Chuck Texas & PMOTT3's Early Off-Season Review: Milwaukee Bucks

[bondom34]

All:

I just want to say a quick thing here. I have zilch to do with these reviews, and I haven't 100 percent agreed with them. That said, the 2 guys doing them have absolutely zero agenda and haven't shown one at all. They've done work on these things and are giving honest opinions. If they don't like a team's offseason, its not a big deal. It just isn't (sorry guys, you aren't quite that important to decide the future ). Please take any criticisms of any team not as a big deal, but just how someone feels a team did in the offseason. We can disagree, but please, try to do so in a civil fashion. I wasn't in complete agreement w/ everyone on the Thunder's offseason, but tried to stay on point and civil, and just glancing through this thread, it went to hell somewhere along the way.

[Bernman]

I have a HUGE problem with the fa critique. Are you serious? The Bucks got better than fair market value for Monroe and Middleton. Many projected Middleton to get the max, but he got below it. And Monroe was a steal from big market franchises. Monroe will be FAR better now that he's away from Drummond. He had a 22 PER when he was 21 and in his second season before Drummond arrived. Normally you improve after that point. Monroe declined, but you could see how much it was Drummond from the splits. Last year Monroe averaged 20+ (59+ ts%), and 13+ rebs per 36 when Drummond wasn't on the floor (1,000 minute sample or something like that). Plus, his on/off defensive #'s were well into the positive. Kidd is known for hiding the defensive weaknesses for centers anyway. And Monroe is an excellent passer to boot. That was very smart business by the Bucks. They got a potential diamond in the rough star in fa.

The rest I think is fair, outside the d grade and 2nd record prediction. As was aforementioned, the bench was partially the reason for the slide. But they still have time to tweak and it's not hard if they're motivated. They have the pieces to upgrade the bench quite swiftly. It's not like being weak in the starting lineup. MCW was the other part of the problem. He's still there, and if anything the spacing issues should be aggravated now that Monroe is around. It's going to be better than it was personally for him than in Detroit because the shooting of the pf is more important for getting opposing bigs off him, and Giannis projects to shoot A LOT better than Drummond, especially with one offseason to get rep on his shot considering his work ethic and he had to adjust to a growth spurt last season. But opposing defenders are going to keep sagging off MCW, and it's going to be a problem. So is his over-handling. But if it's too much of a problem, signs are he'll be gone at the trade deadline. They aren't exactly married to him. Reportedly they tried to use him in a package to get Mudiay during the draft. The Bucks should surge the 2nd half this year actually with the Parker return and acquiring a better pg fit if they need it. It shouldn't be hard to gain one because they don't need much from that position considering their surrounding talent. 45 wins seems about right. 48 is on the optimistic side, 39 is the lowest projection I've seen.

[Knosh]

The reason the grade isn't better is because they could have done all the moves I liked AND still kept Dudley and Zaza. Yes I know Dudley will miss some time and yes I understand both guys are nothing more than solid role players. But solid role players are really nice to have to get through 82 games where guys are going to get hurt and miss games and nice to have some guys with lots of playoff experience to call on in a big moment in a playoff game.

So I really like the team. I was baffled by the overpay on Grevis and just giving away 2 good players for free when they just didn't need to. So the grade reflects that.

Don't really feel like reading everything here right now, so idk if someone already mentioned this, but regarding the Dudley and Zaza trades: Dudley was on Zach Lowe's podcast a few days ago (http://espn.go.com/espnradio/grantland/player?id=13309078) and talked about it from about 10:00. He's basically saying that he wanted to go to the Wizards and the trade was the Bucks doing him a favor for being a pro in his time there and implies that the Zaza trade was the same thing.

[nickhx2]

All:

I just want to say a quick thing here. I have zilch to do with these reviews, and I haven't 100 percent agreed with them. That said, the 2 guys doing them have absolutely zero agenda and haven't shown one at all. They've done work on these things and are giving honest opinions. If they don't like a team's offseason, its not a big deal. It just isn't (sorry guys, you aren't quite that important to decide the future ). Please take any criticisms of any team not as a big deal, but just how someone feels a team did in the offseason. We can disagree, but please, try to do so in a civil fashion. I wasn't in complete agreement w/ everyone on the Thunder's offseason, but tried to stay on point and civil, and just glancing through this thread, it went to hell somewhere along the way.

honestly if these guys say some things about the clips that i only 100% agree with it i'm gonna find it to be pretty boring lol

just have fun with the discussion, everyone. no, outside guys won't know as much about your team as you do. but you can enjoy trying to educate people about the common misconceptions about your team.

[H2tObes]

I see it this way

Zaza's minutes are now Monroe's

Ersan's minutes are now Jabari's.

Both potential big upgrades. I think the Bucks will get better as the season progresses and the players begin to mesh. Expecting a rocky start especially if we start the season without Jabari

Right, we all agree your starters got better with Monroe and Jabari in. Our point is simply comparing Zaza and Dudley to whomever takes roster spots 14 and 15 and saying the Bucks would be better with those 2 guys. Because you would still have Jabari and Monroe even if you kept those 2.

I'm not sure what's really difficult to see about this?

Im just saying there's only so many minutes to go around. I think the loss of the vets will be felt for sure for at least a little bit, but their minutes could be improved on from the players we added. Wouldnt make sense to give Zaza/Henson 10 minutes each when we are trying to have youth a movement, it doesnt hurt that much to drop Zaza, replace him with a better player, and give the 20 backup minutes all to Henson. So yes we lost the vets but their minutes are completely taken by potentially better players. There isn't a necessarily expected dropoff when you replace old vets with younger and possibly better players

[winter_mute_13]

All:

I just want to say a quick thing here. I have zilch to do with these reviews, and I haven't 100 percent agreed with them. That said, the 2 guys doing them have absolutely zero agenda and haven't shown one at all. They've done work on these things and are giving honest opinions. If they don't like a team's offseason, its not a big deal. It just isn't (sorry guys, you aren't quite that important to decide the future ). Please take any criticisms of any team not as a big deal, but just how someone feels a team did in the offseason. We can disagree, but please, try to do so in a civil fashion. I wasn't in complete agreement w/ everyone on the Thunder's offseason, but tried to stay on point and civil, and just glancing through this thread, it went to hell somewhere along the way.

Agree with this. Chuck and PMOTT have been doing this for a few teams now, and this is the most riled up feedback I've seen. Of course they're probably not going to get everything right, but Buck fans could probably have stated their objections in a more civil manner.

FWIW, I'm looking forward to them reviewing the Pacers' offseason. And I personally would have given a better grade for the Bucks - I like the Monroe acquisition.

[quick23]

The reason the grade isn't better is because they could have done all the moves I liked AND still kept Dudley and Zaza. Yes I know Dudley will miss some time and yes I understand both guys are nothing more than solid role players. But solid role players are really nice to have to get through 82 games where guys are going to get hurt and miss games and nice to have some guys with lots of playoff experience to call on in a big moment in a playoff game.

So I really like the team. I was baffled by the overpay on Grevis and just giving away 2 good players for free when they just didn't need to. So the grade reflects that.

Don't really feel like reading everything here right now, so idk if someone already mentioned this, but regarding the Dudley and Zaza trades: Dudley was on Zach Lowe's podcast a few days ago (http://espn.go.com/espnradio/grantland/player?id=13309078) and talked about it from about 10:00. He's basically saying that he wanted to go to the Wizards and the trade was the Bucks doing him a favor for being a pro in his time there and implies that the Zaza trade was the same thing.

I thught this was pretty common knowledge. I know the Bucks fans discussed this on their board.

If this was address 50 posts ago, perhaps all this he said/he said could have been avoided.

Yes the Bucks didn't get value for Zaza and Dudley.

However with the reason being that they were rewarding veteran players that wanted to move on/had a diminished role in front of them makes sense. Does it make the most sense to do business for this year? No. Does it help in recruiting players down the road and help Milwaukee improve it's image as a place players want to go? Maybe. If it does, it's a big deal as Milwaukee isn't well regarded as a place to play for.

[Texas Chuck]

That's fine if the Bucks want to do a solid by their guys. But I'm still counting it as a negative for this off-season. I guess there is some potential benefit to recruiting down the road, but for a team in their position, regardless of reason, I didn't like it.

And in case you are worrying about consistency I'm going to be hard on the Mavs for the contracts giving to Matthews and Barea in the light of Jordan's reversal. Yes I appreciate the Mavs gave these guys their word that they would do so and I would expect nothing less than them honoring it. It was the right thing to do. Those are also 2 pretty horrible contracts and my grading of the Mavs off-season is going to reflect that.

[quick23]

CT: I agree with you. They should have gotten some tangible value for them.

Both were worth 2nd's at least.

I was pointing out thast if everyone ackowledged this information perhaps this thread doesn't get derailed so badly

I loved te Middleton and Monroe signings. I feel locking players up before the cap jumps the next few years will make almost every contract look reasonable. I was okay with the Vaughn pick as I think the Bucks have drafted fairly well the last 5 years. He should add shooting that they really need. I don't agree with the moves of Zaza and Dudley but it seems they were never resigning either one, so they did them a solid. I believe they could have structured the deal to give them one bigger TPE as well. I think Vasquez gives them depth at the 1/2 that is more reliable than what they had. I think they overpaid for him. I would have really liked if they took Indy's spot in the trade for Christmas to give them more young depth.

[HartfordWhalers]

CT: I agree with you. They should have gotten some tangible value for them.

Both were worth 2nd's at least.

I was pointing out thast if everyone ackowledged this information perhaps this thread doesn't get derailed so badly

I loved te Middleton and Monroe signings. I feel locking players up before the cap jumps the next few years will make almost every contract look reasonable. I was okay with the Vaughn pick as I think the Bucks have drafted fairly well the last 5 years. He should add shooting that they really need. I don't agree with the moves of Zaza and Dudley but it seems they were never resigning either one, so they did them a solid. I believe they could have structured the deal to give them one bigger TPE as well. I think Vasquez gives them depth at the 1/2 that is more reliable than what they had. I think they overpaid for him. I would have really liked if they took Indy's spot in the trade for Christmas to give them more young depth.

You cannot structure a deal to get 1 larger TPE. You get a TPE for the size of a player traded away (minus any incoming salary you need to use to match).

[quick23]

CT: I agree with you. They should have gotten some tangible value for them.

Both were worth 2nd's at least.

I was pointing out thast if everyone ackowledged this information perhaps this thread doesn't get derailed so badly

I loved te Middleton and Monroe signings. I feel locking players up before the cap jumps the next few years will make almost every contract look reasonable. I was okay with the Vaughn pick as I think the Bucks have drafted fairly well the last 5 years. He should add shooting that they really need. I don't agree with the moves of Zaza and Dudley but it seems they were never resigning either one, so they did them a solid. I believe they could have structured the deal to give them one bigger TPE as well. I think Vasquez gives them depth at the 1/2 that is more reliable than what they had. I think they overpaid for him. I would have really liked if they took Indy's spot in the trade for Christmas to give them more young depth.

You cannot structure a deal to get 1 larger TPE. You get a TPE for the size of a player traded away (minus any incoming salary you need to use to match).

Could they not have made it one three way trade and gained the TPE that way?

Perhaps I misread something at some point.

[HartfordWhalers]

CT: I agree with you. They should have gotten some tangible value for them.

Both were worth 2nd's at least.

I was pointing out thast if everyone ackowledged this information perhaps this thread doesn't get derailed so badly

I loved te Middleton and Monroe signings. I feel locking players up before the cap jumps the next few years will make almost every contract look reasonable. I was okay with the Vaughn pick as I think the Bucks have drafted fairly well the last 5 years. He should add shooting that they really need. I don't agree with the moves of Zaza and Dudley but it seems they were never resigning either one, so they did them a solid. I believe they could have structured the deal to give them one bigger TPE as well. I think Vasquez gives them depth at the 1/2 that is more reliable than what they had. I think they overpaid for him. I would have really liked if they took Indy's spot in the trade for Christmas to give them more young depth.

You cannot structure a deal to get 1 larger TPE. You get a TPE for the size of a player traded away (minus any incoming salary you need to use to match).

Could they not have made it one three way trade and gained the TPE that way?

Perhaps I misread something at some point.

If you trade away for a 2nd 2 players, 1 making 4m and one making 3m, even if it is the same trade you cannot ever get a 7m TPE. You get a 4m one and a 3m one. TPE's can never be larger than the largest salary traded away.

[quick23]

You cannot structure a deal to get 1 larger TPE. You get a TPE for the size of a player traded away (minus any incoming salary you need to use to match).

Could they not have made it one three way trade and gained the TPE that way?

Perhaps I misread something at some point.

If you trade away for a 2nd 2 players, 1 making 4m and one making 3m, even if it is the same trade you cannot ever get a 7m TPE. You get a 4m one and a 3m one. TPE's can never be larger than the largest salary traded away.

Thanks for clearing that up for me.

[cammac]

Think a C is fair
Middleton was a A
Monroe has always been over-rated was never going to get the Max but good free agent signing B
Trade for Vasquez F
Trade for Dudley & Zaza F (Zaza had value)
Trade of Ilyasova D
Draft Rashad Vaughn B

[loserX]

Just in general terms, I want to thank CT and PMOTT for doing these. I understand that these posts can be controversial (rankings ALWAYS are), and that they're just two guys' opinions, but these posters are putting in time and effort and thought, and we're getting a chance to talk about things (particularly while the offseason is in a bit of a dead spot with many rosters set already).

It's true, they haven't watched the Bucks all season, and neither have I. I imagine none of us watch most of any team's season unless it's our own; it's just not practical. But if we need to hit a certain number of games watched before we can offer ANY evaluation of another team's players, we're going to have to shut down this board...that's all we do here

[Bernman]

Think a C is fair
Middleton was a A
Monroe has always been over-rated was never going to get the Max but good free agent signing B
Trade for Vasquez F
Trade for Dudley & Zaza F (Zaza had value)
Trade of Ilyasova D
Draft Rashad Vaughn B

Monroe: A, he's underrated, see #'s without Drummond before and during, only thing keeping it from A+ is the length of the deal or lack there of

Middleton: A, not a world beater but a very good 3+d and solid fit for the team who they got for below the max, and all his years will be prime

Trade of Ilyasova: B, facilitated Monroe signing

Drafting of Vaughn: C-, not terrible, a # of better picks like Grant who would have been much needed long-term alternative to MCW, reached out of perceived shooting need, I think he'll be better than Hunter

Trade of Dudley: D, they might have been able to use him quite a bit the start of the season in the absence of Jabari, but turns out he's got his own injury that puts that part of the schedule in question for him too, don't know if they were aware of the injury beforehand, still should have gotten a lil' something

Trade of Zaza: D, something about wanting to increase time for Henson either to justify extending or trading him at the deadline, I would have just moved Henson and kept Zaza though, and they should have gotten at least a little something for him again

Trade for Vasquez: D, gave up a future 1st and a 2nd when there were a few players left I liked, he's an OK backup so that price was too steep, should have some use this year as alternative to MCW and in lineup with him early


The Monroe, Vaughn, and Middleton moves are the most important. So C+/B- I think is fair.

[MotownMadness]

As I said in a other thread about the Bucks. Monroe is a very good player but he is also a bit of a ball stopper. He has to have the ball in his hands to be effective. He offers nothing off the ball because he has no range or athleticism. I'm very interested to see him with another team now to see if he improves the Bucks or brings them down a level. I almost feel like he has to a lesser degree a Melo effect, where he's a ball stopper on the offensive side and doesn't bring anything on the defensive side. I've always felt he was a really good player just one that's hard to win with.

[buckboy]

yeah where we disgree is with this notion that Dudley and Zaza aren't more valuable than not having them. And I don't understand at all your concerns about salary. They both expire so new contracts to Jabari/Giannis/MCW would not be impacted and the team would still be well under the tax line for this year. I understand ownership wanting to save money so I understand why the moves were made. I just think the Bucks are too good to move useful players like that in a salary dump.

That doesnt mean they contributed nearly enough through whole season to justify paying them these money ,why not getting more addition to support the young core and let the our starting 5 play more minutes ?
It was a fact that they both stole playtime from the young as we where rotation everyone, for Kidd it was a year where he gave everyone a chance.
Zaza got no room with Henson and Monroe added and Plumlee and Dudley was simply underperforming terribly and wanted to get traded to Wizzards . So we clear money and let the young play.
The reason we had the veterans was to help the youngs to get into the game and by being locker room leaders but now we have transitioned from that and we simply do not need them and the stats/performance proves the Bucks right as they saw the young core taking wins without them, without a bench in a year without jabari,injuries, new teamate in MCW and so on.

The biggest reason in my opinion why we got rid of them,besides of the performance issues was that we decided to rely on our young core and give them more time.

For all the talk about how Milwaukee fell off last year post trade deadline because they lacked bench, it is amazing that the choice to trade away guys who were 3rd, 4th, and 8th in minutes played for nothing is okay.

Ilyasova Dudley and Pachulia

For

Monroe Parker and Vasquez

That would be why it's ok.

I went B. .my reasoning:

--anytime you can pick up a player of Monroe's quality for free, it's a home run. Particularly when you can pretty much guarantee you can move him at any time during the contract. Barring injury of course.

--Moving stiffs like Pachulia Ilyasova and Dudley to make room for younger players is also a home run. Yeah, the younger guys may be stiffs, but we don't KNOW that. Not yet anyway.

--I love Rashad Vaughn. Almost certainly irrationally, but there it is.

'-Vasquez trade was bad. Fortunately that Clippers pick is pretty worthless, but yeah. It's worth more than Vasquez, who should've been had for free.

- Lol @ Middleton Being overpaid. Great deal for the Bucks, and u particularly love the fact that he wanted to be here bad enough that he didn't even shop himself.

[Bernman]

As I said in a other thread about the Bucks. Monroe is a very good player but he is also a bit of a ball stopper. He has to have the ball in his hands to be effective. He offers nothing off the ball because he has no range or athleticism. I'm very interested to see him with another team now to see if he improves the Bucks or brings them down a level. I almost feel like he has to a lesser degree a Melo effect, where he's a ball stopper on the offensive side and doesn't bring anything on the defensive side. I've always felt he was a really good player just one that's hard to win with.

Monroe can dominate down low with proper spacing, pass all over your ass, and board to start a fast break. When he gets on a team with decent or better shooting he'll be a beast and they'll be very strong offensively. That won't likely the Bucks to start out with, but they should develop into that sort of team with natural development and simple moves.

And Kidd has a way of hiding a center's weakness defensively. Brook Lopez had the top opponent fg% at the rim under Kidd, and even Zaza was solid in that department. Henson became one of the best rim protectors in the NBA, but despite his length previously he was shaky in the department.

The Bucks will have an easy time winning with him at the end of year 1, or in year 2.

[MotownMadness]

As I said in a other thread about the Bucks. Monroe is a very good player but he is also a bit of a ball stopper. He has to have the ball in his hands to be effective. He offers nothing off the ball because he has no range or athleticism. I'm very interested to see him with another team now to see if he improves the Bucks or brings them down a level. I almost feel like he has to a lesser degree a Melo effect, where he's a ball stopper on the offensive side and doesn't bring anything on the defensive side. I've always felt he was a really good player just one that's hard to win with.

Monroe can dominate down low with proper spacing, pass all over your ass, and board to start a fast break. When he gets on a team with decent or better shooting he'll be a beast and they'll be very strong offensively. That won't likely the Bucks to start out with, but they should develop into that sort of team with natural development and simple moves.

And Kidd has a way of hiding a center's weakness defensively. Brook Lopez had the top opponent fg% at the rim under Kidd, and even Zaza was solid in that department. Henson became one of the best rim protectors in the NBA, but despite his length previously he was shaky in the department.

The Bucks will have an easy time winning with him at the end of year 1, or in year 2.

I know what he does, I've watched every game of his over the last 5 years. I was just pointing out what you basically said. He needs the right type of team around him to be real successful and I don't see that with the Bucks right now. You need a defensive 4 with a midrange shot and shooters around him.