Higher peak Derrick Rose or Chauncey Billups?

RSCD3_ · Post #1 » by **RSCD3_** » Sun Aug 9, 2015 1:25 am

Saw the other thread and was wondering how Mr. big shot stacks up at his peak vs the former MVP.

LJM · Post #2 » by **LJM** » Sun Aug 9, 2015 3:38 am

Billups was a gamer in his late 20's.

Post #3 » by **nate33** » Sun Aug 9, 2015 4:06 am

I gotta go with Rose here. Perhaps Rose didn't deserve the MVP, but he was legitimately a top 5 or 6 player that year. Rose averaged 35 and 12 per 100 possessions compared to BIllups' 28 and 13. Billups was much more efficient, but he could afford to be because he played on a team with 3 other All Stars. Rose had to carry his team offensively.

Billups is one of the more underrated players of all time, and I'd easily take his career over Rose's or even his 5-year peak over Rose's; but I think Rose's MVP year was better than any of Billups' years.

sixerswillrule · Post #4 » by **sixerswillrule** » Sun Aug 9, 2015 2:41 pm

nate33 wrote:I gotta go with Rose here. Perhaps Rose didn't deserve the MVP, but he was legitimately a top 5 or 6 player that year. Rose averaged 35 and 12 per 100 possessions compared to BIllups' 28 and 13. Billups was much more efficient, but he could afford to be because he played on a team with 3 other All Stars. Rose had to carry his team offensively.

Billups is one of the more underrated players of all time, and I'd easily take his career over Rose's or even his 5-year peak over Rose's; but I think Rose's MVP year was better than any of Billups' years.

Peak Billups may have been 07-08, when Ben wasn't even on the Pistons anymore (and he was a defensive player anyway). All the numbers show that Billups was by far the most important offensive player on that team. His supporting cast was comparable with Rose's.

Winsome Gerbil · Post #5 » by **Winsome Gerbil** » Sun Aug 9, 2015 3:00 pm

Peak? Well I guess Rose has nothing else, but last time I checked he peaked out as league MVP, which is a full degree above Chauncey's best.

mischievous · Post #6 » by **mischievous** » Sun Aug 9, 2015 3:00 pm

Agree with Nate33, Rose may not have deserved mvp and certainly wasnt the best player or even top 3, but he was a superstar and in the 5-7 range, Billups never reached borderline top 5 level and mvp status.

LJM · Post #7 » by **LJM** » Sun Aug 9, 2015 3:44 pm

Was Jimmy Jackson a Superstar because he put up better stats?

RSCD3_ · Post #8 » by **RSCD3_** » Sun Aug 9, 2015 3:46 pm

mischievous wrote:Agree with Nate33, Rose may not have deserved mvp and certainly wasnt the best player or even top 3, but he was a superstar and in the 5-7 range, Billups never reached borderline top 5 level and mvp status.

Chauncey was 5th in MVP voting in 2006.

Colbinii · Post #9 » by **Colbinii** » Sun Aug 9, 2015 4:35 pm

LJM wrote:Was Jimmy Jackson a Superstar because he put up better stats?

Are you comparing Jackson to Rose... :crazy:

Since you LOVE basic statistics, like you said in the Drexler/CP3 thread, I don't know why you are now switching how you judge the players, unless of course it is so your own bias holds up.

Rose has better stats than Billups, so he has to have the better peak, right? I am just applying your logic from the Drexler/CP3 thread. Rose is also more athletic than Billups, so he has to have the better peak, right?

mischievous · Post #10 » by **mischievous** » Sun Aug 9, 2015 4:37 pm

RSCD3_ wrote:
mischievous wrote:Agree with Nate33, Rose may not have deserved mvp and certainly wasnt the best player or even top 3, but he was a superstar and in the 5-7 range, Billups never reached borderline top 5 level and mvp status.

Chauncey was 5th in MVP voting in 2006.

And this means what in a vacuum? Finishing 5th in mvp voting isn't some grand accomplishment, generally there are only 3 or 4 serious mvp candidates then after that there just have to be some that fill out the lower spots.

sixerswillrule · Post #11 » by **sixerswillrule** » Sun Aug 9, 2015 5:43 pm

mischievous wrote:
RSCD3_ wrote:
mischievous wrote:Agree with Nate33, Rose may not have deserved mvp and certainly wasnt the best player or even top 3, but he was a superstar and in the 5-7 range, Billups never reached borderline top 5 level and mvp status.

Chauncey was 5th in MVP voting in 2006.

And this means what in a vacuum? Finishing 5th in mvp voting isn't some grand accomplishment, generally there are only 3 or 4 serious mvp candidates then after that there just have to be some that fill out the lower spots.

I think he's saying that it could be argued that Billups was in the 5-7 range just like Rose.

CaliBullsFan · Post #12 » by **CaliBullsFan** » Sun Aug 9, 2015 7:00 pm

Its simple (injuries aside obviously) you replace Rose with BIllups on the Pistons they win 60+ every single year and get at least 3 chips. You replace Rose with Billups on the Bulls they are a middling 4 or 5 seed in the East

SactoKingsFan · Post #13 » by **SactoKingsFan** » Sun Aug 9, 2015 7:18 pm

CaliBullsFan wrote:Its simple (injuries aside obviously) you replace Rose with BIllups on the Pistons they win 60+ every single year and get at least 3 chips. You replace Rose with Billups on the Bulls they are a middling 4 or 5 seed in the East

How would they win 60+ every year and win 3 titles with Rose? Billups' skill-set fits better on those Pistons teams, and there's no reason to think Rose would be a comparable leader or playoff performer.

ThunderDan9 · Post #14 » by **ThunderDan9** » Sun Aug 9, 2015 7:25 pm

SKF_85 wrote:
CaliBullsFan wrote:Its simple (injuries aside obviously) you replace Rose with BIllups on the Pistons they win 60+ every single year and get at least 3 chips. You replace Rose with Billups on the Bulls they are a middling 4 or 5 seed in the East

How would they win 60+ every year and win 3 titles with Rose? Billups' skill-set fits better on those Pistons teams, and there's no reason to think Rose would be a comparable leader or playoff performer.

I don't care about skill-set and fit too much when the two players aren't in the same class as basketball players.

Cyrusman122000 · Post #15 » by **Cyrusman122000** » Sun Aug 9, 2015 7:43 pm

i'll just say this. Rose may have peaked higher, but i'd gladly take Billups from 04-09 over Rose from 10-15 even if he wasn't injured. Chauncy was just such a great leader, floor general, clutch, such high Basketball IQ, his impact was underrated, and under appreciated IMO. One of my favorite PGs

SactoKingsFan · Post #16 » by **SactoKingsFan** » Sun Aug 9, 2015 8:12 pm

ThunderDan9 wrote:
SKF_85 wrote:
CaliBullsFan wrote:Its simple (injuries aside obviously) you replace Rose with BIllups on the Pistons they win 60+ every single year and get at least 3 chips. You replace Rose with Billups on the Bulls they are a middling 4 or 5 seed in the East

How would they win 60+ every year and win 3 titles with Rose? Billups' skill-set fits better on those Pistons teams, and there's no reason to think Rose would be a comparable leader or playoff performer.

I don't care about skill-set and fit too much when the two players aren't in the same class as basketball players.

Why do you think peak Rose was that much better than peak Billups? Rose was one of the worst MVPs in NBA history (top 5-10 player at best). A good top 5-10 case can be made for peak Billups who was arguably the more impactful player, had more of an all around game, higher BBIQ and performed better during the PS.

LJM · Post #17 » by **LJM** » Sun Aug 9, 2015 8:23 pm

Colbinii wrote:
LJM wrote:Was Jimmy Jackson a Superstar because he put up better stats?

Are you comparing Jackson to Rose...

Since you LOVE basic statistics, like you said in the Drexler/CP3 thread, I don't know why you are now switching how you judge the players, unless of course it is so your own bias holds up.

Rose has better stats than Billups, so he has to have the better peak, right? I am just applying your logic from the Drexler/CP3 thread. Rose is also more athletic than Billups, so he has to have the better peak, right?

I'm sorry, didn't I say I look at Winning as one of the top factors. Also I think Billups is more durable. Also 1 season of chucking stats isn't anything the same as a complete 12-15 year career of pretty amazing stats.

Billups is a much better shooter from anywhere on the court over rose. Also Billups was a smarter player and knew how to string out doubles and traps to gain an advantage underneath with great passing. Billups was very clutch aswell. And he just played more as a team. That was a team in Detriot those years. Can't really say the same about the Bulls over the last 5 years eventhough they've had good players on the roster.

Also Billups is a far better defender.

Post #18 » by **Quotatious** » Sun Aug 9, 2015 8:49 pm

Pretty close, but I'd give Billups the edge due to his superior defense and portability. Also, the way Billups transformed the Nuggets upon his arrival, proves that he had a tremendous leadership ability.

Billups just wasn't flashy or a "traditional" star, because he wasn't a volume scorer (so the polar opposite of Rose), but he was a pretty complete player (even on offense, he did several things better than Rose, such as shooting, posting up or being a floor general). He was the best or second best player on teams that won 50+ games in 8 consecutive seasons, and made conference finals for 7 consecutive seasons. That's really impressive.

RxMidnight · Post #19 » by **RxMidnight** » Sun Aug 9, 2015 9:51 pm

I think people are underestimating peak Billups here.

Chauncey '07-08: 23.6 PER, 13.5 WS, 6.1 BPM, 5.2 VORP, 127 ORTG, 107 DRTG
Derrick '10-11: 23.5 PER, 13.1 WS, 5.9 BPM, 6.0 VORP, 113 ORTG, 103 DRTG

I still voted for Rose because he had a heavier burden, but I think the fact that Rose won MVP makes the gap between the 2 seem further than it really was.

Keller61 · Post #20 » by **Keller61** » Sun Aug 9, 2015 11:01 pm

Cyrusman122000 wrote:i'll just say this. Rose may have peaked higher, but i'd gladly take Billups from 04-09 over Rose from 10-15 even if he wasn't injured. Chauncy was just such a great leader, floor general, clutch, such high Basketball IQ, his impact was underrated, and under appreciated IMO. One of my favorite PGs

Rose didn't get a chance to peak. If he was never injured, I highly doubt 2011 would have been his best season. He looked more mature in 2012 in terms of floor general skills before he tore his ACL.

Better Peak