Suns Offseason Thread 4: Where's Terrence Williams?

[lilfishi22]

Even if you're not enamoured by Knight as a player, I love the fact that he didn't waste anyone's time and got a deal done early because he wanted to be here.

[Sunsdeuce]

Also, Bledsoe's already proven to be a quality starting PG in this league. People saying this is his make or break year are either oblivious to the new salary cap or think you have to be a top 10 PG to be worth his money in this league. I disagree with both.

I respect your opinion but I don't agree with your assessment of "proven." Come up with as many excuses as you want but fact remains NO team even offered him a contract. I have said this many many times (as well as many others) PGs are a dime a dozen right now and only 4-5 teams don't have a "quality" PG. So if your only argument is his cap number is friendly than you don't have an argument. And it Doesn't change the fact that he isn't "proven!" He has proven he leads all PGs in turnovers.

If you honestly believe every team in the NBA didn't think he was worth a contract then you need professional help. There's plenty of reasons a contract wasn't offered--namely that the Suns had infinite cap space and no reason not to re-sign him. My only argument is he is a productive, damn good 2 way player who puts up plenty of stats that help us win, and there are only a couple PGs better than him who are as young at that level of production. That's the only argument I need, and it absolutely obliterates your argument, which is based on contract offers in a closed system in which a team retains all rights to the player and in which everyone knows the team holding his rights will match. The only reason he isn't "proven" is because you have a personal issue against him, and that's obvious from reading your "arguments". That's your right to have a wrong opinion, but don't try to act as if it's rational.

You sound like Dave Stewart, who believes draft picks' value is equal to their signing bonus.

It's fine to believe Bledsoe isn't a star or won't be one going forward. But to claim he's not a quality starter is to ignore his entire history as a starter. It's one of the craziest things I've ever read on real GM, and that's saying something.

At least you got one thing right.

[AtheJ415]

I respect your opinion but I don't agree with your assessment of "proven." Come up with as many excuses as you want but fact remains NO team even offered him a contract. I have said this many many times (as well as many others) PGs are a dime a dozen right now and only 4-5 teams don't have a "quality" PG. So if your only argument is his cap number is friendly than you don't have an argument. And it Doesn't change the fact that he isn't "proven!" He has proven he leads all PGs in turnovers.

If you honestly believe every team in the NBA didn't think he was worth a contract then you need professional help. There's plenty of reasons a contract wasn't offered--namely that the Suns had infinite cap space and no reason not to re-sign him. My only argument is he is a productive, damn good 2 way player who puts up plenty of stats that help us win, and there are only a couple PGs better than him who are as young at that level of production. That's the only argument I need, and it absolutely obliterates your argument, which is based on contract offers in a closed system in which a team retains all rights to the player and in which everyone knows the team holding his rights will match. The only reason he isn't "proven" is because you have a personal issue against him, and that's obvious from reading your "arguments". That's your right to have a wrong opinion, but don't try to act as if it's rational.

You sound like Dave Stewart, who believes draft picks' value is equal to their signing bonus.

It's fine to believe Bledsoe isn't a star or won't be one going forward. But to claim he's not a quality starter is to ignore his entire history as a starter. It's one of the craziest things I've ever read on real GM, and that's saying something.

At least you got one thing right.

Lol. That's way more than I could say of anything I've read by you on this topic.

I feel sorry for you. You must believe the Suns have 0 quality starters then, and since Bledsoe is a top 50 player in this league, I guess you probably don't even believe there are 50 quality starters in the entire association. Cheering for any team must be brutal for you.

[Matt1979]

No word of signing Mike James? If we don't someone else will. Soon.

[carey]

No word of signing Mike James? If we don't someone else will. Soon.

A few days ago Coro said our 13 man roster is likely set with no additions coming. James & Jorts at least deserve camp invites. Give them a chance to make the squad over Leuer & Price.

[jcsunsfan]

Thoughts from the presser:

1. Brandon Knight is a stand up guy. The Suns offered him a fair deal and he took it. He didn't mess around. He wants to be in Phoenix. He wants to be a Sun. That is refreshing. I hope he becomes a star. He is the type of person you would want to be your star.
2. "We'll make it work." Interesting choice of words regarding teaming up with Eric. I think he is intrigued with the idea of having two pg's but not convinced it is going to be easy to adapt.
3. "We had too many" Jeff's comment about the 2 pg situation last year. Clear acknowledgement from the coaching staff that the signing of IT was a mistake for team chemistry. The 2 pg system works when they can complement one another when they are both on the court BUT ESPECIALLY when they know they will be the guy when the other one was resting. Good to see the acknowledgement of that.
4. "We had a lack of leadership, maturity and professionalism" Babby's remarkably candid comment about last year's roster. Clearly it was a swipe at the Morris twins most. The blatant examples of the lack of professionalism were all the technicals, public arguments with the coach, publicly ripping the fans, and running out on the press after a career game. While Babby did not dwell on the issue, he honestly and candidly admitted it.
5. Tyson Chandler will clearly be an influential piece on this team. But Knight and Weems will be also. You have high character guys who intend to be leaders. If this team is not better, it is sure to be more likable.
6. They are not quite done. It sounds like there is one more move they are trying to make. It also sounds like they are not sure they can pull it off. Babby clearly said they "might" have one more move. I am convinced that a trade of Markieff and/or PJ is a possibility. Babby made no effort in this presser to say anything about wanting to keep Kieff. My guess is that they are trying to work out a trade but they want to get value in return and are willing to go into the season with Kieff unless they get what they want. So, let me speculate wildly. Detroit would be the team, since that is where Marcus is and I would not be surprised to see Detroit wanting both twins. So, who would it be the Suns want in return? "Stanley, I presume." (yes, I said that on purpose).

[saintEscaton]

Thoughts from the presser:

1. Brandon Knight is a stand up guy. The Suns offered him a fair deal and he took it. He didn't mess around. He wants to be in Phoenix. He wants to be a Sun. That is refreshing. I hope he becomes a star. He is the type of person you would want to be your star.
2. "We'll make it work." Interesting choice of words regarding teaming up with Eric. I think he is intrigued with the idea of having two pg's but not convinced it is going to be easy to adapt.
3. "We had too many" Jeff's comment about the 2 pg situation last year. Clear acknowledgement from the coaching staff that the signing of IT was a mistake for team chemistry. The 2 pg system works when they can complement one another when they are both on the court BUT ESPECIALLY when they know they will be the guy when the other one was resting. Good to see the acknowledgement of that.
4. "We had a lack of leadership, maturity and professionalism" Babby's remarkably candid comment about last year's roster. Clearly it was a swipe at the Morris twins most. The blatant examples of the lack of professionalism were all the technicals, public arguments with the coach, publicly ripping the fans, and running out on the press after a career game. While Babby did not dwell on the issue, he honestly and candidly admitted it.
5. Tyson Chandler will clearly be an influential piece on this team. But Knight and Weems will be also. You have high character guys who intend to be leaders. If this team is not better, it is sure to be more likable.
6. They are not quite done. It sounds like there is one more move they are trying to make. It also sounds like they are not sure they can pull it off. Babby clearly said they "might" have one more move. I am convinced that a trade of Markieff and/or PJ is a possibility. Babby made no effort in this presser to say anything about wanting to keep Kieff. My guess is that they are trying to work out a trade but they want to get value in return and are willing to go into the season with Kieff unless they get what they want. So, let me speculate wildly. Detroit would be the team, since that is where Marcus is and I would not be surprised to see Detroit wanting both twins. So, who would it be the Suns want in return? "Stanley, I presume." (yes, I said that on purpose).

Detroit would hang up the phone and would have to be outta their minds to give that offer serious consideration. Why would they part ways with a stud like Stanimal before his rookie season? Just because Kieff is the "proven" commodity?

[letsgosuns]

Thoughts from the presser:

1. Brandon Knight is a stand up guy. The Suns offered him a fair deal and he took it. He didn't mess around. He wants to be in Phoenix. He wants to be a Sun. That is refreshing. I hope he becomes a star. He is the type of person you would want to be your star.
2. "We'll make it work." Interesting choice of words regarding teaming up with Eric. I think he is intrigued with the idea of having two pg's but not convinced it is going to be easy to adapt.
3. "We had too many" Jeff's comment about the 2 pg situation last year. Clear acknowledgement from the coaching staff that the signing of IT was a mistake for team chemistry. The 2 pg system works when they can complement one another when they are both on the court BUT ESPECIALLY when they know they will be the guy when the other one was resting. Good to see the acknowledgement of that.
4. "We had a lack of leadership, maturity and professionalism" Babby's remarkably candid comment about last year's roster. Clearly it was a swipe at the Morris twins most. The blatant examples of the lack of professionalism were all the technicals, public arguments with the coach, publicly ripping the fans, and running out on the press after a career game. While Babby did not dwell on the issue, he honestly and candidly admitted it.
5. Tyson Chandler will clearly be an influential piece on this team. But Knight and Weems will be also. You have high character guys who intend to be leaders. If this team is not better, it is sure to be more likable.
6. They are not quite done. It sounds like there is one more move they are trying to make. It also sounds like they are not sure they can pull it off. Babby clearly said they "might" have one more move. I am convinced that a trade of Markieff and/or PJ is a possibility. Babby made no effort in this presser to say anything about wanting to keep Kieff. My guess is that they are trying to work out a trade but they want to get value in return and are willing to go into the season with Kieff unless they get what they want. So, let me speculate wildly. Detroit would be the team, since that is where Marcus is and I would not be surprised to see Detroit wanting both twins. So, who would it be the Suns want in return? "Stanley, I presume." (yes, I said that on purpose).

I agree with this, especially about the Morris twins aspect. I think Markieff will be traded but I do not think it will be to Detroit. Now I have mentioned this idea before but I will say it again because I think it is a realistic possibility.

The Suns did not get Aldridge like everyone hoped for and whoever is on the team right now is a major step down compared to him. The Suns are a perimeter oriented team like many teams in the league and it is the way basketball has evolved. Dominant scoring big men do not really exist right now and many teams are staying away from posting up their big men. So how about the Suns go all out for a defensive juggernaut frontcourt and get the majority of their scoring plays from the guards and small forwards.

The trade I suggest is Markieff and Tucker for Tristan Thompson. The key here though is not giving Thompson that four year max offer he is seeking. I would sign him for the 1+1 max deal where he is signed for one year and then has a player option. It is a very attractive contract for both parties. One, the Suns are not on the hook long term and two, Thompson has the ability to get a much greater pay day one or two years from now if he elevates himself to a top power forward in the league.

Basketball wise it is simple. The Suns are not a pure ball movement team. The majority of their points come from isolations and cuts. They are nothing like Nash's Suns where Nash orchestrated with a bunch of great shooters and finishers around him. The Suns would instead be built around defense instead of offense. A Chandler and Thompson frontcourt could be so dominant defensively and on the boards it would be hard to find a better defensive frontcourt. Bledsoe, Knight, and Warren could start and be the main scorers while Chandler and Thompson score from alley-oops, offensive rebounds, and occasional post-ups. Off the bench you have Goodwin and Booker at the guards and Weems to take the place of Tucker. Teletovich backs up as the stretch four and Len is the backup center and provides his defensive presence and scoring presence in the middle.

Here is another major point of emphasis. If the Suns are seriously considering going after Kevin Durant, who do you think he would rather player with? A fantastic defensive power forward like Thompson or a soft, weak defender like Markieff. The answer is obvious to me. There is a reason why Lebron has publicly stated he wants Thompson back. Defense wins championships.

By the way, I am not saying the Suns will get Durant for sure with that frontcourt, I am just saying it makes them more attractive.

The Suns have never had a dominant defensive team. Having a frontcourt of Chandler and Thompson would completely change the culture to something it has never been before. Defense first. This organization has always been offense first. There are no championship banners hanging in the arena. It is time to try something else than what they have done for 50 years. It is just an idea. Not saying it would work, but there is no denying how much better the Suns would be defensively. I would like to see that happen.

[Jarlaxle0204]

That was a good presser. It's really hard not to like Brandon Knight as a person. He says all the right things and I believe he honestly means them. I'm hoping with a full training camp under their belts, this team clicks a little better than they looked at the end of the season last year. I think they honestly will and with Tyson and Knight they have some good, strong voices in the lockerroom to guide this young team in the right direction.

It seemed pretty telling that they didn't mention Markieff at all and I have a feeling if they can find what they feel is appropriate value for him, he'll be shown the door quickly.

I'm very optimistic for the upcoming season and happy to have a whole bunch of players I can feel good rooting for now.

[drewsprocket]

No to Tristan...
He's a good fit with the cavs and wont be for the Suns. It would allow teams to just play us on the perimeter and force the guards to drive no where in the paint. Sure Defense would be fine but spacing would be ****.

[RaisingArizona]

LOL, you guys never stop trying to trade Kieff.

[jcsunsfan]

Thoughts from the presser:

1. Brandon Knight is a stand up guy. The Suns offered him a fair deal and he took it. He didn't mess around. He wants to be in Phoenix. He wants to be a Sun. That is refreshing. I hope he becomes a star. He is the type of person you would want to be your star.
2. "We'll make it work." Interesting choice of words regarding teaming up with Eric. I think he is intrigued with the idea of having two pg's but not convinced it is going to be easy to adapt.
3. "We had too many" Jeff's comment about the 2 pg situation last year. Clear acknowledgement from the coaching staff that the signing of IT was a mistake for team chemistry. The 2 pg system works when they can complement one another when they are both on the court BUT ESPECIALLY when they know they will be the guy when the other one was resting. Good to see the acknowledgement of that.
4. "We had a lack of leadership, maturity and professionalism" Babby's remarkably candid comment about last year's roster. Clearly it was a swipe at the Morris twins most. The blatant examples of the lack of professionalism were all the technicals, public arguments with the coach, publicly ripping the fans, and running out on the press after a career game. While Babby did not dwell on the issue, he honestly and candidly admitted it.
5. Tyson Chandler will clearly be an influential piece on this team. But Knight and Weems will be also. You have high character guys who intend to be leaders. If this team is not better, it is sure to be more likable.
6. They are not quite done. It sounds like there is one more move they are trying to make. It also sounds like they are not sure they can pull it off. Babby clearly said they "might" have one more move. I am convinced that a trade of Markieff and/or PJ is a possibility. Babby made no effort in this presser to say anything about wanting to keep Kieff. My guess is that they are trying to work out a trade but they want to get value in return and are willing to go into the season with Kieff unless they get what they want. So, let me speculate wildly. Detroit would be the team, since that is where Marcus is and I would not be surprised to see Detroit wanting both twins. So, who would it be the Suns want in return? "Stanley, I presume." (yes, I said that on purpose).

Detroit would hang up the phone and would have to be outta their minds to give that offer serious consideration. Why would they part ways with a stud like Stanimal before his rookie season? Just because Kieff is the "proven" commodity?

I wasn't actually making a trade proposal. I would assume any actual trade would assume a combination of players and picks to make it even.

[Matt1979]

No word of signing Mike James? If we don't someone else will. Soon.

A few days ago Coro said our 13 man roster is likely set with no additions coming. James & Jorts at least deserve camp invites. Give them a chance to make the squad over Leuer & Price.

I don't know enough about Leuer to make judgements about him vs Jorts, however we (probably) aren't going to be a playoff team and if we do it'll likely be a first round exit so why not give James the 5-6 mins a game instead of Price and see what he can do??

[NTB]

http://www.12news.com/videos/news/2015/07/20/coop-goes-1-on-1-with-brandon-knight/30437099/

This is a very nice interview.

[Two Time]

I agree with the last few posters that have praised Brandon Knight as a person. He knows how to present himself well. He is smart, speaks very well, and knows how to let off a positive attitude.
If Brandon Knight could play basketball this season, as well as he conducted himself in the interview, I would be estactic. I wasn't really hating the trade for him, but I am definitely not blown away with him as a player, he has a ton to prove(IMO).
At least he is a likeable guy, and his clumsy ass plays as hard as possible every night. I don't mind tuning in to watch and see where he goes.

[plonden]

The trade I suggest is Markieff and Tucker for Tristan Thompson. The key here though is not giving Thompson that four year max offer he is seeking. I would sign him for the 1+1 max deal where he is signed for one year and then has a player option. It is a very attractive contract for both parties. One, the Suns are not on the hook long term and two, Thompson has the ability to get a much greater pay day one or two years from now if he elevates himself to a top power forward in the league.

Basketball wise it is simple. The Suns are not a pure ball movement team. The majority of their points come from isolations and cuts. They are nothing like Nash's Suns where Nash orchestrated with a bunch of great shooters and finishers around him. The Suns would instead be built around defense instead of offense. A Chandler and Thompson frontcourt could be so dominant defensively and on the boards it would be hard to find a better defensive frontcourt. Bledsoe, Knight, and Warren could start and be the main scorers while Chandler and Thompson score from alley-oops, offensive rebounds, and occasional post-ups. Off the bench you have Goodwin and Booker at the guards and Weems to take the place of Tucker. Teletovich backs up as the stretch four and Len is the backup center and provides his defensive presence and scoring presence in the middle.

I think you make some really great points about the defensive side of things. But, I think you're underestimating the negative effects a Thompson-Chandler combination at the 4-5 would have on the offensive side of the ball. Perimeter shooting, and more specifically, three point shooting, ensures proper spacing. Proper spacing, in turn, opens up driving lanes because it prevents off-ball defenders from straying too far from the player they are guarding. For the current Suns team, this matters. A lot. Players like Bledsoe and Knight are both a legitimate threat from deep and in driving to the lane. Goodwin and Warren are currently not legitimate three point threats. That means defenders can sag off of them and pack the paint, which would make those shots harder. It allows defenses to double team much easier. How would Warren score if you took away the driving lanes to the basket?

The closest current analog is probably the Memphis Grizzlies. Memphis has a very strong front court in Marc Gasol and Zach Randolph. Neither player has much range, although, to their credit, either can operate effectively on the elbow and both players have developed post games. As a result, Memphis scored the highest percentage of points in the paint than any other league. Memphis also scored the second fewest amount of points off of threes in the league last season (after only Minnesota). Memphis is able to make it work solely because Gasol and Randolph have enough of a range to make defenses pay for packing the paint. But, neither Chandler nor Thompson fits that bill. Consider this. Last season, Chandler shot 71% from less than 5 feet on 379 attempts. Chandler only attempted 61 shots from 5 feet beyond the basket. From 15 feet out, he shot 41.9%. Thompson's numbers are similar. He shot 61.2% within 5 feet of the basket. His field goal percentage drops into the 30s once he steps outside of 5 feet of the rim. You can't have two players who need to score within 5 feet of the rim to be effective. In the modern NBA it just doesn't work like that. Or, look at Cleveland when they played Thompson and Mozgov together. The offense was stagnant. Cleveland's most effective lineups featured LBJ as a power forward with either Thompson or Mozgov manning the middle, but not both.

[MrMiyagi]

I agree with the last few posters that have praised Brandon Knight as a person. He knows how to present himself well. He is smart, speaks very well, and knows how to let off a positive attitude.
If Brandon Knight could play basketball this season, as well as he conducted himself in the interview, I would be estactic. I wasn't really hating the trade for him, but I am definitely not blown away with him as a player, he has a ton to prove(IMO).
At least he is a likeable guy, and his clumsy ass plays as hard as possible every night. I don't mind tuning in to watch and see where he goes.

I personally think he'll be a better fit next to Bledsoe than Dragic was. He seems more like a shooter who can drive when closed out than a driver who can knock down a 3 when left open.

[Two Time]

I personally think he'll be a better fit next to Bledsoe than Dragic was. He seems more like a shooter who can drive when closed out than a driver who can knock down a 3 when left open.

While we may see that to be correct. I'm not exactly thrilled with that thought, as Dragic was a superior player to Bledsoe. So it should have been Bledsoe that trying to fit next to Dragic.
Alas Dragic is gone no matter my opinion on it, and I am overall pleased with how the Suns have handled the situations they have been put in, and put themselves in, over the last several months.

[saintEscaton]

I personally think he'll be a better fit next to Bledsoe than Dragic was. He seems more like a shooter who can drive when closed out than a driver who can knock down a 3 when left open.

While we may see that to be correct. I'm not exactly thrilled with that thought, as Dragic was a superior player to Bledsoe. So it should have been Bledsoe that trying to fit next to Dragic.
Alas Dragic is gone no matter my opinion on it, and I am overall pleased with how the Suns have handled the situations they have been put in, and put themselves in, over the last several months.

I would have rather us have stayed put after dealing Tragic. Maybe even keep IT, but I get that we wanted to clean house and move on from the failed Three Headed Hydra experiment but this "dual playmaker" system is not all that different. Acquiring BKnight seemed to be more of a last resort knee-jerk move to steady the ship and project the illusion that all is well. Bucks refused to extend him to a long term contract and probably wouldn't have even matched the qualifying offer sheet and we could have bidded for him below the max as an RFA without much competition (maybe the Knicks) since good not great positionless guards are not highly valued. The only benefit of getting him via trade was we owned his Bird's Rights which meant that he only accounted for a $9 million cap hold and can be resigned after exceeding the salary cap

[SSOL]

I personally think he'll be a better fit next to Bledsoe than Dragic was. He seems more like a shooter who can drive when closed out than a driver who can knock down a 3 when left open.

While we may see that to be correct. I'm not exactly thrilled with that thought, as Dragic was a superior player to Bledsoe. So it should have been Bledsoe that trying to fit next to Dragic.
Alas Dragic is gone no matter my opinion on it, and I am overall pleased with how the Suns have handled the situations they have been put in, and put themselves in, over the last several months.

I would have rather us have stayed put after dealing Tragic. Maybe even keep IT, but I get that we wanted to clean house and move on from the failed Three Headed Hydra experiment but this "dual playmaker" system is not all that different. Acquiring BKnight seemed to be more of a last resort knee-jerk move to steady the ship and project the illusion that all is well. Bucks refused to extend him to a long term contract and probably wouldn't have even matched the qualifying offer sheet and we could have bidded for him below the max as an RFA without much competition (maybe the Knicks) since good not great positionless guards are not highly valued. The only benefit of getting him via trade was we owned his Bird's Rights which meant that he only accounted for a $9 million cap hold and can be resigned after exceeding the salary cap

That "only" benefit you speak of is named Tyson Chandler.