Suns Offseason Thread 4: Where's Terrence Williams?

AtheJ415 · Post #761 » by **AtheJ415** » Sat Jul 25, 2015 6:14 pm

Kieff's mid range shot is literally top 2 in the NBA. It's not "pretty good". He's better at that than anything Gasol does. If Kieff is just pretty good in the mid-range, then Gasol is pretty good at nothing.

bigfoot · Post #762 » by **bigfoot** » Sat Jul 25, 2015 6:19 pm

BobbieL wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
SideSwipe wrote:
To attract FA's that make a difference we have to be relevant. That's what has changed over the years. Weather and quality of living are great, but a team that has little prospect of winning will have a tough time attracting FA's. Gasol can help us win now, fits in well with his skillset and brings championship experience. Give me that for 2-3 years while the other young guys come along and we have the beginning of another long run in the playoffs.

I think Gasol is great, but with our team right now, we need a PF who can hit the 3. We have floor spacing problems that I hope we have addressed to some extent, but we would have no chance in the west with Pau on OUR team.

Markieff isn't a great at the three ball. His brother was better. Markieff was pretty good with that mid range shot -.

If Markieff doesn't want to be in Phoenix, I like the move. Gasol still has pretty good moves and he can pass and probably has a better low post game than Markieff. Moving Tucker also opens up a spot for Warren and the Suns would then go find another small forward I would guess to replace Tucker (and that wouldn't be hard if the plays like he did last year).

I know its just a good idea trade with probably little basis for happening but especially if Markieff doesn't want to be in Phoenix, would like it.

Is Pau even on the market? Is there rumors of the Bulls putting Pau on the market?

Yeah I would take Pau in a heartbeat for Kief. Way better rebounder and gets nearly 2 blocks per game. We'd be a playoff team for sure. He has a player option next year that he would probably exercise giving us more cap space to go after the big name guys.

AtheJ415 · Post #763 » by **AtheJ415** » Sat Jul 25, 2015 6:21 pm

SideSwipe wrote:
AtheJ415 wrote:
SideSwipe wrote:
To attract FA's that make a difference we have to be relevant. That's what has changed over the years. Weather and quality of living are great, but a team that has little prospect of winning will have a tough time attracting FA's. Gasol can help us win now, fits in well with his skillset and brings championship experience. Give me that for 2-3 years while the other young guys come along and we have the beginning of another long run in the playoffs.

Our team's chances of winning over a future FA's time with the team is enhanced with Markieff at PF moreso than Gasol. Their respective ages matter a lot in this regard.

The only thing Gasol provides for us going forward is a bigger name. You don't half-ass a rebuild by giving up to go "relevant" by trading the young guys who are proven for over the hill vets. That's literally the worst thing we could do. I'd be almost as open to Joe Johnson.

Pau is not just a bigger name, he's a proven performer that scores better than Markieff, rebounds better than Markieff and passes better than Markieff. Winning means capitalizing on wins sooner rather than later. Unless Kieff takes a big jump, he will not match what Gasol does for the next two years. McDonough's reference to tall lean players able to play basketball longer applies to Gasol. Also Gasol hit the three ball at a .462 rate last year

Pau is a barely better scorer than Kieff and is a decade older. Also, Kieff is a very good passer on his own right. Gasol may be better, but again he's a decade older. How long do you really think Pau will play before he drops off? In fact, his numbers overall were beginning to decline before his move to the eastern conference. I'll take the player who isn't much worse at 25 over the 35 year old every day in every situation. Pau's great, but do you think FA's are stupid? That guys like Durant and Horford are going to walk in next year and consider signing up for Phoenix to team up with a 36 year old Pau Gasol? Did people try to come to Phoenix when we had an aging Shaq? Not to mention Horford is the most realistic target for us next offseason and we'd be committing ourselves to someone playing the same position.

AtheJ415 · Post #764 » by **AtheJ415** » Sat Jul 25, 2015 6:24 pm

I'm fine trading Kieff, but I fail to see everyone's desire to grab people on the wrong side of 30. Hell, half these guys are closer to 40 than 30.

Our core is 18-26. You want to add talented guys in that age range, or at least 27-29 so that they can still be somewhat relevant when we are in our prime as a team.

bigfoot · Post #765 » by **bigfoot** » Sat Jul 25, 2015 6:25 pm

AtheJ415 wrote:Kieff's mid range shot is literally top 2 in the NBA. It's not "pretty good". He's better at that than anything Gasol does. If Kieff is just pretty good in the mid-range, then Gasol is pretty good at nothing.

.436 from 3 to 10 feet is not really that good since a quarter of his shots come from that distance. He actually shoots .504 from 10-16 feet. His true shooting percentage was .523 last year. Gasol's was .550. Pau is far, far superior to Kief at most everything. Pulled down over 11 rbds per and 2 blks compared to 6 and 0.5 for Kief. Gasol was an all-star last year. Not even a close comparison.

Frank Lee · Post #766 » by **Frank Lee** » Sat Jul 25, 2015 6:27 pm

SideSwipe wrote:
AtheJ415 wrote:
SideSwipe wrote:
To attract FA's that make a difference we have to be relevant. That's what has changed over the years. Weather and quality of living are great, but a team that has little prospect of winning will have a tough time attracting FA's. Gasol can help us win now, fits in well with his skillset and brings championship experience. Give me that for 2-3 years while the other young guys come along and we have the beginning of another long run in the playoffs.

Our team's chances of winning over a future FA's time with the team is enhanced with Markieff at PF moreso than Gasol. Their respective ages matter a lot in this regard.

The only thing Gasol provides for us going forward is a bigger name. You don't half-ass a rebuild by giving up to go "relevant" by trading the young guys who are proven for over the hill vets. That's literally the worst thing we could do. I'd be almost as open to Joe Johnson.

Pau is not just a bigger name, he's a proven performer that scores better than Markieff, rebounds better than Markieff and passes better than Markieff. Winning means capitalizing on wins sooner rather than later. Unless Kieff takes a big jump, he will not match what Gasol does for the next two years. McDonough's reference to tall lean players able to play basketball longer applies to Gasol. Also Gasol hit the three ball at a .462 rate last year

Silly debate as there is little reason Chicago makes a deal. The Bulls will need Gasol to play C, especially with Noah's health as of late. I can see those here who covet Pao, but see little incentive for the Bulls to want KeifMo.

I don't see any reason to move Keif unless he is the one requesting an exit. And that could be possible. Would be good to hear a positive comment from the disgruntled diva.... but I don't expect that either. I anticipate a quiet stoic return along with a back room request for transfer.

bigfoot · Post #767 » by **bigfoot** » Sat Jul 25, 2015 6:29 pm

AtheJ415 wrote:I'm fine trading Kieff, but I fail to see everyone's desire to grab people on the wrong side of 30. Hell, half these guys are closer to 40 than 30.

Our core is 18-26. You want to add talented guys in that age range, or at least 27-29 so that they can still be somewhat relevant when we are in our prime as a team.

I'd much rather have a productive 35 year old than Kief who by all appearance is a disgruntled baby who bad mouths the fans and probably doesn't want to really play for the Suns. If we were talking about a different 26 year old who didn't have major problems I'd agree with you about keeping him.

BobbieL · Post #768 » by **BobbieL** » Sat Jul 25, 2015 6:39 pm

Frank Lee wrote:
SideSwipe wrote:
AtheJ415 wrote:
Our team's chances of winning over a future FA's time with the team is enhanced with Markieff at PF moreso than Gasol. Their respective ages matter a lot in this regard.

The only thing Gasol provides for us going forward is a bigger name. You don't half-ass a rebuild by giving up to go "relevant" by trading the young guys who are proven for over the hill vets. That's literally the worst thing we could do. I'd be almost as open to Joe Johnson.

Pau is not just a bigger name, he's a proven performer that scores better than Markieff, rebounds better than Markieff and passes better than Markieff. Winning means capitalizing on wins sooner rather than later. Unless Kieff takes a big jump, he will not match what Gasol does for the next two years. McDonough's reference to tall lean players able to play basketball longer applies to Gasol. Also Gasol hit the three ball at a .462 rate last year

Silly debate as there is little reason Chicago makes a deal. The Bulls will need Gasol to play C, especially with Noah's health as of late. I can see those here who covet Pao, but see little incentive for the Bulls to want KeifMo.

I don't see any reason to move Keif unless he is the one requesting an exit. And that could be possible. Would be good to hear a positive comment from the disgruntled diva.... but I don't expect that either. I anticipate a quiet stoic return along with a back room request for transfer.

In a nutshell. First, as stated, Chicago probably is not moving Pau. Second, unless Kieff wants to go - he is a pretty darn good player. Granted, the rebounds can go up and some attitude andT's can go down. But, I actually think if Kieff is on board, he will be a very good player that should get better. If he wants to go, say it now and see if Ryan McD can make a move. Last thing this team needs is more drama and for him to not be on board. If he is on board, I expect a very good year from him.

BUT, if Markieff wants to go and this was the result of a trade - Pau Gasol - that wouldn't be bad.

LukasBMW · Post #769 » by **LukasBMW** » Sat Jul 25, 2015 6:54 pm

If Keef decides he wants to bring it, he will be a major asset.

Long term I hope we don't go full "small ball" or SSOL.

I want us to try SSOS (Seven Seconds or Shaq) but we need to replace Shaq with a younger center who has a post game and is a defensive stopper.

AtheJ415 · Post #770 » by **AtheJ415** » Sat Jul 25, 2015 7:20 pm

bigfoot wrote:
AtheJ415 wrote:I'm fine trading Kieff, but I fail to see everyone's desire to grab people on the wrong side of 30. Hell, half these guys are closer to 40 than 30.

Our core is 18-26. You want to add talented guys in that age range, or at least 27-29 so that they can still be somewhat relevant when we are in our prime as a team.

I'd much rather have a productive 35 year old than Kief who by all appearance is a disgruntled baby who bad mouths the fans and probably doesn't want to really play for the Suns. If we were talking about a different 26 year old who didn't have major problems I'd agree with you about keeping him.

Wow. Awesome. Let's trade a proven 25 year old on a great deal based on your own conjecture.

AtheJ415 · Post #771 » by **AtheJ415** » Sat Jul 25, 2015 7:20 pm

bigfoot wrote:
AtheJ415 wrote:Kieff's mid range shot is literally top 2 in the NBA. It's not "pretty good". He's better at that than anything Gasol does. If Kieff is just pretty good in the mid-range, then Gasol is pretty good at nothing.

.436 from 3 to 10 feet is not really that good since a quarter of his shots come from that distance. He actually shoots .504 from 10-16 feet. His true shooting percentage was .523 last year. Gasol's was .550. Pau is far, far superior to Kief at most everything. Pulled down over 11 rbds per and 2 blks compared to 6 and 0.5 for Kief. Gasol was an all-star last year. Not even a close comparison.

Since when is 3-10 feet mid-range?

Jdiddy701 · Post #772 » by **Jdiddy701** » Sat Jul 25, 2015 7:21 pm

I can't wait for Keef to shut everyone up. A lot of people need to realize Marcus was the crazy one. Also, I've said before the season ended, Suns are not trading Markieff Morris.. That's Robert Sarver's favorite Sun. Unless they get an allstar back, Keef is here to stay for a very long time. Sarver actually agreed with what Keef said about the fans but couldn't say it publicly of course.

Keef's more of a professional than you guys think. He's all about the team, and winning. Has he made mistakes? Sure. Give him another chance.

Personally, I think Keef said what we all want to say about Suns fans. Boring and quiet in the arena. The game before vs the Thunder, fans were so bad and it was an entertaining game. He should have kept it to himself but oh well.

Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

AtheJ415 · Post #773 » by **AtheJ415** » Sat Jul 25, 2015 7:21 pm

While we're at it, why don't we trade Brandon Knight for Kobe? He's a decade older and a bigger name, and would've made the all-star team if healthy. Who's with me?

AtheJ415 · Post #774 » by **AtheJ415** » Sat Jul 25, 2015 7:26 pm

Maybe Bledsoe for Joe Johnson.

PG--Kobe
SG--Joe Johnson
SF--Paul Pierce
PF--Pau Gasol
C--Tyson

We can get a team discount on old-person stuff too.
And see, this team would be awesome for a year, and probably super professional with no off the court issues. Then reality sets in, and you've traded your entire team for a better shot at making the playoffs in the short term with no shot of winning a title in the long-run.

Frank Lee · Post #775 » by **Frank Lee** » Sat Jul 25, 2015 8:04 pm

You KeifKeepers conveniently ignore his past behavior and have packed all his problems into his brother's bags.

To assume Keif is the good twin and his bad behavior was MarCusser's doing is homery optimism. And to think he does not share some of the same, if not all of the same attitudes towards Phoenix sidesteps their two-for-one-headed history.

Go ahead and defend him, but at least acknowledge the valid chance that HE might not want to play here. There is more circumstantial evidence to lead to that conclusion than what you guys are trumpeting. Yes, circumstantial, but isn't there an argument that these two Bone-Headed Clone-Headed Bros think and act alike ? They could be the basis for a creepy Psych paper.

Do you not think Keif supported every word CusMo said ? He wasn't there fanning the flame was he ? Or was he ? It has already been verified he was angry and in Detroit..... BTW, I'd be in Detroit too over the swelter that is Phnx...

The reckoning comes as camp draws near. Patch up or pack up Keif.

AtheJ415 · Post #776 » by **AtheJ415** » Sat Jul 25, 2015 8:17 pm

Frank Lee wrote:You KeifKeepers conveniently ignore his past behavior and have packed all his problems into his brother's bags.

To assume Keif is the good twin and his bad behavior was MarCusser's doing is homery optimism. And to think he does not share some of the same, if not all of the same attitudes towards Phoenix sidesteps their two-for-one-headed history.

Go ahead and defend him, but at least acknowledge the valid chance that HE might not want to play here. There is more circumstantial evidence to lead to that conclusion than what you guys are trumpeting. Yes, circumstantial, but isn't there an argument that these two Bone-Headed Clone-Headed Bros think and act alike ? They could be the basis for a creepy Psych paper.

Do you not think Keif supported every word CusMo said ? He wasn't there fanning the flame was he ? Or was he ? It has already been verified he was angry and in Detroit..... BTW, I'd be in Detroit too over the swelter that is Phnx...

The reckoning comes as camp draws near. Patch up or pack up Keif.

Whether Kieff wants to play here or not is immaterial. We have his rights for 5 years, and no incentive or reason to trade him for anyone who doesn't help our core grow. Dumping him for 35 year olds who aren't MVP candidates is as stupid as the Morris twins' behavior. Our trainers are good but they don't have the fountain of youth. You GoneWithKieffers seem to think 25 year olds can't improve and that anyone who can grab a rebound, no matter how old, is somehow an upgrade.

kennydorglas · Post #777 » by **kennydorglas** » Sat Jul 25, 2015 8:30 pm

Kieff is a decent role player who really doesnt fit with our offense (long 2 dominant, terrible slow release when 'trying' to stretch the floor, crappy rebounder)... pretty much what Carl Landry was three~four years ago.

He's better suited in a super-sub role...
We really need to find this starting 4. It's not Kieff at all.

TeamTragic · Post #778 » by **TeamTragic** » Sat Jul 25, 2015 9:00 pm

AtheJ415 wrote:Maybe Bledsoe for Joe Johnson.

PG--Kobe
SG--Joe Johnson
SF--Paul Pierce
PF--Pau Gasol
C--Tyson

We can get a team discount on old-person stuff too.
And see, this team would be awesome for a year, and probably super professional with no off the court issues. Then reality sets in, and you've traded your entire team for a better shot at making the playoffs in the short term with no shot of winning a title in the long-run.

Are we aiming for the oldest team that will win the least games? That is assuming they can all stay on the court besides Tyson :lol:

AtheJ415 · Post #779 » by **AtheJ415** » Sat Jul 25, 2015 9:03 pm

GoranTragic wrote:
AtheJ415 wrote:Maybe Bledsoe for Joe Johnson.

PG--Kobe
SG--Joe Johnson
SF--Paul Pierce
PF--Pau Gasol
C--Tyson

We can get a team discount on old-person stuff too.
And see, this team would be awesome for a year, and probably super professional with no off the court issues. Then reality sets in, and you've traded your entire team for a better shot at making the playoffs in the short term with no shot of winning a title in the long-run.

Are we aiming for the oldest team that will win the least games? That is assuming they can all stay on the court besides Tyson

But they aren't twins, smile on the court, and say good things in public. #Priorities.

saintEscaton · Post #780 » by **saintEscaton** » Sat Jul 25, 2015 9:49 pm

This is the most uneventful part of the offseason as evidenced by the dearth of quality discussion topics. Posts that can more accurately be summed as "I'd rather take my guy. We chose the right twin." Kieff shouldn't be given the time of day. He is what he is. If youth automatically correlates with an upward career trajectory and a sky high ceiling I'd still take every starting calibre PF over him in a heartbeat no matter the age