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Flat Circle?

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Flat Circle? 

Post#1 » by boomershadow » Mon Jul 27, 2015 5:28 pm

http://hardwoodparoxysm.com/2015/07/27/time-is-a-flat-circle-and-so-are-the-indiana-pacers/

Fourty-four games into the 2010-11 season, the Indiana Pacers were moving backwards. They had won just 17 games–a .386 win percentage. This was head coach Jim O’Brien’s fourth season with the team and he had yet to lead Indiana to a .500 record. At this point, the Pacers were playing at the league’s seventh-fastest pace, attempting the league’s third-most three-pointers per game. After playing just 511 minutes as a rookie and battling through an ear infection that led to vertigo, second-year forward Tyler Hansbrough was still largely chained to the bench, having started just 10 games and averaging just 16.0 minutes per game. O’Brien favored shooting in the frontcourt and eight of his 10 most-used lineups featured Josh McRoberts, Danny Granger or James Posey at power forward.

The team felt utterly stagnant, over-matched in the talent department. With nothing expressly creative in their system on offense or defense, the appearance was of a team just pressing as hard as it could to out-run and out-shoot their opponents–Seven Seconds or Less, without Steve Nash and with a heaping helping of desperation. The result was the .386 win percentage I mentioned above.

So the Pacers did what bad teams do when the badness is too much to bear–they fired their coach. Assistant Frank Vogel was promoted to replace O’Brien. He took things in a very different direction. Indiana slowed the pace, cut their three-point attempts, began pounding the ball into Hansbrough and Hibbert on the interior, and punishing their opponents’ on the offensive glass. It was good enough to get the Pacers a 20-18 finish to the season and a playoff appearance, where they lost a quietly competitive five-game series to the top-seeded Chicago Bulls.

You can probably pick the story up here on your own. As the rest of the league zigged towards spacing and shooting, the Pacers continued doubling-down on Vogel’s original zag. The three-point shooting faded out of their frontcourt rotation and David West arrived to become part of the foundation. Indiana become increasingly isolated on an island of smashmouth, interior-focused, defensive grinding. The results were great, bordering on the fantastic. The Pacers won better than .600 percent of their games in each of Vogel’s first three full seasons, with two trips to the Eastern Conference Finals.

However, all three of those seasons ended the same way–a playoff elimination at the hands of LeBron James and the Miami Heat. Ironically, all three of those losses could also be traced to the same fundamental issues the Pacers tried to address with their commitment to size, strength and physical defense. They were stagnant, over-matched in the talent department and with nothing expressly creative in their offensive or defensive systems to turn to, they were left trying to brutishly force their way through the brick wall that was the Heat.

With an ugly, injury-riddled 2014-15 season behind them, the Pacers are again looking to change. At his end-of-season press conference, Larry Bird talked about shaking up the team’s style of play (h/t Candace Buckner, The Indianapolis Star):

“I was talking to coach earlier; we’d like to play a little faster tempo,” Bird said. “And that means we’ve got to run a little faster, maybe at times play a little smaller. We just got into it, so I don’t know what style, but we’d like to change it a little bit. … But I would like to score more points, and to do that, you’ve got to run.”
Roy Hibbert and David West are gone and it appears that Paul George may be the Pacers’ new power forward. Indiana’s first round draft pick was Myles Turner, a center whose two most notable skills are protecting the rim and hitting outside jumpers. By every indication, the Pacers are about to begin chasing the NBA’s cool kids (leaving the Memphis Grizzlies alone at the “big kids” table), going small, up-tempo, and flexible.

Time is a flat circle and so are the Indiana Pacers.

The past few seasons have, mostly, been a great stretch for Indiana. Vogel’s first three seasons were the team’s best three-year run since Bird was coaching. They have consistently been among the Eastern Conference’s elite and their playoff matchups with the Heat were ultra-competitive, rivalry-birthing, heavyweight bouts. Still, there is a nagging frustration in the thought that the whole era may turn out to be an interruption, that the Pacers are not just back to the point of needing to reshape their identity, but that they may also be trying on an identity that they were already working with.

To be clear, the O’Brien Pacers were not the Budenholzer Hawks or the Kerr Warriors. Even with their faster pace and focus on spacing, they never pushed their offensive efficiency past league average. Their defense was generally better than their offense, but it was never much to write home about either–more of a mismash of “just good enough” efforts than anything that made intentional use of speed and interchangeability the way the Warriors did this season. But I can’t help but wonder what would have happened if Vogel hadn’t been able to get the Pacers into the playoffs that first season. What if success with his “pound the ball inside” philosophy had been just a little bit slower in coming. Perhaps he would have had to search out strategic variety a little sooner. Perhaps there wouldn’t have been such a strongly perceived distinction between O’Brien’s style (bad) and Vogel’s new initiative (good). Maybe, just maybe, we could have spent the past four seasons watching the Pacers taking the best of both worlds in trying to get around the Heat, instead of trying to bulldoze through them.

The past is not just in the past for Indiana, it’s the future. The basic underpinnings of what O’Brien tried to do with the team–speed, space, shooting–are now the NBA’s style du’jour and the Pacers will apparently be picking them up and trying to do a little more with them than they did the last time around. Still facing a talent deficit against some of the other top teams in the Eastern Conference, the plan appears to be addressing the stagnation and lack of systemic creativity.

By all indications, playing George at power forward is the opening move in their plan. It’s a little concerning that they’d be asking him to play against bigger and stronger players, given that when the season starts he’ll be just over a year removed from one of the ugliest on-court injuries we’ve ever seen. But at some point you have to trust him and his leg. For his part, George appears up for the challenge, telling The Indianapolis Star’s Dana Hunsinger Benbow, “I’ll be ready for it. I’m working on making that change and being prepared to play some forward this year,” George said Thursday. “I understand what Larry (Bird) wants as far as playing the faster pace. I mean, I’m for it. That’s the way the league is going nowadays.”

Thinking about what George looks like as a power forward is mostly an exercise in imagination. According to Basketball-Reference’s position estimates, he has never played more than one percent of his minutes at power forward in any of his five seasons. There is really no sample to look at of him doing power forward-ish things. Which may be fine because what the Pacers would like him to do as a power forward may not be that different from what he does normally. This move is not an invitation for him to set up on offense with his back to the basket. He is best slashing and shooting and Indiana will (hopefully) be looking for a way to keep him doing those things, gaining an advantage by doing them against different defenders (and with more shooting around him).

To thoughtfully consider what George might look like as a power forward, Danny Granger might be the best template. The two best seasons of Granger’s career came from 2008-10, playing for O’Brien in Indiana. In both of those seasons he played about a quarter of his minutes at power forward, again according to Basketball-Reference’s position estimates. Granger’s three-point rate and free throw rate both peaked in those two seasons. He bombed away from the outside, attacked off the dribble and exploited mismatches in the low post. With the floor spread around him, he was able to be the offense’s focal point from wherever the defense appeared weakest.

One of the first things I ever wrote on the internet, five years ago now, was a piece at Indy Cornrows about how much better the Pacers were with Granger at power forward. The analysis looked back at the 2009-10 season, pointing out that Indiana was much more efficient on both offense and defense when Granger played power forward, and suggested that the team play small much more often. Advocating that strategy, five years ago, felt like a wildly unconventional take. Thinking about the same strategy now, with Paul George, feels like an long overdo no-brainer.

There are so many offensive similarities between Granger and George you can almost see the circular arc of time connecting them. There are all sorts of metaphysical connections between the Pacers today and the Pacers that Vogel inherited (can we get a Troy Murphy comeback, please!). Indiana is not reductively trying to turn back the clock to the system that O’Brien ran. Instead they seem willing to accept that the values he espoused might have some utility for them, which feels weird after so much time pushing those elements away for fear of them sapping their strength of undermining their size. They are ready to try something old and remake it as something new. Part of me hopes they haven’t waited too long for this gambit or missed an opportunity. But then I remember that time is a flat circle and so are the Indiana Pacers.


Thoughts? Vogel did work for Jim O'Brien quite awhile, even before coming to Indiana. At first, there was some surprise that the style that Frank coached was so different from the style we had been playing. Will this new style we have been hearing about be more similar to the Jim O'Brien Pacers than we realized?
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Re: Flat Circle? 

Post#2 » by Miller4ever » Mon Jul 27, 2015 6:06 pm

Jim O'Brien's system could net some great offensive production when it worked (54 point near-perfect 3rd, anyone?) I think we'll have a stronger defensive core and more talent than those teams. If Granger's numbers got better at the PF, then George might be even better than that, being a better passer and whatnot. I hope he regains his shooting touch from the beginning of '13-'14.

Jim O'Brien's problem was not the offensive scheme. It just allowed a low-talent, low-morale team to random out some wins in an era when space-and-pace wasn't a fully actualized strategy.
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Re: Flat Circle? 

Post#3 » by Wizop » Mon Jul 27, 2015 6:45 pm

Slick once said the secret of coaching is to know when to kiss them and when to kick them in the butt. Discussing the O'Brien/Vogel change without mentioning O'Brien's constant criticism or Vogel's constant public optimism misses a lot.

Also, missing was a mention of the Granger injury in the ECF. We had the Heat on the ropes before the injury.

And which is the chicken and which is the egg - did we move on from Hibbert to get faster, or did we decide to get faster knowing we had to move on from Hibbert? It was probably a little bit of both. I like Roy but he's his own worst enemy. I hope he stops thinking so much in LA.
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Re: Flat Circle? 

Post#4 » by Scoot McGroot » Mon Jul 27, 2015 6:50 pm

Interesting article, but this one really has me confused:
But I can’t help but wonder what would have happened if Vogel hadn’t been able to get the Pacers into the playoffs that first season. What if success with his “pound the ball inside” philosophy had been just a little bit slower in coming. Perhaps he would have had to search out strategic variety a little sooner.

I mean, if Vogel hadn't been able to get the Pacers into the playoffs that first season, it's infinitely likely he wouldn't have gotten the permanent job. An awful lot would have gone differently.


Otherwise, I think over the last 5-7 years, we've simply tried to put out the best roster that we could actually acquire, or had on hand. O'Brien tortured guys like Hibbert. Vogel put them in positions to succeed. Then, as we added David West, the best roster construction revolved around he and Hibbert down low. After West opted out, and Hibbert had kind of worked his way out of favor and a split was deemed mutually beneficial, this current construction is likely the best amalgamation we could've realistically hoped for. We weren't going to get Aldridge or Jordan. Instead, we went out and got pieces that we could realistically acquire. We'll see what happens, but at each moment in time, you just have to look at where you are and where you could be, and operate in that framework.


But ultimately, I think the biggest mis-giving of the article is that O'Brien was a jerk and his players didn't really want to play for him. Even if his system had some basis in hope, it simply couldn't be successful under him.
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Re: Flat Circle? 

Post#5 » by Scoot McGroot » Mon Jul 27, 2015 6:51 pm

Wizop wrote:And which is the chicken and which is the egg - did we move on from Hibbert to get faster, or did we decide to get faster knowing we had to move on from Hibbert? It was probably a little bit of both.


Good question and point.
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Re: Flat Circle? 

Post#6 » by SmashMouthRod » Mon Jul 27, 2015 7:46 pm

I personally think the O'Brien years were a double negative. One is that the roster wasnt good enough to win playing his up and down style. Two he wasnt able, or was just too arrogant to adjust his coaching style to better fit the players on the roster. Frank on the other hand (a younger guy) was/is a lot more flexible and/or less set in his ways. I believe thats why the team instantly turned around under him. I also believe he will be fine coaching in an uptempo style. I remember Frank visited with Tom Crean and several other top college coaches during an off-season to get advice. That was a moment I knew he was primed to get better as a coach. I would bet he never stopped confiding in successful veteran coaches. I trust that the team is in good hands right now. This team has a lot more athleticism and talent than the O'Brien teams had. The key guys also have deep playoff experience and know what it takes to win. So this situation is all together different.
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Re: Flat Circle? 

Post#7 » by Wizop » Mon Jul 27, 2015 7:58 pm

Scoot McGroot wrote:But ultimately, I think the biggest mis-giving of the article is that O'Brien was a jerk and his players didn't really want to play for him. Even if his system had some basis in hope, it simply couldn't be successful under him.


I met him several times. He had a special needs daughter and someone we know who lived near him became friends with them after helping his daughter connect with the services she needed. Off the bench, he wasn't a jerk at all. He was though one of those old school coaches who learned only to yell. Bobby Knight and Bill Polian were from that school too. Never met Knight but I can tell you that Polian was gracious away from the game even though his temper as a manager was well known.

bottom line, O'Brien wasn't a jerk but I agree 100% that what is missing from the article is a recognition of his abrasive coaching style contrasted with Vogel's warmth.
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Re: Flat Circle? 

Post#8 » by Scoot McGroot » Mon Jul 27, 2015 9:16 pm

Wizop wrote:
Scoot McGroot wrote:But ultimately, I think the biggest mis-giving of the article is that O'Brien was a jerk and his players didn't really want to play for him. Even if his system had some basis in hope, it simply couldn't be successful under him.


I met him several times. He had a special needs daughter and someone we know who lived near him became friends with them after helping his daughter connect with the services she needed. Off the bench, he wasn't a jerk at all. He was though one of those old school coaches who learned only to yell. Bobby Knight and Bill Polian were from that school too. Never met Knight but I can tell you that Polian was gracious away from the game even though his temper as a manager was well known.

bottom line, O'Brien wasn't a jerk but I agree 100% that what is missing from the article is a recognition of his abrasive coaching style contrasted with Vogel's warmth.



Yeah. I'm sorry. I meant solely in his locker room management and with his players. Solely that. He was a jerk. If he was a winner, we'd call it old school. Since he wasn't a winner, he's a jerk.

Knights also a jerk off the court too. He's the kind of guy that will be warm and thoughtful about people he likes and that are meek and humble to him. If you don't bow at his feet, he's a jerk who loves to rub your nose in the dirt.
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Re: Flat Circle? 

Post#9 » by Wizop » Mon Jul 27, 2015 9:20 pm

Scoot, we're in full agreement here.
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Re: Flat Circle? 

Post#10 » by Scoot McGroot » Mon Jul 27, 2015 10:56 pm

Wizop wrote:Scoot, we're in full agreement here.


Yeah, I can look at my feelings for Bob Knight as my maturation as a sports fan. As I grew older, my feelings for him diminished to the point where I now recognize he's just a jerk. A jerk that won a lot of games and a couple championships, but a jerk, nonetheless.
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Re: Flat Circle? 

Post#11 » by EuroPacer » Tue Jul 28, 2015 8:02 am

I wouldn't template the coming season on the o'Brien years, in my opinion it is a pointless exercise to do so, the league has changed and, more significantly, we have changed. Even without Roy and DW there is now a core of players who have seen the play-offs regularly, we have experience mixed with youngsters. But what we don't have is any inkling of how the team will be set up to play, I have a worrying feeling that Vogel doesn't yet either...
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Re: Flat Circle? 

Post#12 » by 8305 » Tue Jul 28, 2015 5:25 pm

I think O'Brien was asked to play a style of basketball he didn't have the personnel to play. He had some guys who could hit the 3 but overall the team was slow and not particularly athletic. This team is clearly more athletic and has several alpha dog type players that team lacked. I'm not put off by the lack of success of O'Brien's teams had and any parallels that otherwise might be drawn between the era's of Pacer basketball.
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Re: Flat Circle? 

Post#13 » by Wizop » Tue Jul 28, 2015 5:58 pm

8305 wrote:I think O'Brien was asked to play a style of basketball he didn't have the personnel to play.


asked? I thought he was one of those coaches who brings his own playbook and expects the front office to get the right kind of players to fit his system. could be wrong though. I once sat next to him at a charity event and told him I thought Hibbert could get triple doubles if he played high post and he replied that Roy wants to play low post which suggested he did talk to his players about style.

of course that's ancient history. Vogel started as a video intern and still watches a lot of tape. the team also has people doing analytics which wasn't in vogue in O'Brien's day if it even existed. I don't think Vogel will try to put round pegs in square holes.
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Re: Flat Circle? 

Post#14 » by Scoot McGroot » Tue Jul 28, 2015 8:01 pm

8305 wrote:I think O'Brien was asked to play a style of basketball he didn't have the personnel to play. He had some guys who could hit the 3 but overall the team was slow and not particularly athletic. This team is clearly more athletic and has several alpha dog type players that team lacked. I'm not put off by the lack of success of O'Brien's teams had and any parallels that otherwise might be drawn between the era's of Pacer basketball.


Obie brought in and implemented the high tempo fire up the 3 offense as it was his own personal offense no matter where he coached.
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Re: Flat Circle? 

Post#15 » by 8305 » Tue Jul 28, 2015 8:39 pm

Scoot McGroot wrote:
8305 wrote:I think O'Brien was asked to play a style of basketball he didn't have the personnel to play. He had some guys who could hit the 3 but overall the team was slow and not particularly athletic. This team is clearly more athletic and has several alpha dog type players that team lacked. I'm not put off by the lack of success of O'Brien's teams had and any parallels that otherwise might be drawn between the era's of Pacer basketball.


Obie brought in and implemented the high tempo fire up the 3 offense as it was his own personal offense no matter where he coached.


That may be but I don't think he would have been hired if Larry didn't want a three point shooting up-tempo offense. During O'Brien's tenure, the team was waiting out the contracts of Dunleavy, Murphy, Tinsley and O'Neal. Fortunately this time there was some flexibility with the roster and existing personnel that seems to fit a faster paced system. At the very least it will be interesting to watch how it all unfolds.
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Re: Flat Circle? 

Post#16 » by Scoot McGroot » Tue Jul 28, 2015 10:08 pm

8305 wrote:
Scoot McGroot wrote:
8305 wrote:I think O'Brien was asked to play a style of basketball he didn't have the personnel to play. He had some guys who could hit the 3 but overall the team was slow and not particularly athletic. This team is clearly more athletic and has several alpha dog type players that team lacked. I'm not put off by the lack of success of O'Brien's teams had and any parallels that otherwise might be drawn between the era's of Pacer basketball.


Obie brought in and implemented the high tempo fire up the 3 offense as it was his own personal offense no matter where he coached.


That may be but I don't think he would have been hired if Larry didn't want a three point shooting up-tempo offense. During O'Brien's tenure, the team was waiting out the contracts of Dunleavy, Murphy, Tinsley and O'Neal. Fortunately this time there was some flexibility with the roster and existing personnel that seems to fit a faster paced system. At the very least it will be interesting to watch how it all unfolds.


Maybe, but that was Obie's system. He may have been hired to run that, but he wasn't "asked" to run it by anyway. He was just hired because that was the only system he'd run, and that was what Walsh/Bird were likely looking for at the time.
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Re: Flat Circle? 

Post#17 » by 8305 » Wed Jul 29, 2015 2:53 am

Scoot McGroot wrote:
8305 wrote:
Scoot McGroot wrote:
Obie brought in and implemented the high tempo fire up the 3 offense as it was his own personal offense no matter where he coached.


That may be but I don't think he would have been hired if Larry didn't want a three point shooting up-tempo offense. During O'Brien's tenure, the team was waiting out the contracts of Dunleavy, Murphy, Tinsley and O'Neal. Fortunately this time there was some flexibility with the roster and existing personnel that seems to fit a faster paced system. At the very least it will be interesting to watch how it all unfolds.


Maybe, but that was Obie's system. He may have been hired to run that, but he wasn't "asked" to run it by anyway. He was just hired because that was the only system he'd run, and that was what Walsh/Bird were likely looking for at the time.


Ok, I'll say it another way. Walsh and Bird hired a guy to run his system. A system that never had the benefit of the right players for it to succeed.
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Re: Flat Circle? 

Post#18 » by Scoot McGroot » Wed Jul 29, 2015 12:57 pm

8305 wrote:
Scoot McGroot wrote:
8305 wrote:
That may be but I don't think he would have been hired if Larry didn't want a three point shooting up-tempo offense. During O'Brien's tenure, the team was waiting out the contracts of Dunleavy, Murphy, Tinsley and O'Neal. Fortunately this time there was some flexibility with the roster and existing personnel that seems to fit a faster paced system. At the very least it will be interesting to watch how it all unfolds.


Maybe, but that was Obie's system. He may have been hired to run that, but he wasn't "asked" to run it by anyway. He was just hired because that was the only system he'd run, and that was what Walsh/Bird were likely looking for at the time.


Ok, I'll say it another way. Walsh and Bird hired a guy to run his system. A system that never had the benefit of the right players for it to succeed.


Maybe. But I think that Obie's student has been proven to not be successful no matter who's in it. You know who it was designed for? Antoine Walker and Troy Murphy. Those were dream fits for what Obie wanted to do.
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Re: Flat Circle? 

Post#19 » by 8305 » Wed Jul 29, 2015 3:45 pm

Can't imagine Troy Murphy or Antoine Walker were anyone's dream player. His teams in Boston and Indiana were both pretty flawed. Did he try to take advantage of guys who played the 4 and could shoot a little? Sure. And, he was stubborn with James Posey in his last year here. Did he ever coach a team possessing anything close to traditional NBA talent at all five positions?
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Re: Flat Circle? 

Post#20 » by Scoot McGroot » Wed Jul 29, 2015 4:39 pm

8305 wrote:Can't imagine Troy Murphy or Antoine Walker were anyone's dream player. His teams in Boston and Indiana were both pretty flawed. Did he try to take advantage of guys who played the 4 and could shoot a little? Sure. And, he was stubborn with James Posey in his last year here. Did he ever coach a team possessing anything close to traditional NBA talent at all five positions?


Yeah. He rolled with Kenny Anderson, Paul Pierce, Antoine Walker, and then the Vitaly Potapenko/Tony Battie combo when they were good. He swapped in Mark Blount at center, too. In Philly, he had the guard heavy lineup of Iverson, Iggy, and Korver, and then big men like Webber, Kenny Thomas, Corliss Williamson, Sammy Dalembert, and Marc Jackson.

Remember, when he started here, he had Foster, JO, and David Harrison. He pushed for Antoine Walker to take over 20 shots a game. He replicated that by playing Danny quite a bit at the 4 to shoot. In fact, Granger played essentially the most amount of 4 in his career under O'Brien.

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