Are the Suns a treadmill team?

[Scutt]

I just wanted to show the last 10 drafts (not counting 2015) to show how much of a 'crap shoot' it really is. Just 'unhide' the spoiler. Sure, your chances are better drafting in the top 5 than later than 5th, but considering the lottery, it's no guarantee if you tank, you come away with a top 5 pick, but still, out of 50 players selected in the top 5, only 16 have been All-star/All-NBA types, and 9 have come from players selected 6-15, but those numbers should be a bit higher, due to 2013/2014 players yet to be established.

I like how you put " 6 - 15" , when truthfully, only ONE all-star fell out of the top 10, and that was Clay Thompson, with the 11th pick. I hate to break it to you, but the Suns are not drafting in the top 10, so the chances they draft an all-star are still very low. You are trying to prove the draft is a crap shoot, but you are providing proof that no all-star has been drafted 12th through 15th from 2005 to 2014.

So in the last 10 years, only one all-star has fallen out of the top 10, and he was taken with the 11th pick. How is this supposed to make Suns fan feel better about always drafting with the 13th and 14th picks? I must have missed something...

[Moochthemonkey]

I just wanted to show the last 10 drafts (not counting 2015) to show how much of a 'crap shoot' it really is. Just 'unhide' the spoiler. Sure, your chances are better drafting in the top 5 than later than 5th, but considering the lottery, it's no guarantee if you tank, you come away with a top 5 pick, but still, out of 50 players selected in the top 5, only 16 have been All-star/All-NBA types, and 9 have come from players selected 6-15, but those numbers should be a bit higher, due to 2013/2014 players yet to be established.

I like how you put " 6 - 15" , when truthfully, only ONE all-star fell out of the top 10, and that was Clay Thompson, with the 11th pick.

That's not true.

Danny Granger (#17)
David Lee (#30)
Rajon Rondo (#21)
Kyle Lowry (#24)
Paul Milsap (#47)
Marc Gasol (#48)
Roy Hibert (#17)
Deandre Jordan (#35)
Goran Dragic (#45, not an All Star, but making an All NBA team speaks more about the player than All Star selection)
Jrue Holiday (#17)
Jeff Teague (#19)
Jimmy Butler (#30)


Serge Ibaka (#24), Demarre Carrol (#27), Eric Bledsoe (#18), Kawhi Leonard (#14), Tobias Harris (#19), Kenneth Faried (#22), Draymond Green (#35), Khris Middleton (#39), Rudy Gobert (#27), T.J. Warren (#14), Timofey Mozgov (undrafted) all are all star candidates or likely will be candidates in the future, IMO

[Scutt]

^ I was referring to the top 15, as he posted in his list. I am well aware that once in awhile, all-stars slip into the late first round. My whole point is, rarely do they end up end up at the 13th and 14th spots.

[Moochthemonkey]

^ I was referring to the top 15, as he posted in his list. I am well aware that once in awhile, all-stars slip into the late first round. My whole point is, rarely do they end up end up at the 13th and 14th spots.

Is there a protection against the players that are drafted 15-60? Are they off limits from being selected in the lottery? That was my whole point. And therefore- while all star calibers are rarely selected in that range, it is a bit of an arbitrary statistic; what it takes is creative scouting and good player development. For example, while premature I don't think its farfetched to predict T.J. Warren as a top 5 player in the 2015 draft with all star potential.

[Phystic]

I would define a treadmill team as a team that has been stuck in a position for multiple years and have no real way to get any better.. Suns have assets to make trades to improve. And could also have the ability to fall into the Top 10 pick range. The west is super competitive as we all know and the teams below us(theoretically) could easily pass us. Like the Timberwolves, Lakers, Jazz, Kings.

I would say the Chandler signing definitely puts us on track to be a treadmill team. I don't think he does enough to elevate us into a real playoff team but with him present it makes it much harder to lose a lot of games. This is of course barring injury problems on our roster. I love Chandler and what he brings to a team. If we can sign/trade for a star/fringe star then having Chandler could pay huge dividends. Right now I think we are telling a good story of what he brings to our team but truth is it doesn't make sense having him on our team unless we are pushing to move up the ranks.

[JTrain]

Sports weren't created to make us ultra analytical lifeless beings, they were made to bring us together and enjoy shared experiences... both good and bad.

So what's the issue with those energetically enjoying the shared bad?

[batsmasher]

Sports weren't created to make us ultra analytical lifeless beings, they were made to bring us together and enjoy shared experiences... both good and bad.

So what's the issue with those energetically enjoying the shared bad?

Nothing.... just make sure you enjoy the good too. Because there is a lot of good about this team at the moment.

[NTB]

Sports weren't created to make us ultra analytical lifeless beings, they were made to bring us together and enjoy shared experiences... both good and bad.

So what's the issue with those energetically enjoying the shared bad?

Nothing.... just make sure you enjoy the good too. Because there is a lot of good about this team at the moment.

I think his point is that some people in here only focuses to negative things. And I agree with him. IDK why but some people are being negative just for being negative.

[Mulhollanddrive]

North Korea are undefeated, I bet their message board is more positive.

[MrMiyagi]

So what's the issue with those energetically enjoying the shared bad?

Nothing.... just make sure you enjoy the good too. Because there is a lot of good about this team at the moment.

I think his point is that some people in here only focuses to negative things. And I agree with him. IDK why but some people are being negative just for being negative.

If we were like the Knicks last season, then I could see reasoning for the woe and I would likely join in, but there is a lot to like about this team.

[NavLDO]

I just wanted to show the last 10 drafts (not counting 2015) to show how much of a 'crap shoot' it really is. Just 'unhide' the spoiler. Sure, your chances are better drafting in the top 5 than later than 5th, but considering the lottery, it's no guarantee if you tank, you come away with a top 5 pick, but still, out of 50 players selected in the top 5, only 16 have been All-star/All-NBA types, and 9 have come from players selected 6-15, but those numbers should be a bit higher, due to 2013/2014 players yet to be established.

I like how you put " 6 - 15" , when truthfully, only ONE all-star fell out of the top 10, and that was Clay Thompson, with the 11th pick. I hate to break it to you, but the Suns are not drafting in the top 10, so the chances they draft an all-star are still very low. You are trying to prove the draft is a crap shoot, but you are providing proof that no all-star has been drafted 12th through 15th from 2005 to 2014.

So in the last 10 years, only one all-star has fallen out of the top 10, and he was taken with the 11th pick. How is this supposed to make Suns fan feel better about always drafting with the 13th and 14th picks? I must have missed something...

I only used Top 5, as that is the area everyone clamors about. And I only used 6-15, vice 6-60, as picking late lotto is the area where everyone here is basing the premise of tread-milling. There are plenty of All-NBA types 16-60 in those years. Also understand, that if we just go ONE year back to 2004, selected 15th was Al Jefferson, an All-NBAer.

Then, let's look at 12-20 picks from 2012 back--2012-14th--John Henson(head case but great talent); 2011-15th--Kawhi Leonard Finals MVP; 2010-15th--Larry Sanders (injuries); 2009-17th--Jrue Holiday; 19th--Jeff Teague; 2008-17th--Roy Hibbert, 2005-17th--Danny Grangr, etc.

So I get your point, but limiting the pick range to 4 picks outside the top 5 (12-15), regardless of where, you'll find scarcity over a 10 year range.

And BTW, I'd like to add to the discussion regarding worst drafts, a nomination of the 2000 draft was one of the worst drafts ever.

[bwgood77]

^ I was referring to the top 15, as he posted in his list. I am well aware that once in awhile, all-stars slip into the late first round. My whole point is, rarely do they end up end up at the 13th and 14th spots.

Is there a protection against the players that are drafted 15-60? Are they off limits from being selected in the lottery? That was my whole point. And therefore- while all star calibers are rarely selected in that range, it is a bit of an arbitrary statistic; what it takes is creative scouting and good player development. For example, while premature I don't think its farfetched to predict T.J. Warren as a top 5 player in the 2015 draft with all star potential.

No, you can not take someone expected to go in the late first at 13 or 14.

[bwgood77]

I would define a treadmill team as a team that has been stuck in a position for multiple years and have no real way to get any better.. Suns have assets to make trades to improve. And could also have the ability to fall into the Top 10 pick range. The west is super competitive as we all know and the teams below us(theoretically) could easily pass us. Like the Timberwolves, Lakers, Jazz, Kings.

I would say the Chandler signing definitely puts us on track to be a treadmill team. I don't think he does enough to elevate us into a real playoff team but with him present it makes it much harder to lose a lot of games. This is of course barring injury problems on our roster. I love Chandler and what he brings to a team. If we can sign/trade for a star/fringe star then having Chandler could pay huge dividends. Right now I think we are telling a good story of what he brings to our team but truth is it doesn't make sense having him on our team unless we are pushing to move up the ranks.

I think our 2010, 2011, and 2012 off seasons we were making tread mill type of moves. Then in 2013 we hopped off the treadmill to embrace a full rebuild, bringing in a rookie coach, GM and flipping our vets for picks. Those were not treadmill moves. Then in the 2014 off season we let another vet go and signed a younger player, which is a rebuilding move. Too many, including me, the IT signing was a mistake, and it hurt us in multiple ways. In 2015, we trade yet ANOTHER vet (Dragic) and replaced him with a younger player (Knight), coming off his rookie contract, and signed ANOTHER player coming off his rookie contract (Telly). With all these younger players, knowing our team was missing a vocal leader, we brought in a classy veteran leader (Chandler) at a position where we needed depth.

Now I think there is a good chance that we end up yet again picking in around the same spot next year even though I expect our record to improve, so one could definitely view that as being on the treadmill and not going anywhere, yet as long as we improve and continue to add more young talent, we really mostly only have young talent that will probably peak in 4-6 years.

I understand that signing Tyson Chandler can easily be viewed as a treadmill type move, if one didn't understand the vast need for leadership and maturity the team needed, but pretty much every other signing we have made in the last two years has been trading out older guys for younger guys with upside.

Treadmill imo is when you are signing and starting a bunch of 30 year old vets to try and make the playoffs in an ill fated attempt to be relevant, with no real long term plan. I think it has probably been difficult to work with Sarver, as he makes it such a huge priority to just make the playoffs, but given those circumstances, I think McD has made pretty good to really good moves, other than the IT and possibly Tolliver signings.

But even if you look at the IT signing in the grand scheme of things, it basically allowed us to move on from Goran to go younger, which is the opposite of treadmill. I hated to see Goran go, but keeping him is definitely more of a treadmill move than getting two picks and signing a younger guy with upside to replace him. And then the IT signing also netted us a first round pick.

So even though signing IT became kind of a nightmare to chemistry and for Dragic, the result is adding three first rounders and signing a younger near all star as the replacement.

So I can't view too much of what has gone on as treadmill type moves. Every move other than Chandler is a rebuild move, and it is clear why we needed a guy like Chandler who will play a big part in the growth of our young team.

[Scutt]

I just wanted to show the last 10 drafts (not counting 2015) to show how much of a 'crap shoot' it really is. Just 'unhide' the spoiler. Sure, your chances are better drafting in the top 5 than later than 5th, but considering the lottery, it's no guarantee if you tank, you come away with a top 5 pick, but still, out of 50 players selected in the top 5, only 16 have been All-star/All-NBA types, and 9 have come from players selected 6-15, but those numbers should be a bit higher, due to 2013/2014 players yet to be established.

I like how you put " 6 - 15" , when truthfully, only ONE all-star fell out of the top 10, and that was Clay Thompson, with the 11th pick. I hate to break it to you, but the Suns are not drafting in the top 10, so the chances they draft an all-star are still very low. You are trying to prove the draft is a crap shoot, but you are providing proof that no all-star has been drafted 12th through 15th from 2005 to 2014.

So in the last 10 years, only one all-star has fallen out of the top 10, and he was taken with the 11th pick. How is this supposed to make Suns fan feel better about always drafting with the 13th and 14th picks? I must have missed something...

I only used Top 5, as that is the area everyone clamors about. And I only used 6-15, vice 6-60, as picking late lotto is the area where everyone here is basing the premise of tread-milling. There are plenty of All-NBA types 16-60 in those years. Also understand, that if we just go ONE year back to 2004, selected 15th was Al Jefferson, an All-NBAer.

Then, let's look at 12-20 picks from 2012 back--2012-14th--John Henson(head case but great talent); 2011-15th--Kawhi Leonard Finals MVP; 2010-15th--Larry Sanders (injuries); 2009-17th--Jrue Holiday; 19th--Jeff Teague; 2008-17th--Roy Hibbert, 2005-17th--Danny Grangr, etc.

So I get your point, but limiting the pick range to 4 picks outside the top 5 (12-15), regardless of where, you'll find scarcity over a 10 year range.

And BTW, I'd like to add to the discussion regarding worst drafts, a nomination of the 2000 draft was one of the worst drafts ever.

It took Al Jefferson 10 seasons to make an All-NBA 3rd team once. The guy isn't exactly known for helping his team win either, and he was drafted straight out of high school. You can throw names out all you want, but it is not going to change my mind that the Suns are doing themselves no favors in drafting with the 13th or 14th pick every year. Drafting at those spots, you are usually lucky if the guy becomes a role player, let alone a star. Perennial all-star talent rarely falls out of the top 5, let alone the top 10.

The Suns still lack any all-stars and that is what they need if they want to really be competitive. I want the front office to acknowledge this, and stop spouting, "we just need a couple of vets to push us over the hump and into the playoffs". I want them to build a competitive team that is sustainable for the long term. That is what I was told was going to happen when McD came aboard, and so far, they seem more concerned with making the 8th seed and winning as many games in the now, then building for the long term.

It certainly doesn't help, when other Suns fans justify our middle of the pack approach with something like, "Well, the draft is a crap shoot anyway, so it doesn't matter where we pick.' Every year the Suns do not have an all-star on their roster, and are not picking in the top 10, I would like to see them at least make an effort to move up in the draft. I want to see them develop high potential young players, that will be apart of the next great Suns team, not bring in guys like PJ Tucker, Gerald Green, and Sonny Weems every year, to let them have 2nd chances and get a few extra wins.

To be fair though, bringing in Weems, to take minutes from Booker and Goodwin, is the one move that really bothered me this off-season. I didn't like the Chandler signing at first, but I have warmed up to it. I want to see Len get to develop his offensive game with the 2nd unit. He would not get that chance with the starters and it takes the pressure off him as the only big on the team.

[NavLDO]

I like how you put " 6 - 15" , when truthfully, only ONE all-star fell out of the top 10, and that was Clay Thompson, with the 11th pick. I hate to break it to you, but the Suns are not drafting in the top 10, so the chances they draft an all-star are still very low. You are trying to prove the draft is a crap shoot, but you are providing proof that no all-star has been drafted 12th through 15th from 2005 to 2014.

So in the last 10 years, only one all-star has fallen out of the top 10, and he was taken with the 11th pick. How is this supposed to make Suns fan feel better about always drafting with the 13th and 14th picks? I must have missed something...

I only used Top 5, as that is the area everyone clamors about. And I only used 6-15, vice 6-60, as picking late lotto is the area where everyone here is basing the premise of tread-milling. There are plenty of All-NBA types 16-60 in those years. Also understand, that if we just go ONE year back to 2004, selected 15th was Al Jefferson, an All-NBAer.

Then, let's look at 12-20 picks from 2012 back--2012-14th--John Henson(head case but great talent); 2011-15th--Kawhi Leonard Finals MVP; 2010-15th--Larry Sanders (injuries); 2009-17th--Jrue Holiday; 19th--Jeff Teague; 2008-17th--Roy Hibbert, 2005-17th--Danny Grangr, etc.

So I get your point, but limiting the pick range to 4 picks outside the top 5 (12-15), regardless of where, you'll find scarcity over a 10 year range.

And BTW, I'd like to add to the discussion regarding worst drafts, a nomination of the 2000 draft was one of the worst drafts ever.

It took Al Jefferson 10 seasons to make an All-NBA 3rd team once. The guy isn't exactly known for helping his team win either, and he was drafted straight out of high school. You can throw names out all you want, but it is not going to change my mind that the Suns are doing themselves no favors in drafting with the 13th or 14th pick every year. Drafting at those spots, you are usually lucky if the guy becomes a role player, let alone a star. Perennial all-star talent rarely falls out of the top 5, let alone the top 10.

The Suns still lack any all-stars and that is what they need if they want to really be competitive. I want the front office to acknowledge this, and stop spouting, "we just need a couple of vets to push us over the hump and into the playoffs". I want them to build a competitive team that is sustainable for the long term. That is what I was told was going to happen when McD came aboard, and so far, they seem more concerned with making the 8th seed and winning as many games in the now, then building for the long term.

It certainly doesn't help, when other Suns fans justify our middle of the pack approach with something like, "Well, the draft is a crap shoot anyway, so it doesn't matter where we pick.' Every year the Suns do not have an all-star on their roster, and are not picking in the top 10, I would like to see them at least make an effort to move up in the draft. I want to see them develop high potential young players, that will be apart of the next great Suns team, not bring in guys like PJ Tucker, Gerald Green, and Sonny Weems every year, to let them have 2nd chances and get a few extra wins. To be fair though, bringing in Weems, to take minutes from Booker and Goodwin, is the one move that really bothered me this off-season. I didn't like the Chandler signing at first, but I have warmed up to it. I want to see Len get to develop his offensive game with the 2nd unit. He would not get that chance with the starters and it takes the pressure off him as the only big on the team.

So, now we're qualifying the All-NBAers? OK, well how many weren't All-NBA/All-Star that do help their teams?

And now you are claiming that they haven't tried to trade into the top-10? How do you know? And let me guess, you want them to trade the very trash you claim that don't help us like Tucker, Green, etc. to get that top 10 pick, right? We don't want them, but another team would, right? Please, enlighten us, who exactly would you like to trade to get that pick, exactly.

How many top 10 picks would you like the Suns to make. We have one on our roster already--I guess that's not enough. We should get 5 top 10 picks, right? Then we are assured of winning like Minnesota and Philly, right? I mean, it's simple, because the 30% chance or so of that pick becoming an All-Star will ensure us of a title. Let's tank year after year until we get that championship winner. Heck, if it's that easy, why doesn't every team do it? Just out of curiosity, how many Top 10 picks did we make to get into the '93 Finals, exactly? Ed Pinckney, 10th-'85; William Bedford, 6th-'86; Armon Gilliam, 2nd-'87; Tim Perry, 7th-88--All critical pieces to that run...oh, wait, no, they weren't? You mean Dan Majerle, drafted 14th and Cedric Ceballos, drafted 48th, and guys we traded for in KJ and Barkley , and some others got us there? It's not all where you draft, but how the team is managed, and you and others have given up hope after 2 seasons, already. I can't believe we didn't challenge for the NBA Championship last season--how ridiculous, let's fire them all!!

And why bother giving minutes to Goodwin or Booker or Warren, since they aren't top 10 picks, they are failures anyway. I'm shocked NBA teams haven't knocked down your door trying to sign you up as a GM, since you obviously know more than McD and know how to build a winner.

[Moochthemonkey]

The Suns still lack any all-stars and that is what they need if they want to really be competitive. I want the front office to acknowledge this, and stop spouting, "we just need a couple of vets to push us over the hump and into the playoffs". I want them to build a competitive team that is sustainable for the long term. That is what I was told was going to happen when McD came aboard, and so far, they seem more concerned with making the 8th seed and winning as many games in the now, then building for the long term.


It certainly doesn't help, when other Suns fans justify our middle of the pack approach with something like, "Well, the draft is a crap shoot anyway, so it doesn't matter where we pick.' Every year the Suns do not have an all-star on their roster, and are not picking in the top 10, I would like to see them at least make an effort to move up in the draft. I want to see them develop high potential young players, that will be apart of the next great Suns team, not bring in guys like PJ Tucker, Gerald Green, and Sonny Weems every year, to let them have 2nd chances and get a few extra wins. To be fair though, bringing in Weems, to take minutes from Booker and Goodwin, is the one move that really bothered me this off-season. I didn't like the Chandler signing at first, but I have warmed up to it. I want to see Len get to develop his offensive game with the 2nd unit. He would not get that chance with the starters and it takes the pressure off him as the only big on the team.

I think you are too hasty in writing off what can become of Bledsoe, Knight, Len, and Warren. No one will deny that the better the draft pick the more likely you are acquire a better potential player, but at the end of the day, evidence from past drafts suggests that the draft is indeed a crap shoot. Proven talent always trumps unproven talent. And without fielding a decent team there is little to no chance the Suns would of even had a chance in the Aldridge (a proven player) sweepstakes.

Secondly, it was indeed McD's plan to build a sustainable, competitive team when he first joined. So they over achieved when he was first here. In anything in life, you don't say "uh oh guys we better slow down with our improvements, we are ahead of schedule". (It's not like that 2014 team had peaked and the core was old players like it was with Nash and Hill either.) What you do from here is build from success. That's starts with making the playoffs. Rarely does a team leapfrog from being a 9th-10th seed to a contender. Sure McD made some questionable, detrimental moves along the way. And perhaps he should have never traded for Knight, and started anew this season.

And your claim that bringing in PJ Tucker and Gerald Green was done to get a few extra wins is false if not laughable- PJ Tucker was brought in before McD and was here on a minimum deal with a team option at the second year. He probably wasn't even projected to be a rotation player at first. Gerald Green and Plumlee were traded for Scola, all part of the plan to "clear house" in order to rebuild and accumulate draft picks. I will agree with you though on your sentiments regarding Weems, though I'm sure your opinion will take a 180 when he eventually end's up taking Tucker's minutes at SF.

[Scutt]

I think you are too hasty in writing off what can become of Bledsoe, Knight, Len, and Warren. No one will deny that the better the draft pick the more likely you are acquire a better potential player, but at the end of the day, evidence from past drafts suggests that the draft is indeed a crap shoot. Proven talent always trumps unproven talent. And without fielding a decent team there is little to no chance the Suns would of even had a chance in the Aldridge (a proven player) sweepstakes.

Secondly, it was indeed McD's plan to build a sustainable, competitive team when he first joined. So they over achieved when he was first here. In anything in life, you don't say "uh oh guys we better slow down with our improvements, we are ahead of schedule". (It's not like that 2014 team had peaked and the core was old players like it was with Nash and Hill either.) What you do from here is build from success. That's starts with making the playoffs. Rarely does a team leapfrog from being a 9th-10th seed to a contender. Sure McD made some questionable, detrimental moves along the way. And perhaps he should have never traded for Knight, and started anew this season.

And your claim that bringing in PJ Tucker and Gerald Green was done to get a few extra wins is false if not laughable- PJ Tucker was brought in before McD and was here on a minimum deal with a team option at the second year. He probably wasn't even projected to be a rotation player at first. Gerald Green and Plumlee were traded for Scola, all part of the plan to "clear house" in order to rebuild and accumulate draft picks. I will agree with you though on your sentiments regarding Weems, though I'm sure your opinion will take a 180 when he eventually end's up taking Tucker's minutes at SF.

How are the Suns building off the success of the 2014 season? The majority of the rotation players are not even on the team anymore. I don't see how they are building anything, with constant roster turnover every year. A year ago, people were saying Dragic was part of the Suns "core", and now he is gone. Who is our core? Bledsoe, Len, Knight, and Warren? Knight and Warren are unknowns at this point. Warren wasn't a rotation player last year. Knight played only a handful of games last year with us, and will be playing out of position with Bledsoe. Len played seemingly well last year, but was just demoted to the bench in favor of Tyson Chandler. Then there is Bledsoe, who put up decent stats, but most Suns fans seem to want him gone.

I am not writing off Len, Warren, or Goodwin. They are the only reason I watch the Suns, I want to see them play in the rotation. I don't want to see their minutes limited, just because the Suns front office really wants to make the 8th seed this year, and has to play Tucker, Weems, and Chandler heavy minutes, in order to simply get close.

As for Weems getting minutes at SF, as long as Tucker is gone, I am all for it. I don't want to see Warren or Goodwin riding the bench all year again. I want to see what we have in them.

[Moochthemonkey]

How are the Suns building off the success of the 2014 season?

Like I said, McD has made questionable moves- but I was moreso referring to the direction of staying relative competitive (aiming to make the playoffs) and adding pieces like Chandler instead of "bottoming out" until we acquire multiple top 5 picks, presuming that's what you want from reading your posts.

I am not writing off Len, Warren, or Goodwin.

Above you implied that they are not all star potential. They are largely unknown, like you said, but rarely do players straight out of the demonstrate that they have clear all star potential.

[Scutt]

^ I don't want the Suns to tank or bottom out at this point. They have already committed themselves to trying to compete, by locking up Bledsoe, Knight, and Chandler. I was just reiterating the point that picking 13th and 14th every year in the draft significantly decreases your chances at landing a star that you can build around, the one thing the Suns really need. If I had my choice in rebuilding a team in a smaller market like Phoenix, I would build from the draft, but its obvious the Suns feel like they can do what Houston did. So far, they have struck out on all their opportunities to bring in a disgruntled star though.

I did not imply that Len, Warren, and Goodwin do not have all-star potential. All I said was the Suns have no all-stars and that after the top 10, the chances of drafting one goes down considerably. Obviously, stars do slip once in awhile, and being a Suns fan, I have got my fingers crossed that one of Warren, Booker, or Goodwin defy the odds, but I am realistic too. I have not seen enough of Booker, and Goodwin and Warren both have serious holes in their games still. I think Alex Len has a ton of potential, as long as he can stay healthy. Again, I want to see those guys play. The Suns drafted them, so I want them to do well, but I know the odds are against them, in terms of becoming all stars. Especially if they are going to lose minutes to veterans because getting the 8th seed is more important to the front office, than their development is.

[suns91fan]

^ I don't want the Suns to tank or bottom out at this point. They have already committed themselves to trying to compete, by locking up Bledsoe, Knight, and Chandler. I was just reiterating the point that picking 13th and 14th every year in the draft significantly decreases your chances at landing a star that you can build around, the one thing the Suns really need. If I had my choice in rebuilding a team in a smaller market like Phoenix, I would build from the draft, but its obvious the Suns feel like they can do what Houston did. So far, they have struck out on all their opportunities to bring in a disgruntled star though.

I did not imply that Len, Warren, and Goodwin do not have all-star potential. All I said was the Suns have no all-stars and that after the top 10, the chances of drafting one goes down considerably. Obviously, stars do slip once in awhile, and being a Suns fan, I have got my fingers crossed that one of Warren, Booker, or Goodwin defy the odds, but I am realistic too. I have not seen enough of Booker, and Goodwin and Warren both have serious holes in their games still. I think Alex Len has a ton of potential, as long as he can stay healthy. Again, I want to see those guys play. The Suns drafted them, so I want them to do well, but I know the odds are against them, in terms of becoming all stars. Especially if they are going to lose minutes to veterans because getting the 8th seed is more important to the front office, than their development is.

Concerning your last sentence. I said this once before, this is not NBA2K. Players do not magically improve by given tons of minutes in games. Tons of practice is what makes them better. Minutes in games help with confidence and experience. 20 minutes per game that Len (since i assume this is mostly about him and Chandler) has been getting in the past seasons is more than enough to cover the second part. What you want, is him getting tons of minutes to inflate his stats, which will in return make an illusion that he improved. That is not development, that is showcasing. When it comes to development, Len will likely develop more this season, than in the previous two combined.

Isn't the example of Goodwin and this year's Summer League enough to prove my point? He barely even played any meaningful minutes for the Suns last two seasons, but somehow his jump shot is actually looking a lot better than before. Did playing 30 minutes per game for the Suns helped him with that, or was it just him working extremely hard on fixing that part of his game?