Political Roundtable - Part VII

[nate33]

Interesting piece: http://www.vox.com/2015/7/24/9030337/gun-violence-mass-shootings

There are other reasons why the homicide rate in the U.S. is well above those in developed nations. But if I point them out, I get labeled a racist.

So rather than accept the explanation that is the most obvious and is most clearly shown in the facts, you would rather insist on the racist explanation? That N*****s are a bunch of thugs, an inferior race of people who are too stupid not to shoot each other all the time?

Why is that the dominant explanation in your mind Nate?

Because that's what the data shows. There is a much greater statistical correlation between homicide rate and percentage of blacks in the population than there is a correlation between homicide rate and percentage of gun ownership. I'm not positing why. I'm just pointing out the facts. The homicide rate among American whites is in line with that of developed European nations, including those that restrict guns heavily, and those like Switzerland that promote gun ownership.

[fishercob]

There are other reasons why the homicide rate in the U.S. is well above those in developed nations. But if I point them out, I get labeled a racist.

So rather than accept the explanation that is the most obvious and is most clearly shown in the facts, you would rather insist on the racist explanation? That N*****s are a bunch of thugs, an inferior race of people who are too stupid not to shoot each other all the time?

Why is that the dominant explanation in your mind Nate?

Because that's what the data shows. There is a much greater statistical correlation between homicide rate and percentage of blacks in the population than there is a correlation between homicide rate and percentage of gun ownership. I'm not positing why. I'm just pointing out the facts. The homicide rate among American whites is in line with that of developed European nations, including those that restrict guns heavily, and those like Switzerland that promote gun ownership.

So what do you propose? It's not really feasible to give black folks a free ride back to Africa and say "our bad" on the whole slavery thing.

[Zonkerbl]

Well, at least you're honest.

So you're not saying that African Americans are an inferior race that are too stupid not to shoot each other all the time.

You're just saying that's what the data says. So I guess you've done a rigorous econometric analysis and controlled for the various relevant demographic factors like, say, poverty?

[nate33]

Well, at least you're honest.

So you're not saying that African Americans are an inferior race that are too stupid not to shoot each other all the time.

You're just saying that's what the data says. So I guess you've done a rigorous econometric analysis and controlled for the various relevant demographic factors like, say, poverty?

West Virginia is the 2nd poorest state in the nation by median income. It ranks 32nd in homicide rate (i.e. only 18 states are safer). It's homicide rate of 3.0 per 100,000 is only barely above that of Norway (2.2). 3.5% of West Virginia's population is black.

Maryland is the richest state in the nation by median income. It has the 3rd highest murder rate in the nation. It's homicide rate of 7.3 per 100,000 ranks it alongside countries like Pakistan (7.7) and Chad (7.3). Maryland has 3rd highest percentage of blacks in the nation at 29.4%

[nate33]

So rather than accept the explanation that is the most obvious and is most clearly shown in the facts, you would rather insist on the racist explanation? That N*****s are a bunch of thugs, an inferior race of people who are too stupid not to shoot each other all the time?

Why is that the dominant explanation in your mind Nate?

Because that's what the data shows. There is a much greater statistical correlation between homicide rate and percentage of blacks in the population than there is a correlation between homicide rate and percentage of gun ownership. I'm not positing why. I'm just pointing out the facts. The homicide rate among American whites is in line with that of developed European nations, including those that restrict guns heavily, and those like Switzerland that promote gun ownership.

So what do you propose? It's not really feasible to give black folks a free ride back to Africa and say "our bad" on the whole slavery thing.

The first thing I propose is to actually find some concrete data that proves that gun ownership correlates with homicide before we crack down on gun ownership.

As far as these mass shootings go, I read somewhere (don't know if it's true) that virtually all of the major mass shootings involve gunmen who were on psychotropic drugs of some sort (anti-depressants and what not). The truth of the matter may be difficult to dig up, but it's probably something worth exploring.

[crackhed]

Well, at least you're honest.

So you're not saying that African Americans are an inferior race that are too stupid not to shoot each other all the time.

You're just saying that's what the data says. So I guess you've done a rigorous econometric analysis and controlled for the various relevant demographic factors like, say, poverty?

West Virginia is the 2nd poorest state in the nation by median income. It ranks 32nd in homicide rate (i.e. only 18 states are safer). It's homicide rate of 3.0 per 100,000 is only barely above that of Norway (2.2). 3.5% of West Virginia's population is black.

Maryland is the richest state in the nation by median income. It has the 3rd highest murder rate in the nation. It's homicide rate of 7.3 per 100,000 ranks it alongside countries like Pakistan (7.7) and Chad (7.3). Maryland has 3rd highest percentage of blacks in the nation at 29.4%

if the argument is that blacks are the most violent, does the list on the previous page back up that claim?

[Induveca]

Not sure why this is so difficult, dense/urban poverty stricken areas are violent and murder prone all over the world. Regardless of color. Go visit the capitals of Peru, Honduras, Bolivia, Ecuador, Kazakhstan or Thailand.

[dckingsfan]

Maybe. I took it more at face value.

But even if that's what Jim was saying, your response presents a latent contentment with the status quo. "If gun control doesn't work in Chicago, there's no sense in trying it anywhere." As a citizen and a voter, I'm pretty uncomfortable with that. I certainly don't have all the answers, but think something must be done.

When you put these two thoughts together, bad policies generally follow.

And then you have the law of unintended consequences that follow - that is how "tough on crime" started...

[montestewart]

Well, at least you're honest.

So you're not saying that African Americans are an inferior race that are too stupid not to shoot each other all the time.

You're just saying that's what the data says. So I guess you've done a rigorous econometric analysis and controlled for the various relevant demographic factors like, say, poverty?

West Virginia is the 2nd poorest state in the nation by median income. It ranks 32nd in homicide rate (i.e. only 18 states are safer). It's homicide rate of 3.0 per 100,000 is only barely above that of Norway (2.2). 3.5% of West Virginia's population is black.

Maryland is the richest state in the nation by median income. It has the 3rd highest murder rate in the nation. It's homicide rate of 7.3 per 100,000 ranks it alongside countries like Pakistan (7.7) and Chad (7.3). Maryland has 3rd highest percentage of blacks in the nation at 29.4%

if the argument is that blacks are the most violent, does the list on the previous page back up that claim?

Nevada has a murder rate comparable to Maryland, and average income much closer to Maryland than West Virginia, but its Whiteness Index (WI) is closer to that of West Virginia (WV).

Greenland, a country with (I think I heard somewhere) four people of African descent, has a rate of 19.4.

No blacks live on the moon, but in Iron Sky, a black astronaut was killed by a Nazi who stole his iPod.

I think we have all the relevant stats.

[nate33]

West Virginia is the 2nd poorest state in the nation by median income. It ranks 32nd in homicide rate (i.e. only 18 states are safer). It's homicide rate of 3.0 per 100,000 is only barely above that of Norway (2.2). 3.5% of West Virginia's population is black.

Maryland is the richest state in the nation by median income. It has the 3rd highest murder rate in the nation. It's homicide rate of 7.3 per 100,000 ranks it alongside countries like Pakistan (7.7) and Chad (7.3). Maryland has 3rd highest percentage of blacks in the nation at 29.4%

if the argument is that blacks are the most violent, does the list on the previous page back up that claim?

Nevada has a murder rate comparable to Maryland, and average income much closer to Maryland than West Virginia, but its Whiteness Index (WI) is closer to that of West Virginia (WV).

Greenland, a country with (I think I heard somewhere) four people of African descent, has a rate of 19.4.

No blacks live on the moon, but in Iron Sky, a black astronaut was killed by a Nazi who stole his iPod.

I think we have all the relevant stats.

Nevada is just 54% non-Hispanic white. Also, Nevada is probably not a good data point because 2/3rds of the population is Las Vegas, a city catered exclusively to tourism.

Greenland and other extremely northern countries are heavily populated by the Inuit, who have a high homicide and suicide rate.

[montestewart]

if the argument is that blacks are the most violent, does the list on the previous page back up that claim?

Nevada has a murder rate comparable to Maryland, and average income much closer to Maryland than West Virginia, but its Whiteness Index (WI) is closer to that of West Virginia (WV).

Greenland, a country with (I think I heard somewhere) four people of African descent, has a rate of 19.4.

No blacks live on the moon, but in Iron Sky, a black astronaut was killed by a Nazi who stole his iPod.

I think we have all the relevant stats.

Nevada is just 54% non-Hispanic white. Also, Nevada is probably not a good data point because 2/3rds of the population is Las Vegas, a city catered exclusively to tourism.

Greenland and other extremely northern countries are heavily populated by the Inuit, who have a high homicide and suicide rate.

The murders in Moscow are committed by imports from the Stans and Mongolia, crime in Paris: Moroccans, crime in Stockholm: Bosnian Muslims and Gold Coast Africans, and in Apartheid South Africa, virtually all reported crime was committed by blacks. The stats are clear, but sometimes you have to lead a horse to water, or in this case, skin color, the root cause of crime. If we eliminate the white race, only the innately criminal races would be left, and who then would compile and analyze the statistics?

True story, this happened to a friend of mine who was in Las Vegas. Returning to her hotel room, she was the only person on the elevator when a black man with a big dog got on. As soon as the door closed, the black man said, "Down lady." My friend got on her knees and closed her eyes, prepared for the worst, when suddenly the door opened. The black man said, "C'mon lady," but when she opened her eyes, he and the dog were gone. My friend reported the incident to the hotel security. She awoke the next morning to a knock on the door. It was room service, with a huge bouquet of flowers, a gift basket, and a note: "My German Shepard, Lady, and I apologize for the misunderstanding. I hope you enjoy your stay in Las Vegas. Sincerely, Lionel Richie."

See. It just goes to show...

[Induveca]

Monte, no offense to you.....but to your friend WTF? That's just crazy racism. Lady is a very common name for a dog!

Amusing story, but extremely sad.

[Zonkerbl]

Well, at least you're honest.

So you're not saying that African Americans are an inferior race that are too stupid not to shoot each other all the time.

You're just saying that's what the data says. So I guess you've done a rigorous econometric analysis and controlled for the various relevant demographic factors like, say, poverty?

West Virginia is the 2nd poorest state in the nation by median income. It ranks 32nd in homicide rate (i.e. only 18 states are safer). It's homicide rate of 3.0 per 100,000 is only barely above that of Norway (2.2). 3.5% of West Virginia's population is black.

Maryland is the richest state in the nation by median income. It has the 3rd highest murder rate in the nation. It's homicide rate of 7.3 per 100,000 ranks it alongside countries like Pakistan (7.7) and Chad (7.3). Maryland has 3rd highest percentage of blacks in the nation at 29.4%

Sooooo, no. You haven't done a statistically valid study, you've cherry picked a few data points that support your argument.

I hate to turn the conversation in this direction because I started asking why you refuse to accept the obvious answer, which is that we have way too many guns and they should be banned.

I've noticed here in Anacostia that we have a really nice neighborhood but it's poor. But everyone gets along. The problem is then people get moved from the projects into our neighborhood because it's a better environment for them, allegedly, but what ends up happening is they destroy the community that's been created here. You can make the racist narrative true by designing it that way. By never giving neighborhoods like ours in Anacostia a chance to develop a strong community. Keep dumping the dregs of society here and all the racist stories people tell about Anacostia will become true.

It's people like you, Nate, that are responsible for the creation and perpetuation of that narrative. The future of communities like Anacostia are in your hands. You can choose to perpetuate the narrative that white people, coincidentally, find it in their interests to perpetuate, or you can choose to question it.

What I find really objectionable is when I'm talking with people on the Ward 8 discussion page on facebook and they're buying into the same narrative that we white people are feeding to them. That's true mastery over someone right there, when the slaves beg for their chains.

[Induveca]

Zonk, be honest you know you would happily buy this gun:



Steampunk!

[penbeast0]

Interesting piece: http://www.vox.com/2015/7/24/9030337/gun-violence-mass-shootings

There are other reasons why the homicide rate in the U.S. is well above those in developed nations. But if I point them out, I get labeled a racist.

So rather than accept the explanation that is the most obvious and is most clearly shown in the facts, you would rather insist on the racist explanation? That N*****s are a bunch of thugs, an inferior race of people who are too stupid not to shoot each other all the time?

Why is that the dominant explanation in your mind Nate?

Racial inferiority does not follow from the higher degree of violence. Much more likely to be socio-cultural factors related to 200+ years of racism and oppression leading to a culture with higher degrees of anger. SImilarly, rates of alcoholism and rape are appreciably higher among Native Americans than any other group but regress toward similar rates to the general culture for fully assimilation.

The treatment of African Americans and Native Americans are the twin shames of our country's history, significantly worse than the treatment of other non-dominant groups, and it's not a surprise that the cultures that have developed out of these groups have issues that play out in negative ways.

[fishercob]

if the argument is that blacks are the most violent, does the list on the previous page back up that claim?

Nevada has a murder rate comparable to Maryland, and average income much closer to Maryland than West Virginia, but its Whiteness Index (WI) is closer to that of West Virginia (WV).

Greenland, a country with (I think I heard somewhere) four people of African descent, has a rate of 19.4.

No blacks live on the moon, but in Iron Sky, a black astronaut was killed by a Nazi who stole his iPod.

I think we have all the relevant stats.

Nevada is just 54% non-Hispanic white. Also, Nevada is probably not a good data point because 2/3rds of the population is Las Vegas, a city catered exclusively to tourism.

Greenland and other extremely northern countries are heavily populated by the Inuit, who have a high homicide and suicide rate.

So what's your thesis here?

[Zonkerbl]

Zonk, be honest you know you would happily buy this gun:



Steampunk!

You think that's awesome, check out this baby:



http://www.ironantlerforge.com/gallery/robots-rayguns/

[popper]

There are other reasons why the homicide rate in the U.S. is well above those in developed nations. But if I point them out, I get labeled a racist.

So rather than accept the explanation that is the most obvious and is most clearly shown in the facts, you would rather insist on the racist explanation? That N*****s are a bunch of thugs, an inferior race of people who are too stupid not to shoot each other all the time?

Why is that the dominant explanation in your mind Nate?

Racial inferiority does not follow from the higher degree of violence. Much more likely to be socio-cultural factors related to 200+ years of racism and oppression leading to a culture with higher degrees of anger. SImilarly, rates of alcoholism and rape are appreciably higher among Native Americans than any other group but regress toward similar rates to the general culture for fully assimilation.

The treatment of African Americans and Native Americans are the twin shames of our country's history, significantly worse than the treatment of other non-dominant groups, and it's not a surprise that the cultures that have developed out of these groups have issues that play out in negative ways.

Agreed. Now please comment on the origin of the great successes and triumphs of the twin AA and NA cultures in America. What aspects of American culture/belief traditions facilitated their rapid rise into the highest echelons of business, govt. and society?

[penbeast0]

Individuals in a country that provides opportunity can transcend their roots. Thus from any culture in America can come greatness; this is a country that allows and indeed celebrates the individual.

My great-grandfather came off the reservation to practice law and seat on the ICC. His son became a naval captain (brevetted Rear Admiral) and professor at one of America's great universities. For me it came easily but I just wish I had had the chance to talk to them and hear their life stories.

[popper]

Individuals in a country that provides opportunity can transcend their roots. Thus from any culture in America can come greatness; this is a country that allows and indeed celebrates the individual.

My great-grandfather came off the reservation to practice law and seat on the ICC. His son became a naval captain (brevetted Rear Admiral) and professor at one of America's great universities. For me it came easily but I just wish I had had the chance to talk to them and hear their life stories.

Bravo. The intestinal fortitude, hard work, courage and patriotism your forefathers had, combined with the opportunities the founders embedded in the constitution, gives Americans of all stripes hope for a bright future.

I doubt your ancestors would surrender when radical community organizers informed them that white privilege, income inequality, racism, etc. etc. etc., blah blah blah, forecloses all opportunity for progress.

Edit - it's not only the community organizer that's to blame. Ted Cruz accurately called out the R Senate leader as a liar as well. Americans are too ignorant to choose their leaders. Maybe a "Philosopher King" is the best option given our collective stupidity.