Who starts at the 2 and 3?

[BlzMwt]

Obviously the final roster isn't close to being set yet, with it being the middle of the offseason... but I just read an article on Clipperholics about the idea of stephenson possibly starting. Before reading the article I figured that they would suggest putting him at the 3 but they suggest having JJ come off the bench to stabilize the 2nd unit. Obviously the starting lineup would lose some firepower, but over the last few seasons, whether its been willie green, randy foye (obviously a better shooter than lance) its been seen that the clippers offense will be top 5 in the league. Starting lance at the 2 would give some added defense, rebounding, energy and likely make him very happy.

The article also talks about how having an entirely new bench with smith, rivers and stephenson all being creators and not necessarily high percentage scorers, would create some chaos and possibly having JJ come off the bench would create some cohesion. No reason he couldn't get 25-35 minutes still coming off the bench, finish games. I could even picture him being a 6th man of the year candidate, not that that is important but still.

Also is there any inclination as to who will be starting at the 3? Johnson or Pierce?

BTW the article I reference:

http://clipperholics.com/2015/07/25/lance-stephenson-start-clippers/

[nickhx2]

jj starts for sure.

it's likely pierce starting, but playing 20-ish mins a night.

lance is a ball dominant focal point. so is cp3. and jj redick is cp3's near perfect partner so it doesn't make sense to switch lance/jj. the team will have far more synergy with lance being able to free lance (get it?!) as the lead guard compared to playing off the ball and/or sharing with another lead guard, which is what got him in trouble in charlotte in the first place.

i'd also add that if you had jj off the bench then the bench would fall apart and would never benefit. there would be no legit on-ball creators to help him out. and when cp3 was out, jj's production suffered substantially without the best 1 in the league getting him the ball. it felt like everyone was afraid they'd catch a fatal illness if they passed to jj. separating the two would be very bad.

[Ranma]

This has the makings of a good discussion. While I've previously referred to Paul Pierce as part of the "first unit", I actually think it would be better for him to start games off the bench. That may sound contradictory, but the way I see it, Pierce would be a bigger factor to play the more important minutes during key stretches and part of the primary unit to close the game in non-garbage time situations. Plus, rationing his minutes would lower the risk of injury, thus preserving him for our postseason run.

With regards to Redick, unless we package Stephenson and Crawford in a trade for Eric Gordon--which is a highly unlikely personal dream scenario--the team would be better off for J.J. to start games. Coincidentally, I was contemplating this very quandary last night as I was viewing the video mkwest posted in the Multimedia thread.

Redick is a dangerous weapon given the popular term ascribed to him: "gravity". He draws so much attention given his constant and wily movement along with his precision shot. On top of that, he's an excellent pocket-passer who can set up easy dunks for both Griffin and DJ off the pick-and-roll. He's also an underrated ball-handler and solid defender albeit not of the lockdown variety. However, he has a tendency to start off hot and end games with diminishing returns, which is likely a stamina issue due to the insustainability of the energy required for his perpetual-motion style of play.

Plus, our starting lineup was the reason why our offense ranked #1 in the entire league, so why mess with a good thing? With that in mind, I think Wesley Johnson will provide a reasonable facsimile of what Matt Barnes provided for us. His length and athleticism should actually improve our defense even if consistency has been a problem for Wes. Although he doesn't cut to the basket as well as Barnes does--which was an under-appreciated aspect of Matt's game--Johnson should at the very least reasonably duplicate the same numbers Matt gave us. I'm hopeful that Johnson can finally find some consistency to start elevating his game a bit, so being around Blake Griffin for workouts and being inserted into our starting lineup would be a golden opportunity for him if he fully takes advantage of it.

Starting Lineup
PF - Blake Griffin
SF - Wesley Johnson
C - DeAndre Jordan
SG - J.J. Redick
PG - Chris Paul

Bench Unit
PF - Josh Smith
SF - Paul Pierce
C - Cole Aldrich
SG - Lance Stephenson
PG - Austin Rivers

Whether Doc primarily substitutes with an entire bench unit or staggers the substitutions, our depth allows for a multitude of possibilities, but for the sake of simplicity, let's assume Doc goes with his preferred method of subbing with an entire bench unit. A lineup featuring Smith, Pierce, Aldrich, Stephenson, and Rivers provides a decent amount of balance if everyone plays their roles properly. That means Josh Smith not chucking 3-pointers willy-nilly. Or Stephenson and Rivers fighting for ball-handling duties. Or Jamal Crawford even being involved.

Smith and Aldrich should provide intimidating rim protection on defense. Pierce could be a calming influence for a squad composed of newcomers along with his 3-point shot. Stephenson and Rivers will hopefully fulfill Doc's vision of a backcourt that shares playmaking duties. While Stephenson and Rivers are both adept at driving to the hoop, both should also be working on their perimeter shots. Smith is also an adept ball-handler as well as a topnotch finisher. With the exception of Austin Rivers and maybe Cole Aldrich, most everyone on this unit should be able to reasonably fill in for any of the starters for stretches during the game and we still have C.J. Wilcox and Pablo Prigioni, not to mention the possibility of Jamal Crawford even as I argue otherwise.

Again, while I'd propose a starting lineup with Wesley Johnson in it and Paul Pierce off the bench, I anticipate a lineup to close the game to be different whether it is just Pierce in place of Johnson or even the inclusion of Smith and/or Stephenson depending on the game situation.

[nickhx2]

pp is gonna get the respect start. i'm ok with that since he's playing limited minutes anyway. but if wes johnson channels his inner draymond green superstar i'm sure pp will have zero problems coming off the bench the whole season.

[BlzMwt]

I just see the bench unit of rivers, stephenson, johnson (if pierce were to start), smith and aldrich to definitely be better than what we have had in the past but still limited in what they can do. I believe none of them have played together before, it will take time to adjust to eachother and I don't know if the fit is perfect. Rivers, Stephenson and Smith are all definitely playmakers at their positions but there lacks a "finisher". I foresee a lot of plays with either too many passes, a turnover or a long 3 from any of the 1-4, most likely smith though lol.

Obviously all of these problems could be mitigated if Doc used substitutions that were better staggered... keeping some starters with some of the bench players (a lineup of paul, redick, stephenson, smith and DJ or a lineup of rivers, redick, johnson, blake and DJ or smith offers so much flexibility) but doc has shown a propensity to do mass substitutions. I think towards the end of the season and the playoffs, this was exemplified. Obviously the weak bench didn't help but did we really need to see leads vanish because a lineup of hudson, rivers, crawford, davis and hawes were on the court?

I agree with Ranma now with an explanation of redick and paul working together, I just thought redick or pierce to the bench would give some leadership, consistency and shooting to a bench that might not be that cohesive.

[Ranma]

I'm definitely okay with Pierce in the starting lineup in the first Clippers' home game for the respect factor, but it just seems to make more sense to have the Truth a part of the bench unit--assuming Doc continues with his modus operandi--precisely because of the leadership factor, fit, and intention of keeping him fresh.

Given how well the Clippers' starting unit has been, I'm content with continuing with the status quo with Johnson replacing Barnes. Of course, it could be argued that Pierce would upgrade the small forward position to make a great unit even better, but my primary concern is the bench. Luckily for the newcomers, the bar was set low by their predecessors so they don't have to do much to improve. Plus, whether Redick is part of the bench unit or not, it will be composed of mostly new faces working together, regardless. I don't think Redick and Rivers played that much together this past season.

Having a highly respected vet like Pierce directing a squad of "misfits" who are unaccustomed to playing with one another would go a long way towards smoothing out such a transition. Yeah, PP could help quell any oncourt tensions between DJ and CP3 as part of the starting 5, but that particular issue is overstated and his importance to the bench unit is more pronounced. Plus, he most assuredly will be in the lineup to end games, anyway. Long story short: the starting lineup is fine as is, the bench is of bigger concern so mixing the Truth into it would be of significant difference. I mean look at that lineup again:

PF: Josh Smith
SF: Paul Pierce
C: Cole Aldrich
SG: Lance Stephenson
PG: Austin Rivers

Pierce's inclusion in that unit makes it look like a legitimate starting lineup. With the presence of Aldrich and Rivers, replacing Pierce with Johnson makes it look more like a traditional bench unit, whereas Johnson's presence in the actual Clippers starting lineup still makes it likely to be the top-rated offense in the league.

I just noticed this, but apparently Wes was part of the workout group that trained with Blake, DeAndre, and Sasha Vujacic last summer. While I don't see actual footage of them working out together, maybe they spent time being familiar with each other's capabilities, which could further or otherwise jumpstart the oncourt fit should Wes, Blake, and DJ play together a lot.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ClFtowIDenE[/youtube]


Plus, I'm salivating at the thought of having Johnson fill the lane with Chris Paul, Blake Griffin, or even J.J. Redick finding him on the move. While it's obviously not an omen or indication of any kind, I find it ironic in this instance only that #6 on the highlight reel below was Wes handily beating Paul Pierce. Again, no big deal...just a funny bit of coincidence. However, an argument could possibly be made that with CP3's more deliberate approach to bringing the ball upcourt would limit his transition opportunities while a unit with Stephenson on it would be more inclined to push the pace.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEoz_3r64Q8[/youtube]

[BlzMwt]

Also in that video, #3 has johnson dunking on smith lol

Definitely having pierce with that bench unit looks good. But I don't like the idea of having that entire bench unit out there at the same time. Just seems unnecessary. Letting Griffin or Paul get more touches because the other is sitting would be more beneficial would it not?

Taking your lineup and subbing Paul or Griffin in:

PF: Josh Smith
SF: Paul Pierce
C: Cole Aldrich
SG: Lance Stephenson
PG: Chris Paul

OR

PF: Josh Smith
SF: Paul Pierce
C: Blake Griffin
SG: Lance Stephenson
PG: Austin Rivers

Now that looks like a lineup that would be competing for a playoff spot in the East IMO. Will we see Doc stagger the minutes more to allow this? Or stagger the minutes so DJ can get the touches he wants when Paul and Griffin sits (i'm not advocating for that to happen, I'm just thinking that was some of the promises made to him at the houston meeting).

BTW, Can smith play center? Obviously his minutes have traditionally been at SF, PF. But a small ball line up with Blake and Smith would be effective? More effective than a Glen Davis and Blake lineup was in years prior?

[Ranma]

Also in that video, #3 has johnson dunking on smith lol

I missed that...ha, ha. Nice catch.

With regards to staggering a lineup versus subbing out an entire unit, I'm probably more inclined towards staggering in the playoffs and subbing the entire unit for the regular season. With the need to rest our starters and work new faces into the ballclub, I think it makes sense this season to actually go with Doc's preferred method of an entire bench unit, but again, only for the regular season. This doesn't necessarily preclude mix-and-matching players in lineup variations, but I'd like to start out primarily going with this approach.

Maintaining the level of excellence with either Paul or Griffin always out on the floor obviously makes sense, especially since it frees up the other to handle the ball more, but I want them both to rest whenever possible during the grueling schedule of the regular season.

With regards to Josh Smith, I'm fairly certain that he prefers to play the 4 and 5 rather than 3 spot. His problems in Detroit arose primarily because of his reluctance to play small forward, which I don't understand personally. I can definitely see a small lineup with Griffin and Smith being effective depending on the matchups. I'm actually looking forward to seeing that too. I'm curious who between the two would play center mostly. Personally, I like Smith at the C spot, but again, it may be dictated by the opposing team's lineup out on the floor.

[mkwest]

Rowan Kavner and Isaac Lowenkron touch on this subject on the latest edition of LobCast. Kavner echoes the sentiments of Ranma in Johnson starting and Pierce finishing. They touch on it at the 34:00 mark.

I wouldn't be opposed to Johnson starting, but I expect Pierce to start just out of respect in his first season here. Pierce knows that it's mainly about the postseason for him. He'll likely get reduced minutes during the regular season and maybe he sits out certain games based on the schedule.

[Quake Griffin]

gotta love how our wings stack up with the rest of the Western Conference wings………again.

best wing defender is still 6'0"

[QRich3]

Yeah I'm pretty sure Pierce is gonna get the respect starter position, and I think it's the best idea too. Wes fits equally with the 1st and 2nd unit, since both are full of ball handlers, while Pierce will be more willing to play at a low usage with the starters than he would with the reserves. Plus, Paul/Redick/Pierce/Griffin/Jordan is gonna be the main unit and the guys who finish close games, it makes sense they get the most minutes together so the have gelled as much as possible by the post-season.

[Quake Griffin]

Yeah I'm pretty sure Pierce is gonna get the respect starter position, and I think it's the best idea too. Wes fits equally with the 1st and 2nd unit, since both are full of ball handlers, while Pierce will be more willing to play at a low usage with the starters than he would with the reserves. Plus, Paul/Jamal/Pierce/Griffin/Jordan is gonna be the main unit and the guys who finish close games, it makes sense they get the most minutes together so the have gelled as much as possible by the post-season.

FTFY.
he's not traded yet.

[QRich3]

Nah at the very least they built the team for him to be unnecessary, even if he's on the roster I wanna think he's never finishing a game unless it's a blowout. I wouldn't know what to make of it of he still finished games with Redick perfectly healthy on the bench. Other than being really pissed.

[Don Tommy]

Also in that video, #3 has johnson dunking on smith lol

9 of those dunks were with the Lakers. 8 of them had scores on the screen and they only had a lead in 2 of those games. I know it has nothing to do with the topic but I love pointing things like that out to Laker fans

[Roscoe Sheed]

gotta love how our wings stack up with the rest of the Western Conference wings………again.

best wing defender is still 6'0"

If Stephenson plays up to his full potential he would be the Clippers best wing defender. Johnson has the length to be a solid defender and Pierce is a smart defender even though he is slow now

[madmaxmedia]

I don't have much expectations or hope regarding Wesley Johnson. Pierce and Stephenson are the 2 additions that will play ahead of him, to me Johnson is bench filler type. If he ends up being more significant, then I will just take it as a pleasant surprise.

[McAdoo]

Wesley is still a major upgrade over our backup 3 from last season, which was essentially no one.

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[BlzMwt]

I don't have much expectations or hope regarding Wesley Johnson. Pierce and Stephenson are the 2 additions that will play ahead of him, to me Johnson is bench filler type. If he ends up being more significant, then I will just take it as a pleasant surprise.

has johnson ever played with the kind of coaching and veteran presence that this team has? Or a winning environment?

his best form of leadership likely came from an injured kobe who wasnt interested in the team, a pau gasol who wanted out, and kevin love who wanted out?

im not saying he will make a complete turnaround but the different circumstances and context could definitely be a boost for him

[og15]

Redick will start at the 2.

I think right now Doc has Johnson penciled in to start at the 3, but training camp performance can affect who actually does start

gotta love how our wings stack up with the rest of the Western Conference wings………again.

best wing defender is still 6'0"

If Stephenson plays up to his full potential he would be the Clippers best wing defender. Johnson has the length to be a solid defender and Pierce is a smart defender even though he is slow now

I think if Johnson technically played to his full potential he would be the Clippers best wing defender, but I don't think it is a reality that he does that on any consistent basis.

Wesley is still a major upgrade over our backup 3 from last season, which was essentially no one.

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Don't talk about the man, the legend, Hedo Turkoglu like that

[TucsonClip]

I think Pierce gets the Caron Butler/Jared Dudley rotation. He starts the game and is the first player subbed out after the first 5-6 minutes. He then can come back for a short stint as a stretch 4 in the small ball lineups with Blake/DJ at C.

You want Pierce playing as many minutes with CP3, Blake and Redick as possible.

I think Johnson spot starts as does Lance. Lance likely receives the 6th man minutes and first sub off the bench.