Political Roundtable - Part VII

[dobrojim]

Slavery may be almost entirely a thing of the past in this country, but white privilege
is still alive and doing quite well.

[nate33]

Slavery may be almost entirely a thing of the past in this country, but white privilege
is still alive and doing quite well.

Okay.

So would you suggest reparations for white privilege? If so, how do you define white privilege? How do you quantify it? Certainly, some individuals are better skilled and qualified to accomplish some things than other individuals. If the more skilled person happens to be a white person, how do we know if his accomplishments are based on merit or privilege?

Blacks are overrepresented in professional football and basketball. Is that black privilege?

[TGW]

I don't disagree with the first paragraph of your response Nate—the recipients of reparations would be difficult to figure out in the modern-day age. But let's not act like the American government wasn't responsible for slavery. Also, let's not act like we can't trace back lineage of modern day Americans to slave owners. It's not that hard.

As for that graphic you just posted—complete and utter hogwash. I've been to many of those countries in red, including some of the deeper red countries like Haiti and India. There's no slavery there—no one is being forced to work for anyone under punishment of death or a whipping by the master if they try to escape. In India there's a caste system, which is unfair, but NOT slavery. In Haiti, there is a "termless" form of indentured servitude, but the servants aren't forced to stay and most of them are paid...again, it's NOT slavery. Hell, if the government were able to enforce regulation in the way of a minimum wage system or unions, Haiti would just be fine with it.

That graphic just serves to make white people living in this country feel better about what happened in America's history. Don't try and equate modern-day "slavery" to what slaves endured here in the US, because it's not the same whatsoever. And if America wants to be the moral judge on modern say slavery, we need t stop being hypocrites about the subject and start boycotting those American industries that fund global slavery. Companies like Nike, Dell, Apple, Tommy Hilfiger, Levis, and a plethora of other companies that are paying people 4-5 cents on the dollar to manufacture their goods. Those are the REAL modern day slaveowners.

[Zonkerbl]

Well, to be precise, those countries are where human trafficking takes place.

It's slavery, but not the kind of legal, institutionalized slavery we're talking about. Apples and oranges.

[nate33]

As for that graphic you just posted—complete and utter hogwash. I've been to many of those countries in red, including some of the deeper red countries like Haiti and India. There's no slavery there—no one is being forced to work for anyone under punishment of death or a whipping by the master if they try to escape. In India there's a caste system, which is unfair, but NOT slavery. In Haiti, there is a "termless" form of indentured servitude, but the servants aren't forced to stay and most of them are paid...again, it's NOT slavery. Hell, if the government were able to enforce regulation in the way of a minimum wage system or unions, Haiti would just be fine with it.

I think you have a valid point that slavery today isn't the same as slavery 150 years ago. But that's because the morals of today are way different than the moral of 150 years ago. If we judged everyone in history based on today's mores, very few societies or individuals would hold up to scrutiny.

The bottom line is that the history of slavery in the United States was comparatively benign to the conditions in other countries and the United States addressed the issue as the morals of Western society changed. It's a bit ridiculous to single out the United States as having some sort of original sin when nearly every society made the same moral transgressions at the time and many still do today.

[dckingsfan]

I would be interested to understand how we would do reparations. Would it be like the Indians where we give them a combination of cash payments and land?

[TGW]

Well, to be precise, those countries are where human trafficking takes place.

It's slavery, but not the kind of legal, institutionalized slavery we're talking about. Apples and oranges.

Well, not really. Most human trafficking occurs in Eastern Europe, with the United States being one of the largest benefactors. It's not as prevalent in non-European countries:

[nate33]

Well, to be precise, those countries are where human trafficking takes place.

It's slavery, but not the kind of legal, institutionalized slavery we're talking about. Apples and oranges.

Well, not really. Most human trafficking occurs in Eastern Europe, with the United States being one of the largest benefactors. It's not as prevalent in non-European countries:

Point of clarification.

That graphic makes it appear that the U.S. illegally trafficking a lot of Russians (presumably for the sex industry), that's not the case. Human trafficking in the U.S. is mostly a subset of illegal immigration. Coyotes exploit the poor Mexican and Central American peasants who are trying to enter the country illegally.

[Induveca]

TGW as to the Haitian comment you are very wrong. As a Dominican, who lived there the majority of my childhood, I can speak from experience there are thousands of Haitian and Dominican sugarcane workers locked into shacks in the evenings and guarded by armed guards. Their pay is next to nothing, and they have nowhere to spend it. But they DO pay guys who round up the homeless Haitian refugees by the head and take them to somewhere where they can "make money".

Feel bad for guys like this, they die and get buried in those fields.

[TGW]

Induveca, as a Haitian-American, who lived in Haiti, I'm sure no one is shackled anywhere in Haiti. Complete bull...maybe the Haitians that are slaves in the DR are being shackled, but it's not happening in Haiti. Spread your misinformation somewhere else.

[TGW]

Well, to be precise, those countries are where human trafficking takes place.

It's slavery, but not the kind of legal, institutionalized slavery we're talking about. Apples and oranges.

Well, not really. Most human trafficking occurs in Eastern Europe, with the United States being one of the largest benefactors. It's not as prevalent in non-European countries:

Point of clarification.

That graphic makes it appear that the U.S. illegally trafficking a lot of Russians (presumably for the sex industry), that's not the case. Human trafficking in the U.S. is mostly a subset of illegal immigration. Coyotes exploit the poor Mexican and Central American peasants who are trying to enter the country illegally.

Ahem...I don't think that's the case at all:

The findings of the U.S. Department of Justice's 2011 report, “Characteristics of Suspected Human Trafficking Incidents, 2008-2010,” include:

1. From 2008 to 2010, Federal anti-trafficking task forces opened 2,515 suspected cases of human trafficking.
2. 82% of suspected incidents were classified as sex trafficking and nearly half of these involved victims under the age of 18.
3. Approximately 10% of the incidents were classified as labor trafficking.
4. 83% of victims in confirmed sex-trafficking incidents were identified as U.S. citizens, while most confirmed labor-trafficking victims were identified as undocumented immigrants (67%) or legal immigrants (28%).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_trafficking_in_the_United_States

So it's not illegal immigrants, but rather U.S. citizens who are the victims. Illegal aliens are the targets of labor-trafficking.

[nate33]

Ahem...I don't think that's the case at all:

The findings of the U.S. Department of Justice's 2011 report, “Characteristics of Suspected Human Trafficking Incidents, 2008-2010,” include:

1. From 2008 to 2010, Federal anti-trafficking task forces opened 2,515 suspected cases of human trafficking.
2. 82% of suspected incidents were classified as sex trafficking and nearly half of these involved victims under the age of 18.
3. Approximately 10% of the incidents were classified as labor trafficking.
4. 83% of victims in confirmed sex-trafficking incidents were identified as U.S. citizens, while most confirmed labor-trafficking victims were identified as undocumented immigrants (67%) or legal immigrants (28%).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_trafficking_in_the_United_States

So it's not illegal immigrants, but rather U.S. citizens who are the victims. Illegal aliens are the targets of labor-trafficking.

From that same Wikipedia article:

From January 2007 through September 2008, there were 1,229 alleged cases of human trafficking nationally; 1,018 of them, nearly 83 percent, were sex trafficking cases. Sex trafficking has a close relationship with migrant smuggling operations headed by Mexican, Eastern European, and Asian crime organizations.[13] Domestic servitude claims 27% of people in slavery in the U.S., agriculture 10%, and other occupations 17%

So we're talking numbers in the neighborhood of 900, and most of them headed by foreign crime organizations.

There there's this:

Brothels catering exclusively to Latino males, referred to as "Latino Residential Brothels", are a major vehicle for sex trafficking, with the victims being almost exclusively women and children from Latin America.[15][16][17][18] Trafficking of U.S. citizens within the U.S. occurs as well. It is estimated that between 240,000 and 325,000 children are at risk for sexual exploitation each year.

So now we're talking numbers in excess of 100,000 "almost exclusively women and children from Latin America". Though I'm not sure what "at risk for sexual exploitation" means. Theoretically, everyone is at risk for sexual exploitation.

Then there's this, which casts doubt on most of the numbers in the other studies:

According to a 2007 Washington Post expose entitled "Human Trafficking Evokes Outrage, Little Evidence", human trafficking into the United States is essentially nonexistent.[32]

However, there are more victims than those who have applied for and been granted certification. First, certification requires that the victim be willing to cooperate with a police investigation. Following a police raid, some victims just want to go home, some victims don’t want to cooperate with police and are deported, and some victims are afraid to testify against vicious traffickers. The application for certification requires support from law enforcement. If the victim is not seen as useful for a case, or if the police don't want to pursue a case, they have no support to stay in the U.S. and will not be counted as victims of trafficking.

Nevertheless, the number of identified victims (or convicted traffickers) is far less than the official claim (by the U.S. State Department) that as many 14,500-17,500 individuals are trafficked into the United States every year. A recent analysis by the Justice Department's Bureau of Justice Statistics showed a gap between the claimed number of victims and the number of confirmed cases of victimization

I'm not sure what we can glean from that Wikipedia article. It seems like a hodgepodge of random studies with poor context.

[nate33]

Here's something from the ACLU:

In the United States, victims of trafficking are almost exclusively immigrants, and mostly immigrant women. The average age of trafficking victims in the U.S. is 20. In the U.S., immigrant women and children are particularly vulnerable to the deceptive and coercive tactics of traffickers because of their lower levels of education, inability to speak English, immigration status, and lack of familiarity with U.S. employment protections. Further, they are vulnerable because they often work in jobs that are hidden from the public view and unregulated by the government.

[Zonkerbl]

On a somewhat unrelated note, this is a good reason for us to rethink our immigration policy, which is essentially responsible for creating an environment that makes women vulnerable. Assuming we can't stop people from wanting to come here, how do we manage that without throwing women to the wolves?

[nate33]

On a somewhat unrelated note, this is a good reason for us to rethink our immigration policy, which is essentially responsible for creating an environment that makes women vulnerable. Assuming we can't stop people from wanting to come here, how do we manage that without throwing women to the wolves?

One thing that could help would be to end the "anchor baby" policy.

Many illegal immigrants, particularly women, know that if they come to America and have a child, they can ultimately be permitted to stay. Removing the anchor baby policy would take away the incentive to come to America in the first place because they could be deported at any time.

[DCZards]

Slavery has been around since the dawn of history and has been practices by most societies. It has been the norm for all time except the past 200 years. The irony is that it was White European ethics that inspired the repudiation of slavery in the modern era. If not for that mindset, there would still still be slaves in America today. Indeed, there is slavery today everywhere except in those nations that are culturally European (plus the Japanese and Koreans).

As the great great grandson of slaves—my great great grandmother Lucy Ann Jackson and my great great grandfather Squire Jackson were slaves on the Rhodes Plantation in Nelson Co., Va.—I find disgusting your attempt to somehow dismiss or justify American slavery (and the denigration of my ancestors humanity) because it was the "norm.”

[Induveca]

Induveca, as a Haitian-American, who lived in Haiti, I'm sure no one is shackled anywhere in Haiti. Complete bull...maybe the Haitians that are slaves in the DR are being shackled, but it's not happening in Haiti. Spread your misinformation somewhere else.

Give me a break you know exactly what is happening in DR in many of the sugar cane fields. Ever driven from Port Au Prince to Santo Domingo?

I did in the 80s during baby doc's reign. You don't consider the illegal Haitians enslaved? No papers, can't speak the language, considered second class citizens and forced into communal housing for 20 dollars a month (with money deducted for food and water) with nowhere to spend it?

I lived in DR for a year or so recently, and the drive from Santo Domingo to the east coast may be a bit nicer (with highways), but look off the roads in the cane fields. It's still happening.

Great resource from Duke complete with 3 documentaries. Haitian braceros have been enslaved in the DR for many decades.

http://sites.duke.edu/sugardocumentaries/

[nate33]

Slavery has been around since the dawn of history and has been practices by most societies. It has been the norm for all time except the past 200 years. The irony is that it was White European ethics that inspired the repudiation of slavery in the modern era. If not for that mindset, there would still still be slaves in America today. Indeed, there is slavery today everywhere except in those nations that are culturally European (plus the Japanese and Koreans).

As the great great grandson of slaves—my great great grandmother Lucy Ann Jackson and my great great grandfather Squire Jackson were slaves on the Rhodes Plantation in Nelson Co., Va.—I find disgusting your attempt to somehow justify American slavery (and the denigration of my ancestors humanity) because it was the "norm.”

Whatever. Every society has endured slavery at some point in time. I have Scottish ancestry and they were enslaved and exploited by the British as late as the 1600's, and by the Roman Empire before them. My Finnish ancestors were enslaved throughout the Middle Ages by the Crimean Muslims up to the late 16th century. Why is it that of all the slavery that has existed throughout history, between so many cultures, it is only African Americans who get reparations? What makes them so special?

[fishercob]

Why? It's not like the U.S. never doled out reparations before. Reagan gave $1.8 billion dollars to Japanese internment camp survivors. I would venture to say the African American experience has been MUCH worse than whatever Japanese people went through in this country.

EDIT: Pine beat me to it.

Most of those people actually experienced the internment though? I'm not collecting money for a horrible wrong which originally befell my family in the 1800s.

You are, or course, correct in your assessment that reparations is completely unworkable, but that's not going to change anyone's minds. There are no former slaveholders currently alive, and there are no American slaves currently alive. There aren't even any children of slaveholders or slaves currently alive. There is no way to define who is responsible to pay for reparations because most America were never slaveholders. There were also African American slaveholders. How does that work into the equation?

Maybe it's workable, maybe it isn't. People do this sort of work. Ken Feinberg, who was the "czar" of the Katrina and 9/11 funds comes to mind. Just because slaveholders and slaves are all dead, doesn't mean their descendants aren't still bearing the cost/benefit of those roles. Quite the opposite. There are lots of wealthy people in this country who were born wealthy because of what their ancestors did. Descendants of slaves are still at the bottom of the socio-economic ladder. This isn't a coincidence or an accident.

Slavery has been around since the dawn of history and has been practices by most societies. It has been the norm for all time except the past 200 years. The irony is that it was White European ethics that inspired the repudiation of slavery in the modern era. If not for that mindset, there would still still be slaves in America today. Indeed, there is slavery today everywhere except in those nations that are culturally European (plus the Japanese and Koreans).

Are slaves or their descendants supposed to be comforted by the fact that slavery was or is pervasive? Rape has been around forever too. If your daughter was raped, would you feel any better were you find out that it was pretty common? Hey, happens to the best of us. What can you do?

Those same "White European ethics" slaughtered the native Americans and have left their society in ruins to this day (my wife worked with the board of Indian Education -- what a complete sh*t show). I don't buy White ethics inspiring the end of modern slavery. The concept of going from slavery to freedom is in the Old Testament.

]

[Induveca]

Slavery has been around since the dawn of history and has been practices by most societies. It has been the norm for all time except the past 200 years. The irony is that it was White European ethics that inspired the repudiation of slavery in the modern era. If not for that mindset, there would still still be slaves in America today. Indeed, there is slavery today everywhere except in those nations that are culturally European (plus the Japanese and Koreans).

As the great great grandson of slaves—my great great grandmother Lucy Ann Jackson and my great great grandfather Squire Jackson were slaves on the Rhodes Plantation in Nelson Co., Va.—I find disgusting your attempt to somehow justify American slavery (and the denigration of my ancestors humanity) because it was the "norm.”

Whatever. Every society has endured slavery at some point in time. I have Scottish ancestry and they were enslaved and exploited by the British as late as the 1600's, and by the Roman Empire before them. My Finnish ancestors were enslaved throughout the Middle Ages by the Crimean Muslims up to the late 16th century. Why is it that all of all the slavery that has existed throughout history, between so many cultures, it is only African Americans who get reparations? What makes them so special?

It will never happen in the DR, both DR and Spain are broke.

The demographics of the U.S. are vastly different than in the 1800s. Carribbeans, South Americas, SE Asians, Eastern Europeans simply weren't here when this occurred. This isn't South Africa 1990 vs 2010.

Making descendants of hard working immigrant families of the past 100 years pay for "reparations" when they are 3 generations removed is illogical. Do Dominican Americans get paid? We are after all, also descendants of slavery? Haitians? Panamanians etc?

It's a rabbit hole, I'd prefer to work towards my own success. I have every opportunity to do so.