Rank the nets by position

[MrDollarBills]

This is why when people solely rely on stats to describe what goes on in games I roll my eyes. Jarrett Jack outplayed Deron Williams all season long yet the stats paint another picture. Eyeball test always will trump metrics to me, there isn't a stat for running away from the ball when things became intense like Deron did numerous times over the last two seasons.

[Paradise]

[quote="Paradise"]Lopez was 3rd in PnR scoring with a 24% frequency and FG% of 52.9. Only Davis and Vucevic were better. He also was 4th behind Jordan in cuts to the rim with a 16% frequency and 64% finishing rate. So, the majority of his points came off ball movement.

Defensively, Lopez allowed 42% on PnR coverage. Chandler allowed 45% and Jordan allowed 43%. On Post up defense, Lopez allowed 39.9% while Marc Gasol allowed 38.1%, Gobert with 38.3%, Chandler with 36%, Jordan with 40.4% and Whiteside with 47%.

You know, as I said, I tried to do my list based on "eye test" more or less based on an "ideal team fit", so I didn't really check stats. This was for fun. I knew some of those names would be controversial because we normally wouldn't look at some of those guys who 'aren't very talented at basketball' over a polished offensive guy like Lopez. So it was interesting to go check some advanced stats on them. I used these three other guys as comparison:

[img]http://i.imgur.com/sHUTi1K.jpg[/img]

[img]http://i.imgur.com/2c2b8OX.jpg[/img]

[img]http://i.imgur.com/LTV6v5f.jpg[/img]

[img]http://i.imgur.com/aXJhnv5.jpg[/img]

[img]http://i.imgur.com/jP2Vz7Z.jpg[/img]

The Nets defensive rating was slightly better without Lopez(104.6).

Defending Post Ups
Chandler 36.6
Gobert 38.3
Lopez 39.9
Whiteside 47.6%

If you notice those stats, Nowitzki is better than Lopez on the PnR(38.1%) and Post up defense(38.2%). That shocked me and made me laugh. It's just a reminder that we really need to look beyond stats and into what's happening in games.[/quote]

What does Dirk have to do with anything? In terms of those stats, Dirk would look better in PnR stats with Chandler, Wright playing alongside him.

You said that you value centers that can protect the rim, roll to the rim, stay with their man over offensive minded centers. That's perfectly fine to have that belief because I do as well but I just proved Lopez was in fact good in those areas. These same analytics are used by most front offices across the league to gauge players. You can't choose to ignore it when it goes against your opinion. The eye test is subjective. It's not something to rely on since it usually turns into a bias opinion. The eye test will tell you Carmelo looks like a Top 3 Small Forward when in fact, he's not.

I'm just saying Lopez isn't Al Jefferson or Greg Monroe. He holds his own in terms of post defense, PnR offense and rim protection which are the areas you prioritize.

[Dirk]

What does Dirk have to do with anything? In terms of those stats, Dirk would look better in PnR stats with Chandler, Wright playing alongside him.

You said that you value centers that can protect the rim, roll to the rim, stay with their man over offensive minded centers. That's perfectly fine to have that belief because I do as well but I just proved Lopez was in fact good in those areas. These same analytics are used by most front offices across the league to gauge players. You can't choose to ignore it when it goes against your opinion. The eye test is subjective. It's something to rely on since it usually turns into a bias opinion. The eye test will tell you Carmelo looks like a Top 3 Small Forward when in fact, he's not.

I'm just saying Lopez isn't Al Jefferson or Greg Monroe. He holds his own in terms of post defense, PnR offense and rim protection.

Nowitzki is called into this because he's a poor defender, yet somehow these stats favor him. I just brought it up because in essence we can't solely rely on numbers. But looking at the numbers, you see that those other guys(I must say Whiteside's numbers aren't as good as I would imagine) are effective on offense without touching the ball as much as Lopez. They're vastly superior rebounding. Lopez's slow feet stick out to me everytime I watch the Nets, he can't be left on an island like some other guys can.

[Paradise]

[quote="Paradise"]What does Dirk have to do with anything? In terms of those stats, Dirk would look better in PnR stats with Chandler, Wright playing alongside him.

You said that you value centers that can protect the rim, roll to the rim, stay with their man over offensive minded centers. That's perfectly fine to have that belief because I do as well but I just proved Lopez was in fact good in those areas. These same analytics are used by most front offices across the league to gauge players. You can't choose to ignore it when it goes against your opinion. The eye test is subjective. It's something to rely on since it usually turns into a bias opinion. The eye test will tell you Carmelo looks like a Top 3 Small Forward when in fact, he's not.

I'm just saying Lopez isn't Al Jefferson or Greg Monroe. He holds his own in terms of post defense, PnR offense and rim protection.

Nowitzki is called into this because he's a poor defender, yet somehow these stats favor him. I just brought it up because in essence we can't solely rely on numbers. But looking at the numbers, you see that those other guys(I must say Whiteside's numbers aren't as good as I would imagine) are effective on offense without touching the ball as much as Lopez. They're vastly superior rebounding. Lopez's slow feet stick out to me everytime I watch the Nets, he can't be left on an island like some other guys can.[/quote]
Well, Dirk is a poor defender. You just threw out one statistic that favored him. Everything else is a below average percentage he gives up on D. Leaving Lopez on an island with a quicker guard or forward defensively is something he can't do but how does that equate to him being unable to be any good at all aspects of defense? That's why the eye test is subjective. He held his own in all aspects of defense. It doesn't make him elite but he was good when compared to his peers.

[Trader_Joe]

Lopez was 3rd in PnR scoring with a 24% frequency and FG% of 52.9. Only Davis and Vucevic were better. He also was 4th behind Jordan in cuts to the rim with a 16% frequency and 64% finishing rate. So, the majority of his points came off ball movement.

Defensively, Lopez allowed 42% on PnR coverage. Chandler allowed 45% and Jordan allowed 43%. On Post up defense, Lopez allowed 39.9% while Marc Gasol allowed 38.1%, Gobert with 38.3%, Chandler with 36%, Jordan with 40.4% and Whiteside with 47%.

You know, as I said, I tried to do my list based on "eye test" more or less based on an "ideal team fit", so I didn't really check stats. This was for fun. I knew some of those names would be controversial because we normally wouldn't look at some of those guys who 'aren't very talented at basketball' over a polished offensive guy like Lopez. So it was interesting to go check some advanced stats on them. I used these three other guys as comparison:











The Nets defensive rating was slightly better without Lopez(104.6). Check out Utah's defense without Gobert, it's astonishing, they go from

Defending Post Ups
Chandler 36.6
Gobert 38.3
Lopez 39.9
Whiteside 47.6%

If you notice those stats, Nowitzki is better than Lopez on the PnR(38.1%) and Post up defense(38.2%). That shocked me and made me laugh. It's just a reminder that we really need to look beyond stats and into what's happening in games.

I'd be curious those stats post ASB.
Lopez was clearly not himself physically the first half of the season. He was coming off a major injury, had to relearn how to walk and hurt his back at one point. It also didn't help he wasn't being utilized well by Hollins and struggling with his confidence as a result.

[jeff1624]

This is why when people solely rely on stats to describe what goes on in games I roll my eyes. Jarrett Jack outplayed Deron Williams all season long yet the stats paint another picture. Eyeball test always will trump metrics to me, there isn't a stat for running away from the ball when things became intense like Deron did numerous times over the last two seasons.

But you're talking about individual play as where the eye test backed up the fact that the team was much worse when Jack was the PG.

[MrDollarBills]

Yeah, especially in those games where Jack was hitting big shots to keep us in the game or helped to win the game.

This narrative that Jack was out on the floor doing nothing is a flat out lie.

[Prokorov]

Yeah, especially in those games where Jack was hitting big shots to keep us in the game or helped to win the game.

This narrative that Jack was out on the floor doing nothing is a flat out lie.

jack had some big shots and some big games. but those were few and far between. his overall body of work was putrid.

I love his leadership. im glad we chose him over a better player who wasnt a leader and didnt play with effort. but jack was really poor last year. he had a nice 11 game stretch, outside of that he was bad. although i wont blame him, the guys around him were pretty awful and he was thrust into a role bigger then his ability

anytime you give a role guy starting minutes he is bound to see his play go south

[MrDollarBills]

Jack is a journeyman back up PG. He wasn't great, never has been great, and I never expected him to be great. But he was put into a position of need and big minutes because the starting PG sucked ball and he did the best that he could.

[Trader_Joe]

Jack is a journeyman back up PG. He wasn't great, never has been great, and I never expected him to be great. But he was put into a position of need and big minutes because the starting PG sucked ball and he did the best that he could.

And he's in that position again this year. That doesn't bode well for us.

[MrDollarBills]

Jack is a journeyman back up PG. He wasn't great, never has been great, and I never expected him to be great. But he was put into a position of need and big minutes because the starting PG sucked ball and he did the best that he could.

And he's in that position again this year. That doesn't bode well for us.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure it will get ugly at times this year.