nothing. Tucker is on his way out. Len might qualify as a core player but all he has proven is that he is a fragile player and I'm a Len fan. Chandler is not a core player (definitely not at 33 years old).

Booker has shown some great play in the summer league. But this is the same league Seth Curry just won the MVP. Seth, the same guy who couldn't even earn a contract last year with the Suns. The summer league is also the league Marcus banks was a legend. We all know how that ended. So as much as I like booker, I take absolutely NOTHING from the summer league.

Archie hasn't improved in 3 years. I don't see him resigned. He isn't even a role player at this point. Which is hugely disappointing. He is all hype and no substance.

And can keep going but the point is if your an outsider looking in, the Suns current roster doesn't scream "loaded" with talent. This team is maybe an 8th seed at best. Basically nothing has changed in three years. I got this team at exactly .500. Right now, there just isn't talent to get overly excited about.


Here is a scary thought. Lakers in just two years (through tanking) now have more of a future core than do the Suns. Russell has star written all over him. While the Suns keep fishing in the 13 range year after year. That area of the lake nobody wants to fish at because you never catch anything but we think we can outsmart everyone and keep going there and keep coming up empty.

Wait, wait, wait. So you say Booker has proved nothing so far (that is true), but you also say Russell has a "star written all over him", yet he has proved nothing either. That is the worst reasoning ever! Do you understand that players picked in lower range, could end up being better than those above them? I am aware that an answer to this question is obvious, but when i see posts like this, i just have to ask...

[rsavaj]

Honestly, we've been on the treadmill ever since we cut Yuta Tabuse

[Scutt]

2010-11: 10th
2011-12: 10th
2012-13: 15th The front office built this one to try and compete for a playoff spot, but failed miserably.
2013-14: 9th
2014-15: 10th
2015- 16: TBD 9th or 10th?


Looks like a treadmill to me. Booker, Goodwin, and Len will all play less minutes then they should because of the additions of Chandler and Weems. This team lacks zero all-stars, yet they seem to think a few 30 year old vets are going to push them into the 8th seed. When McD got here, he said they would not sacrifice the future, for short term goals, and they wanted to build something long term. Yet we are going into his 3rd year, and we remain in NBA purgatory, trying to conbuild. Why cant Knight be the starting 2 guard and Goodwin/Booker split the backup minutes? Why did they need to bring in a 29 year old backup shooting guard in Weems? The same reason why they brought in Gerald Green, and never sold high on him. It really seems the Suns care more about being the 8th seed, than developing their own players. Although I am holding out hope that Tucker gets traded, and Weems can slide to the 3, allowing Booker and Goodwin some minutes, but I doubt it.

[Sunsdeuce]

Too many here have 'anointed' a core....that has yet to play together and contains youngsters who have not contributed enough to even know how long they will be in the league. Len was our 'core' last yr... and he is a second stringer this yr. Knight was barely here... and who knows the outcome of KeifMo and Tucker. Personally, I'd be surprised if they remain. Odds are against Booker and Goodwin

from McDuh's first yr, we have Bled, Goodwin, Len, Keif, and Tucker
From his second yr, we added Warren
Hardly a foundation to build upon.

Sure, now we have added Chandler, Weems, Telet, Booker, and who knows who else.... but its the same ol same ol presumptions on the outlook for the up-comer. You can probably go back and find similar wishfuls when we added Tolliver, IT, CusMo etc.

Not bashing here, this is pretty much fact. As far as I am concerned, we are starting over. McDuh and co F-d it up last yr and I'm one who isn't buying their spin. From here out, they should get judged on results. 2014-15 was a mess, and the mustard is on McDuh's chin.

Have to agree. There is pretty much no core. A core is in reference to "players to build around." Suns do not have a core. Suns have some very nice role players.

Bledsoe has proven that he can play 1 out of every 10 games. Everyone brings up the OKc game. You know why this game gets brought up because that's the only memorable game he had. That's what role players do. They have a memorable game here and there. Knight (as much as I think he can contribute) has done nothing. Tucker is on his way out. Len might qualify as a core player but all he has proven is that he is a fragile player and I'm a Len fan. Chandler is not a core player (definitely not at 33 years old).

Booker has shown some great play in the summer league. But this is the same league Seth Curry just won the MVP. Seth, the same guy who couldn't even earn a contract last year with the Suns. The summer league is also the league Marcus banks was a legend. We all know how that ended. So as much as I like booker, I take absolutely NOTHING from the summer league.

Archie hasn't improved in 3 years. I don't see him resigned. He isn't even a role player at this point. Which is hugely disappointing. He is all hype and no substance.

And can keep going but the point is if your an outsider looking in, the Suns current roster doesn't scream "loaded" with talent. This team is maybe an 8th seed at best. Basically nothing has changed in three years. I got this team at exactly .500. Right now, there just isn't talent to get overly excited about.


Here is a scary thought. Lakers in just two years (through tanking) now have more of a future core than do the Suns. Russell has star written all over him. While the Suns keep fishing in the 13 range year after year. That area of the lake nobody wants to fish at because you never catch anything but we think we can outsmart everyone and keep going there and keep coming up empty.

Wait, wait, wait. So you say Booker has proved nothing so far (that is true), but you also say Russell has a "star written all over him", yet he has proved nothing either. That is the worst reasoning ever! Do you understand that players picked in lower range, could end up being better than those above them? I am aware that an answer to this question is obvious, but when i see posts like this, i just have to ask...

There is a reason Russell was picked at #2 and booker at #13. Don't even get me started on the percentage chance that a#13 pick "could" be better than those picked above him. It's ridiculously tiny.

Tell you what I will pick at #2 and you pick at #13. Since your so confindent in your #13 picks. I'll take my chances at #2.

[RaisingArizona]

Booker was mocked as a top 10 pick-- we got extremely lucky he fell to us. Russell may have more upside in the long run but he's extremely raw at the moment.

[Frank Lee]

Hey, he might be a bit older and not realize it might take more than one offseason to turn over the roster. I think we have to attempt to be patient with the impatient old soul.

[bwgood77]

Hey, he might be a bit older and not realize it might take more than one offseason to turn over the roster. I think we have to attempt to be patient with the impatient old soul.

Not bad.

Most cynics are really crushed romantics: they've been hurt, they're sensitive, and their cynicism is a shell that's protecting this tiny, dear part in them that's still alive.

A cynic is a man who, when he smells flowers, looks around for the coffin.

Cynicism, like gullibility, is a symptom of underdeveloped critical faculties.

Cynicism masquerades as wisdom, but it is the farthest thing from it. Because cynics don’t learn anything. Because cynicism is a self-imposed blindness, a rejection of the world because we are afraid it will hurt us or disappoint us.

[bwgood77]

Not a knock on Len or Warren as much to show how highly regarded those players are.

I genuinely cannot understand what you are wishing/hoping/wanting the Suns to do. I was under the impression you wanted us to keep Dragic and was unhappy to see him go. But you also are talking like you want us to tank. But then you want us to get rid of Hornacek because he is not a good coach, but if you want to tank, why not keep a bad coach for awhile?

And what would your plan be? Are you just saying you want to trade guys like Bledsoe, Knight, Markieff and Chandler for picks? Picks hold a lot of value and people don't give up unprotected picks often so I don't know if you'd even be able to trade any of those guys for a guaranteed high pick anyway.

I am just pretty confused.

I think we are in a bit of a tough position because we surprised some people last year, and we ended up being better than most people thought, so our rebuild accelerated, but there isn't much you can do unless you want to just really try and trade all those guys above, for picks, and then that would probably set us back another 4-5 years. We might have a higher upside then, but we also might not.