Suns Offseason Thread 4: Where's Terrence Williams?

[bwgood77]

I'm ok to go with a better offensive option since we have upgraded our front court defensively. But I'm not sure Warren is ready to be a starter yet. Perhaps we go with Weems at the 3.

I think a reasonable expectation would be that Warren earn the starting job around mid season (like Len did) if he is ready, but if for some reason things are working great and we are winning with Warren coming off the bench for a spark of offense, that's fine with me as long as PJ is doing well.

I don't think you want to start a guy too soon and then have to change your mind because he is not quite up the task. That destroys a player's confidence. Keep them hungry and working hard.

[Sunsdeuce]

This is Adrian Peterson situation 2.0. At the end of the day, markieff is under contract, he has no leverage.

[bwgood77]

Defensively he isn't. Currently we can put Tucker on 2-5 positions, and he does a decent job on all those. He doesn't take a lot of shots, so he doesn't take the ball out of other player's hands. Because he worked on his shot, he provides a needed spacing that Warren just doesn't, at this time.

Plus I really think Warren will do well coming off the bench, and provide scoring, while either Bledsoe or Knight rest.

I like Tucker but I would rather more of an offensive punch to start the games for us. I guess we'll see how much they're worked on their game over the summer. I just remember us struggling to score down the stretch last year.

I'm assuming Knight will be closer to his Milw scoring than his brief time with us. Unless Warren has really worked on his three point shot, but chose not to show it in the SL, we lose the spacing we need for our two guards. If the defense isn't as needed as the offense, we could always bring Warren early. I think Jeff will start Tucker.

Defensively I don't want to wait until the opposing team's best wing to get into a rhythm shooting, and then try and put PJ on him later. Getting 35 points in a quarter would be great, but giving up 36 to 40, would not.

Yes, there is a 95% chance Tucker will start, regardless of this board's bitching about it. But like I said in my last post, a reasonable expectation would be that Warren earn the job mid season, kind of like Len did last year. I know you like Tucker, and I, for the most part, like him too unless he is trying to do a one man fast break.

But Warren NEEDS to earn the job this season unless we want to re-sign Tucker, or pick up his option or whatever the case with the next year on his contract is. Warren is getting better on D, but he's definitely behind Tucker and probably behind Weems.

I agree with letsgosuns about Warren vs Tucker in some respects, but Tucker is valuable because we NEED a SOLID wing defender in the western conference with guys like Harden, Durant, Thompson, etc, especially with our two guards. Warren needs to work on two things a ton. The three ball and defense.

In a perfect world, Brandon Knight is 6'7 and a defensive stud, and it's not a huge issue to just start TJ. But due to spacing and the need for premier wing defense, particularly in the west, makes PJ valuable.

Edit: And by the way, this isn't an argument, it's an agreement.

[AtheJ415]

I wonder if Detroit would consider Tucker and Morris for Stanimal and salary filler.

[bwgood77]

Such an emotional board...

The reason we're not particularly afraid of going small is that the mid-range post-up is no longer a very effective weapon in today's game. If teams want to post Brandon Knight up from 15, let them. We'll design our offense to get buckets at the rim and from 3. That's why my main concern with a Bled/Knight/Warren/PJ/Chandler starting line-up isn't defense but rebounding and transition. If teams decide to pound the ball inside, they could slow our transition offense a la Cleveland in the finals and bury us on the glass. On offense, however, PJ/Mirza/Leuer can all stretch the floor, while Bled/TJ/Archie/Knight can penetrate, and Knight/Booker/Weems can shoot from the wings.

For better or worse, that's the direction the league is going. Not a ton of 4's who can punish that line-up. I wouldn't mind getting an extra 5 in case we want to try to match towers with towers (I have SA in mind). I think the Rockets, with Jones and D-Mo, present a problem in any case. But I'm okay with having PJ guard Griffin or even Z-Bo.

Really, chemistry is everything. Are we passing the ball? Playing with energy? Trusting teammates? Those are the relevant questions. And that's why we should prefer going small to depending on a disgruntled Keef. Get picks, and either a back-up 1 or 5. We need mojo more than anything else.

Two things I disagree with you on.

The reason the post-up game is not effective in today's game is because only a hand full of players actually know how to post up. Duncan is still bringing the Spurs championships and its largely due to his post game and post presence. Memphis is a great low post team and they can be very dominate at times. The post game is a lost art. It opens up SOOOO much for other players, if you have an effective post player. An effective post player causes double teams which opens up easy shots for other players. The NBA is a cycle league. It goes in cycles, once players get back to the basics (the post game) it will go back to a slow down tempo. Again its not that the post game isnt effective, its that players are not taught to post anymore. Amare is a perfect example, he was cluesless in the post game. Even if the post player is 10-15 feet away from the basket, it opens so much if he has to be double teamed. Everyone wants to do face-up jumpers and cross overs now and shoot.

The post game is a lost art due to a combination of things, the euro-trash influence, the one and down college kids, the straight from high school kids, and lack of basketball experience.

Also, chemistry is not that important and in fact is highly overrated. Kobe and shaq had horrible chemistry. Talent wins games. As long as players have talent and can get along on the court and know their roles thats really all that matters. You know what "great chemistry" gets you with an average roster? It gets you 45-48 wins. It gets you a feel good story, while teams with great talent get championships.

I think both sides of this debate our solid. The key is what gets you the best true shooting %. Now that there are more better 3 pt shooters, unless you are a PREMIERE post player, you will never keep up with Kyle Korver or Steph Curry shooting 45%+ from 3. You'd have to be either converting at 67%+ on posts or passing to a 45%+ 3 point shooter.

It simply boils down to math, which is frustrating for the old school players and GMs, because the MIT guys are now forcing many teams to move out of the post game because focusing on three pointers is more productive IF you have good 3 pt shooters. One problem we have is that we don't really have many great 3 pt shooters or any great post players so whatever Hornacek gets out of this team will be interesting. Most WC teams have one or the other or both. That's why two years ago it was shocking.

Ideally you want all the skills. A big who is a playmaker, can post up, stretch, etc. Not many of those around, but I'm guessing five years from now, there will be.

[Saberestar]

Markieff Morris is the most tenured member of the Suns roster but the four-year Phoenix player wants that to change.
He wants out.
Morris made his wishes clear Tuesday when he told The Philadelphia Inquirer that he does not expect to play for the Suns this season, if his wish is met.

"One thing for sure, I am not going to be there," Morris told the Inquirer after working out Tuesday with his twin, Marcus, in Philadelphia suburb King of Prussia.
"... I am not going to be there at all. That's just what it is."

http://www.azcentral.com/story/sports/nba/suns/2015/08/11/markieff-morris-wants-out--phoenix/31511557/

It's over.

[Sunsdeuce]

One thing for sure, I am a complete scumbag,” Morris said Tuesday after a morning workout at Competitive Edge Sports in King of Prussia.

http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/sixers/20150812_Markieff_Morris_demands_trade_from_Suns.html#o4xBQftxEjaObkE8.99

It's over.

Fixed

[DirtyDez]

This is Adrian Peterson situation 2.0. At the end of the day, markieff is under contract, he has no leverage.

AP dropped his nuts and got his guaranteed money though. Kieff doesn't have near the pull. Can't wait to see how McD handles this.

Dis gon b gud.gif

[King4Day]

Also not a good look on McD. That's two players that's wanted out within a calendar year, although this one is probably not his fault. I wonder if this would have any effect on how players see McD as a GM. Surely hope not

No way. Everyone around the league knows they're headcases. That's our biggest problem trading him.

Agreed. Not sure why people are putting this on McDonough. He did nothing wrong here. As we all know, it's a business. Why the Morris' wouldn't understand that the Suns would be better with Aldridge is beyond me.
They get in trouble with the law and it's not a DUI or drug charge (most common with NBA players). This was assault. They should have known the countdown had begun when this occurred.

McDonough is doing a fine job IMO. No GM is perfect and fans will freak if he were to go. Better to know what you have than to go into the unknown again and risk signing another Blanks.

[letsgosuns]

Markieff Morris is the most tenured member of the Suns roster but the four-year Phoenix player wants that to change.
He wants out.
Morris made his wishes clear Tuesday when he told The Philadelphia Inquirer that he does not expect to play for the Suns this season, if his wish is met.

"One thing for sure, I am not going to be there," Morris told the Inquirer after working out Tuesday with his twin, Marcus, in Philadelphia suburb King of Prussia.
"... I am not going to be there at all. That's just what it is."

http://www.azcentral.com/story/sports/nba/suns/2015/08/11/markieff-morris-wants-out--phoenix/31511557/

It's over.

Markieff also had this quote from Coro's article:

"If you are going to do something, do it," Markieff told the Inquirer. "The GM (McDonough), I've been there longer than him, the coaches, everybody. I've been there the longest, and I don't get the respect to be like, 'Yo Keef, we are going to trade your brother. You are our future power forward.' I'm the future power forward. I'm the premier player of the team. … That's just how business is done I guess."


He said he is the premier player on the team. The premier player?!? This guy is a lunatic. What a joke. 15 and 6 and you are the premiere player?

[Nando88]

Suspend him without pay. He plans on being the worst teammate and employee if he's not traded. Don't give in to this garbage .


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[bwgood77]

http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/sixers/20150812_Markieff_Morris_demands_trade_from_Suns.html

Biggest test of McDonough's tenure so far. If he calls Keef's bluff and gets him to buy in and they make the playoffs, success. If he trades him for equal or better value, success. If he gets outmaneuvered and has to trade him for a poopoo platter due entirely to circumstances of his own creation, that's a massive black mark. Very curious to see how this all plays out.

I'm not sure if this quote below is completely honest, but the twins seem like pretty straight shooters when they express their feelings, so I trust it

Of the latest deal, Markieff said he’s not disappointed that the Suns traded his brother to the Pistons, where he is likely to get more opportunities to succeed. But he is disappointed in how the twins were notified.

I think we've seen enough evidence now that if a trade is taking place, our FO NEEDS to have a little more tact and have someone talk to the player before they just hear about it in the news. I can understand how that would piss people off.

This may happen to a lot of new GMs. Guys like Pat Riley, or the people at the Spurs or other longstanding GMs are probably very tactful in communicating with players about trades. I work with a lot of Human Resources issues in my career and the communication of things is VERY IMPORTANT. The way people perceive things or receive communication about major changes can cause MAJOR assumptions, emotions and reactions. There needs to be careful strategy when delivering this news.

I trust McD in his negotiating with teams about trades, but I don't trust him with how to communicate the news to players. I don't even know if it is communicated and that is NOT a good thing.

But then again Ainge is notorious for saying a guy will NOT be traded and then trade him, so maybe that is his mojo. That KJ/Pierce/Allen sudden combo was like a once in a decade or more summer deal (yes, the Miami deal happened the next year) but that is still rare. I just hope he tries to treat people with respect when it comes to major life changes with trades. I know some here probably don't think about it, but suddenly getting traded when you have a home, life, maybe kids here, etc is a major change..yes it's part of the nba, but you should not hear about it on twitter. That's disrespectful.

It seems pretty apparent they heard on twitter or the news...not good. I think they need a player PR guy...to communicate McD's decisions in a massaged way to make the player feel like it is also a benefit to him (if that can be done and in Marcus' case it could have been).

[lilfishi22]

Also not a good look on McD. That's two players that's wanted out within a calendar year, although this one is probably not his fault. I wonder if this would have any effect on how players see McD as a GM. Surely hope not

No way. Everyone around the league knows they're headcases. That's our biggest problem trading him.

Agreed. Not sure why people are putting this on McDonough. He did nothing wrong here. As we all know, it's a business. Why the Morris' wouldn't understand that the Suns would be better with Aldridge is beyond me.
They get in trouble with the law and it's not a DUI or drug charge (most common with NBA players). This was assault. They should have known the countdown had begun when this occurred.

McDonough is doing a fine job IMO. No GM is perfect and fans will freak if he were to go. Better to know what you have than to go into the unknown again and risk signing another Blanks.

I specifically didn't put this one on McD but the fact is, two players who have found success with the Suns have now left on unhappy grounds. You can always justify why a player needs to be moved but it's still not a good look.

[Jdiddy701]

Couple things:

-I've said all offseason the Suns will not trade Markieff Morris.. definitely not the case anymore. Suns LOVE Markieff, but this is going to change their mind QUICK.
-Suns should have called Markieff and Marcus when the trade went down. No excuse from a front office to not do that. I really understand how they could be pissed about that. Also, having Bledsoe, Knight, and Tyson involved with Aldridge and future plans but Markieff no where around shows no respect for him. I see where he could be upset.
-Saying all that, Markieff and Marcus did this to themselves. If you're Markieff - the fans and the city against him, why would you want to stay in Phoenix? I seriously think social media ruined this.

[bwgood77]

This is Adrian Peterson situation 2.0. At the end of the day, markieff is under contract, he has no leverage.

I agree, and honestly, those sounded like Marcus' words. He could have said them to appease Marcus. Now Marcus knows his brother went public about wanting out, said he would be professional, expected to be traded, etc. Then if he is not traded we are stuck with "would be professional". I think if/when he gets back to the team and is separated from his brother, he will be the teammate everyone knows. He's suddenly not going to be a dick to his teammates who all seem to like him. He doesn't seem like a guy who would not play hard and hurt the team and disappoint his teammates. I'm not saying he doesn't want out, but if we don't find a reasonable trade for him, I think he will be professional, and potentially we just either trade him later or he blossoms more and gets over it and loves his teammates. That last part is a stretch, but this is without doubt probably his best opportunity to be a starter this year with super solid presence in the middle next to him. It would be ridiculously stupid not to make the most of that opportunity.

I think once he gets back, he will get one of these. (after seeing Qwigglez movie post I had to post one of my favorite movie scenes)

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOoJoTAXDPk[/youtube]

[tdjm]

Yeah, no matter how much you loathe the Morris twins and don't care about their individual plight, the fact that it has happened again and again and again is starting to get alarming. Making people feel valued and appreciated even when you intend to twist the knife is absolutely a skill. At some point, if he stays a GM, McDonough is going to have to proactively trade good players or fan favorites - not trade from a position of weakness or being blindsided, but actually trade valued, loved, and appreciated players to improve the team.

You can do that tactfully. There was a House episode way back in the day that touched on the fact that Dr. Wilson was so good at telling patients they had cancer that they would thank him when he told them. McD needs to take notes on that.

https://instagram.com/p/4rgdFns_q8/?taken-by=tgo_splitter

Here's the instagram picture Tiago Splitter put up after getting salary dumped for nothing but cap space by the Spurs. Some of this is probably definitely due to Tiago Splitter being an all around more reasonable and agreeable guy than the Morris twins, but at the same time he was probably treated in a manner that made him want to make this post, even if he was figuratively cast out into the cold. McDonough needs to start making sure his future breakups go more smoothly, and along lines like these.

I still don't especially care about any of these breakups, since the players are assets and the Suns are rebuilding (no matter how much Sarver wishes it were otherwise). It will be important down the line when (or if, at this rate) the Suns are actually competing. There is no harm in starting and getting that practice now.

[STEV13]

With this out in the mainstream, I feel like a trade is imminent. McD has addressed this before, can't find the exact quote but it was something along the lines of trading those who do not buy into the system and getting rid of selfish players. Clearly, Kieff ticks those boxes.

At the end of the day, we have a very competent GM and Kieff is on a pretty nice deal, I'm sure McD will try his best to find the best deal out there and if not, we still have leverage. This is a pretty tough FO, they will not allow the 'inmates to run the asyllum'.

[Frank Lee]

Markieff Morris is the most tenured member of the Suns roster but the four-year Phoenix player wants that to change.
He wants out.
Morris made his wishes clear Tuesday when he told The Philadelphia Inquirer that he does not expect to play for the Suns this season, if his wish is met.

"One thing for sure, I am not going to be there," Morris told the Inquirer after working out Tuesday with his twin, Marcus, in Philadelphia suburb King of Prussia.
"... I am not going to be there at all. That's just what it is."

http://www.azcentral.com/story/sports/nba/suns/2015/08/11/markieff-morris-wants-out--phoenix/31511557/

It's over.

Markieff also had this quote from Coro's article:

"If you are going to do something, do it," Markieff told the Inquirer. "The GM (McDonough), I've been there longer than him, the coaches, everybody. I've been there the longest, and I don't get the respect to be like, 'Yo Keef, we are going to trade your brother. You are our future power forward.' I'm the future power forward. I'm the premier player of the team. … That's just how business is done I guess."


He said he is the premier player on the team. The premier player?!? This guy is a lunatic. What a joke. 15 and 6 and you are the premiere player?

Um... I think McDuh said he was... or at least he a Bled were, during the Dragic departure. But yeah.... so much for the 'professional' handling KiefMo was displaying. He bomb shelled us. Dragic was just a little rata tat-tat, followed by apologies. Keif clearly was upset with the great dismantling of '15. Doubt we'll see any remorse here.

What a tough year for McDuh. Hope he is enjoyed his vacation.

[Mulhollanddrive]

There's always someone who we sell low on, and it's not even a new season yet!

Give it a year until Rich Paul sees weakness in our FO and convinces Bledsoe to want out to Cleveland. Then we get Thompson (we somehow pay him 18m), Shumpert and other scraps.

For that reason McDonough cannot trade Morris for anything other than a pure win trade.

[bwgood77]

What are people's thoughts on the possibilities of a trade like this taking place? viewtopic.php?f=9&t=1402969&p=44523858#p44523858