Attachment to prospects

[Sifu]

We're in a wildcard spot now, and at the deadline they were 2 games out with 2 teams in between them. Those teams (Twins and Orioles) arguably had weaker rosters than the jays even before the price trade.

Going all in to win a WC spot isn't a sound decision.

[Kevin Willis]

We're in a wildcard spot now, and at the deadline they were 2 games out with 2 teams in between them. Those teams (Twins and Orioles) arguably had weaker rosters than the jays even before the price trade.

Going all in to win a WC spot isn't a sound decision.

Everyone has their own opinion and sometimes no-one is happy with whatever you do. We criticize a franchise for not making the necessary changes to put us over the hump to being a playoff team with a chance (ie. Raptors) without fully realizing what needs to be given up to get that chance. With your thinking we wouldn't of won the two world series we did win.

Then when we do take that risk then the price is too high. We actually have to give up something to get a David Price?? And it's not like our cupboard is completely bare. And it's not like our prospects were without uncertainty - hence prospects. Norris having a down year. Hoffman coming off surgery. etc.

Our starters are mature but the ones under them are young. How much can they learn by having a Dickey, Buerhle, Price in the dugout? We can replenish our farm system.

[joseph227]

We're in a wildcard spot now, and at the deadline they were 2 games out with 2 teams in between them. Those teams (Twins and Orioles) arguably had weaker rosters than the jays even before the price trade.

Going all in to win a WC spot isn't a sound decision.

How was that going all-in? Yes they gave up Norris + 2 other lower tier prospects, but they still have a good farm and they didn't sell Storman/Osuna/Sanchez. The only other short term move was Mark Lowe and they didn't give up significant prospects for him. The Tulo trade was for the short term and the long term and so was revere.

[Santoki]

We're in a wildcard spot now, and at the deadline they were 2 games out with 2 teams in between them. Those teams (Twins and Orioles) arguably had weaker rosters than the jays even before the price trade.

Going all in to win a WC spot isn't a sound decision.

Everyone has their own opinion and sometimes no-one is happy with whatever you do. We criticize a franchise for not making the necessary changes to put us over the hump to being a playoff team with a chance (ie. Raptors) without fully realizing what needs to be given up to get that chance. With your thinking we wouldn't of won the two world series we did win.

Sorry but that's not true at all. The 92/93 teams were the last versions of ones that had been in the playoffs multiple times and couldn't get over the hump. When they made the trade for Cone it was late August and the team was already 2 games up in the division.

That's the difference in the trades. The Jays did it to help cement a rotation while leading the division. Not while they were 7 back of it. People really need to stop comparing this team to 92/93 because they're completely different.

[Kevin Willis]

Going all in to win a WC spot isn't a sound decision.

Everyone has their own opinion and sometimes no-one is happy with whatever you do. We criticize a franchise for not making the necessary changes to put us over the hump to being a playoff team with a chance (ie. Raptors) without fully realizing what needs to be given up to get that chance. With your thinking we wouldn't of won the two world series we did win.

Sorry but that's not true at all. The 92/93 teams were the last versions of ones that had been in the playoffs multiple times and couldn't get over the hump. When they made the trade for Cone it was late August and the team was already 2 games up in the division.

That's the difference in the trades. The Jays did it to help cement a rotation while leading the division. Not while they were 7 back of it. People really need to stop comparing this team to 92/93 because they're completely different.

Not comparing teams but comparing the fact they traded for a rental. The teams were completely different, the 92/93 teams are more like the Cardinals than the current Jays. Internal growth along with strategic signings / trades. This team is more like the Marlins team that won the World Series. However, both teams had a rental of a top 10 pitcher - that's my point.

[Parataxis]

We're in a wildcard spot now, and at the deadline they were 2 games out with 2 teams in between them. Those teams (Twins and Orioles) arguably had weaker rosters than the jays even before the price trade.

Going all in to win a WC spot isn't a sound decision.

Everyone has their own opinion and sometimes no-one is happy with whatever you do. We criticize a franchise for not making the necessary changes to put us over the hump to being a playoff team with a chance (ie. Raptors) without fully realizing what needs to be given up to get that chance. With your thinking we wouldn't of won the two world series we did win.

If you can't see the difference between a team that had been winning pennants for much of the previous decade getting a rental to make the final push to victory, and a team that wasn't even currently in the post-season mix getting a rental to make a push to make it to a one game play in, I think you're misunderstanding something.

[Kevin Willis]

Going all in to win a WC spot isn't a sound decision.

Everyone has their own opinion and sometimes no-one is happy with whatever you do. We criticize a franchise for not making the necessary changes to put us over the hump to being a playoff team with a chance (ie. Raptors) without fully realizing what needs to be given up to get that chance. With your thinking we wouldn't of won the two world series we did win.

If you can't see the difference between a team that had been winning pennants for much of the previous decade getting a rental to make the final push to victory, and a team that wasn't even currently in the post-season mix getting a rental to make a push to make it to a one game play in, I think you're misunderstanding something.

Read what I wrote above your post.

[Sifu]

Going all in to win a WC spot isn't a sound decision.

With your thinking we wouldn't of won the two world series we did win.

Please read carefully what I wrote and how you've somehow twisted that to mean something entirely else and then proceed to argue a position I never stated.

Like others have posted the team in 92 and this current team are in very different positions. One team was leading the division and had a strong track record at winning. The other barely has a winning record and best hope is a WC, which they weren't even in position for at the time.

Try to guess which is which.

If the Jays were leading the division and did all these trades, I would have a different opinion. Context matters.

But thanks for creating a straw man argument in my behalf!

[Sifu]

Not comparing teams but comparing the fact they traded for a rental. The teams were completely different, the 92/93 teams are more like the Cardinals than the current Jays. Internal growth along with strategic signings / trades. This team is more like the Marlins team that won the World Series. However, both teams had a rental of a top 10 pitcher - that's my point.

Why did Billy Beane trade top prospects for rentals last year but not this year?

By your reasoning we should trade for rentals every year. Forget about context. Forget about standings. Let's go for it every year even if we are in last place.

[Kevin Willis]

Not comparing teams but comparing the fact they traded for a rental. The teams were completely different, the 92/93 teams are more like the Cardinals than the current Jays. Internal growth along with strategic signings / trades. This team is more like the Marlins team that won the World Series. However, both teams had a rental of a top 10 pitcher - that's my point.

Why did Billy Beane trade top prospects for rentals last year but not this year?

By your reasoning we should trade for rentals every year. Forget about context. Forget about standings. Let's go for it every year even if we are in last place.

No - that is the opposite to what I'm saying. There is a time and place to go for it - now is a good time. It's been many year since we've done anything similar.

Look - I like prospects too but now is the time to cash in our chips. BTW - Billy Beane has a small market team and has constraints on expenditures. Different situation entirely. At the beginning of the year they knew would not be as good, hence the Donaldson trade. We were the perfect partner to Oakland, they had experienced talent and we had prospects.

[Parataxis]

Everyone has their own opinion and sometimes no-one is happy with whatever you do. We criticize a franchise for not making the necessary changes to put us over the hump to being a playoff team with a chance (ie. Raptors) without fully realizing what needs to be given up to get that chance. With your thinking we wouldn't of won the two world series we did win.

If you can't see the difference between a team that had been winning pennants for much of the previous decade getting a rental to make the final push to victory, and a team that wasn't even currently in the post-season mix getting a rental to make a push to make it to a one game play in, I think you're misunderstanding something.

Read what I wrote above your post.

I did. You're wrong. Context matters.

[Kevin Willis]

If you can't see the difference between a team that had been winning pennants for much of the previous decade getting a rental to make the final push to victory, and a team that wasn't even currently in the post-season mix getting a rental to make a push to make it to a one game play in, I think you're misunderstanding something.

Read what I wrote above your post.

I did. You're wrong. Context matters.

sure

[North_of_Border]

As for the game itself, Daniel Norris, making his Comerica Park debut, didn’t make it out of the fourth inning. He gave up five runs and nine hits.

[cdel00]

Great scouting is so important, our scouting staff will refill the prospect bucket in a draft or 2 they have a good eye for talent, no?

[Schad]

Great scouting is so important, our scouting staff will refill the prospect bucket in a draft or 2 they have a good eye for talent, no?

Refilling the farm system in a draft or two is highly doubtful; a good draft is one that produces a couple of real prospects.

Also, people have to realize that the system that we exploited to renew the farm system so quickly the first time no longer exists. Marisnick, Sanchez, Syndergaard (via Paxton), Wojchiechowski, Nicolino, Musgrove, Smith, Comer, Norris, Smoral and others came from compensatory picks under the old scheme...we regularly had a bucketload of top 100 picks as a result. We no longer have that route, and if we're signing free agent pitching, we may not even have a first rounder.

[dagger]

The question is not whether the Jays can contend with this year's win now moves. It's possible they can, even take the division, even win a World Series. Who knows. The issue is whether this is repeatable, and if the owner's traditional budgeting behaviour is a portend of the future, it is hard to imagine this being repeatable. Some would say go for it, a World Series is worth everything, and that's hard to argue against, unless you go 22 years between playoff appearances because of a refusal to "do things the right way". With the prospect pitcher bulge we had developing, along with some interesting position players in the system, it's possible this team might have built itself into a solid, sustainable contender by 2017 or 2018, where any surplus prospect talent could have been used every couple of years to keep the Jays out in front of the AL East and in real contention, and it would have co-existed within the budget parameters one would expect Rogers to lay down. The Cards have shown what can be done with a sustainable development program that keeps the major league team relevant year after year. That's where the Jays could have ended up, with a bit more patience. Instead, we have to consider the likelihood of signing or replacing three of our five starting pitching next season: Price, Buehrle and Estrada are all free agents, and you have to wonder what Dickey will have at age 41. Don't look to the minors for help, the best young starting pitchers there are at least another year away, i.e. won't arrive until 2017 or 2018. There is nothing worth looking at in terms of starters at AAA or AA right now. At the same time, we face arbitration with Donaldson, and all of our over-30 position players will be a year older. I'm not saying we can't be good, but it will be hard to be as good as the team that AA has sold his soul for right now.

If you look around you, many of the up and coming teams in the majors are teams that built at least partly through the draft: Houston, Washington, New York Mets. As they contend for the first time, they are doing it with a lot of young controllable talent, and have surpluses in their farm systems to go after the veterans to put them over the top. Their horizon of contention stretches out several years. Ours is cloudier, and if you only make yourself relevant for a couple of months, all the casual fans who have come out of the woodwork will head right back into it when the team is mediocre again without building a new generation of fan dom on which to expand the economics on which the Jays often flounder.

I'm going to enjoy the next several weeks, rooting for the team like crazy, but like some of us here, I don't think the level the team is at this minute can carry over to the next couple of seasons unless there are fundamental changes in how Rogers views funding its baseball team. And no, I don't think a two month surge in ticket sales and ratings is going to change anything, because spending even a few million dollars more last season could have made the world of difference, too. It made a lot of sense, and yet the owner stuck to its budget as if it was the literal word of the Almighty.

[Dennis 37]

http://www.minorleagueball.com/2008/1/8/105838/2139

Take a look at that list of our top prospects from seven years ago ago, take the best eleven ( with hindsight ) and tell me you wouldnt trade them for the players we've gotten over the past year ( price only real rental) and a chance at doing something this year and potentially beyond.

AA still kept many young controllable peices that make a major run over the next several years sustainable ( Pompey, Alford, stroman, Sanchez, osuana, Reid...)

The list from seven years ago is a list of JP Ricciardi's prospects. The fact that he was a miserably bad drafter is well known, and renders moot any comparison to the players we actually traded...our farm system was utterly horrific. There are just three players there that Sickels rated above C-level; by comparison, there were eleven such ratings for the 2015 edition, and that was after trading a couple away.

Use a different year, get a much different result. Take 2012...the best eleven listed would be something like D'Arnaud, Syndergaard, Hutchison, Osuna, Gose, Marisnick, Sanchez, Hechevarria, DeSclafani, Wojciechowski, and one's preference of Musgrove/Nicolino/Nolin/Perez occupying the final spot (or Yan Gomes, who was in the system but didn't make the cut).

I'll give you a different perspective. I watched, listened to, or attended almost every game from 1984 to 1994. When Interbrew bought Labatts and didn't have the brains to realize the whole point of the Blue Jays was to break even and sell beer, they imposed austerity on the Jays which in large part stayed in place until this recent splurge by Rogers. Interbrew's austerity decimated the roster and caused me to spend my time elsewhere. Since 1995 to the present I might have watched 5 games/per year and attended none. Since the trades I have watched and or listened to every game. To get me back a splash had to be made, an obvious commitment to fans that this team is not just like numerous Maple Leaf teams that were just happy to exist in mediocrity. By the way the Leafs lost me a long time ago as well and need to show me a lot more than what they have done so far to get me back. The splash has now been made and they have my attention. I fully recognize that this short term success may mean a few years of restocking and lesser successes, but what I now know is that when the assets are all lined up and there is an opportunity for great success the Blue Jays will make the leap. This is what I have been waiting for, and this is what will have me back as a fan, not just in the good times, but also for the inevitable rebuilding, as I will be confident I will not be wasting my time, that the team is not satisfied being on the treadmill.

[I_Like_Dirt]

I dunno, dagger. The one thing that was repeatable, though, was middling seasons at about .500 ball. For decade after decade. I'm not convinced this was a good or bad idea just yet but I'm willing to watch things play out. If the Jays do win the WS, this was easily worth it - the odds of winning the ws or even being a regular playoff team are so low and Rogers wanting hype every so often kills long rebuilds anyway. Something less and things get muddier.

[Schad]

While I appreciate the perspective, we heard a lot of similar things from people in the offseason preceding 2013. Whatever came next, the financial commitment and desire to really win had rekindled their interest, and they were here for the long haul. When the results failed to match the intent, all but a few were gone by the time June rolled around.

By no means am I doubting your sincerity; there are myriad reasons why fans have drifted away, some have and will return, and a playoff berth may further increase that staying power. More though will find reasons to depart again when results dip; justified as protest because Rogers didn't up payroll to their liking, or owing to the life commitments that make baseball a difficult game to follow consistently, etc. All perfectly reasonable, but it's hard to build a generation of Jays fans two months of excitement at a time.