Higher peak Derrick Rose or Chauncey Billups?

bigboi · Post #21 » by **bigboi** » Mon Aug 10, 2015 12:05 am

Rose not even close

sixerswillrule · Post #22 » by **sixerswillrule** » Mon Aug 10, 2015 1:01 am

Keller61 wrote:
Cyrusman122000 wrote:i'll just say this. Rose may have peaked higher, but i'd gladly take Billups from 04-09 over Rose from 10-15 even if he wasn't injured. Chauncy was just such a great leader, floor general, clutch, such high Basketball IQ, his impact was underrated, and under appreciated IMO. One of my favorite PGs

Rose didn't get a chance to peak. If he was never injured, I highly doubt 2011 would have been his best season. He looked more mature in 2012 in terms of floor general skills before he tore his ACL.

Everyone has a peak. 2011 was Rose's peak. Whether he could've had a higher peak is a different story.

sixerswillrule · Post #23 » by **sixerswillrule** » Mon Aug 10, 2015 1:03 am

RxMidnight wrote:I think people are underestimating peak Billups here.

Chauncey '07-08: 23.6 PER, 13.5 WS, 6.1 BPM, 5.2 VORP, 127 ORTG, 107 DRTG
Derrick '10-11: 23.5 PER, 13.1 WS, 5.9 BPM, 6.0 VORP, 113 ORTG, 103 DRTG

I still voted for Rose because he had a heavier burden, but I think the fact that Rose won MVP makes the gap between the 2 seem further than it really was.

Their supporting casts were similar, the main difference being that Noah and Boozer didn't play the full season. Very close otherwise.

JordansBulls · Post #24 » by **JordansBulls** » Mon Aug 10, 2015 1:03 am

mischievous wrote:Agree with Nate33, Rose may not have deserved mvp and certainly wasnt the best player or even top 3, but he was a superstar and in the 5-7 range, Billups never reached borderline top 5 level and mvp status.

Rose clearly deserved MVP and was a top 3-5 player in the league.

Post #25 » by **PaulieWal** » Mon Aug 10, 2015 1:14 am

JordansBulls wrote:
mischievous wrote:Agree with Nate33, Rose may not have deserved mvp and certainly wasnt the best player or even top 3, but he was a superstar and in the 5-7 range, Billups never reached borderline top 5 level and mvp status.

Rose clearly deserved MVP and was a top 3-5 player in the league.

Rose was barely a top 7 player that year. He lost with HCA and got locked down by LeBron hard.

He himself admitted how LeBron locked him down in case your memory is failing you:

"It's extremely hard where a 6-8 guy can easily defend you."

Some more data to refresh your memory:

After going 0-for-5 from the floor with a turnover when guarded by LeBron James in Game 4, Derrick Rose struggled against him once again Thursday, going 1-for-10 with two turnovers in Game 5. Rose shot 6.3 percent from the floor in the series when defended by James, lowest among any player that defended him on five or more plays.

JordansBulls · Post #26 » by **JordansBulls** » Mon Aug 10, 2015 1:22 am

PaulieWal wrote:
JordansBulls wrote:
mischievous wrote:Agree with Nate33, Rose may not have deserved mvp and certainly wasnt the best player or even top 3, but he was a superstar and in the 5-7 range, Billups never reached borderline top 5 level and mvp status.

Rose clearly deserved MVP and was a top 3-5 player in the league.

Rose was barely a top 7 player that year. He lost with HCA and got locked down by LeBron hard.

Rose was the best player in the league according to Jon Barry that season. I don't he was the best as it was Dirk, but he was clearly a top 3-5 player for sure. And Lebron didn't hold Rose, he guarded him maybe a total of 3-4 plays for the series. Shawn Marion singlehandedly locked down Lebron though. Not sure why you bringing up Lebron though here.

Post #27 » by **PaulieWal** » Mon Aug 10, 2015 1:25 am

JordansBulls wrote:
PaulieWal wrote:
JordansBulls wrote:Rose clearly deserved MVP and was a top 3-5 player in the league.

Rose was barely a top 7 player that year. He lost with HCA and got locked down by LeBron hard.

Rose was the best player in the league according to Jon Barry that season. I don't he was the best as it was Dirk, but he was clearly a top 3-5 player for sure. And Lebron didn't hold Rose, he guarded him maybe a total of 3-4 plays for the series. Shawn Marion singlehandedly locked down Lebron though. Not sure why you bringing up Lebron though here.

Because Rose being a top 3 player that season is pure nonsense which has no merit at all.

RSCD3_ · Post #28 » by **RSCD3_** » Mon Aug 10, 2015 1:40 am

PaulieWal wrote:
JordansBulls wrote:
mischievous wrote:Agree with Nate33, Rose may not have deserved mvp and certainly wasnt the best player or even top 3, but he was a superstar and in the 5-7 range, Billups never reached borderline top 5 level and mvp status.

Rose clearly deserved MVP and was a top 3-5 player in the league.

Rose was barely a top 7 player that year. He lost with HCA and got locked down by LeBron hard.

He himself admitted how LeBron locked him down in case your memory is failing you:

"It's extremely hard where a 6-8 guy can easily defend you."

Some more data to refresh your memory:
After going 0-for-5 from the floor with a turnover when guarded by LeBron James in Game 4, Derrick Rose struggled against him once again Thursday, going 1-for-10 with two turnovers in Game 5. Rose shot 6.3 percent from the floor in the series when defended by James, lowest among any player that defended him on five or more plays.

The series in case anyone wants to compate

Rose in 2011 ECF
23.4 PPG on 43.6 TS%
6.6 APG (34.2 AST%/12.2 TOV%)
94.4 Offensive Rating

Vs.

Billups in 06 ECF
18.0 PPG on 52.3 TS%
7.2 APG (35.5 AST%/11.2 TOV%)
111.2 ORTG

Billups in 08 ECF
16.0 PPG on 55.9 TS%
5.3 APG (31.5 AST%/7.3 TOV%)
119.4 ORTG

Billups in 09 WCF
18.0 PPG on 57.9 TS%
6.2 APG (24.7 AST/12.9 TOV%)
118.2 ORTG

theonlyclutch · Post #29 » by **theonlyclutch** » Mon Aug 10, 2015 1:40 am

JordanBulls, since you love WS as a metric:

Billups was 3rd in WS and 2nd in WS/48 in '06, Rose was 10th in WS/48 and 5th in WS in '11, how does this support Rose as a better player?

Keller61 · Post #30 » by **Keller61** » Mon Aug 10, 2015 1:50 am

Quotatious wrote:Pretty close, but I'd give Billups the edge due to his superior defense and portability. Also, the way Billups transformed the Nuggets upon his arrival, proves that he had a tremendous leadership ability.

Billups just wasn't flashy or a "traditional" star, because he wasn't a volume scorer (so the polar opposite of Rose), but he was a pretty complete player (even on offense, he did several things better than Rose, such as shooting, posting up or being a floor general). He was the best or second best player on teams that won 50+ games in 8 consecutive seasons, and made conference finals for 7 consecutive seasons. That's really impressive.

Billups certainly had an impressive career, but I don't see how any of his individual seasons were more impressive than averaging 25/8 while leading a team to 62 wins without any other all-stars on the team (and big injuries to multiple starters).

I also don't think Billups' superior defense is that big a deal in this comparison. Rose certainly didn't prevent the Bulls from having the league's best defense; in fact, his ability to carry defensive-oriented lineups on offense probably helped enable it.

CaliBullsFan · Post #31 » by **CaliBullsFan** » Mon Aug 10, 2015 3:47 am

Billups was never more than a #2 option leaving Rip miscast as a #1. I do give Billups credit for being an excellent closer but it just so happens that Rose is a legendary closer.

theonlyclutch · Post #32 » by **theonlyclutch** » Mon Aug 10, 2015 4:31 am

Rip being "miscast" as a #1 option has the Pistons:
-Ranked 4th, 6th, 6th on O
-Winning 64, 53 & 59 wins

from 06-08.

So either Rip is actually a really good #1 (unlikely), or Billups is actually the efficient ringleader of a multipolar offense that is clearly working very well despite rather bare offensive talent (old Sheed and Rip aren't great offensive talents by any means)...

BullBearBidness · Post #33 » by **BullBearBidness** » Mon Aug 10, 2015 5:26 pm

This thread reeks of Agenda

MrBigShot · Post #34 » by **MrBigShot** » Mon Aug 10, 2015 5:39 pm

Cyrusman122000 wrote:i'll just say this. Rose may have peaked higher, but i'd gladly take Billups from 04-09 over Rose from 10-15 even if he wasn't injured. Chauncy was just such a great leader, floor general, clutch, such high Basketball IQ, his impact was underrated, and under appreciated IMO. One of my favorite PGs

This is the answer, QFT. My username is literally Chauncey's nickname, but I cannot deny from a pure talent standpoint Rose has the edge. Doesn't mean I'd take home over Chauncey, because with Chauncey I'm getting a leader and an elite game manager who will hold the locker room together and hold everyone to a standard.

It's no coincidence that the Nuggets made it to the WCF (and put up a decent fight against the eventual champ Lakers) the year Chauncey arrived in Denver. Prior to that they had Iverson (a player who's game is very similar to Rose, high volume scorer) and Melo, and yet they were a perennial 1st round exit team. Swap out Iverson for Billups and they have the most success they would have in near a decade. And it's no coincidence that the Pistons completely fell apart after he was traded...

And by the way, Rose has never had a playoffs as good as Chauncey's in 08-09. Rose may have the edge in pure raw numbers, but in terms of efficiency and impact that post season run is better than any of Rose's.

Keller61 · Post #35 » by **Keller61** » Mon Aug 10, 2015 6:00 pm

sixerswillrule wrote:
Keller61 wrote:
Cyrusman122000 wrote:i'll just say this. Rose may have peaked higher, but i'd gladly take Billups from 04-09 over Rose from 10-15 even if he wasn't injured. Chauncy was just such a great leader, floor general, clutch, such high Basketball IQ, his impact was underrated, and under appreciated IMO. One of my favorite PGs

Rose didn't get a chance to peak. If he was never injured, I highly doubt 2011 would have been his best season. He looked more mature in 2012 in terms of floor general skills before he tore his ACL.

Everyone has a peak. 2011 was Rose's peak. Whether he could've had a higher peak is a different story.

Well my point is that it's ridiculous to say that you'd take 04-09 Billups over an uninjured 10-15 Rose without knowing how good Rose would have become. Rose might have had multiple rings by now if he had never gotten hurt.

Post #36 » by **PaulieWal** » Mon Aug 10, 2015 6:32 pm

Keller61 wrote:
sixerswillrule wrote:
Keller61 wrote:
Rose didn't get a chance to peak. If he was never injured, I highly doubt 2011 would have been his best season. He looked more mature in 2012 in terms of floor general skills before he tore his ACL.

Everyone has a peak. 2011 was Rose's peak. Whether he could've had a higher peak is a different story.

Well my point is that it's ridiculous to say that you'd take 04-09 Billups over an uninjured 10-15 Rose without knowing how good Rose would have become. Rose might have had multiple rings by now if he had never gotten hurt.

In what universe is Rose winning multiple rings? I don't see them getting past the Heat (Cavs last year) and even if they did by some miracle the Bulls did they would lose to any of the past 4 WC winners.

Keller61 · Post #37 » by **Keller61** » Mon Aug 10, 2015 6:50 pm

PaulieWal wrote:
Keller61 wrote:
sixerswillrule wrote:
Everyone has a peak. 2011 was Rose's peak. Whether he could've had a higher peak is a different story.

Well my point is that it's ridiculous to say that you'd take 04-09 Billups over an uninjured 10-15 Rose without knowing how good Rose would have become. Rose might have had multiple rings by now if he had never gotten hurt.

In what universe is Rose winning multiple rings? I don't see them getting past the Heat (Cavs last year) and even if they did by some miracle the Bulls did they would lose to any of the past 4 WC winners.

Well the 2012 Bulls were an elite team that was still young and on the rise. Noah and Gibson became better players, they added Butler, and Rose would have gotten better/more mature. Plus, if they did win the title in 2012 (which they probably had a decent chance of doing, considering the Heat needed 7 games to beat the Celtics), they probably would have added ring-chasers.

BullBearBidness · Post #38 » by **BullBearBidness** » Mon Aug 10, 2015 6:52 pm

Bulls lose in '12 to the Thunder? Doubtful.

You've got peak Rose, prime Noah/Deng/Taj, barely past-prime Boozer, Korver VS WB/Harden/Ibaka/Durant (all of whom not nearly as good as they are now, especially Ibaka/Harden). Essentially, young pups vs a prime contender with a top 10 offense and #1 defense.

Stop over-rating the West. Yes it's tough out there, but no need to embellish. The '11 and '12 Bulls, for example, did better vs. the West than the East, believe it or not. They also had the best record vs top 10 teams, I can think (might have been top 5).

RSCD3_ · Post #39 » by **RSCD3_** » Mon Aug 10, 2015 6:53 pm

PaulieWal wrote:
Keller61 wrote:
sixerswillrule wrote:
Everyone has a peak. 2011 was Rose's peak. Whether he could've had a higher peak is a different story.

Well my point is that it's ridiculous to say that you'd take 04-09 Billups over an uninjured 10-15 Rose without knowing how good Rose would have become. Rose might have had multiple rings by now if he had never gotten hurt.

In what universe is Rose winning multiple rings? I don't see them getting past the Heat (Cavs last year) and even if they did by some miracle the Bulls did they would lose to any of the past 4 WC winners.

Best chance would be for them in 2012.

With bosh's injury and assuming they beat Boston (as they had a much better SRS that year and I think most would have favored them at the time) I think they could have capitalized on that and made the finals. The thunder would be just as green as them so I would give the bulls a pretty good chance. 35-40% of winning vs the thunder

BasketballFan7 · Post #40 » by **BasketballFan7** » Mon Aug 10, 2015 6:58 pm

Thunder being weak is revisionist history. They beat veteran teams, including the Spurs who were rolling through everybody. The Thunder were favored in the finals if i recall.

The Bulls chances of beating a better Heat team, and THEN a great Thunder team, would have been quite slim.

Better Peak