Are the Suns a treadmill team?

Revived · Post #161 » by **Revived** » Tue Jul 21, 2015 9:23 am

Frank Lee wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
I don't know if I want to go through all the summer and deadline moves. I figured you knew about them. They traded Dragic for picks, and with that cap space made another trade to get Brandon Knight who is younger with higher upside. They also used some of the cap space created to sign Tyson Chandler, and another young guy coming off a rookie contract, in Teletovic. I didn't think you would be a fan of keeping Dragic or Frye, so basically they have been replaced by much younger players in Knight and Teletovic.

So Knight has a higher upside than Dragic...just because he is younger? meaning he will be better than prime Dragon ? That is crystal balling BS. You a bird in the hand or two in the bush guy ? Keep in mind, Knight was a reactionary move to McDuh F-n up a good thing with Bled and the Dragon. You really think he had it planned all along????

Furthermore....

Teletovic is a young 29.... yet same age as that old guard Goran.

Chandler is 32. GrandPa Frye is... 32 as well

What is it with you and age ??? quit using it a convenient defense on your optimistical rebuttals.... its getting old

LMA is 30, LeBron James is 30...
What was Nash doing when he was 30 ?? Oh, I remember, playing in the WCFs....just saying. Stop it.

Delusionally yours,

Frank

PS....
Optimism - the doctrine or belief that everything is beautiful, including what is ugly.
Ambrose Bierce

Optimism is the madness of insisting that all is well when we are miserable.
Voltaire

Two can play, No?

Frank you disappoint me. You missed a golden opportunity to respond to that post with the ol

MrMiyagi · Post #162 » by **MrMiyagi** » Tue Jul 21, 2015 9:45 am

SF88 wrote:
MrMiyagi wrote:
Frank Lee wrote:

PS....

Two can play, No?

We're watching basketball, not battling the plague. To say that watching basketball makes you miserable, then maybe you should just not do it....

So when he defined optimism, it became "We're not battling the plague it's just a game"....lmao ok how about I respond to Bwgood's cynicism definition with "We're not going to Iraq for war, it's just basketball"?

I love love love, LOVE the double standards of this forum

You realize your analogy makes no sense, right? If you don't, refer to BW's third quote on cynicism to find a possibility as to why that is.

Post #163 » by **lilfishi22** » Tue Jul 21, 2015 10:49 am

SF88 wrote:No I don't want them to trade Chandler, Knight, Bledsoe etc for picks unless it's an eye opening deal.

I think the idea on this board that draft selections don't matter and that a #1 pick has just as much chance of becoming a star or good player as the #13 pick is bs. And before you say "who said that", nobody said those exact words but at least one person has said something close enough to that.

I haven't read anything like that. Feel free to call them out if you feel that's what they said.

The same people who believe that the Suns are in better position than teams like the Twolves which is an opinion that nobody outside Suns would ever share.

Better is subjective. Better this season? Better next season? Better in 5 years? I think we're better than the Wolves this upcoming season and it's entirely possible we'll be better than them in 5 seasons. Yes they have the talent to be a great team, but at this point, they are just talent, just like our young guys. TJ doesn't have Wiggins level of potential but who knows how Wiggins will be managed and developed in a historically poorly run organisation.

Like saint posted earlier, if #13 is just as good as #1-3 then what's the point of having the draft lottery? Why not just have whichever team shows up first to the draft in June pick first and have it an order of whichever team reps show up at the draft first or something?

Again, if you've read something to that extent, then call it out.

Again, all this is ridiculous and quite frankly bwgood, it's a bit sickening to see you turn all homer just because of the mod title. Was hoping you remain objective (I'm not saying my side is objective or that I'm objective but I don't think you are here).

Sure we're in better position this off season now but it's not really time to be that excited about the direction this franchise is headed and I think fans have that right to not be excited. It's basically playoffs or bust especially with the West getting considerably weaker among the playoff teams from last season.

So you're dictating when we should and shouldn't be excited? Fans have the right to be excited and not excited just the same. If you're going to call out bwgood (mod or not, we're still fans of the team) for being a homer, then tell us why you think that.

I've talked about and listed the reasons why I am a lot more optimistic about our team after this offseason as compared to last off season just as bwgood has. I feel like those reasons are factual and not especially controversial. But hey, f**k me if I enjoy watching our young guys develop and compete right?

Post #164 » by **bwgood77** » Tue Jul 21, 2015 2:15 pm

SF88 wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
SF88 wrote:Not a knock on Len or Warren as much to show how highly regarded those players are.

I genuinely cannot understand what you are wishing/hoping/wanting the Suns to do. I was under the impression you wanted us to keep Dragic and was unhappy to see him go. But you also are talking like you want us to tank. But then you want us to get rid of Hornacek because he is not a good coach, but if you want to tank, why not keep a bad coach for awhile?

And what would your plan be? Are you just saying you want to trade guys like Bledsoe, Knight, Markieff and Chandler for picks? Picks hold a lot of value and people don't give up unprotected picks often so I don't know if you'd even be able to trade any of those guys for a guaranteed high pick anyway.

I am just pretty confused.

I think we are in a bit of a tough position because we surprised some people last year, and we ended up being better than most people thought, so our rebuild accelerated, but there isn't much you can do unless you want to just really try and trade all those guys above, for picks, and then that would probably set us back another 4-5 years. We might have a higher upside then, but we also might not.

No I don't want them to trade Chandler, Knight, Bledsoe etc for picks unless it's an eye opening deal.

I think the idea on this board that draft selections don't matter and that a #1 pick has just as much chance of becoming a star or good player as the #13 pick is bs. And before you say "who said that", nobody said those exact words but at least one person has said something close enough to that.

The same people who believe that the Suns are in better position than teams like the Twolves which is an opinion that nobody outside Suns would ever share.

Like saint posted earlier, if #13 is just as good as #1-3 then what's the point of having the draft lottery? Why not just have whichever team shows up first to the draft in June pick first and have it an order of whichever team reps show up at the draft first or something?

Again, all this is ridiculous and quite frankly bwgood, it's a bit sickening to see you turn all homer just because of the mod title. Was hoping you remain objective (I'm not saying my side is objective or that I'm objective but I don't think you are here).

Sure we're in better position this off season now but it's not really time to be that excited about the direction this franchise is headed and I think fans have that right to not be excited. It's basically playoffs or bust especially with the West getting considerably weaker among the playoff teams from last season.

I don't think one person thinks that you have just as good chance at getting a great player at 13 as at #1. Personally I have pointed out that some great players have been picked at 13 like Karl Malone. You just need good scouting. I'd rather us have won the lottery of course and was hopeful that would happen though it was far fetched. I just don't understand the argument because it's not like there are people out there pulling for us to get the 13th pick. I certainly don't want to pull for us to be terrible so we can get a high pick...especially not now. I kind of was hoping for that at the beginning of the 2013 season, and even took a while to change course on my hopes despite the hot start.

As for the assertions on a mod making me homerish. That has nothing to do with me being optimistic. I get optimistic EVERY Suns offseason and hopeful for the new season. Two offseasons ago I was hopeful we would get Wiggins, and we ended up with the 14th pick. So I was hopeful and optimistic we made a good pick even though part of me was disappointed we didn't get that high pick. But of course we did get a guy who beat out Jabari Parker for ACC player of the year and looks like an absolute keeper.

I was disgusted with what happened with the whole midseason/Dragic ordeal and the way the FO showed a bit of immaturity, as I have well stated and argued against the more homerish/blame Dragic for being a baby viewpoints and you know this. I think they ended up getting a good package for an expiring contract by getting two firsts (one unprotected). I still am unsure about the Knight trade, but I have always liked Knight. I was really impressed by the press conference though. Am I a fan of the 2 pg style? It's hard to know until I see the product with an off season, chemistry and leadership. It worked fairly well two offseasons ago and was difficult to stop.

Would I rather have Minnesota's young team? If I stood back, having not watching either team, I would easily say Minnesota. Having watched the young Suns, it does leave me vested in our team, but obviously it would be tough to take any young group over one with Towns and Wiggins, and they also have other exciting young guys. But they have some flaws, and I have seen rumblings that Towns may not be better than Turner (though any talk like this is extremely premature) and some say Wiggins puts up empty stats.

But ultimately I personally can't judge this Minnesota team because I haven't watched those guys enough. They may lack shooting which makes it tough to win in this league. Their lineup sounds VERY intriguing though.

For us, again, it's going to come down to Len and Warren and their development, and hopefully Telly can add some floor stretching production at the 4. I don't want you to take my viewpoints personally because you started the thread. I don't disagree with the notion it is not good to be stuck in the middle, but that is where we are and there really isn't some clear way that we could easily just shift course and get to the top or bottom.

I wouldn't be shocked if we were surprisingly competitive though. I personally like Chandler more than Frye and think Len is better than Plumlee, and Knight may be close to what Dragic was, and we have more depth than we did two years ago, so we may end up being as good as or better than that team. We certainly have more defensive presence and everyone seems to be in it for the long haul, signed to long deals (except for a couple of guys) so I choose to be hopeful and optimistic. I think the biggest key is whether or not we can come close to replicating the Dragic/Frye pick-n-pop in one way or another. Maybe we go back to more of the pick n roll we did with Amare, but use Tyson, and hopefully Warren/Tucker/Telly/Kieff can draw their defenders out.

I don't understand what being pessimistic brings to the table. I think you know if I think the FO makes a blunder I will be outspoken against them on that though. I haven't seen one this summer and I loved what I saw in summer league.

phrazbit · Post #165 » by **phrazbit** » Tue Jul 21, 2015 5:52 pm

MrMiyagi wrote:
SF88 wrote:
MrMiyagi wrote:We're watching basketball, not battling the plague. To say that watching basketball makes you miserable, then maybe you should just not do it....

So when he defined optimism, it became "We're not battling the plague it's just a game"....lmao ok how about I respond to Bwgood's cynicism definition with "We're not going to Iraq for war, it's just basketball"?

I love love love, LOVE the double standards of this forum

You realize your analogy makes no sense, right? If you don't, refer to BW's third quote on cynicism to find a possibility as to why that is.

No, I guarantee he does not realize the analogy makes no sense. Unless he is posting a gif, posting someone else's tweet or generally plagiarizing material then it probably won't make sense.

Two Time · Post #166 » by **Two Time** » Tue Jul 21, 2015 6:07 pm

If any of the whiny cynics are alluding to a post I had made myself a few days back, that was supported by BGood, then let me expound and clarify some on that post so you can continue to whine on about it.

I presented that a team can build a good team from lower lottery on down if they in the NBA could actually scout worth a damn.

This was not to state that I believe that you should focus solely on the draft and continue to try and get mid to late lottery picks. Your chances are higher to get a good player the higher you are in the draft, no doubt about that. I was simply stating that, that if you draft solidly in your position while also using free agency and trades to your advantage, you can build your team that way. Crazy, don't put all your eggs in one basket!

If the Suns really did ever have Lamarcus Aldridges attention, and he actually at one point was considering playing for the Suns, they were right on with their method at team building. Just the same as getting yourself into a lower draft position, and taking a Michael Beasely, or many of the busts that go in the top 5 of drafts.

While I am no homer or eternal optimist, that is more favorable then the cynics with their feeling of superiority. Way to go out on a ledge and predict doom and gloom, as not attaining the very top is much more unlikely than not. Thanks for the HOT TAKES.

Frank Lee · Post #167 » by **Frank Lee** » Tue Jul 21, 2015 7:09 pm

Jesus... now I am confused as to what I am...

An optimistic cynic ? A pessimistic realist ? Someone who isn't so impressed with the construction methods of this front office. Someone who has seen good teams built through drafts, free agency, AND trades, here ...in phoenix. Someone who sees 6-7 new guys each yr on a team and questions the cohesive direction we are taking.

SOMEONE PLEASE LABEL ME

MrMiyagi · Post #168 » by **MrMiyagi** » Tue Jul 21, 2015 7:20 pm

Frank Lee wrote:Jesus... now I am confused as to what I am...

An optimistic cynic ? A pessimistic realist ? Someone who isn't so impressed with the construction methods of this front office. Someone who has seen good teams built through drafts, free agency, AND trades, here ...in phoenix. Someone who sees 6-7 new guys each yr on a team and questions the cohesive direction we are taking.

SOMEONE PLEASE LABEL ME

You're Frank Lee, generally skeptical/confused by what our front office is doing and whether or not it's something to be excited about or disappointed in.

JTrain · Post #169 » by **JTrain** » Tue Jul 21, 2015 11:40 pm

You guys have a confused definition of cynicism.

saintEscaton · Post #170 » by **saintEscaton** » Tue Jul 21, 2015 11:51 pm

JTrain wrote:You guys have a confused definition of cynicism.

Yup cynicism is not synonymous with pessimism. This is why we naysayers should strive towards Stoicism. Be generally distrusting of our FO and care not for the fatalistic vicissitudes of a predetermined fortune that transcends our will. To be emotionally detached to follies of man's judgment and to endure hardship without complaint. (Or simply don't be a fan)

JTrain · Post #171 » by **JTrain** » Wed Jul 22, 2015 12:11 am

saintEscaton wrote:
JTrain wrote:You guys have a confused definition of cynicism.

Yup cynicism is not synonymous with pessimism. This is why we naysayers should strive towards Stoicism. Be generally distrusting of our FO and care not for the fatalistic vicissitudes of a predetermined fortune that transcends our will. To be emotionally detached to follies of man's judgment and to endure hardship without complaint. (Or simply don't be a fan)

Well, that escalated quickly.

I'm right with you on the first sentence at least. I think the Stoics simply suffered from lack of good pop music.

But anyways, I think Frank is more of a realist mistaken as a pessimist.

Post #172 » by **bwgood77** » Wed Jul 22, 2015 3:30 am

Frank Lee wrote:Jesus... now I am confused as to what I am...

An optimistic cynic ? A pessimistic realist ? Someone who isn't so impressed with the construction methods of this front office. Someone who has seen good teams built through drafts, free agency, AND trades, here ...in phoenix. Someone who sees 6-7 new guys each yr on a team and questions the cohesive direction we are taking.

SOMEONE PLEASE LABEL ME

I only label you when you label me. I genuinely think you make good posts, but at the same time, you can be quite negative repeatedly, which is everyone's option, when we haven't yet seen what this team can do it, but I hope for we can be good like we were two years ago.

Frank Lee · Post #173 » by **Frank Lee** » Wed Jul 22, 2015 5:29 am

Thanks Miyagi... I feel better

PS... you too Train 8-)

starbosa10 · Post #174 » by **starbosa10** » Wed Jul 22, 2015 7:47 am

there's different methods of team building. tanking and getting a top 5 pick doesn't work out all the time either

phrazbit · Post #175 » by **phrazbit** » Thu Jul 23, 2015 8:05 pm

starbosa10 wrote:there's different methods of team building. tanking and getting a top 5 pick doesn't work out all the time either

It does not work out about 90% of the time.

It takes a balanced approach, and its not so much about where you draft just that you draft well. The Suns from 1989-2010 were in the playoffs almost every season and several years were a serious title contender and they did it without drafting higher than 9th. The Celtics won a title via smart trades and smart drafting (its often misstated that the 2008 Celtic team was built through free agency but it was not. Rondo, Pierce, KG and Ray Allen were all brought in via draft or trade).

For all the glory people around these forums give to the "tank and draft" strategy its main success story (the Thunder) have not won a title, and the current banner-men of the strategy (the Sixers) have been a dismal failure.

NavLDO · Post #176 » by **NavLDO** » Sat Jul 25, 2015 5:29 pm

SF88 wrote:
Why? Because the draft that Len was drafted in may end up being the worst draft major sports in America. Not even just the NBA, but overall in sports, that will likely end up as the worst draft ever.

Wait, what??? First off, we are but two seasons removed from that draft, so there is no way to determine that this early.

And second, just because Bennett has 'busted out' so far, doesn't mean the rest of the picks have:

Oladipo, Len, Noel, McLemore, KCP, Adams, Muhammed, MCW, Olynyk, Giannis, Snell, Dieng, Mason Plumlee, and Gobert are all solid players, with some still coming into their own and have a good chance of breaking out.

I could easily argue that the 2011 Draft, 2012 Draft, 2004 Draft, and 2006 draft as being worse; with the 2010 Draft (outside of Wall, Cousins, or George, it was very mediocre) at least worthy of consideration. The 2013 Draft could realize Noel, Giannis, and Gobert earning 'all-star' or 'all-NBA' status within the next couple of years. You can't realistically judge the class for at least another 2-3 years, IMO.

As far as the greater topic of the Suns being a 'Treadmill Team', I agree with those that feel that basing that moniker on where in the draft we draft is short-sided. Additionally, as I've mentioned, with only having McD/Horny at the helm for two years, how can the team be considered a 'Treadmill Team"? Along with the constant turnover of the players hardly lends itself to being a 'Treadmill Team'.

Now, you want to argue that McDonough made some poor choices? Sure, but he's a brand new GM that is doing what he can to make us competitive. But he surely isn't just sitting on his hands; handing out only 're-signs' and being happy with the current progress of the team. That is a treadmill team, not doing what he's doing.

Post #177 » by **batsmasher** » Sun Jul 26, 2015 6:15 am

I'm glad this thread has derailed into the cynicism/optimism/pessimism/realist debate because it really is a big part of how opinions are formed around here. Of course we can't tell ya: "BE OPTIMISTIC DAMMNIT!!" but I personally don't see any value in the constant pessimism.

Sports weren't created to make us ultra analytical lifeless beings, they were made to bring us together and enjoy shared experiences... both good and bad. From what I read on this forum, there are quite a few people who don't enjoy being Suns fans. That sucks. A little more optimism goes a long way... not just in sports but in our lives.

Mulhollanddrive · Post #178 » by **Mulhollanddrive** » Sun Jul 26, 2015 10:36 am

What is the meaning of sport?

Mr Puddles · Post #179 » by **Mr Puddles** » Sun Jul 26, 2015 1:06 pm

saintEscaton wrote:
JTrain wrote:You guys have a confused definition of cynicism.

Yup cynicism is not synonymous with pessimism. This is why we naysayers should strive towards Stoicism. Be generally distrusting of our FO and care not for the fatalistic vicissitudes of a predetermined fortune that transcends our will. To be emotionally detached to follies of man's judgment and to endure hardship without complaint. (Or simply don't be a fan)

I learned all kinds of new words just now!

NavLDO · Post #180 » by **NavLDO** » Sun Jul 26, 2015 4:56 pm

I just wanted to show the last 10 drafts (not counting 2015) to show how much of a 'crap shoot' it really is. Just 'unhide' the spoiler. Sure, your chances are better drafting in the top 5 than later than 5th, but considering the lottery, it's no guarantee if you tank, you come away with a top 5 pick, but still, out of 50 players selected in the top 5, only 16 have been All-star/All-NBA types, and 9 have come from players selected 6-15, but those numbers should be a bit higher, due to 2013/2014 players yet to be established.

So while it should surprise no one that drafting Top 5 gives you a better chance at selecting one of these types, it's FAR from a guarantee. I also count 15 guys drafted in the top 5 that cannot be considered as having a positive impact, and that's not counting the ho-hum types that may be solid contributors, but just are not what one would consider as being worth a top 5 selection, so basically, the remaining 10 or so guys (not counting 2013/2014).

Also, I think it's more worth while to look at our W/L record vice draft position to determine whether the suns are a treadmill team.

2015--39 - 43 .476
2014--48 - 34 .585
2013--25 - 57 .305
2012--33 - 33 .500
2011--40 - 42 .488
2010--54 - 28 .659
2009--46 - 36 .561

There are literally only 2 consecutive seasons of the past 7 where our win % is within .100 pts of each other. How is that treadmilling, exactly?

I can understanding being frustrated at missing the playoffs for the past 5 seasons, I am too, but we were just one game away a couple of years ago and drafted 14th, while last year we drafted 13th. But the difference in wins (9) is much greater than draft position (1). That's not treadmilling, and the high turnover in players over the past two years is not treadmilling. We're closer to 'rebuilding' than we 'treadmilling', and in fact, I believe the term is 'retooling' that best describes what the Suns are. Draft position or how many consecutive playoff seasons missed doesn't dictate this characterization; what a team does in player rotation, etc., is what dictates this characterization, IMO.

Spoiler: