Are the Suns a treadmill team?

[Scutt]

I think we are in a bit of a tough position because we surprised some people last year, and we ended up being better than most people thought, so our rebuild accelerated, but there isn't much you can do unless you want to just really try and trade all those guys above, for picks, and then that would probably set us back another 4-5 years. We might have a higher upside then, but we also might not.

How has the Suns rebuild been accelerated, when the rotation is constantly changing and the players most responsible for those wins are not even on the roster anymore? The key players from that 48 win season were Dragic, Green, Frye, and Plumlee. None of them were young building blocks, and they are all gone.

Its not like it was Bledsoe, Len, and Goodwin leading us to those wins. The Suns do not have an established young core they are building off of.

[bwgood77]

I think we are in a bit of a tough position because we surprised some people last year, and we ended up being better than most people thought, so our rebuild accelerated, but there isn't much you can do unless you want to just really try and trade all those guys above, for picks, and then that would probably set us back another 4-5 years. We might have a higher upside then, but we also might not.

How has the Suns rebuild been accelerated, when the rotation is constantly changing and the players most responsible for those wins are not even on the roster anymore? The key players from that 48 win season were Dragic, Green, Frye, and Plumlee. None of them were young building blocks, and they are all gone.

Its not like it was Bledsoe, Len, and Goodwin leading us to those wins. The Suns do not have an established young core they are building off of.

It was accelerated because the young guys were better than we thought, so we flipped some for talent and/or cap space and picks. We knew we were not going to get a high pick, so we maximized our assets which allowed us to sign some vets, most still being young guys with more upside.

[Scutt]

It was accelerated because the young guys were better than we thought, so we flipped some for talent and/or cap space and picks. We knew we were not going to get a high pick, so we maximized our assets which allowed us to sign some vets, most still being young guys with more upside.

The only young guys on that 48 win roster were Bledsoe, Plumlee, and the Morris Bros. Bledsoe was only there for half the season. The Morris brothers and Plumlee both played better than expected, and Len and Goodwin did not crack the rotation. Who are these young guys that we flipped for talent and/or capspace and picks? Plumlee got shipped off the following year, after asking for a trade, and Marcus got shipped off because of his bad attitude. We didn't sell high on anyone from that 2014 season, and we have nothing to show for it, in terms of player development.

[bwgood77]

It was accelerated because the young guys were better than we thought, so we flipped some for talent and/or cap space and picks. We knew we were not going to get a high pick, so we maximized our assets which allowed us to sign some vets, most still being young guys with more upside.

The only young guys on that 48 win roster were Bledsoe, Plumlee, and the Morris Bros. Bledsoe was only there for half the season. The Morris brothers and Plumlee both played better than expected, and Len and Goodwin did not crack the rotation. Who are these young guys that we flipped for talent and/or capspace and picks? Plumlee got shipped off the following year, after asking for a trade, and Marcus got shipped off because of his bad attitude. We didn't sell high on anyone from that 2014 season, and we have nothing to show for it.

I don't know if I want to go through all the summer and deadline moves. I figured you knew about them. They traded Dragic for picks, and with that cap space made another trade to get Brandon Knight who is younger with higher upside. They also used some of the cap space created to sign Tyson Chandler, and another young guy coming off a rookie contract, in Teletovic. I didn't think you would be a fan of keeping Dragic or Frye, so basically they have been replaced by much younger players in Knight and Teletovic.

[JTrain]

So you just listed the same concerns LITERALLY EVERY SINGLE TEAM IN EVERY SINGLE SPORT experiences going into a season, but some how they're exclusively our problem.....

Seriously, people would've been happier if we showed no signs of life. Remember when everyone, and I mean EVERYONE praised McD for getting Bledsoe for Dudley, Miles Plumlee Gerald Green and a 1st for Luis Scola? Remember how everyone trusted McD when he drafted Len and traded up for Archie and drafted TJ and Ennis and Bogdan because they were good prospects?

ONE blunder of signing IT -- which was to a great contract by the way -- that had unforeseen consequences led to us trading him and Dragic, Ennis and protected Laker Pick to get Brandon Knight. Now it's too early to tell if that was a good save or a lemon, but dammit give it some f*cking time people, or just change allegiance to f*cking Philly and live in the dream land of Tankersville where tomorrow is uncertain, but better than the **** we've got on the court for you now!

Might I recommend a Snickers?

[MrMiyagi]

Not bad.

Most cynics are really crushed romantics: they've been hurt, they're sensitive, and their cynicism is a shell that's protecting this tiny, dear part in them that's still alive.

A cynic is a man who, when he smells flowers, looks around for the coffin.

Cynicism, like gullibility, is a symptom of underdeveloped critical faculties.

Cynicism masquerades as wisdom, but it is the farthest thing from it. Because cynics don’t learn anything. Because cynicism is a self-imposed blindness, a rejection of the world because we are afraid it will hurt us or disappoint us.

BW, finding the most accurate description of this board.

[saintEscaton]

So you just listed the same concerns LITERALLY EVERY SINGLE TEAM IN EVERY SINGLE SPORT experiences going into a season, but some how they're exclusively our problem.....

Seriously, people would've been happier if we showed no signs of life. Remember when everyone, and I mean EVERYONE praised McD for getting Bledsoe for Dudley, Miles Plumlee Gerald Green and a 1st for Luis Scola? Remember how everyone trusted McD when he drafted Len and traded up for Archie and drafted TJ and Ennis and Bogdan because they were good prospects?

ONE blunder of signing IT -- which was to a great contract by the way -- that had unforeseen consequences led to us trading him and Dragic, Ennis and protected Laker Pick to get Brandon Knight. Now it's too early to tell if that was a good save or a lemon, but dammit give it some f*cking time people, or just change allegiance to f*cking Philly and live in the dream land of Tankersville where tomorrow is uncertain, but better than the **** we've got on the court for you now!

Might I recommend a Snickers?

[Frank Lee]

I don't know if I want to go through all the summer and deadline moves. I figured you knew about them. They traded Dragic for picks, and with that cap space made another trade to get Brandon Knight who is younger with higher upside. They also used some of the cap space created to sign Tyson Chandler, and another young guy coming off a rookie contract, in Teletovic. I didn't think you would be a fan of keeping Dragic or Frye, so basically they have been replaced by much younger players in Knight and Teletovic.

So Knight has a higher upside than Dragic...just because he is younger? meaning he will be better than prime Dragon ? That is crystal balling BS. You a bird in the hand or two in the bush guy ? Keep in mind, Knight was a reactionary move to McDuh F-n up a good thing with Bled and the Dragon. You really think he had it planned all along????

Furthermore....

Teletovic is a young 29.... yet same age as that old guard Goran.

Chandler is 32. GrandPa Frye is... 32 as well

What is it with you and age ??? quit using it a convenient defense on your optimistical rebuttals.... its getting old

LMA is 30, LeBron James is 30...
What was Nash doing when he was 30 ?? Oh, I remember, playing in the WCFs....just saying. Stop it.

Delusionally yours,

Frank


PS....

Optimism - the doctrine or belief that everything is beautiful, including what is ugly.
Ambrose Bierce

Optimism is the madness of insisting that all is well when we are miserable.
Voltaire

Two can play, No?

[Scutt]

It was accelerated because the young guys were better than we thought, so we flipped some for talent and/or cap space and picks. We knew we were not going to get a high pick, so we maximized our assets which allowed us to sign some vets, most still being young guys with more upside.

The only young guys on that 48 win roster were Bledsoe, Plumlee, and the Morris Bros. Bledsoe was only there for half the season. The Morris brothers and Plumlee both played better than expected, and Len and Goodwin did not crack the rotation. Who are these young guys that we flipped for talent and/or capspace and picks? Plumlee got shipped off the following year, after asking for a trade, and Marcus got shipped off because of his bad attitude. We didn't sell high on anyone from that 2014 season, and we have nothing to show for it.

I don't know if I want to go through all the summer and deadline moves. I figured you knew about them. They traded Dragic for picks, and with that cap space made another trade to get Brandon Knight who is younger with higher upside. They also used some of the cap space created to sign Tyson Chandler, and another young guy coming off a rookie contract, in Teletovic. I didn't think you would be a fan of keeping Dragic or Frye, so basically they have been replaced by much younger players in Knight and Teletovic.

I am aware of them, I just fail to see how you think those moves have accelerated our rebuild. Those moves could just as easily set us back in terms of player development, all for a few extra wins. A 33 year old Chandler is taking Lens starting spot. A 29 year old Weems is going to be the first guard off the bench, taking minutes from Booker and Goodwin.

As for trading Dragic, it seems pretty safe to say the Suns wanted to keep him. They could have sold high on him, but they chose not to, and even brought in his brother. He demanded and trade and forced the front offices hand. Its not like it was a calculated move in the rebuilding process. I do like Brandon Knight, but he is another combo guard, and I am concerned with how he is going to play with Bledsoe. I am certainly not going to think the front offices moves, like signing Knight and Chandler, have accelerated our rebuild, as I do not count my chickens before they hatch.

[bwgood77]

I don't know if I want to go through all the summer and deadline moves. I figured you knew about them. They traded Dragic for picks, and with that cap space made another trade to get Brandon Knight who is younger with higher upside. They also used some of the cap space created to sign Tyson Chandler, and another young guy coming off a rookie contract, in Teletovic. I didn't think you would be a fan of keeping Dragic or Frye, so basically they have been replaced by much younger players in Knight and Teletovic.

So Knight has a higher upside than Dragic...just because he is younger? meaning he will be better than prime Dragon ? That is crystal balling BS. You a bird in the hand or two in the bush guy ? Keep in mind, Knight was a reactionary move to McDuh F-n up a good thing with Bled and the Dragon. You really think he had it planned all along????

Furthermore....

Teletovic is a young 29.... yet same age as that old guard Goran.

Chandler is 32. GrandPa Frye is... 32 as well

What is it with you and age ??? quit using it a convenient defense on your optimistical rebuttals.... its getting old

LMA is 30, LeBron James is 30...
What was Nash doing when he was 30 ?? Oh, I remember, playing in the WCFs....just saying. Stop it.

Delusionally yours,

Frank

Well, I admit the FO made a huge blunder with Dragic, if they wanted to keep him. Personally I don't think they really wanted to from day one, but Sarver did. Does Knight have higher upside? In my estimation, yes. That doesn't mean I think he will end up being a better player than Dragic was a season ago, but I think he will improve more than Dragic will if we are basing Dragic's start point on his all 3rd team nba year. As much as I liked Dragic and wanted to keep him, we all know the Suns were likely not going to contend while he was still relevant (and also Knight is less expensive than Dragic). Who knows how much better Knight can get? He just almost made the all star game and is scratching his surface. I don't know if you are a Hornacek fan, but I think he makes players better and puts them in the right situation to utilize their talents....the proof is there.

Yes, Teletovic is a young 29 and a cheap one year contract as opposed to a larger longer term contract for the 32 year old Channing Frye we could have kept.

Can't tell if you prefer Frye over Chandler for this team. I hope not.

Yes, Nash did well with a core of vet talent...not mostly young guys at the age of 30.

I think we just have different views...while I'm not extremist on championship or bust and mostly just want to enjoy watching the team and hope they make the playoffs and advance, you seem to be even less concerned about championships than just having a solid basketball product that is enjoyable to watch, and of course you want to see them advance, but first and foremost they need to be a fun team to watch. I wholeheartedly agree with that. I suspect you are a little older than me, and I'm guessing as I age, I might vear a bit more towards just purely wanting enjoyment, guys you respect, and whatever happens so be it, as long as I can watch a team I like. I feel like that to a large extent now, but I still love watching the young talent and know it will be tough to really compete with OKC, SA, LAC, GS, HOU and MEM to get far very quickly.

Oh, and I love the quotes...I always love quotes...so keep it up and I will banter...all in good fun.

[bwgood77]

The only young guys on that 48 win roster were Bledsoe, Plumlee, and the Morris Bros. Bledsoe was only there for half the season. The Morris brothers and Plumlee both played better than expected, and Len and Goodwin did not crack the rotation. Who are these young guys that we flipped for talent and/or capspace and picks? Plumlee got shipped off the following year, after asking for a trade, and Marcus got shipped off because of his bad attitude. We didn't sell high on anyone from that 2014 season, and we have nothing to show for it.

I don't know if I want to go through all the summer and deadline moves. I figured you knew about them. They traded Dragic for picks, and with that cap space made another trade to get Brandon Knight who is younger with higher upside. They also used some of the cap space created to sign Tyson Chandler, and another young guy coming off a rookie contract, in Teletovic. I didn't think you would be a fan of keeping Dragic or Frye, so basically they have been replaced by much younger players in Knight and Teletovic.

I am aware of them, I just fail to see how you think those moves have accelerated our rebuild. Those moves could just as easily set us back in terms of player development, all for a few extra wins. A 33 year old Chandler is taking Lens starting spot. A 29 year old Weems is going to be the first guard off the bench, taking minutes from Booker and Goodwin.

As for trading Dragic, it seems pretty safe to say the Suns wanted to keep him. They could have sold high on him, but they chose not to, and even brought in his brother. He demanded and trade and forced the front offices hand. Its not like it was a calculated move in the rebuilding process. I do like Brandon Knight, but he is another combo guard, and I am concerned with how he is going to play with Bledsoe. I am certainly not going to think the front offices moves, like signing Knight and Chandler, have accelerated our rebuild, as I do not count my chickens before they hatch.

They ended up getting a great return for Dragic regardless. I don't care when we traded him and what the circumstances were. We were unlikely to ever get two firsts, and one unprotected for him. To get that for an impending FA is unbelievable.

[MrMiyagi]

PS....

Optimism - the doctrine or belief that everything is beautiful, including what is ugly.
Ambrose Bierce

Optimism is the madness of insisting that all is well when we are miserable.
Voltaire

Two can play, No?

We're watching basketball, not battling the plague. To say that watching basketball makes you miserable, then maybe you should just not do it....

[Frank Lee]

Um... can you honestly say you did not turn off the tube at all last yr ? You were able to gut it out for every game ?

Can anyone here say that ?

Yeah, last year, watching this team was sometimes miserable.... so I didn't.

[MrMiyagi]

Um... can you honestly say you did not turn off the tube at all last yr ? You were able to gut it out for every game ?

Can anyone here say that ?

Yeah, last year, watching this team was sometimes miserable.... so I didn't.

Whenever I had time to watch a game, I watched the game to its completion. I didn't watch every single game, but the games I tuned into, I stayed tuned.

[RunDogGun]

Um... can you honestly say you did not turn off the tube at all last yr ? You were able to gut it out for every game ?

Can anyone here say that ?

Yeah, last year, watching this team was sometimes miserable.... so I didn't.

Whenever I had time to watch a game, I watched the game to its completion. I didn't watch every single game, but the games I tuned into, I stayed tuned.

Me too. I even went to the bar to watch a couple of games this year, because they blacked out the game here in Minny. I also bought tickets to one of the Minny games, and was offered tickets to the Jan 7th game but went to visit my nephew.

I didn't get to watch all the games, times and showings don't fit into my schedule, so what I could watch, I did.

My question is: why the heck is this stickied?

[bwgood77]

Um... can you honestly say you did not turn off the tube at all last yr ? You were able to gut it out for every game ?

Can anyone here say that ?

Yeah, last year, watching this team was sometimes miserable.... so I didn't.

Whenever I had time to watch a game, I watched the game to its completion. I didn't watch every single game, but the games I tuned into, I stayed tuned.

Me too. I even went to the bar to watch a couple of games this year, because they blacked out the game here in Minny. I also bought tickets to one of the Minny games, and was offered tickets to the Jan 7th game but went to visit my nephew.

I didn't get to watch all the games, times and showings don't fit into my schedule, so what I could watch, I did.

My question is: why the heck is this stickied?

I discovered ballstreams.com this past year, and I highly suggest utilizing it. It is pretty cheap for what you get and you can watch games on dvr....you tune in late and speed up...Every break is cut out, so (I think) TASTIC, for example, watched them on his bus ride to work every morning since it is the actual 48 minutes of play. Plus you can tune into other games that are close in the 4th if you care to do that.

It won't be stickied for long....I just stickied it because of a funny post by Frank Lee and some funny banter so people might be more likely to see it. I will probably unsticky it in a day or two.

[saintEscaton]

It was a total sh*show of a trainwreck post All-Star break after the Tragic fiasco At least before we were entertaining enough to tune in only to be let down by soulcrushing buzzer beater after buzzer beater. I remember the game we got blown about by the Celts after we dealt IT to them. Watching was a tortuous ordeal. But I guess that can just be attributed to lack of chemistry between new teammates and quitting after losing out in the playoff race.

[lilfishi22]

I think most would agree last year was ugly to watch. From the first 40 games watching our PG's fighting (and subtly complaining) for the primary ball handler role to the last half of the season watching our team desperately trying to gel on the fly.

But I feel this offseason we did much better at actually addressing our issues and weaknesses than last season when we replaced Frye with a worse player, adding *another* ball dominant PG to an already potent back court and making a non-basketball move in signing Zoran to appease Goran. I wasn't happy with our moves last offseason but this time around, we addressed our rebounding, defense and leadership issues with Chandler, we have retained our young talent and added some good depth in Weems and Telly. Couple that with improvement from our young guys, I feel pretty good about this upcoming season.

At the very least, I think we're a much more balanced team so I'm hopeful it would lead to a better product on the court.

[Revived]

Not a knock on Len or Warren as much to show how highly regarded those players are.

I genuinely cannot understand what you are wishing/hoping/wanting the Suns to do. I was under the impression you wanted us to keep Dragic and was unhappy to see him go. But you also are talking like you want us to tank. But then you want us to get rid of Hornacek because he is not a good coach, but if you want to tank, why not keep a bad coach for awhile?

And what would your plan be? Are you just saying you want to trade guys like Bledsoe, Knight, Markieff and Chandler for picks? Picks hold a lot of value and people don't give up unprotected picks often so I don't know if you'd even be able to trade any of those guys for a guaranteed high pick anyway.

I am just pretty confused.

I think we are in a bit of a tough position because we surprised some people last year, and we ended up being better than most people thought, so our rebuild accelerated, but there isn't much you can do unless you want to just really try and trade all those guys above, for picks, and then that would probably set us back another 4-5 years. We might have a higher upside then, but we also might not.

No I don't want them to trade Chandler, Knight, Bledsoe etc for picks unless it's an eye opening deal.

I think the idea on this board that draft selections don't matter and that a #1 pick has just as much chance of becoming a star or good player as the #13 pick is bs. And before you say "who said that", nobody said those exact words but at least one person has said something close enough to that.

The same people who believe that the Suns are in better position than teams like the Twolves which is an opinion that nobody outside Suns would ever share.

Like saint posted earlier, if #13 is just as good as #1-3 then what's the point of having the draft lottery? Why not just have whichever team shows up first to the draft in June pick first and have it an order of whichever team reps show up at the draft first or something?

Again, all this is ridiculous and quite frankly bwgood, it's a bit sickening to see you turn all homer just because of the mod title. Was hoping you remain objective (I'm not saying my side is objective or that I'm objective but I don't think you are here).

Sure we're in better position this off season now but it's not really time to be that excited about the direction this franchise is headed and I think fans have that right to not be excited. It's basically playoffs or bust especially with the West getting considerably weaker among the playoff teams from last season.

[Revived]

PS....

Optimism - the doctrine or belief that everything is beautiful, including what is ugly.
Ambrose Bierce

Optimism is the madness of insisting that all is well when we are miserable.
Voltaire

Two can play, No?

We're watching basketball, not battling the plague. To say that watching basketball makes you miserable, then maybe you should just not do it....

So when he defined optimism, it became "We're not battling the plague it's just a game"....lmao ok how about I respond to Bwgood's cynicism definition with "We're not going to Iraq for war, it's just basketball"?

I love love love, LOVE the double standards of this forum