Political Roundtable - Part VII

[penbeast0]

sure, if we could magically be sure that we picked a man both deeply good and brilliant. Of course, if we could do that, politicians wouldn't have the reputation that they do. I do think the parliamentary system of having the majority party pick it's leader (prime minister) has some advantages both in that the party members who have worked with these men over time have a better knowledge of them. However, that might make government more capable of passing bills and considering their track record, I'm not sure that's a good thing. Gridlock except on the rare subject with bipartisan support (other than voting themselves benefits) might be the best of a number of bad choices.

[Zonkerbl]

[dobrojim]

Science has clearly proven that race is an artificial construct. You cannot clearly define where one
race ends and the next one begins. And as I have stated previously, to the extent that you can define
race, there is more variation within a race than there is between any given 2 races. We're all people!

Therefore looking at problems and trying to ascertain a racial component is doomed
to lead to unhelpful 'answers'.

And yes, I would prefer my statements be taken at face value.

[pineappleheadindc]

The Fox News Republican debate is next Thursday already. Because Donald Trump has made the top 10 nationally, he'll be a participant and that alone will draw huge ratings. I wonder if Fox News will outdraw some network entertainment programming with the audience size? I wouldn't be surprised.

A few disjointed and random thoughts:

1. Say what you will about him, I give him credit for putting himself out there. He's working hard to get the nomination, he's campaigning a lot. He'll say what he thinks (for better or worse).

2. For the more establishment candidates in the field, the big audience represents opportunity. Jeb seems to have stalled momentum-wise. I've heard Chris Christie speak in long-form on C-SPAN and when he's not sound byted, he can deliver great speeches. I'm sorry that Kasich won't make the stage...he's a great general election candidate for the GOP.

3. For Republican candidates who have been, in the past, on the furthest right flank in terms of policy positions and how they express themselves (Cruz, Caine), I wonder how they'll formulate a plan to essentially out-Trump Trump.

4. My pre-debate winner guess will be Scott Walker and Donald Trump in a tie.

5. We should do a live reaction event on this thread with everyone who's watching reacting in real time. Just a thought.

[popper]

The Fox News Republican debate is next Thursday already. Because Donald Trump has made the top 10 nationally, he'll be a participant and that alone will draw huge ratings. I wonder if Fox News will outdraw some network entertainment programming with the audience size? I wouldn't be surprised.

A few disjointed and random thoughts:

1. Say what you will about him, I give him credit for putting himself out there. He's working hard to get the nomination, he's campaigning a lot. He'll say what he thinks (for better or worse).

2. For the more establishment candidates in the field, the big audience represents opportunity. Jeb seems to have stalled momentum-wise. I've heard Chris Christie speak in long-form on C-SPAN and when he's not sound byted, he can deliver great speeches. I'm sorry that Kasich won't make the stage...he's a great general election candidate for the GOP.

3. For Republican candidates who have been, in the past, on the furthest right flank in terms of policy positions and how they express themselves (Cruz, Caine), I wonder how they'll formulate a plan to essentially out-Trump Trump.

4. My pre-debate winner guess will be Scott Walker and Donald Trump in a tie.

5. We should do a live reaction event on this thread with everyone who's watching reacting in real time. Just a thought.

Good observations IMO. It's going to be a very entertaining and important primary and general election (on both sides). The one constant and depressing reality is that if our country is unable to reestablish some semblance of spirituality, integrity and courage in our civic affairs then we will surely become just another footnote in the histories of failed civilizations.

Edit - I think I read recently that Trump doesn't ever remember asking God for forgiveness. Bad sign IMO.

[DCZards]

So what do you propose? It's not really feasible to give black folks a free ride back to Africa and say "our bad" on the whole slavery thing.

Most black folks aren't interested in going back to Africa. We've given too much blood, sweat and tears to the building of this country. I have traced my ancestry in the U.S. back to the 1700s, which I suspect is a lot further back than most posters here can claim. But it would be nice to finally get those so-called reparations...you know that 40 acres and a mule that my ancestors were promised.

Of course, I'd like have it by today's standards.

[DCZards]

Monte, no offense to you.....but to your friend WTF? That's just crazy racism. Lady is a very common name for a dog!

Amusing story, but extremely sad.

Not only is it a common name for a dog...."Lady" is also the name of one of Lionel Richie's biggest hits.

[Induveca]

So what do you propose? It's not really feasible to give black folks a free ride back to Africa and say "our bad" on the whole slavery thing.

Most black folks aren't interested in going back to Africa. We've given too much blood, sweat and tears to the building of this country. I have traced my ancestry in the U.S. back to the 1700s, which I suspect is a lot further back than most posters here can claim. But it would be nice to finally get those so-called reparations...you know that 40 acres and a mule that my ancestors were promised.

Of course, I'd like have it by today's standards.

Hope the reparations request were in a green font.

[DCZards]

Edit - I think I read recently that Trump doesn't ever remember asking God for forgiveness. Bad sign IMO.

Yeah, Trump told CNN that he doesn't have to ask God for forgiveness because he avoids doing anything that he has to be forgiven for. I sure hope "The Donald" stays in the race. He's the best thing that the Dems have going for them.

[DCZards]

So what do you propose? It's not really feasible to give black folks a free ride back to Africa and say "our bad" on the whole slavery thing.

Most black folks aren't interested in going back to Africa. We've given too much blood, sweat and tears to the building of this country. I have traced my ancestry in the U.S. back to the 1700s, which I suspect is a lot further back than most posters here can claim. But it would be nice to finally get those so-called reparations...you know that 40 acres and a mule that my ancestors were promised.

Of course, I'd like have it by today's standards.

Hope the reparations request were in a green font.

Not on your life. Reparations were given to the Japanese who were interned during WWII.

[pineappleheadindc]

Most black folks aren't interested in going back to Africa. We've given too much blood, sweat and tears to the building of this country. I have traced my ancestry in the U.S. back to the 1700s, which I suspect is a lot further back than most posters here can claim. But it would be nice to finally get those so-called reparations...you know that 40 acres and a mule that my ancestors were promised.

Of course, I'd like have it by today's standards.

Hope the reparations request were in a green font.

Not on your life. Reparations were given to the Japanese who were interned during WWII.

DCZards beat me to it, b/c I was going to post the exact same thing. Except for one (potentially) surprising historical footnote. The President who provided the reparations and formal U.S. Government apology: Ronald Reagan. (Would you, dear reader, have guessed it was Reagan? He was not the characture that both conservatives and liberals portray him as in contemporary times. Pretty layered guy.)

And a small clarification to DCZards post -- Reagan gave reparations to Japanese-Americans, not Japanese citizens. I'm absolutely certain that it's what DCZards meant, but I didn't want anyone mis-reading his intent or historical fact.

[Induveca]

Just my feeling, I was born in the 1970s not 1840s. I am too proud to take unemployment, let alone a handout for my great great great grandparents. Although it could be argued slavery has never ended in Hispaniola.

I guess I could lobby Spain? Or France? Both maybe? But then they'd owe reparations for 85% of South America.

Bah, I'll just keep educating myself and make money.....and teach my kid to do the same.

[TGW]

So what do you propose? It's not really feasible to give black folks a free ride back to Africa and say "our bad" on the whole slavery thing.

Most black folks aren't interested in going back to Africa. We've given too much blood, sweat and tears to the building of this country. I have traced my ancestry in the U.S. back to the 1700s, which I suspect is a lot further back than most posters here can claim. But it would be nice to finally get those so-called reparations...you know that 40 acres and a mule that my ancestors were promised.

Of course, I'd like have it by today's standards.

Hope the reparations request were in a green font.

Why? It's not like the U.S. never doled out reparations before. Reagan gave $1.8 billion dollars to Japanese internment camp survivors. I would venture to say the African American experience has been MUCH worse than whatever Japanese people went through in this country.

EDIT: Pine beat me to it.

[montestewart]

Monte, no offense to you.....but to your friend WTF? That's just crazy racism. Lady is a very common name for a dog!

Amusing story, but extremely sad.

Not only is it a common name for a dog...."Lady" is also the name of one of Lionel Richie's biggest hits.

Sorry, I thought green font would undermine the intended comment on assumptions about race, but I guess it just crashed and burned. It's a variation of an urban myth, variously told about MJ, Eddie Murphy, etc.
http://www.snopes.com/racial/mistaken/hitfloor.asp

[Induveca]

Most black folks aren't interested in going back to Africa. We've given too much blood, sweat and tears to the building of this country. I have traced my ancestry in the U.S. back to the 1700s, which I suspect is a lot further back than most posters here can claim. But it would be nice to finally get those so-called reparations...you know that 40 acres and a mule that my ancestors were promised.

Of course, I'd like have it by today's standards.

Hope the reparations request were in a green font.

Why? It's not like the U.S. never doled out reparations before. Reagan gave $1.8 billion dollars to Japanese internment camp survivors. I would venture to say the African American experience has been MUCH worse than whatever Japanese people went through in this country.

EDIT: Pine beat me to it.

Most of those people actually experienced the internment though? I'm not collecting money for a horrible wrong which originally befell my family in the 1800s.

[TGW]

Hope the reparations request were in a green font.

Why? It's not like the U.S. never doled out reparations before. Reagan gave $1.8 billion dollars to Japanese internment camp survivors. I would venture to say the African American experience has been MUCH worse than whatever Japanese people went through in this country.

EDIT: Pine beat me to it.

Most of those people actually experienced the internment though? I'm not collecting money for a horrible wrong which originally befell my family in the 1800s.

You really think slavery ended in the 1800's?

I think you should research U.S. history and little more and revisit this topic once you do.

[DCZards]

Most of those people actually experienced the internment though? I'm not collecting money for a horrible wrong which originally befell my family in the 1800s.

The passage of time is insignificant...especially when the vestiges of slavery, and the racism, family separation and denigration of a peoples' culture and humanity that it perpetuated, continues to have a deleterious effect on the sons and daughters of those enslaved.

Edit to add: The internment of Japanese-Americans lasted four years. The enslavement of African-Americans lasted more than 200 years, followed by almost 100 years of Jim Crow laws.

[TGW]

And just to add:

My fiance's Dad (who's AA), who just turned 70, told me how when he was in the Navy, black seamen weren't allowed to be anything but cooks and janitors on the ship. He said one day, while mopping the floors on the ship, he stumbled onto a print and production room where all the ship's documents were produced. He looked around and was fascinated with the press and print machines, and while he was checking the machines out, the seamen working in the production room told him to get his [expletive] ass out.

The next day he asked his superior to work in the production room. By Navy law, he was allowed to test for it. Shockingly [insert green front here], his test got lost not once, not twice, but THREE TIMES. He ended up being discharged from the military some 10 years later, and worked for the AARP as their main Production Manager at the corporate offices in DC.

He also told me how he was denied a HUD loan, although he was eligible for one through the military.

Now is that deserving of reparations? Maybe, maybe not. But he was clearly stunted from reaching his potential. I think it would be fair to say that my fiance's father's experience wasn't out of the ordinary at the time.

[Zonkerbl]

And just to add:

My fiance's Dad (who's AA), who just turned 70, told me how when he was in the Navy, black seamen weren't allowed to be anything but cooks and janitors on the ship. He said one day, while mopping the floors on the ship, he stumbled onto a print and production room where all the ship's documents were produced. He looked around and was fascinated with the press and print machines, and while he was checking the machines out, the seamen working in the production room told him to get his [expletive] ass out.

The next day he asked his superior to work in the production room. By Navy law, he was allowed to test for it. Shockingly [insert green front here], his test got lost not once, not twice, but THREE TIMES. He ended up being discharged from the military some 10 years later, and worked for the AARP as their main Production Manager at the corporate offices in DC.

He also told me how he was denied a HUD loan, although he was eligible for one through the military.

Now is that deserving of reparations? Maybe, maybe not. But he was clearly stunted from reaching his potential. I think it would be fair to say that my fiance's father's experience wasn't out of the ordinary at the time.

TGW, you're SO NAIVE. Obviously your soon to be father in law was simply a member of an inferior race whose test scores would have failed regardless. The helper whities were just trying to soften the blow.

[nate33]

Hope the reparations request were in a green font.

Why? It's not like the U.S. never doled out reparations before. Reagan gave $1.8 billion dollars to Japanese internment camp survivors. I would venture to say the African American experience has been MUCH worse than whatever Japanese people went through in this country.

EDIT: Pine beat me to it.

Most of those people actually experienced the internment though? I'm not collecting money for a horrible wrong which originally befell my family in the 1800s.

You are, or course, correct in your assessment that reparations is completely unworkable, but that's not going to change anyone's minds. There are no former slaveholders currently alive, and there are no American slaves currently alive. There aren't even any children of slaveholders or slaves currently alive. There is no way to define who is responsible to pay for reparations because most America were never slaveholders. There were also African American slaveholders. How does that work into the equation?

Slavery has been around since the dawn of history and has been practices by most societies. It has been the norm for all time except the past 200 years. The irony is that it was White European ethics that inspired the repudiation of slavery in the modern era. If not for that mindset, there would still still be slaves in America today. Indeed, there is slavery today everywhere except in those nations that are culturally European (plus the Japanese and Koreans).